Becoming Evil

Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.

Moderator: Gamemasters

Thargon
Posts: 160
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:36 pm
Location: Location Location

Becoming Evil

Post by Thargon »

So I have some questions about being evil
From the little game experience I've had I've noticed that there is no potent player evil to be afraid of apart from running into some scary drunken dwarfs. and I assume being aligned as evil ((and I don't mean like undercut you on price of bread evil, I mean like surrounded by evil magiks with an ambition to take over the island evil)) would Isolate you completely at the start of a game making it impossible to role play such a thing because there are players already in there that can flick their fingers and your ghosted. It also wouldn't make sense to have a beer with your best buddy the town guard in trollsbane after you just finished up slaying the poor halfling cook for his pies. so becoming evil would mostly likely make most but the few geniuses give up on evil because it's just too hard.
so my questions are

Is there a place where the evil dudes can chill like in Silverbrand?

would an evil character get more support from gods(gms and such) if they had awesome Rp skills?

Income. much trade would be cut off from the outside world how would an evil char get funds?

Is there any point in trying to play and an evil person? because a lot of the changes that needed to be made depend on gms.
(such as living in a crypt full of undead things and having them as allies or whatever else)


if anyone wants to add anything feel free to post it on the thread An I hope it'll get answered along with mine.
User avatar
Velisai
Posts: 338
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 3:23 pm
Location: where pigs can fly

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Velisai »

I mean like surrounded by evil magiks with an ambition to take over the island evil
Unnecessary offence deleted - Arien Edhel
have a beer with your best buddy the town guard in trollsbane after you just finished up slaying the poor halfling cook for his pies
Lots of chars do this every day.
Is there a place where the evil dudes can chill like in Silverbrand?
Pretty much everywhere. As long as you don't poop where you eat, you'll always have a place you can relax at.
would an evil character get more support from gods(gms and such) if they had awesome Rp skills?
Not likely to get a lot of GM time before the VBU release, I think. Maybe a quester can elaborate on this.
Income. much trade would be cut off from the outside world how would an evil char get funds?
You force people to do stuff for you. What good is dominating others if you still have to pay for everything/produce your own goods?
Is there any point in trying to play and an evil person? because a lot of the changes that needed to be made depend on gms.
(such as living in a crypt full of undead things and having them as allies or whatever else)
There is. You don't need GM assistance. You can't live among the undead as they don't care how good or evil you are. They want to eat your brain or just beat the crap out of you cause meatbags make funny sounds when pounded with a warhammer.
Magic or fighting skill or both help you get away with some stuff. You might even be able to pull it off without any skill at all if you are the manipulative type of evil. Having some powerful friends is vital in that case, but that never hurts, no matter if you own char is strong or weak, good or evil.
User avatar
Achae Eanstray
Posts: 4300
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:03 am
Location: A field of dandelions
Contact:

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Achae Eanstray »

Most trying to roleplay real "evil" tend to forget two basic rules of the game, we play with each other not against and bad or "evil" will be ghosted more then if you play this nice crafter fellow.

There was a time I used to be excited and look forward to going into the town of Trolls Bane. The "evil" characters were always fun and just because they were evil didn't mean you were worried about being ghosted though I did put armor on my character only when going there.

This type of "evil" hasn't been played successfully in a lonnnnnngggg time. I would say it requires someone conversant with the all the rules, and possibly even starting out as a quest discussing with a GM, also very familiar with roleplay.
User avatar
Athian
Posts: 2429
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 7:15 pm

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Athian »

For my personal two cents:
Stereotypical inspector gadget style evil villains who are evil for the sack of being evil are as much a plot device as a character who is good for the sheer sake of goodness. As far as playing one is concerns the experience of it can be exhausting, frustrating and overall boring as the same tired motif without any other activities to break away from the monotony of pure good and pure evil.

Pure Good/evil characters tend to be created and used for quests and are gone once the quests are over. That said though their are plenty of characters who will do things associated as 'evil acts' if the right motivations come along. For many of the 'powerful' or influential characters in the game to really start doing some serious naughtiness though their would have to be a greater(and attainable) goal involved.

On my main character I've never once felt motivated to do something truly atrocious(rest assured he certainly would and has planned). Furthermore I've found over the years that 'evil support' is the worst especially when your character or group is a powerful one. There are always complaints, the victim side always feels they have to be able to win, fight back or figure out your plot without using any real brain power...it's a mess that no one wants to deal with. And unless you portray yourself as 'good' guys theirs a bit of bias even in requesting support.

Thus I curbed my characters more violent/motivated impulses to occasional outbursts and time periods of being volatile. I've left all his plots and plans that could be seen as evil on the back burner because I know their will be the strictest limitation on what my character will be able to achieve. If he reaches to far then he'll have to 'lose' so that the world keeps turning. If he reaches to short then he doesn't' gain nearly enough for losing all the privileges being seen as a neutral body provide.

At the moment simply put the reward of doing wrong, even IF you win is not great enough to motivate 'evil' behaviors over generally neutral non-threatening ones. Until this changes you won't see anyone stretching out their neck unless they know they've got nothing to lose already.

p.s. It will be a bit more 'easy' to be evil after the VBU :wink:.
Thargon
Posts: 160
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:36 pm
Location: Location Location

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Thargon »

Thanks for all the replies :D

From what I understand from your replies being evil would be best played as a hidden sleeper cell which acts all nice and fluffy but is slowly corrupting others to his cause, then planting an idea in there heads, which allows you to control them and make them do evil things yes? This would both be time consuming and carefully carried out along with satisfying if it works. :twisted:
Grokk
Posts: 489
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:17 am

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Grokk »

That would work well, sure. But there's no "best" way to play any type of character.

My advice is just to be prepared for the drama that will find its way onto your doorstep once you disturb Arcadia. And not the good kind of drama, mind you.
User avatar
Djironnyma
Posts: 3221
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 4:34 pm
Location: Berlin
Contact:

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Djironnyma »

I think first of all you have to think about what evil means? I have a theory. There is no evil. See, what is pure evil in RL? Nazis, Satanists and ExxonMobile? All these groups/ppl. doesn’t have the goal to being evil, Nazis seek power, Satanists seek attention and ExxonMobile seek money. So evil isn’t something about blood, black cloaks and a deep lough. It’s more about having a goal and don’t matter about who will be harmed by following it.

Most fanatics (no matter if religious, political or whatever) are seen by others as evil. But also a politician which seek for power or a mage who wants to be the best caster ever could be evil if he follows his goal the "wrong" way.

But anyway its very true what Athian sayed. Whenever you play a character who is not calm and neutral you will have problems IG with other chars and sadly even ooc with other problems. Not anyone will seperate ig and ooc complete.
User avatar
Hew Keenaxe
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

Hew is viewed by some to be an evil character, though I don't play him to think he is. He is prone to make others mad, to cause harm or insult to others, but he does have a reason for most of his actions. Though those reasons may not be reasonable. My aggressive RP with Hew, attempting to make waves and cause some hate and discontent, does have it's drawbacks. Spending much time begging the gods for one more chance at life is one of them. Having difficulty finding a safe haven is another. Obtaining supplies too. Still, I find it worth it. I have other characters that are happy to sit by a campfire and BS the night away. To be pleasing to any that come along. Hew is my escape from that boredom. But , it is also balanced with many hours of PGing skills to make up for his many losses ( Extreme Boredom, PGing )
I'd say play one character the way you want, enjoy. If he has a hard time for that, Thats real. Play another to get your fix of RP time.
User avatar
Valen Tiercelion
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:10 am
Location: Beyond the rainbow

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Valen Tiercelion »

Evil is interesting because it contrasts nicely with the so called good. Without darkness, how would anyone know what light is like?

Some of the most entertaining characters I've come across have been 'evil'. Although, you wouldn't know it though from the way they carried themselves. :o

Definitely, under appreciated and supported, but if we all do our part and make it easier for nonconventional characters to be played, we'd certainly reap the thrilling rewards :)
Damien
Posts: 7845
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2001 5:59 pm
Location: Vanima and grey Refuge, of course.
Contact:

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Damien »

If you make chars that are purely "good" or "evil", you'll end up with stereotypics sooner than you want.
I would suggest to play a character with balanced dephts and heigths, and generally avoid playing something too "uncommon".

If you still prefer playing an "evil" role, have a few hopefully helpful things:
1. If you make "evil" characters, don't EVER play them to "win" (generally avoid that atitude), or you'll get frustrated, and you'll end up frustrating a LOT of other players up to the point where they stop playing.
2. Always treat your "evil" char as a kind of NPC and play them to be fun for all others instead.
3. If you don't think it's fun to play an "evil" char just for the sake of acting it and with the goal of kinda "loosing" in the end, THEN DON'T DO IT. See 1 for reasons.
4. Good guys will find loyal friends, bad guys won't. Bad guys also have a much shorter life expectancy. NEVER be OOC-ish angry with anyone opposing your villain char.
5. NEVER kill anyone twice or more within some weeks.
6. Try to stay fair. Somewhen, every villain WILL be outnumbered by "good" and "normal" guys together. Then, it's time to step down the ladder and up the executioner's block, or to flee the island, whatever ends up being the best RP. Better to be the big boom at the end than becoming a big pain in the butt for the rest of the world.
7. Set a death timeframe for the evil-villain-plot. That means: Don't play the villain too long, or it will just end up annoying the "normal" character's players.If you get hunted out of a town, stay out of it for longer.
--Oh. And NEVER use OOC means for an ingame advantage. For example: Stuff like burning down troll's Bane or invading Silverbrand when it's inhabitants are logged off (sleeping) will most likely get your char banned instead of everything else (Because it's unfair play style).
User avatar
Valen Tiercelion
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:10 am
Location: Beyond the rainbow

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Valen Tiercelion »

I have to disagree. Sure characters may be multi faceted, but this is roleplaying. The point is have drama and fun, a reprieve from the humdrum of the everyday world. Player characters should be out of the ordinary, even extraordinary. It would take someone with a middle- to upper class background with not a lot lose to venture out by themselves and land on the island of Gobaith anyways. Not to mention a healthy dose of courage and true grit. These would generally not be your common peasantry.

Furthermore, evil is by definition someone who wants to win at all costs without regard for others. If not, where would the evil be? You seem to be describing consideration in the ooc sense as discussed in "Where do you draw the line?" Most people did agree there that they would show other players the consideration of not going beyond 'stumbles backwards' due to the aggravating technicalities of being ghosted here.

I would personally never treat my char as a kind of NPC because that would be terribly boring both for myself and everyone around me. Have you ever tried talking to Borgate? Arrr! Arrr! Want a beer? Want a beer? is funny precisely because it is so exceedingly dull.

On the contrary, instead of telling people to not do something that would greatly enrich the playing experience, we should try our best to accommodate and overcome the challenges towards making it possible. Why throw the baby out with the wash?

So called bad guys have their own brand of loyalty too. Haven't you ever heard of thieves' honor? For life expectancies, again, there's no sense in comparing to our world. Elves don't exist in our world either, but they're still wonderful to play. I would say regardless that many bad guys live lives of great luxury and longevity in our world. There wouldn't be revolutions and such discontent otherwise.

Why kill anyone at all if you can help it? There is no death here anyways just deskilling and ghosting.

If you find it a big pain in the butt to play, you might want to take a break. If by normal, you mean neutral characters, neutral people aren't for the good either. Does that make it time for the good guys to hang themselves?

FInally, there should always be evil in the world just like there should always be chocolate to go with your vanilla ice-cream :). Contrast provides flavor, it's the breath of fresh air that inspires people to log on. Why would you not want that?

Besides, you can't always time things to fit other players' schedules. Everyone should adapt to each others' role-play given the circumstances posed by our varying timezones. Be flexible. Take the actions of others in a spirit of good fun. A bit of humor and goodwill wouldn't hurt either.


Oh and this is all coming from someone who plays a character who is the farthest from evil you could imagine haha !
Last edited by Valen Tiercelion on Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
Thargon
Posts: 160
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:36 pm
Location: Location Location

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Thargon »

So from all the replies Everyone has there own sort of Definition of evil
so to put it into perspective Has anyone ever played an "evil" character and if so what was you're experience?
User avatar
Juliana D'cheyne
Posts: 1643
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:14 am
Contact:

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Juliana D'cheyne »

Crazy evil for one entire summer. Ghosted about 4-5 characters, perma'd two with player permission. My experience is on the whole.. evil will come to a bad end in the game however I was hoping the "crazy" part would give some slack. Apparently it did. After the summer ( and a quest that lasted all summer ), she was still crazy but just not as evil.

Average ghosting she receives when played as crazy evil, about once every other month or so. During that summer probably about 3-4 times with loss of equipment and a little skill. Evil.. or your interpretation can be entertaining for others in the game depending on the roleplay.
Grokk
Posts: 489
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:17 am

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Grokk »

Damien wrote:If you make chars that are purely "good" or "evil", you'll end up with stereotypics sooner than you want.
I would suggest to play a character with balanced dephts and heigths, and generally avoid playing something too "uncommon".

If you still prefer playing an "evil" role, have a few hopefully helpful things:
1. If you make "evil" characters, don't EVER play them to "win" (generally avoid that atitude), or you'll get frustrated, and you'll end up frustrating a LOT of other players up to the point where they stop playing.
2. Always treat your "evil" char as a kind of NPC and play them to be fun for all others instead.
3. If you don't think it's fun to play an "evil" char just for the sake of acting it and with the goal of kinda "loosing" in the end, THEN DON'T DO IT. See 1 for reasons.
4. Good guys will find loyal friends, bad guys won't. Bad guys also have a much shorter life expectancy. NEVER be OOC-ish angry with anyone opposing your villain char.
5. NEVER kill anyone twice or more within some weeks.
6. Try to stay fair. Somewhen, every villain WILL be outnumbered by "good" and "normal" guys together. Then, it's time to step down the ladder and up the executioner's block, or to flee the island, whatever ends up being the best RP. Better to be the big boom at the end than becoming a big pain in the butt for the rest of the world.
7. Set a death timeframe for the evil-villain-plot. That means: Don't play the villain too long, or it will just end up annoying the "normal" character's players.If you get hunted out of a town, stay out of it for longer.
--Oh. And NEVER use OOC means for an ingame advantage. For example: Stuff like burning down troll's Bane or invading Silverbrand when it's inhabitants are logged off (sleeping) will most likely get your char banned instead of everything else (Because it's unfair play style).
Shit like this does my head in.

Why is the first reaction always to try and convince people that they shouldn't play an evil character?

Whenever someone puts forward the idea of playing an evil character, it is met with this response of "Well...if you insist, BUT you have to put the other players first. And remember that your character is only in the game for their benefit. And, although we all play with, not against, each other, this applies doubly so for you. And be prepared to get ghosted a lot. But you must keep your own ghost count to an absolute minimum, and try to obey arbitrary limits. And understand that other people are going to complain about you. And realise that your character is going to ultimately lose, and that when this occurs, permadeath is the desirable option. Etc." Screw that. No other character type is met with such qualifications, neither should evil characters. In fact, they should be encouraged, not dissuaded.

Roleplay needs conflict. Conflict is what drives the story and makes the game interesting. Without conflict, Illarion is boring and nobody plays it. Many players aren't very good at generating conflict within the game. That's fine. There shouldn't be an expectation that people do so. But those who do create conflict should be actively supported (rather than being vilified by the community and punished by the staff, as has too often been the case in Illarion's past). They are vital to Illarion's success, or lack thereof. Evil characters necessarily generate conflict. The range of moral stances held across all the citizens of Illarion is such that it is near impossible to play an evil character and not piss a few people off. Those who choose to create evil characters should not be subject to extraordinary rules, conditions, or expectations. If anything, they should receive support and protection beyond that which is normally offered.

The concern behind these qualifications is at least partly understandable. There is a fear that the players of these characters are going to exploit their OOC position and try to affect the player behind the keyboard. This is a legitimate concern. The problem with it is that there is no evidence suggesting that such behaviour is confined to, or even more prevalent amongst, those people playing evil characters. "Good" players are just as prone to playing their character with an ulterior purpose. All that has been achieved by this hostile attitude towards those who create conflict is the punishment of many players possessing good intentions, based on complaints of no value. The game has a set of rules, and a staff to implement them. If there is a player who is breaching those rules, then they should be dealt with, regardless of the type of character they play. It should not be up to the community to implement some sort of pre-screening process.

On the other hand, some players seem to have it in for evil characters simply because they are worried that bad stuff might happen to their character. That fear is ridiculous, and deserves no respect at all. If there must be a witch-hunt, it should be against this type of player: the ones who are using OOC means to hinder conflict within the game. You are playing a roleplaying game. You aren't the only author. You control what your character does, not the circumstances it finds itself in. If you want to determine every aspect of your character's life, go write a book.

While we're on the subject, there is also always this absurd presumption that an evil character is going to be some stereotypical one-dimensional killing machine, as though they think "evil" is going to be the sole personality trait the character possesses. Outside of the odd quest, when have these characters, that everyone seems to worry about so much as to feel obligated to warn against them, ever existed? I've seen plenty of dull and shallow good or neutral characters, but I can only think of a small handful of evil characters who lacked substance. "Evil for the sake of being evil"? When has there ever been a character in this game who that statement could be accurately attributed to? The other classic move is for someone to hurry forward and offer the same tired old nonsense about the subjective nature of "good" and "evil" and claim that it is unrealistic to set out to create a purely evil character. When someone says "I'm going to create an evil character", they are saying "I'm going to create a character who would be viewed by you, I, and almost every other functioning member of society as evil." It really doesn't need to be any more complicated than that. There is certainly no need to inject your highly original Philosophy 101 wisdom here. Of course not every character within the game will actually consider them evil. Of course some characters will choose to join their cause. And of course the character is going to have slightly more depth to it than just "evil".
User avatar
Athian
Posts: 2429
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 7:15 pm

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Athian »

I have a bit to add to the subject but you know Grokk pretty much nailed it right on the head otherwise (if there were a thumbs up button I'd spam the crap out of it)

If you folks want to continue to discuss this topic as it seems to be going well I'll move it to the general forum. Someone feel free to let me know :wink:
Damien
Posts: 7845
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2001 5:59 pm
Location: Vanima and grey Refuge, of course.
Contact:

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Damien »

*bangs head on table*
Please read or at least try to understand something before you shout "shit".

Alright, let's shorten it down so even people who don't really read (or understand) posts longer than a handspan get the meaning.

There's a difference between "evil" characters that are fun for everyone and "evil" characters that are fun for noone but the players themselves and end up being a so-called "pain-in-the-arse" for everyone else.
The difference is caused by how the player plays (or understands) his char.
If a player uses "unfair" methods (OOC informations or OOC timing(i.e. few or only weaker players online), system weaknesses(i.e. jail escapes) and so on) because he wants his evil char to "win" then the char becomes annoying for those the char gets in conflict with.
(AND GETS BANNED in the long run for playing unfair.)

So if you want to play an "evil" char that causes a lot of conflicts, you should make DAMMN SURE to keep a certain distance to the char and not get upset if your char gets ghosted ir imprisioned for bein "evil".
And stay fair.
And don't return from the cross again and again to "harrass" a settlement who's guards / defenders have to do that every bleedin' day (arr).
And don't always use the engine to solve conflicts, use RP.
And don't force it.
And so on.
And stuff like that.
Got it ?
Clear now ?
User avatar
Hew Keenaxe
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

Wow! Damien.
How do you really feel?

Still, you are right.
User avatar
Velisai
Posts: 338
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 3:23 pm
Location: where pigs can fly

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Velisai »

There's a difference between characters that are fun for everyone and characters that are fun for no one but the players themselves and end up being a so-called "pain-in-the-arse" for everyone else.
The difference is caused by how the player plays (or understands) his char.
If a player uses "unfair" methods (OOC information or OOC timing(i.e. few or only weaker players online), system weaknesses(i.e. jail escapes) and so on) because he wants his char to "win" then the char becomes annoying for those the char gets in conflict with.
(AND GETS BANNED in the long run for playing unfair.)

So if you want to play a char, you should make DAMN SURE to keep a certain distance to the char and not get upset if your char gets ghosted or imprisoned for whatever ic reason.
And stay fair.
And don't return from the cross again and again to harass whoever.
And don't always use the engine to solve conflicts, use RP.
And don't force it.
And so on.
And stuff like that.
Fixed that for you. Even got rid of the unnecessary, offensive stuff.
Damien
Posts: 7845
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2001 5:59 pm
Location: Vanima and grey Refuge, of course.
Contact:

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Damien »

How i feel ?
well... usually like -> :twisted:

Shiver me timbers, Velisai. Thankies. Me be feelin' much bettar now. ARR !
Grokk
Posts: 489
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:17 am

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Grokk »

Damien wrote:There's a difference between "evil" characters that are fun for everyone and "evil" characters that are fun for noone but the players themselves and end up being a so-called "pain-in-the-arse" for everyone else.
The difference is caused by how the player plays (or understands) his char.
First, when has there ever been an evil character in Illarion that was fun for no one but the person playing it? People like to throw out this generalisation, but it is simply false. You might not enjoy a character, but someone out there does.

Second, why are you limiting this difference to evil characters? Evil has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of good or neutral characters who are regarded as a pain in the arse by almost everyone other than the person playing them. I'm certain they would far outnumber the evil characters, in fact. Why don't you pre-screen them too?
Damien wrote:If a player uses "unfair" methods (OOC informations or OOC timing(i.e. few or only weaker players online), system weaknesses(i.e. jail escapes) and so on) because he wants his evil char to "win" then the char becomes annoying for those the char gets in conflict with.
(AND GETS BANNED in the long run for playing unfair.)
I made it clear in my post that I agree with this. But again, the problem is not one that is confined to evil characters. The players of good and neutral characters exploit the game at least as much as (and probably far more than) those of evil characters do. People playing good characters who want them to win become just as annoying as any other. Why aren't they met with all of these qualifications?
Damien wrote:So if you want to play an "evil" char that causes a lot of conflicts, you should make DAMMN SURE to keep a certain distance to the char and not get upset if your char gets ghosted ir imprisioned for bein "evil".
Yes, that makes sense. But there are two sides to every conflict. Why is it acceptable to place all of these conditions specifically on evil characters? If someone was to appear on the newbie forum asking for advice about playing a paladin, no one would hurry forward and offer all of this preachy nonsense about playing together and putting others before yourself. No one would respond with "Well if you still insist on playing a paladin, do you understand the game rules?"

Why would we never hear the following quote from you?
So if you want to play an "good" char that gets involved in a lot of conflicts, you should make DAMMN SURE to keep a certain distance to the char and not get upset if your char gets ghosted ir imprisioned for bein "good".
Your only reasoning seems to be that some players of evil characters exploit the game or use OOC information to gain advantages. As I've said, this problem is not limited to such players. The behaviour that you're concerned about is prohibited by the game rules, which should apply equally to all players. If there is an issue with any player, the staff will take care of it. There is no need for all of these unilateral qualifications and restrictions, that only serve to discourage people from playing evil characters and make other players think that they can complain about everything and anything.
Damien
Posts: 7845
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2001 5:59 pm
Location: Vanima and grey Refuge, of course.
Contact:

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Damien »

Where did i say i was "limiting" ?

So, you're just writing to oppose something...

Be Nice. Achae
Damien
Posts: 7845
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2001 5:59 pm
Location: Vanima and grey Refuge, of course.
Contact:

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Damien »

Still, it's going way past the original topic.
User avatar
Achae Eanstray
Posts: 4300
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:03 am
Location: A field of dandelions
Contact:

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Achae Eanstray »

This is a very interesting discussion of evil in the game and I have enjoyed reading everyone's posts. I think it is very informative, thought-provoking and gives different albeit opposing viewpoints to the original title of "becoming evil". I am hoping more players will also contribute their experiences and ideas. As far as moving it or not will leave up to @Athian. :D
User avatar
Fianna Heneghan
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Fianna Heneghan »

No need to take the discussion into the realm of personal attack. There are some really excellent points being made.

I've been gone a long time, but for sure the best times in game involved conflict. Yes, it's important for the players of evil characters to remember that they are playing with others but it's just as important for the players of the good guys to remember that as well. Engine abuse and OOC whining during conflict roleplay spoils the fun entirely no matter which side it comes from.

It's also probably best that those of us who are least active in game offer the quietest opinions on the forums so I'll leave it at that.
User avatar
Athian
Posts: 2429
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 7:15 pm

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Athian »

And now its moved to general, discuss all you like. Keep the language civil and the insults to a bare minimum. You don't have to agree with each-others opinions but feel free to express your particular thinking and be respectful to those that don't agree. Do not make me use the ban stick on ya folks :wink:

Have fun and be productive and all that jazz
Thargon
Posts: 160
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:36 pm
Location: Location Location

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Thargon »

Well I see a lot of people have a wide view to the word "Evil" So i'll add my 3 cents seeing as my post has gone general.

The way I view Evil is that its not so much a person more so an action they have committed that others view as either Inhumane or seriously wrong.
now and then I think a Stereo type villian would be great something to fear when you wander woods alone. which I imagine is different for every one when I think of an evil villain I think hero gone wrong.

So instead of conflicting with so much blah blah there should definetly be some sort of guide on the basis of evil doing which every one agrees on. Otherwise Illarion will be full of one day evil doers who get sick of being treated like trash by all the neutral characters that dabble in a bit of evil stuff when they feel like it.
User avatar
Velisai
Posts: 338
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 3:23 pm
Location: where pigs can fly

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Velisai »

So instead of conflicting with so much blah blah there should definetly be some sort of guide on the basis of evil doing which every one agrees on.
Hell no. More regulation, even if you call it a guide, is the last thing this game needs. Don't choke people's creativity more than absolutely necessary. All that blah is doing much more to make people think about the way they play than any guide ever will and those who don't like discussions are free to stay out of them.
Otherwise Illarion will be full of one day evil doers who get sick of being treated like trash by all the neutral characters...
That falls under character development and in my opinion is very much a desirable aspect of the game. Also, my char has suffered lots of abuse for her nobler deeds, yet never has been punished for any of her countless crimes, including serious ones like kidnapping, assault, attempted poisoning, torture and murder. So I really don't think there is any reason to be concerned about that.
...neutral characters that dabble in a bit of evil stuff when they feel like it.
That's just how people generally are. I have IC reasons for my char's actions and I assume so does everybody else, regardless of ethics. I honestly don't see a problem here.
Thargon
Posts: 160
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:36 pm
Location: Location Location

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Thargon »

Velisai wrote:That's just how people generally are. I have IC reasons for my char's actions and I assume so does everybody else, regardless of ethics. I honestly don't see a problem here.
Yes I also happen to play one and also have IC reasons, I find it one of the best ways to play knowing you could fall either side of the barrel. I don't have a problem with it.
Velisai wrote:Hell no. More regulation, even if you call it a guide, is the last thing this game needs. Don't choke people's creativity more than absolutely necessary. All that blah is doing much more to make people think about the way they play than any guide ever will and those who don't like discussions are free to stay out of them.
I'm not saying guide it's more like hints to play a good evil character which would be helpful seeing as it is a very neglected path.
Velisai wrote:That falls under character development and in my opinion is very much a desirable aspect of the game. Also, my char has suffered lots of abuse for her nobler deeds, yet never has been punished for any of her countless crimes, including serious ones like kidnapping, assault, attempted poisoning, torture and murder. So I really don't think there is any reason to be concerned about that.
I found this rather put me off as i struggled to find a niche where my character could fit and seeing as you have a "good" and "evil" side which seems balanced I would say you seem rather neutral..
Leomar
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:36 pm
Contact:

Re: Becoming Evil

Post by Leomar »

Alight, I've been looking at this topic for too long not to write something....

It is always hard to play chars what are kind of extreme "good" or "evil" because they are going to cause a lot of conflicts and won't easily make friends in a "neutral" world. One really shuld try to keep this point in mind when considering playing a char what already has got such an attiude at the beginning. Playing an "evil" char might even be harder because "neutral" chars will easier understand a "good" charakter and maybe accept him or her.

Both "good" and "evil" chars are for sure needed to cause conflicts in Gobaith. Conflicts are a really nice thing when they have a time limit. Extreme chars going to a settlement and causing trouble there every day for a long time will get on the nerves of their victims. Being robed once is might be a nice occasion for good rp but being robbed once a day for a month might really ruin the game for some players.

The same goes for the other side. The player young "evil" charakter who tries to bring some conflict in the world might lose the fun when he is ghosted twice at his first tries. So let him live and give him a chance to get away by lying at you or something like that.

No one ever came to the island as a perfect fighter or mage, so I think the GMs should neither support the "evil" nor the "good" side but for plots.

Last but not least, it's all a game we play. Try to keep this in mind.
User avatar
Zehshirr
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:41 am

Being sexy is my burden

Post by Zehshirr »

Gonna throw my opinion in here real quick.

I do not believe "evil" characters should have to consent to what other players want. There would really not be any point in playing one then. It is honestly the reason I've never truly gone far with an evil character. People moan too much.
I'm not talking about their characters, characters SHOULD moan. I mean damn, if they didn't I'd think their players were dumbees.
Of course, while I do believe their shouldn't have to be ooc consent for someone's "Evil" character to rob/attack/kidnap etc you, I do believe their is a point where players should draw the line. Attacking one person, over and over? It's not "evil" it's just annoying. Attack them once in a while. Not only does it annoy THEM less, but it gives a lot more of a "Dun Dunn DUNNNNN" feeling when you show up and do something, meaning that it is a lot more fun for you aswell!

As for what evil is.. A lot of people who do not have a lot of experience role playing believe that an evil character is simply someone who shows up and ctrl clicks you. No, wrong! Next player please. Ann evil character should role play. Not just because ol' Zehsh said so, but because it is against the rules to simply show up and attack someone without saying (or emoting) a thing. At least last I checked.

Another mistake people make is that they think they should be evil right from the get go. No, no no. First, you're gonna get clobbered left, right and centre by all the goodie two shoes out there, and second, your characters "reason" for going all nasty is usual a bunch of nonsense about society regecting you. I know that's what my first evil characters reason was, anyway. What should be done is, arrive as a neutral character, but without too many predefined "ideas" on him or her. As you go, you'll find many things that "might" annoy someone, and make it so that they "do" annoy your character. After you're a bit stronger than a basic nublet, you can "snap" at one of these annoying things, getting increasingly irritable and violent. That, atleast, is for the "axe murderer" type villian. I don't really have the skill to play any other type, though I'm trying, slowly.
Post Reply