VBU and mage chars

Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.

Moderator: Gamemasters

User avatar
Kyre
Posts: 1257
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:44 pm
Contact:

VBU and mage chars

Post by Kyre »

Out of curiosity only...since there will be no mage system at first in the VBU ( see topic: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 7&start=90 ) How many players are going to continue playing their mage chars until/when the magic system is introduced and how many will shelve their mage chars until then?

If you continue to play your mage char.. what plans do you have for them, or have you thought of any yet? I am actually hoping to get ideas from the rest of the players.
User avatar
Djironnyma
Posts: 3221
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 4:34 pm
Location: Berlin
Contact:

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Djironnyma »

I played my mage now the 3rd or 4th time without any magic system. No reason to bother its fun anyway. Nice roleplaying aspects to be no overpowered overlrod anymore :p
Enviyatar
Posts: 383
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:38 pm

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Enviyatar »

smoking sibanac... as usual. ;)
User avatar
Qeewee
Posts: 573
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Qeewee »

Seeing I feel it forces my mages rp by removing her only source of power, ill probably just stop playing illa again, because I doubt "they" will come up with a story good enough for it to not shatter my rp as her.
User avatar
Estralis Seborian
Posts: 12308
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:14 pm
Location: Sir Postalot
Contact:

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Estralis Seborian »

I have a thought I'd like to share with you: Illarion is an independent game with a small player base, run by an even smaller staff of volunteers. These volunteers spend a lot of time for providing a nice game, but Illarion is not a game that one can "consume". The game benefits from active players that contribute to the game, either ingame by initiating storylines and plots or outside the game by e.g. promoting it.

Now, if a game like this misses a feature you would like to have; what speaks against helping to realise it? Since it is not difficult to learn scripting and even less difficult to learn e.g. using the easyNPC editor, wouldn't it be great to see your ideas realised in your game? Wouldn't you feel great to become part of something and make your actions matter for other players?

I cannot resist on commenting that if your "RP" is so much based on an engine feature that you should consider basing your RP on the needs, feelings, desires and thoughts of a character you make up. Sure, engine features help a lot to make your role credible, but this cannot, must not be the basis of RP. Nevertheless: A game like Illarion becomes much more enjoyable with nice engine features and we should be honest: The more toys, the more fun!
User avatar
Qeewee
Posts: 573
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Qeewee »

I don't really disagree with that. The thing is however, many mages RP has evolved with magic and their personality wont be the same without it, upon losing this, remaking the personality of the character in that manner might ruin peoples fun with playing the character, all depending on how you GMs choose to play out the loss of magic that will happen. I fear my character will change so much due to losing her powers, as I can't just ignore her built up personality and pretend losing her magic is nothing, that she won't be fun to play anymore, even if I can make up a reaction and such and keep playing her.
User avatar
Kyre
Posts: 1257
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:44 pm
Contact:

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Kyre »

A gamemasters permission is needed for all magical and divine interventions that cannot be realised by the engine.
I would like to know how this will be interpreted by the GM's when there is no runes in the VBU and before magic can be again available to mages those that are mages now. AND how this will be interpreted to those that would LIKE to be mages after the VBU and before magic is implemented.

Also it might be advantageous to have an indication that when magic is again implemented will mages have to "start from scratch" with skills AND getting runes also or will former mages i.e. particularly those with most/all their runes be allowed some reciprocity for their patient waiting by not having to re-earn all of them again?

We all know the engine plays some part in Illa as a game otherwise people would just be doing text RP.. therefore yes, the engine does play some part in the char's RP, not all but part. :D
User avatar
Djironnyma
Posts: 3221
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 4:34 pm
Location: Berlin
Contact:

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Djironnyma »

How should someone answer these questions without knowing what knind of system will followe?

Anyway: Last time we had no magic system it wasnt possible to get the runes/skills from the former system into the new one. Some chars get the new runes because they were once great mages and because their players constant roleplayed an mage even if there was no magic system. Indeed that made other players which mages get no runes jaelous and start a flamewar about favouritism.

Since the current magic system is total crap it isnt very likly that the devs can transfer the old(=current) skills & runes into a new system. If you want avoid an giant conflict abour favouritism and fairness you shouldnt also avoid to give any char skill or runes with the new system for free.

If there are good IG reasons/quests why the magic disappeart /come back i see no big deal in it. To be serious, i had most fun with dji as an mage in the time as we had no magic system. Back in this times magic was something mysthic and more legendary. Nothing common as it is now :wink:
User avatar
Samantha Stoneridge
Posts: 568
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:39 am

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Samantha Stoneridge »

Instead of whining about how "they" won't come up with a good enough story... How about we help develop one?

Copied from: http://illarion.org/community/wiki/inde ... dead_magic

"4.3 Areas of dead magic
Caused by magical accidents, such as unsuccessful rituals, the arcane structures of some places have been demolished so heavily, that most of the mana energy they were carrying was given out to arcane structures and areas outside the surrounding spots. In areas of dead magic, it's absolutely impossible to use magic. Every being or object, that stays in such an area, will continuealy lose mana energy, which, in most cases, will end in their death or destruction. Luckily, those areas of dead magic accure very rarely. If you find one, though, you should leave it as quick as possible
."

There is already lore of places where magic cannot be used. Depending on what the events are that officially start the VBU, it can be said that one of them severely damages the arcane structure of the land. Perhaps not completely dead, as that would kill everyone and everything, but damaged enough that there is only enough mana to sustain life. Then, following on the idea of Moribus, the mages could band together. They could search for ways to start strengthening the mana streams or redirecting mana streams from other places. In the end, this is a role-playing game, let's try to role-play this and I think we may all be surprised at how much fun we have doing so.
User avatar
Fianna Heneghan
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:40 pm
Contact:

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Fianna Heneghan »

In the past mages had no magic system and druids had no druid system. That didn't stop people from roleplaying mages and druids. Of course it would be better if the VBU included magic but just because the engine doesn't support rune magic doesn't mean players can't find a way to roleplay the pieces that the game can't support.

I remember the excitement of the release of the magic system we have currently. Mages were something really rare and special. Personally, I look forward to recapturing some of that excitement and uniqueness. Mage POs will be able to find a way to express their creativity with their characters somehow even though the practical functionality of the mage character isn't there. I don't think we need a back story to explain why magic is missing. It's temporary and we can all pretend it's still there.
User avatar
Qeewee
Posts: 573
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Qeewee »

Fianna Heneghan wrote:In the past mages had no magic system and druids had no druid system. That didn't stop people from roleplaying mages and druids. Of course it would be better if the VBU included magic but just because the engine doesn't support rune magic doesn't mean players can't find a way to roleplay the pieces that the game can't support.

I remember the excitement of the release of the magic system we have currently. Mages were something really rare and special. Personally, I look forward to recapturing some of that excitement and uniqueness. Mage POs will be able to find a way to express their creativity with their characters somehow even though the practical functionality of the mage character isn't there. I don't think we need a back story to explain why magic is missing. It's temporary and we can all pretend it's still there.
To quote what Kyre mentioned:
A gamemasters permission is needed for all magical and divine interventions that cannot be realised by the engine.
That rule would be needing change then, and a guideline for what is allowed to be RPed and not when it comes to magic as well, so we don't get too ridiculous things.
User avatar
Fianna Heneghan
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:40 pm
Contact:

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Fianna Heneghan »

We RP things all the time that the engine can't support. There are no bandages or pastes in the hospital and my medico doesn't actually make people healthier. There are no children, yet there are no shortage of characters having and roleplaying them. I don't see why the magic system should be any different. We can't roleplay an outcome for another character, but I don't see why we can't use what the engine offers and make it magical. So your portal really came from a journey book? It's still a magic gate and a free ride. I'd play along with that RP. I'd play along with any good, imaginative RP.
User avatar
Kyre
Posts: 1257
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:44 pm
Contact:

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Kyre »

When was the release of the magic system we have currently? It was before I joined and I think I joined before a few of you with my original char. I remember the release of the druid system.. much less "druids" in game now and more fighter/apothecary mixes.

I gather from what you are saying Dji that the mages of today will have to begin totally new like anyone that have just joined the game. This is not encouraging to continue RPing your mage char. I am assuming unless someone says otherwise that the rule will be lenient for "former mages" RPing they are still a mage however.
User avatar
Fianna Heneghan
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:40 pm
Contact:

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Fianna Heneghan »

You were here when the current system was released. Remember Samantha Meryadeles was the first magic teacher? Athian was the next one, I think, and Sideon Vilarion taught magic in those early days too.
User avatar
Djironnyma
Posts: 3221
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 4:34 pm
Location: Berlin
Contact:

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Djironnyma »

uhm no damien and me where the first vialarion a student of dji, samatha of the academy ;)
User avatar
Kyre
Posts: 1257
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:44 pm
Contact:

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Kyre »

I am not sure that was the first release.. Duchan was here before Samantha. That system was just nerfed from the original I believe but it doesn't matter. I am gathering from current posts. Mages will loose all skill and runes in the VBU and will not have any recompense when the new system WILL be in place.

Except for RP reasons then, back to the original question. How many of the players will continue their mage RP now as suggested...or have you yet decided?
User avatar
Qeewee
Posts: 573
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Qeewee »

Character wipe would've made things easier, seeing they can't just postpone the vbu a month or two and actually create a magic system based on the old one as a place holder....
User avatar
Ufedhin
Posts: 797
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:45 am
Location: In a barrel with salted herrings.

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Ufedhin »

I liken the loss of magic and alchemy to the real world losing electricity and oil ,yes we would still limp on but.....
I have nothing but admiration for those who dedicate their time and effort to this remakable games creation , Hod will have to take up his 2nd career choice alternative to magiks as a maker of shoes and stockings for ladies.. er.. hopefully :? .

But is it not counterproductive to the idea of the VBU attracting more players , will fighting and crafting be enough to make it happen?Good roleplaying in my understanding is always better when you have a skeleton to hang the meat on, so to speak .Magic and alchemy are pretty big bones in a fantasy world.
Is the VBU's release perhaps too hasty?


Just a thought.
User avatar
Nalzaxx
Posts: 1234
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:14 pm
Location: In Ethereal Thoughts

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Nalzaxx »

Ufedhin wrote: Is the VBU's release perhaps too hasty?
Lol.
User avatar
Athian
Posts: 2429
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 7:15 pm

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Athian »

Might keep playing my mage character, its 50/50 for me. When i do play my mage again seriously it will only be after a system is in place. There was actually RP that i down-righted hated during the no magic system periods of Illa.

We've had plenty of RP mages doing grand rituals, spells and epic things when their skill in any magic vocation has been literally abyssal. I'm actually not looking forward to a repeat of the days when RP wise a mage can do tremendous nonsensical rituals if he asks nicely enough, but technically he's weak as a butterfly. I've always thought those two aspects should have gone hand in hand but they never did. A skilless mage could performs works of the gods as long as he knew the right people(ooc), didn't' really even matter if the rituals or ceremonies even made sense. This produced a sense of favoritism just as much as the initial magic teacher system did. I hope not to see this in illa at all post VBU, at least until theirs a corresponding system in place.

Also I'm exhausted by the mere thought of having to rebuild those skills from the bottom again, they took FAR to long to begin with and even knowing it'll take less time then it did before doesn't make me look forward to it. Mages of all sorts will once again have to skill as warriors in order to enjoy any of the PVE content, and they'll be even worse at it considering the new monsters and systems will likely put them at a disadvantage for having magic orientated attributes. I can't see any benefit in actually playing a mage outside of RP for most players (who don't have hybrid mage/warriors), it'll be like playing a craftsmen with no craft.

All and all my mage will be there but probably end up being my least played character for a long time. I'll look forward to a new system when it eventually comes but if its going to be years before that happens i honestly doubt I'll stick around.
User avatar
rakust dorenstkzul
Posts: 2300
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:47 pm
Location: In the heart of every smiling child

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by rakust dorenstkzul »

Personally, i think that the removal of magic for the time being is a good thing. You see. There are a few types of mage characters kicking around right now

Those who can't RP, but are friends with a teacher
Those who can RP, but their teacher is inactive
Those who are teachers, are kind of elitist, won't teach the first kind, and might teach the second, before going inactive
Those who are teachers, are fantastic rpers, could teach the first kind to RP, and to magic - Inactive
Those who are not teachers, are highly skilled engine wise and thus face no legitimate threat in engine terms, and dampens any sort of conflict RP, and the player knows it, and god modes through everything.

With the removal of magic, this should hopefully clear the slate.

Remember guys.

IT'S THE RP, NOT THE ITEMS OR THE SKILLS, IF YOU WANT THOSE, THERE'S A TAVERN IN GOLDSHIRE


I have never played a mage.

Courtesy Edit: You don't fall into any of those groups.
User avatar
Athian
Posts: 2429
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 7:15 pm

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Athian »

Id agree with you Rakaust in part. Yes the RP is important but in any game that isn't text based the skill and the items also have their own value. The key goal isn't to make one more valuable then the others but to have them all support one another to bring out the best of a fully immersing game.

If you removed the combat system and left the magic system instead i would have the exact same feelings in regards to it. For the same reason i find it rather awkward to have some an epic RP sword-fight with an unskilled character then the next day that character whom I battled with dies fighting some flies that got in passed the city gates. When the RP doesn't match the characters impact on the environment (the game world) then it also diminishes the RP on some level.

I dislike when any system is missing from a game where you have per-established characters, who have devoted time and energy into that particular branch of the game, be it magic, fighting, crafting etc. Its no the end of the world but it will diminish the game-play experience for both old and new players for a good time to come. I do understand its completely necessary with the new hefty update coming, but having gone through this same thing several times now, I'm not going to like it ^^.
User avatar
Achae Eanstray
Posts: 4300
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:03 am
Location: A field of dandelions
Contact:

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Achae Eanstray »

Honestly and not to hurt anyone's feelings, I have not had a char that actually enjoys the druid system/apothecary "magic" system ever since the original potion system was removed, and have tried and tried to enjoy it. Since that time I have seen a wonderful group of roleplayers that actually did more roleplay then PGing but still managed to make a few potions.. drop to barely nothing, sadly.

I can fully understand @Ufedhin when the player wonders if just two systems.. well maybe three with apothecary.. and no mage system which can be a big positive to game.. can draw and keep new players in the short term.. as the VBU is hoping to do. *shrugs*

I can also understand @Athian wondering if building up your mage will be worth the effort AGAIN.

Ultimately, I haven't made a decision.
User avatar
Pendar
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:36 am
Location: Founding member of H.A.L ~home for abused lichs~http://h.a.l.istheshit.net/

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Pendar »

I do not often claim to know much about this game anymore, I am old relic that just pops in for some RP now and then. I do however clearly recall that the way the previous magic system was introduced is what finally motivated my quitting entirely. So a few lessons I hope the game will take from previous experience.

My biggest problem with how magic was reintroduced revolved around it being misappropriated by staff or friends of staff? I never cared who was doing what much inside this game but when I saw huge clouds of fire being used to kill characters as part of a quest or not it felt like a slap in the face. To the mages who actually mattered the ones we knew as heroes and villans and games. It should have filtered through them, through the players and the first column of fire we saw should have been cast by Athian, Moshker, Kaja, Damien or who ever. In a way that was sensible to the game, having a bunch of super mages ,played npcs arrive and reveal it while showing off magic was off putting in the extreme.

At the same time the magic lessons, were just an insult to intelligence and forced players to rp in a way that was not becoming just to get a mechanical benefit. It was truly a low point for this game.

This is not about rehashing the past though its about taking certain lessons forward. I believe that the game survived before for a time without magic and it offered some unique rp. However if we broke the fighting system some how we would then demand that every warrior go back and reskill just to kill a troll again. So by that token some allowance needs to be made for the new implementation of magic, if a mage has skills XYZ and previously had runes they should be compensated, with a set of starter runes or spells.

I think the players in conjunction with staff can sieze an opportunity to lay down some real game lore regarding ritual magic, the nature of magic itself and how it works both as an RP mechanic. I see the wiki has a brief introduction to magic and thats serviceable for why you can make a fireball but there is room to grow it.

It should be firmly given to the players to rediscover magic, let new legends be born and old character flex their undeniable rp muscle.

Find a balance that makes requiring the skills people once had as painless as possible, without making it too easy for newcomers. No player or very few really like skill grinding, very few people even like doing it in WOW so I doubt they will embrace it here. Its the old imbalance the characters most willing to pg and amass in game power are often the players least equipped to manage it. Skills in Illarion are something you painfully amass to allow you to really enjoy the game in the long term. So if we can respect the work put in by existing characters, it would be a huge step forward.

Its a catch 22 the player count is down and the VBU can remedy that, I would just hope its not at the expense of the characters who have supported the game all along. If its managed properly it can be a positive experience for existing mages, off set against a few months of being handicapped.
Thargon
Posts: 160
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:36 pm
Location: Location Location

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Thargon »

Well atleast it gives illarion a more real life feel.. instead of going to waste on the intellectual characters and making primal warriors with the mental capacity of a spoon. instead of magic how about technology? surely in this game there is room for inventors.

That can actually INVENT something.
Grokk
Posts: 489
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:17 am

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Grokk »

If you feel that the temporary loss of a magic system is going to ruin your character then, I'm sorry, but you can't have had much of a character to begin with.

There is really nothing to do but see this as the roleplaying challenge that it is. Complaining, pointing out the negative consequences, stating your intention to stop playing, etc is clearly going to have no effect on anything whatsoever. Just make the most of the situation and enjoy the roleplay that is going to result from it. Your character is going to wake up one day and find that they are no longer able to use magic. They are going to learn that their mage brothers and sisters are experiencing the same problem. Personally, I would find it much more interesting to ask and answer the question "How does my character react to this?" than to carry on with whatever played-out, mundane plans involving magic I had (didn't have) before.

A decent portion of this community still needs to realise that roleplaying involves characters being placed into situations that are not in their favour. Situations that you, as a player, might not desire. Situations that might affect your character in a manner you had not foreseen. Your job is to show the rest of us how your character will react in such a situation. It is not your job to start whining in order to get your character removed from the situation, or begin complaining so that the person who put your character into the situation is punished. You, and only you, have control over your character's actions. This does not mean that you get to determine what happens to your character. You aren't the only person writing your character's story. If you lack the maturity to understand and accept this, then leaving now might be a sensible move because the VBU will probably not be a good time for you.

Here, the situation that the characters are put in is an unfortunate one, brought on by undesirable real world issues. No one is denying that it would be preferable to have the new magic system implemented from the get-go. Everyone would love for another year's worth of effort to have gone into the VBU. But delaying its release any longer is simply not an option. Short of someone coming out of nowhere and scripting an entire system, the VBU will be released without a magic system. I would hope that mage POs will see this as a great opportunity for the growth and development of their character, rather than a game-breaking issue.
User avatar
Kyre
Posts: 1257
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:44 pm
Contact:

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Kyre »

I don't believe any portion of the players needs a lecture on whether their mage character is a good one just because they may disagree with something, nor how some parts of the "community" can't seem to understand certain aspects of roleplay. The original question:
How many players are going to continue playing their mage chars until/when the magic system is introduced and how many will shelve their mage chars until then
still applies.

I have decided to not play my char as solely a mage now and continue to play the witch aspect. One "dream" if you call it that is to have my mage char learn just "pure" magic with NO weapons used...only to her detriment in the upcoming VBU.

So.. I'll change her direction for now and teach her at least enough fighting skills she can move past the simplest of monsters and HOPE earning her runes after the VBU doesn't entail something disagreeable/lame (to me at least) like quests which I am not good at. :wink:

______________________________________________________________________

Added: Dev's and GM's of Illarion please consider this when you DO introduce the new magic system: re-read what @Pendar wrote and even if you give older mage chars just 3-4 runes as a "gift" for sticking with the game all this time you will increase that player's loyalty tenfold in the long-run.
Last edited by Kyre on Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Athian
Posts: 2429
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 7:15 pm

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Athian »

I quite Agree with Kyre on that. All these Roleplay lectures are stale and boring and they don't make anyone greater then thou 'roleplayers' or not. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes when it comes to illarion, some like the RP aspect some like the technical aspects some like both. Putting down one side over the other to cover the games mechanical lacking however is really transparent. "Make the best of a bad situation because the Update isn't entirely complete." is fine to say. Trying to brow beat the few people who show displeasure towards it though, that's tasteless.

Those who want to complain and point out negative consequences are allowed to do so as the please so long as they don't do it in a nasty or spiteful way or start some silly flame-war. Everyone is entitled to their respective opinions.
User avatar
Nitram
Developer
Posts: 7638
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:51 am
Contact:

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Nitram »

Image
User avatar
Athian
Posts: 2429
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 7:15 pm

Re: VBU and mage chars

Post by Athian »

lol :P

Nitram, gets an instant 3 dots for trollish comedy. If you have time to be making jokes then why don't you spend it figuring out a way to make my Ipod smaller. :wink:

/enslaves
Locked