Where do you draw the line?

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Valen Tiercelion
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Where do you draw the line?

Post by Valen Tiercelion »

For myself, I separate NPCs from player characters and adjust my behavior accordingly. So with NPCs I won't hesitate to act on them unilaterally, but with a player character I'll consider whether the player wants something to happen or not first.

Naturally, this consideration extends to consciously deciding to not ghosting characters. I always stop at the stumbles backwards. And I do this because I know how painstakingly difficult it can be to lose skills, items, and most of all time with a hazy red glare for a screen. To do otherwise would just be an act of aggravation towards the player, and where would the role-play be in that?

Sure, NPCs will ghost you without batting an eye. But then, they are NPCs. Boring, lifeless automatons. I think we all expect more from real characters. So where do you draw the line?
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Kyre
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Re: Where do you draw the line?

Post by Kyre »

I agree it is best not to aggravate another player.. that includes senseless ooc conversation because we are playing WITH each other and not against including not your character against the world in game...well not if you want a lot of roleplay other then fighting. If your character is a "smart mouth" and you prefer to play him/her that way that is no problem as far as in game...however, expect the consequences as a thief or other character not the "norm" would get.

The need to stick to the roleplay is of course looked at, for instance, you have a new fighter and are up against one that has been in game longer and is obviously much stronger then your character... it is pretty senseless to aggravate that other fighter by what you say. or do unless you are playing a crazy character, in that instance it is similar to "asking for it" when I don't think some will back down if done enough times. This is after all a PK game and PK is done with roleplay. To answer your question...normally, yes, I back down however normally my chars would definitely be scared of stronger chars and would show that, if the stronger one.. it would depend on the reaction of the other. I think a lot in other words depends on the reaction of your character. Remember, some actions are "implied consent" a character jeers and acts angry with another it is probably implying "go ahead and ghost me.. I dare you" :lol: Even though it is a game, it still has natural consequences. You go in a place to sit after jeering or mocking someone and expect all forgotten as far as the roleplay.. it is not going to happen.

It is late and I am not sure I said what I wanted to.. possibly will try to add more later but hope this helped. Yes, my chars have gotten ghosted sometimes, sometimes not. Usually the former because I am a slow typer. :wink:
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Valen Tiercelion
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Re: Where do you draw the line?

Post by Valen Tiercelion »

Who in their right state of mind would give consent to someone wasting their time? You? Haha

There needs to be some differentiation between consequences for the player versus for the character, and draining away a player's time doesn't seem appropriate if you intend to act against a character. Further to that, it is very necessary to have this ooc conversation because by its very nature this kind of behavior affects people in an ooc manner.

In fact, many players lose motivation to even play at all when these lines are crossed, which isn't exactly what we want is it? :)
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Kyre
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Re: Where do you draw the line?

Post by Kyre »

Yes, this is the place for ooc and not in game. This thread may be of interest also: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... er#p653317 Death consequences and the VBU.
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Hew Keenaxe
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Re: Where do you draw the line?

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

Hew rarely ghosts anyone anymore. Used to, but I to came to believe it isn't right to do so. (unless not given any easy way out of doing so) On the other hand, Hew gets ghosted somewhat often. I, meaning me- the player of, used to get quite butt hurt about that. No longer, it is part of the game, as I have played it. (not giving anyone any choice but to ghost Hew) Its all good, a judgement call. Give a guy a break if his RP allows it, send him to the cross if it don't. Personally, I try to give every chance to leave alive, battered, :) , but alive.
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rakust dorenstkzul
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Re: Where do you draw the line?

Post by rakust dorenstkzul »

Ghosting is a consequence to losing a fight with an NPC.

To lose a fight against another player, there should be RP'd consequences.
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Qeewee
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Re: Where do you draw the line?

Post by Qeewee »

I try to RP out all fights if I can. If someone however decides to ctrl click me first, I usually emote and then send them stumbling back if I play a powerful character, or emote either attempting to run away or something else depending on the character. If however the person ctrl clicks without any emotes, my character usually returns the favor by sending them to the cross or running away without RP, as why should I take the time to emote when the other person is clearly not interested in the RP part of this situation and just wants to ghost me for possibly ooc reasons? (Because there always seems to be people like blay or people that have grudges against you)
The main game related reason (I also had RL reasons), that I quit playing as actively as I used to and now seldom play, was that someone crossed the line IG. They harrassed me and some other people I used to Rp with as well as some I didn't usually RP with, to the point that some of them even quit the game entirely. Of course these people got a permaban in the end, but the game hasn't been the same innocent RP fun since then. I now see ooc influenced behavior IG everywhere, and it's spoiled a lot of the fun I used to have.

Though I guess I went a bit deep on the topic there, if you're lazy and just read bits of this, here's my answer to hte main thing that was asked:
NPCs I don't care much about unless other players are nearby, then I act accordingly.
Players I attempt to RP with, and I avoid ghosting if possible. Though I don't hesitate to ghost people if they show no intents of willing to RP and are trying to ghost me for ooc reasons.

I'm gonna go back to being inactive now, I've got studying and poor health to deal with...
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Leon Demelii
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Re: Where do you draw the line?

Post by Leon Demelii »

Instead of a ghosting, my orc will happily pee on whoever he beats up. I guess this goes with what Rukust stated.

Now that is good stuff.
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Re: Where do you draw the line?

Post by Flux »

The point at which I would ghost a character is the point at which they roleplay no fear of death.

Though I wouldn't fight in the first place unless someone attacked me first.

Naturally they will begin to fear death if they value their skills and equipment.
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Valen Tiercelion
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Re: Where do you draw the line?

Post by Valen Tiercelion »

There are characters that legitimately do not fear death though. Even in real life, I'm sure you have met those fearless types who wouldn't think twice about putting their lives on the line. They could easily fear other things besides death, however. Death isn't even number 1 when people are polled on their worst fears. Public speaking is :)

So if you were to put a character into an embarrassing situation to strike fear into his or her heart, that it seems would be awesome role-play pregnant with possibilities. When you ghost to unnerve the player though, that appears to be more a form of meta-gaming than anything, if not an ooc act.

It's uplifting to see so many who do draw the line at stumbles backwards though, since this means more opportunities for "risqué" roleplaying, the kind that tends to add life and vigor to the scene, are possible.
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Re: Where do you draw the line?

Post by Flux »

I just disagree. Your body uses pain receptors to associate pain with bad things. If you get stung a lot as a kid, you're going to be disproportionately scared of bees for the rest of your life.

If you ask someone "What's your biggest fear", they're not going to say "Death", they're going to say something trivial like "Spiders", but arguably the biggest human fears are pain and guilt (and guilt is only there as a necessary, slower form of chemical "pain". Since your body can't have receptors that instantly react to something as complex as "I didn't revise for my exam", your body has to use some mechanism to build an association of horrible feeling with the bad action, so you build things like exam dread, which as a memetic is a far more complex emotion than our 60,000 year old genetics could've ever adapted to so fast).

If you asked the same person "Would you rather be held at gunpoint and tortured or do a public speech", it's obvious which one they'd choose; it's not even close.

Imagine the pain of someone plunging their sword into your heart and twisting it, and your lungs filling with blood, and your heart unable to pump oxyhaemoglobin round your body leaves you choking to death on your own blood with your torso ripped open. I'd be careful using even a pin, or a sanding belt, or leaning my hands across some lecher lines or touching a resistor or something because of the minor amount of pain associated with those things, because my body is aware those things bring pain.

If you were painfully killed and then brought back to life by the gods, there's no chance in hell you'd want to die again. You'd be scared as shit of it. That's enough incentive for any character who isn't mentally deluded to fear death. Unless your character has legitimately never had a serious wound, in which case the fear of the unknown should be enough in most cases, your char arguably should fear death. Especially if he's ever been brutally killed.

Of course, newer players or poor roleplayers will ignore this and act like a cocky shit to your character even though you could kill them in 2 seconds flat. It's like they're bullfighting, except the bull is an intelligent human, not a silly animal running at a sheet. I doubt you'd happily go into a rough neighbourhood with a high crime rate and start mouthing off at someone who looks significantly stronger than you. But people do this ingame, because it's a game.

And there's a way to condition bad roleplayers not to do this, if they care about their equipment and skills. When I play illarion with my main, just as a player I play in constant paranoia because I walk round wearing 20 gold of stuff with 3 constitution. I'm always ready to attack because I know it'd be fairly easy for a strong fighter to kill me if they landed the first blow. I fear ingame death as a player, and from a roleplaying perspective my character fears death. He's still a prick because he knows he can get away with it, but he's careful around people who pose a legitimate threat.

If you can make a player fear the engine death of their character, even the worst roleplayer in the world would change their roleplay accordingly.

But my all time illa kill count as a player is less than 10, despite my main character being a full mage and despite playing since 2005. I'm not saying go around killing people who are annoying, but in certain situations when you're attacked first, it's necessary.
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Valen Tiercelion
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Re: Where do you draw the line?

Post by Valen Tiercelion »

I agree people may dislike pain. At the same time though, it's undeniable that many willingly subject themselves to what you and I would call painful experiences and even actively seek them out. Anyone here a thrill seeker? :) Fear of pain hasn't stopped millions from dying for their beliefs either; sometimes in excruciatingly agonizing circumstances like the early Christians experienced.

Humans have the capacity to empathize and project onto themselves the experiences of another like you mentioned. Still, witnessing their closest family members and most dearly loved ones impaled, mauled, and even lit on fire was not enough to force these everyday people to do the easy thing of denying their faith.

You could argue the Illarion gods are not compelling enough to warrant such behavior :wink:, but I'd hope there was something a character would be willing to die for. Where would the force of personality be otherwise?

But back to scaring players. I still maintain that aggravating players is not a good thing because if people got too frustrated it's likely they would just stop playing. You mentioned your paranoia as a player when playing, and I have to wonder how this affects your character's behavior. As for me, I would prefer to be free to role-play entirely according to the possibilities offered by the situation and my character's storyline.
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Re: Where do you draw the line?

Post by Thargon »

Aside from the fear of death and torture and going back to an original question.

I simply give a warning before I do anything that would act against a character I think always giving the option of fighting or running eases the bad feelings between players because they know they had the choice to stop.
Whilst fighting and the characters i play have a very bad temper much like my self and don't stop till one is dead but right before ghosting someone i always give the option of surrender such as " yield now or die" most stop straight away and run those who stay i demand some sort of compensation for beating and i don't bother pulling out the crossbow and nailing them in the back because dying in this game sucks bad :wink: .

and for the guys who ooc harrass you then try to ghost you for no RP reason its simple you reap the consequences of your actions and a nice little perma ban to go with it. plus it's fun to emote something rude and walk off without replying to the ooc chat. :twisted:
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Adronfront
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Re: Where do you draw the line?

Post by Adronfront »

Thargon wrote:I simply give a warning before I do anything that would act against a character I think always giving the option of fighting or running eases the bad feelings between players because they know they had the choice to stop.
Agreed. I always give the other player opportunity(s) to get out of the situation. If they refuse to deal with the consequences.
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Re: Where do you draw the line?

Post by Flux »

There's no question of faith in Illarion because there is only one religion. Noone has to die for their religion because noone is oppressed for it; everyone believes in the same gods.

Strong indoctrination as a reason for a character to be completely unfazed by death, regardless I would argue is mental delusion. I explicitly said "any character who isn't mentally deluded".

And thrill seeking is totally not the same thing as walking up to someone who can easily and painfully kill you in mere seconds and either directly disobeying orders from a figure of authority if you're e.g. banned from a town, or just generally trying to aggravate the person. Unless you're filming Jackass (which I would argue that if they weren't doing it for such large profits would also be deluded), you really have no reason to do that. What's the point of trying to enforce ingame law if upon trying to address it your efforts are brushed away by bad roleplayers with emotes like "#me has the speed and grace of a swan, and dodges all oncoming attacks".

I'm not arguing that a good roleplayer who has a valid reason not to fear death, like they are defending their child with their life or something, should get pked (although in that case I think the whole situation should be roleplay battling, not engine fighting), I'm saying it's perfectly fair to kill the cocky player who's been around 6 months, has started to value his skills and items etc. but throws his weight around and refuses to respond to anything, to teach some humility.

When I first became a GM, I had a greater demon publicly effortlessly sacrifice and perma kill 2 characters (with planned prior player consent, obviously), and the majority people were standing around like:
"k, whatever"

If your character isn't scared of that, you have something to learn as a roleplayer.

Incidentally, when I stated that I've killed less than 10 chars ever in illa as a player, this was pre-coup de gracing. Since the system was implemented where you can knock someone to ground I've never player killed. But that doesn't mean I don't understand the value of the system. It's not there to make monsters the only thing capable of pking, it's there so you can duel, and it's there so you can choose what is a warning and what has consequences.

And to your final point, it does indeed affect my characters' behaviour from an engine perspective. It affects what I equip him with, where I stand him, where I hover my house and the spells I macro. From an ingame perspective it merely reinforces the basic implication: He is an abrasive person who walks around in the most expensive attire money can buy and is extremely physically vulnerable in a land where guards are scarce and weak and law is poorly enforced. If anyone in those circumstances wasn't a little bit paranoid I'd be worried for their safety.

If you are personally worried that your character on a video game might lose some pixels from his inventory or the rgb of a skill on a list might drop and having to wait an hour before you can do things again, imagine how your character should feel about losing his prized possessions, being smacked so hard in the head that he forgets every practical thing he learnt in the past fortnight, getting violently slaughtered and then having to crawl around on the brink of death for 3 hours. If I fear for my character, my character should be 10x as scared.
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Valen Tiercelion
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Re: Where do you draw the line?

Post by Valen Tiercelion »

There is a difference between fear and annoyance.

Most people, I believe are more annoyed than afraid when they lose whatever was helpful for their role-play.

If you play a fearful character, then why not. Quiver and shake ad infinitum.

If someone wants to play a braver sort though, let's make it just as possible.
Last edited by Valen Tiercelion on Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Evan Ross
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Re: Where do you draw the line?

Post by Evan Ross »

If someone chooses to play a brave character, they are most definitely allowed to do so. However if they are brave to the point of laughing at someone who holds a knife to their back, the player should be prepared to accept consequences for said action, in my opinion.
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