VBU and mage chars

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Kugar
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Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Kugar »

The land of Illarion shall fall. All those who bared the power of lords shall be demoted to maggots. The holy gods shall pass forth a lesson to those who deem themselves more than a deity. Shall be the times of maggots.

Tis' the end.

Tis' the beginning.
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Quinasa
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Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Quinasa »

Kyre wrote:This is not encouraging to continue RPing your mage char.
So don't continue to RP your mage char then. :wink: I am of the opinion that certain characters would be unrealistic outside of Gobaith. Not every current character will fit into the new world, and so by trying to make them fit I think a lot of players will grow frustrated and lose interest. Rather than think we're all just going to be moving to a new place and everything will be the same, shouldn't everyone take a hard look at each of their characters and decide whether it would be fun or more trouble than it's worth to bring them along?

I've killed off characters before, both actually killing them off and leaving folks to wonder about their existence, and it isn't easy. I know what it's like to work on a character for years only to have no use for them anymore. But I think, in the case of the VBU, that will be necessary for some folks.

There WILL be things people don't like about the VBU. As Athian said, everyone is entitled to their respective opinions. Our goal is to present an enjoyable game-play experience that will keep new players and old players interested. Perhaps we can implement a board like we used to have here on the forums, a suggestions board, where people can post their complaints in a manner that won't disrupt the experiences of everyone else, or something of that nature. Perhaps, but perhaps not. Maybe people will just have to learn how to get over themselves and be happy with what they're given, because really, who wants to moderate a board where all people do is piss and moan?

On the topic of magic being implemented and when: I don't think anyone could have said it better than Grokk has above me. Eventually the magic system will be implemented, and in the interim your job as a player is to play your character to fit the world around you. There will be things you can influence and change in Illarion, and there will also be things you can't change - even with role play. The VBU is coming, and we're trying to make it as complete as we are able within the time constraints. There will be no going back at all in any respect. We either adapt and move forward, or we get left behind.
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Dyluck
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Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Dyluck »

Just a quick survey. What do you feel exactly is the greatest percieved obstacle for playing your mage characters while lacking actual spells? Is the the PvP aspect? The dungeon crawling aspect? The graphical effects? Or some other practical aspect?

I'm assuming it's mostly the PvP aspect, but I'm a little curious as to how often PvP occurs for mages these days? If it's mainly PvP, is it because you anticipate you will fight a lot? Or mostly self defence? Or just to back up your character's reputation as a "mage"? Or so you don't have to resort to weapons/melee? Or something else?
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Qeewee
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Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Qeewee »

Myself Id have to say "Or mostly self defence? Or just to back up your character's reputation as a "mage"" out of those things I suppose? Many mages would probably get instantly killed by everyone if they didn't have magic. Mine in particular, as well as many others, also has stats that are far from viable when it comes to using weapons, and some might even have an RP reason not to, so weapons is often out of the question unless you're someone like Athian, and even then you won't be stronger than a full warrior without your magic. Also with the amount of ooc going on, I doubt there won't be a few people thinking that they can finally go about and mass ghost every mage they hate. Other than the pvp aspect though, a mage with engine magic is believed IG and such, sadly a mage who only RPs everything even if they have engine magic, will only be laughed at, because most people are not deep enough into RP to be able to look past engine features.
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Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Flux »

A lot of mages act like they're omnipotent. If in the process of doing that, they managed to piss off half the island, then, indeed, they may well be in danger. That's called a consequence.

Don't get me wrong - my mage is an asshole, but he doesn't just have magic protecting him, he has plenty of allies who've always watched his back.

Remember both that you should separate your character's feelings from your own, and that this is a multiplayer game. If you've played your mage as an atrocious pain in the ass to everyone else, you can't complain when they get targeted for it. It's not the staff that has done this to you: it's your character who has established themselves as someone hated by living as if they have nothing to fear. It's poetic justice. You might not like the situation it puts your character into, but that's roleplaying; not every outcome will benefit your character.

On the topic of whether or not it's fun to play a mage with no runes, I think it very much is. My only character for 18 months was a mage build without a single rune. I found it extremely rewarding to play a character that had to influence people purely based on personality.
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Athian
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Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Athian »

@ Dylucks question

For me its more of the PVE aspect then the PVP aspect. As Flux mentioned most mages have bullied people and in the new magic-less world they may be on the receiving end of some punishment. In my main magic characters case that's won't really be much an issue. A quick change of his major attributes and he'll instantly switch into your standard maxed out warrior, albeit without the ability to heal himself through damage. Not to toot my own horn or anything but playing a character who survived on a mixture of skills makes it so I don't end up with an entirely useless character.

What gets me though is the severe loss of the utility my character had in the PVE environment. Yes its lovely to have a game that you play with others and experience in groups but it was a unique and enjoyable thing for me to be able to travel to just about any location on my own. No matter the monsters or the terrain there was something in my tool kit that allowed me to freely explore unimpeded without the need for others. No one ever knew where they would find him; sometimes at the bottom of a dungeon where a group would normally be needed to survive, sometimes sitting on your bed or using the depot in your house that you were sure was locked tight (and no you don't have to teleport through walls to get into most places ^^).
More over all the hard work I put in raising his skills and farming his items were twice as rewarding when I knew I started off from a place where he was mechanically at a disadvantage in either of the adventurer roles (magic or fighting) and ended up on the top of the heap in PVE (and amusingly in PVP too). I personally accomplished a lot on my mage learning to work the systems to the best of my ability and when half of it is lost it takes away a good chunk of the characters flavor and leaves me going "eh" but thats just my selfish take from my enjoyable personal experiences :D .


For those mages who weren't as fortunate to be built and raised as mine was its effectively a restart to everything. They can't explore, they can't craft they can't do much anything aside from sitting around or training skills that didn't suit there characters. Most will probably change their attributes to those of a warrior just so that they can enjoy the majority of the content of the game environment.

So it becomes a hard choice between 'staying true to your characters persona' and not being able to adventure and be a part of excitement of the game(alone or in a group) or changing your attributes and working down the long road of warrior skills. Then only for those warrior skills to become useless at some future date when you become a mage again and have to now skill up a whole new set of magic related skills to be able to adventure and enjoy the same PVE content from before. Sure there's plenty of RP driven things to enjoy in the meantime but its till a daunting task for the previous mage players who like to get out there into the thick of the game world.

/rant
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Rhianna Morgan
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Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Rhianna Morgan »

Mages... you could finally end up friend with the Norodaj, being stripped of magic! Why is it so hard to be happy about this? :P

I can see how many people are distressed about losing magical powers, but I must say I think it will be a real RP-challenge not only for mage chars, but also for all others. The moments, when they realize they don't have magic, the way they struggle doing stuff the ordinairy way instead of just bewitching everything that moves... they will actually need warriors for a change.

I'm very excited about this, and I think mages could also RP "working on a solution for the problem", since the magic can't just have gone forever - why not try to figure out how to gain it back until another update comes with a magic system?
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Qeewee
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Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Qeewee »

Rhianna Morgan wrote:Mages... you could finally end up friend with the Norodaj
What about elven mages? :o They still hate elves, don't they?
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Rhianna Morgan
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Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Rhianna Morgan »

yeah, but well... we were okay with SOME elves, we would not be called their friends, but some we had respect for ;) so if you are a respectable elven mage, maybe there IS hope :D
Elan Ravenwing
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Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Elan Ravenwing »

If I had a mage character who lost their power, I would roleplay every day doing various things to gain them back and rediscover magic. I would talk to stones, set myself on fire, take salt baths in the moonlight, eat vulcanic ash, drink elixirs and chant spells like a mad man, anything but the last thing i would do is stop playing based on unfinished state of the system. I.e. I would take it as IC consequence and roll with it.
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S'rrt
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Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by S'rrt »

Flux wrote:A lot of mages act like they're omnipotent. If in the process of doing that, they managed to piss off half the island, then, indeed, they may well be in danger. That's called a consequence.
--
If you've played your mage as an atrocious pain in the ass to everyone else, you can't complain when they get targeted for it. It's not the staff that has done this to you: it's your character who has established themselves as someone hated by living as if they have nothing to fear. It's poetic justice. You might not like the situation it puts your character into, but that's roleplaying; not every outcome will benefit your character.
THIS.

I can't wait to get my revenge on a few mages. No, I kid, I may even cooperate with the certain few them unless their omnipotent nature hasn't dissolved.
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GolfLima
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Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by GolfLima »

I´m sure some mages would have no problem in our "new world"
they where freindly and helpful at Gobaith and a lot of Char would help them now
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Estralis Seborian »

...and I am sure some of our current mages will take a look at the Lua documentation and consider to join the team to realise a new, balanced, sound and profound magic system within the next few months!

http://illarion.org/~testserver/luadocu.pdf

Or am I wrong?
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Djironnyma
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Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Djironnyma »

If you would be my over-patience mentor :P
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Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Flux »

Estralis Seborian wrote:...and I am sure some of our current mages will take a look at the Lua documentation and consider to join the team to realise a new, balanced, sound and profound magic system within the next few months!

http://illarion.org/~testserver/luadocu.pdf

Or am I wrong?
I'd be lying if I didn't say I really want to have a go at coding a new magic system.

.. I'll have a look at the documentation.
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Arvemor
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Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Arvemor »

I'd live to see people role playing their characters as mages stripped of powers... A lot of mages I have seen are the kind that would be devastated, broken and lost without runes, and seeing that would be amazing. If your character means that much to you, remember that we will gain a magic system in time.
Until then...mages have to make do without spells. That means role reversal for the many mages who once looked down on others... Now they will be the less powerful. Your mage may even need to take up a trade to earn a living! Or learn some new skills! This kind of dramatic change is exciting! I wish everyone saw it that way.
Zak
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Magical discussions

Post by Zak »

Kyre:

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Sad and unhappy looking at the NO MAGE skills wishing they could have just been left rather then deleted.
Salathe:

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I'm pretty sure it was more complicate than keep or delete. But yes, it'll be a good day when magic is implemented =)
Kiwi:

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Actually they kept tactics even though it's useless, just in case they will use it later so that players don't lose the levels.
 They could've just as easily kept the old mage skills, and made the levels transfer into the new mage skills/ make the old skills the new skills in some way. Now all master mages will start out equal with novice mages, which is really silly
Flux:

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All the mage skills are stored in the database, so shush.
Kyre:

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Alright.. all the skills NOT showing that are not deleted, and are in the data base. What will happen to them there? Why aren't they shown if not going to be deleted?
Jupiter:

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What do you mean with " What will happen to them there?"? Nothing happens with them "there". The database is the thing where we store all the informations. 
Why not shown: Because it was decided this way.
Kiwi:

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Now you're just being difficult and avoiding giving a proper answer to a question that can easily be understood, even if wrong words might have been chosen.
Dji:

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As long as it isnt decide how a new magic system will be and if it is possible to transform the old skills in new ones the old skills are stored. Since they have currently absolut now use theirs no reason to show them or to waste time wihle make it possible to be seen.
Kyre:

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Have skills not shown versus just transfer the char as is....seems like one is easier then the other. Even if no use, I would have prefered my char to continue to have them rather then not shown at all.. or kept in the data base.
Flux wrote:Pervestigatio, Commotio, Desicio, Transfreto and Transformo are dead. They are never coming back. Your skill numbers are stored so that if we have a new magic system, potentially we could divert those old values into the new magic skills.

But there is no point showing rune magic skills anymore because there is no rune magic.

The reason tactics is being shown still is that Tactics can be reimplemented by uncommenting 2 lines of code and refreshing the server. So if we do decide to put Tactics back in, even under a completely different guise, which we may or may not do, it will be a simple server refresh and it will be active again.

For magic there will be whole new skills, so there's absolutely no point in showing the old ones.

Jupiter:

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Nothing happens with them "there".
Kiwi:

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Now you're just being difficult and avoiding giving a proper answer to a question that can easily be understood, even if wrong words might have been chosen.
He wasn't arguing semantics at all, he answered the question. Nothing happens to them in the database. They collect dust. We saved them in case we decide to divert them into the new skills. The only thing he didn't explain is why we don't show them, but that should be obvious, based on what I just said above. Those skills are never coming back in their current form, so we're simply saving those data values in case we decide to be nice and divert your skill into the new skills. Which may actually be a lot of effort depending on the system we go for!

The fact that we aren't displaying the values is irrelevant. The fact that we chose to store those values when it would've been easier just to wipe them shows we are considering how they will impact the new magic system.
Kiwi:

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How about runes, will the ones who had runes, especially those with BHONA(seeing that was, for those that didn't trade runes oocly, very difficult to get), have to start all over again, or will they receive the new runes as a replacement? Or is it too early to tell?
There went a lot of effort into mage characters, losing everything and having to start over again is quite upsetting to most (even though I've noticed quite a few that didn't have mages, or didn't play them much, are supporting this to happen)
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Re: Magical discussions

Post by Flux »

All the runes are still stored in the database, but the new system almost certainly won't use runes.

We don't know the details of the new system yet, so it's pointless to speculate, but we'll keep in mind how good the mages are.

More likely than not, the runes will just get wiped and the skill will somehow move into the new skills, and maybe the new skill levels determine how many spells you have. Alternatively, maybe runes will get converted into spells, depending on the system we use. Or maybe you'll have to go collect the spells yourself but you'll still have skill values.

Or maybe you'll have nothing.

We don't know yet. We're not even talking about it right now, there's too much else to focus on. I won't promise anything because it's as simple as that - we don't know how the new system will work. We have lots of ideas but nothing concrete. So, with that in mind, we have stored all values of all your skills and runes, so if we choose to divert them later, which we may or may not do (I, personally, am of the opinion that we should), then we have all the data we need to do so.

There's really no point discussing any more to do with this, because we know as much as you do about what will happen.
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