VBU Q&A Revisited

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Post by Nitram » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:38 am

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

Current treasure maps will be wiped. Yes. We could leave the old ones behind, but they will not work anymore. So we will wipe them to avoid confusion. There will be new ones how ever. But they will be... more difficult and less predictable.

As for items/tools/weapons... nothing comes to mind right now. I don't think there was even a single one removed.
How ever due balancing changes and changes on how gems are handled in general (technical and balancing) its possible, yet not entirely sure that the magical gems will be wiped. Both the ones in items and the ones outside of items. As there was some bug abuse in the past that resulted in a massive duplication of gems this becomes even more likely. We were never able to fully contain this abuse.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:26 am

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

I'd like to add that druid potions will not work the way they used to, so you might end up with some useless bottles of blue goo as well. But this is not certain, too; on the technical background, special item properties such as druid effects or magical gems are stored in a single parameter of the item atm. This is not very flexible and prevents e.g. storing different parameters with one item. Our developers implemented that you can store virtually unlimited parameters with one item in future, e.g. a special inscription, the crafter, enchantments,... This new system is not compatible with the old system of a single parameter. Maybe a clever way is found to "translate" the old parameter into the new system, but this is not likely for each and every item.

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Post by Ufedhin » Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:59 am

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

What of the alchemists or druids hard won recipes? will these too be rendered obsolete?

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:35 pm

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

For discontinued potions, yes. Like, in future, you won't be able to turn your avatar into a fairy anymore, so the 'recipe' for the fairy potion will be pretty much obsolete. Also, there'll be some fundamental changes to the way how druid potions are brewn, so your old recipes might result in a disaster. But do not fear, the game will become more transparent and you won't have to guess (anymore) how to brew a certain potion; since I am not involved in the development of druidism 3.0, I cannot tell any details.

One should stress that the VBU is still more than some new fancy graphics and paperdolling. Almost no game aspect remained untouched. You can imagine Illarion a new game after the VBU, with many things being rather familiar, but still, different. Keep in mind that the most important aspect of Illarion is not the way how item properties are encoded in the database or how much damage an ornate dagger deals but the roleplaying. For this, we want to provide a platform and this platform will improve vastly. This comes at a cost for players that are used to some ancient relicts of inproper game design but in the end, I am sure the VBU will be a great improvement of the overall game.

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Post by GolfLima » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:36 pm

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

falls ich das jetzt Alles richtig verstanden habe
...
..
.
:arrow: d.h. meine ca. 50 Schatzkarten werden "wertlos" :?: :(
:arrow: d.h. meine ca. 100 Tränke werden "wertlos" :?: :cry:
.
..
...
:arrow: naja, ´mal sehen was meinen Char. noch so erwartet :?:

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Post by Anon of D'Athen » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:21 pm

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

So, as someone who works with medieval armour and weapons on a regular basis (both fighting and making), I can no longer stifle my curiosity- will the weapons and armour be any different? Will archery actually cause significant damage? Will (chain) mail be a viable armour, rather than just something good for someone to use for rp?

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:40 pm

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

GolfLima wrote: :arrow: "wertlos" :?: :(
Grundsätzlich: Ja. Wobei ja absolut nichts dagegen spricht, die Schatzkarten hier und jetzt anzugehen und die Schätze zu heben. Das selbe gilt für Tränke, bis zum VBU können sie ja uneingeschränkt genutzt werden.

Bitte beachtet immer, dass das VBU unzählige Änderungen mit sich bringt, die technische bedingt zu einem Bruch mit dem Altgewohnten führen. Zum Glück ist Illarion kein Spiel, bei dem das 'Grinden' nach Gold und Erfahrungspunkten ein maßgeblicher Spielinhalt ist. Trotzdem werden wir alles daran setzen, jede Änderung so zu gestalten, dass sie nicht in einem groben Widerspruch zum Wissensstand der Charaktere steht.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:44 pm

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

Anon of D'Athen wrote:Will the weapons and armour be any different?
Will archery actually cause significant damage?
Will (chain) mail be a viable armour, rather than just something good for someone to use for rp?
Yes³.

All weapon data was reworked, the whole fighting system was redone from scratch. However, once the release is there, feedback is appreciated. But keep in mind that Illarion is not a medieval life simulation but a game. There will be a use for every type of weapon and armour and no "best" set of very few items that render the rest useless. However, as known from other games, items come in "tiers", a blunt, rusty dagger will never excel a magical flame dagger of doom.

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Post by GolfLima » Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:32 pm

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

GolfLima hat geschrieben:
:arrow: "wertlos" :?: :(
Estralis Seborian hat geschrieben.
Grundsätzlich: Ja
:arrow: macht nichts .... :mrgreen: .... wollte es nur wissen :arrow: kann das VBU trotzdem kaum erwarten :wink:

p.s.
1)außerdem wird dann endlich wieder Platz im Inventar.
2) es hat sich jemand für den "ganzen Kram" gefunden.

8)
Last edited by GolfLima on Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Jupiter » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

Estralis Seborian wrote:druidism 3.0
Alchemy! :D
Otherwise I haven't to add much to what Estralis said. There will be fundamnetal changes in the system - for the better, of course ;) Stuff like labeling your own potions and brewing without having to drag and drop a thousand times are just two examples of the improvements.

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Post by Sir Gnar » Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:17 am

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

As for items/tools/weapons... nothing comes to mind right now. I don't think there was even a single one removed.
How ever due balancing changes and changes on how gems are handled in general (technical and balancing) its possible, yet not entirely sure that the magical gems will be wiped. Both the ones in items and the ones outside of items. As there was some bug abuse in the past that resulted in a massive duplication of gems this becomes even more likely. We were never able to fully contain this abuse.

Nitram[/quote]


Gheesh! I find that quite disturbing for the 99% of players who have rightfully collected them over the years. I thought it was quite obvious to tell what chars were overpowered with lack of IG time giving away their gem abuse and haven't seen any of those types in quite a long while after the ban hammer came down. Now that the gems are further balanced or will be, is it not possible to just inventory a players keep if they message you and replace them with the new ones? I know it seems a bothersome task but its nothing compared to tedious task we have gone through just to collect a few of them. I just think its a rather serious measure to the many longterm steady players. I mean why have i been holding these 3 damn bugged blackstones for 4 years after I heard the VBU was coming to change the world! :shock:


Sincerely, a concerned citizen

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Post by Leon Demelii » Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:44 am

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

Sir Gnar wrote: Gheesh! I find that quite disturbing for the 99% of players who have rightfully collected them over the years. I thought it was quite obvious to tell what chars were overpowered with lack of IG time giving away their gem abuse and haven't seen any of those types in quite a long while after the ban hammer came down. Now that the gems are further balanced or will be, is it not possible to just inventory a players keep if they message you and replace them with the new ones? I know it seems a bothersome task but its nothing compared to tedious task we have gone through just to collect a few of them. I just think its a rather serious measure to the many longterm steady players. I mean why have i been holding these 3 damn bugged blackstones for 4 years after I heard the VBU was coming to change the world! :shock:


Sincerely, a concerned citizen

I do agree with what is being said. I myself, including many other players have spent much time on the magical gem system. I, as a player wish that the time I have put in, isn't taken from me. I do understand some in the past have abused bugs and there are issues brought up by that. Perhaps something to remember is the ones that haven't abused and have gone about it fairly every which way. On the other hand I do understand the VBU is a huge change in everything and many questions can't be answered yet. Though perhaps gems can be returned if lost or cleared. Perhaps taking gems out of items before the VBU can avoid any problems?

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Post by Grokk » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:04 am

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

As Nitram stated, the bug exploitation is not the primary reason behind the possible gem wipe. It is simply one of many factors that will influence their ultimate decision. If the gems are wiped, it will be the result of a significant overhaul to the gem system as a whole. These changes that Nitram referred to would affect the way gems are gathered, as well as how they are used. It is likely that balancing such a system would become a near impossible task if players were allowed to retain their current gem stocks.

It is, of course, acknowledged that some players have invested a considerable amount of time into the current gem system. This fact is not taken lightly and will be given the appropriate weight in making the final decision. But it must also be recognised that a small group of people have spent far more time and effort trying to create an update that will make Illarion a more interesting and enjoyable experience. The modifications to the gem system are being introduced because the people behind the changes believe that they are going to be an improvement to the game. While a solution that is as least intrusive to the players as possible will be sought, if it is deemed necessary to wipe the gems currently held in order for the new system to work as intended, then such a wipe is a very real possibility.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:02 am

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

Well put, Grokk.

I'd like to stress that: We are not just talking about a minor change to the game here but a very big update. There'll be still magical gems in Illarion, but their use, method to get them and effect will change totally. Their whole meaning to the game will change as well. And their technical implementation. It is not the case that we simply "take away" the gems and change nothing on the system, so a wipe is not the right word here... Call it "incompatibility". We cannot simply convert the existing gems to new ones, because they are neither compatible nor is there a direct conversion possible.

In any case - it is important for you to know that the grinding you did to get item XYZ in vast amounts might be in vain once the VBU is there. Not because we wipe items en masse, but this is not what Illarion is all about. The goals you'll have in this game will change; having 100 fire swords won't make you special anymore, maybe not even wealthy. Social aspects will become much, much more important...

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Post by Ezor Edwickton » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:36 am

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

Estralis Seborian wrote: The goals you'll have in this game will change; having 100 fire swords won't make you special anymore, maybe not even wealthy. Social aspects will become much, much more important...
This kind of scares me. Not because I collect 100 fire swords or anything, I rarely get to the place of an "elite" char, but just because I feel like Illarion has lost some of its former 'charm'. I feel like our ig motives are becoming more 'guided' and this shouldn't be. I like Illa as a 'pure' sandbox game. Or maybe it's just because I don't like change, who knows? I feel things such as quests given from npcs and larger number of npcs in general, really aren't doing favors for this game. I don't want to feel like I'm playing a poor clone of WOW (I've never played wow so I might not know what I'm talking about). To me Illa is all about the rp and character development. Not development skill wise, although this is somewhat important, but story wise. I came to this game because it was different and no other game offered such rp immersion. I keep coming back because, as i think most of you will agree, those stories we tell with our characters and the stories we touch through them, become real to us. When we play illa we live through our chars, we laugh with them, become angry, and some of us are even moved to tears at times.
All this is to say I really hope Illarion doesn't lose it's vision, and it's charm. I know that this is ultimately up to us the players to determine, but the game that is developed will ultimately dictate the type of crowd it will draw. I really like to say that I appreciate all the time and effort that has gone into creating, developing, and continuing this game and have the best hopes for it's future.

Also, will we get a list, or overview of the changes to the game in detail so that we don't feel lost when the update occurs? Or does this already exist and I am missing something? Illa has always had the problem of being somewhat intimidating at first and is not known for being very intuitive in the past.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:08 am

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

Very good input!

Maybe I can't put it so well like Grokk because english is not my native language, but I'd like to stress that we try to increase the sandbox aspects, not decrease them. If I state that grinding for 100 fire swords won't be as important as it is today, I want to express that we try to encourage other goals and aspects of the game. Yes, this means that some things get technical support in this context. One example is that a character gets a social status (do not imagine a weird WOW like guild tag, please). This status is, of course, a number in the database but its impact won't be something like +1 on agility.

We want to provide a platform for players that exactly want to do the things they want. Gaining political influence might become much, much more important than now. I mean, who cares who is in charge of Greenbriar now? Or does it matter at all who rules Tol Vanima outside Tol Vanima? This will change and yes, we get, for the first time, some technical toys to help here. If you consider this guidance, well, yes, we'll spark some flames but the blazes are up to you ;-).

On NPCs, I cannot stress this enough, don't imagine the post VBU game as a vast desert of NPCs that send you on inane missions, one after another, all alone, to kill the 20 deadly mummies of doom over and over again or to find the 30 epic lumbs of coal for 100 cp reward. Sure, we'll have such quests to keep new players busy for some hours so they don't abandon the game because they cannot find the O so omnipresent "RP". Getting into contact with other players takes time and the last thing that should happen is that a player is bored. So, yes, killing the mummies of doom (wait - didn't we ALL start out during the good old days with killing mummies in the temple, north of Troll's Bane!?) will be a quest that is available. But the main focus won't be on boring static quests. A player who plays this game for four years might have no interest in them anyway - but remember those days when you were new! And we lack new players.

Actually, there is no comprehensive(!) list of all changes. We have, of course, a huge changelog but I doubt it would help anyone to read e.g. details about the changes to the database structure. A list of the big tasks that are being worked on can be found here:

http://illarion.org/development/us_progress.php

Basically, everything will change. This includes the tutorial, so feel free to play the tutorial once more to learn the ropes. As an example, to use an item, you can double click it. Is that the kind of list you need? Or a list of the new NPC traders?

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Post by Oxi » Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:12 pm

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

Some of Ezor's concerns certainly sound familiar.

Supporting social aspects such as political influence should appeal to a player like myself who is incapable of sustained PGing unless my character has someone to hold their hand :mrgreen:

... so why am I still nervous?
I suppose the idea of anything but free, individually derived, RP originated status fills me with dread.

I would hate to see status become engine derived as a product of quest completion to the point that the easiest way to gain and maintain social acceptance within a faction is to continually perform mundane tasks for NPCs.

Equally though I would not feel secure if status, and therefore potentially freedom in game, was dependent on appeasing designated 'set in stone' faction leaders who may not be representative of the current player base.

Is there any intention to involved comitted players with new or established characters early once the vbu arrives? Perhaps this would help create a closer community and alleviate fears of existing players, thereby offering stability during a transitional phase when you cannot be sure how active old players will be or how long it will take to establish a new player base.

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Post by Ezor Edwickton » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:29 am

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

Estralis you have put some of my concerns to rest for now.

But this 'political influence' thing sounds a little 'guided' to me. Now I can't say this for sure because I know absolutely nothing about it. You guys could have something brilliant in store. I wasn't aware that anything was wrong with the political status ig currently. Yes, most people don't give a crap, but that's true in the real world as it is today. But I'll reserve any judgment on this until I know something, or anything about it.

What i mean by list of changes would include things like how this 'status' system works on a technical level. I don't mean we want to see the code, but just how it works and what it affects. Along these line I think it would be beneficial to add more transparency to other technical aspects of the game. Such things as exactly how stats affect skills such as crafting and combat etc. Things like what kind of effect does strength have on concussion weapons, dexterity on crafting, and essence on magical defense. Sure this is known to certain players but is a closely kept secret to those and has caused a lot of distress to many new players and even intermediate.

Another question I have is will this new Illarion have more things to do for those who choose not to play as combat oriented characters? On of the things that hit me when I was first looking at this game was that it was stated that you could play though your chars whole life without lifting a sword. As it stands today, Illarion is geared (although i believe this may be unintentionally) towards mid to high level combat players who have decent magic defense, like to fish a lot and have moderate perception. Basically fighter/fisherman/treasure hunting class. Sure you can go on making a living as a non combatant player, but there are far more things to do and more coin to be had for those who are combat oriented.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:36 am

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

To answer this question; such a detailled lists does not exist at this moment, but we make many things much more simple. You will have a direct association of attributes to skills. You will know that e.g. constitution is the attribute that influences mining and dexterity helps you with carpentry. This list will be published or, in a later stage, incoperated in the character creation process. A detailed calculation how e.g. strength increases your damage in combat won't be shown (this would equal showing the code) but you can assume that we only use linear functions there.

On the second question, yes, most additional content created is for non combat characters. The issue with current Illarion is that fighting offers a great variety while crafting etc. is pointless. We tried to give crafters more reason to craft, but beating up a mighty demon skeleton in a dark dungeon will always be exciting and we won't do nothing against this. We want the economy to play a more important role, however, our measures were not tested with hundreds of beta testers but we pretty much made up conceptions on paper and we will see how they work out. The VBU is just the beginning, not the end of the development of Illarion as a better game!

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Post by GolfLima » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:26 pm

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

sounds wonderful ..... I´m playing a NON-Fighter and sometimes it was horrible. :cry:
(( making things ... without need or nowbody will by them
unable to earn money
no one will need a crafter ..... --> demotivated .... & more and more it was boring and i didnt got ig ))
:arrow: hope the VBU will come soon :mrgreen:

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Post by Oxi » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:07 am

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

Is there any intention to involved comitted players with new or established characters early once the vbu arrives? Perhaps this would help create a closer community and alleviate fears of existing players, thereby offering stability during a transitional phase when you cannot be sure how active old players will be or how long it will take to establish a new player base.
Perhaps I should try to clarify my concerns... particularly with the direction the VBU quests appear to be taking.

Is there any intention to involve committed and current players in politics at an early stage in the VBU? Surely you risk alienating a sizeable proportion of players if you do not involve all groups in the development of such a key component of the game? If influence, at least initially, is derived solely from limited pool of staff that may not be considered representative of the current player base you will risk excluding players on the basis of timezones, language, and even historical perspectives. Surely now with the VBU in sight it is time to seize the opportunity to achieve that true roleplaying experience of giving any player the opportunity to shape the world around them.

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Post by TiaSarah » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:06 am

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

Agreed, I'm feeling a bit lost and bewildered by these recent quests. Mainly because they've all been held while I was at work, or not announced in enough time to give me a chance to arrange my weekend schedule around them. One of my favorite things about Illarion has always been the availability of the staff and their willingness to listen to the players. The GMs aren't just nameless, faceless bots hidden in a server room somewhere, they are players who love the game as much as we do. I hope that continues and expands with the VBU and that they don't forget this is our game too.

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:30 pm

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

In partial answer to your questions... though this may not affect all. I have been informed anyone can make a player quest that can be tied into the VBU quest and in fact it is encouraged. This would give players some "say" and some options in the next weeks until the VBU. Run the written up plans for the quest past a GM to make sure it ties into the VBU and of course if any GM assistance is needed.

#illarion-vbu is the place to ask regarding your quest and it's relevancy to the VBU

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Post by Grokk » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:17 pm

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

Oxi wrote:Perhaps I should try to clarify my concerns... particularly with the direction the VBU quests appear to be taking.

Is there any intention to involve committed and current players in politics at an early stage in the VBU? Surely you risk alienating a sizeable proportion of players if you do not involve all groups in the development of such a key component of the game? If influence, at least initially, is derived solely from limited pool of staff that may not be considered representative of the current player base you will risk excluding players on the basis of timezones, language, and even historical perspectives. Surely now with the VBU in sight it is time to seize the opportunity to achieve that true roleplaying experience of giving any player the opportunity to shape the world around them.
I'm sorry, but I'm still not quite sure I understand what it is being asked. Hopefully something below hits on your concerns.

There is certainly an intention to involve stable, committed, long-term players in politics from the get-go, as has always been done. It is much more preferable to focus on steady players who are known to consistently log in, as opposed to the type of player who is just as likely to disappear for two months as he is to log in tomorrow. This applies for politics, quests, etc. If someone has shown that they are able to handle the OOC drama and responsibility that often accompanies such things, then they are certainly more likely to be trusted with them.

That said, there must also be another focus early on, that being on new and returning players. Their experience must be made as interesting and enjoyable as possible, to ensure that there is as high of a chance as possible of those players sticking around, and eventually transitioning into the committed, long-term players. Neither focus can (or will) come at the exclusion of the other. As you say, any and all players need the opportunity to shape the world around them, this includes both current and future players. It will always be the actions of the players that are ultimately decisive.
TiaSarah wrote:Agreed, I'm feeling a bit lost and bewildered by these recent quests. Mainly because they've all been held while I was at work, or not announced in enough time to give me a chance to arrange my weekend schedule around them. One of my favorite things about Illarion has always been the availability of the staff and their willingness to listen to the players. The GMs aren't just nameless, faceless bots hidden in a server room somewhere, they are players who love the game as much as we do. I hope that continues and expands with the VBU and that they don't forget this is our game too.
The problem at the moment is that most of the GMs are extremely busy helping to finish off the VBU, and so are unable to get in game on a steady schedule. Many quest announcements can't be made any earlier, as the GMs simply do not have the time to plan that far ahead, or do not know how busy they will be on a given day. Some quests have been spur of the moment events, and so no warning at all has been possible. You can be fairly safe in the assumption that there will be at least one or two events a week, with one generally taking place during the weekend. Often, they will occur during the periods of highest activity, so as to involve the largest number of players.

Of course, the staff is still available, and as willing as ever to listen to the players. If you feel that a particular time zone is being neglected in the VBU quests, then speak up and the GMs will see what can be done. If you'd like to tell them what you have enjoyed about the events, or what you would like to see done differently, again, do so.

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Post by AlexHeartnet » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:13 am

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

Regarding equipment, will the VBU have any kind of indication on how 'good' a certain type of equipment is and what its properties are? Currently players have no easy indication of what an item is designed to do, and after spending a little bit of time asking around it has become quite clear that different weapons and armor do different things. This results in even experienced players not knowing anything about a certain piece of equipment a newer player might happen to have. All you immediately know about an item from looking at it is what condition it is in, and not all weapons are made equal.

This is the only RPG I know of that offers no transparency at all in that regard. Most roguelikes thrive on this sort of 'discover it yourself', and even those types of games will quickly provide you with information on what an unknown item does as you use it. ("This item kills the player when used" is indeed a great deal of info on what a given item does! :P ) Will you be able to see the base stats of equipment, or even failing that a simple text description of the item or a book somewhere details arms and armor?

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Post by Arvemor » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:52 am

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

When!?

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:32 am

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

AlexHeartnet wrote:Regarding equipment, will the VBU have any kind of indication on how 'good' a certain type of equipment is and what its properties are?
We are working on more transparency but a detailed information window for items might not be part of the VBU. However, this is not because we want to continue the "find out the hard way"-approach of the past. Manpower is limited. If anyone wants to give scripting a shot, this might be a good task.
When!?
ASAP. Within a few weeks.

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Post by Banduk » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:29 pm

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

Warehouses
A lot of items are spread in various chests. Do we need to concentrate or will we have all chests available in the future?
Which chest will disappear, if any disapear?
I'd like to collect at least the different silver amount for the trader to have a base stock to rebuild the trading house.
Can I have a bag full of items in the chest?

Warenlager
Eine Menge Items sind in den ganzen Kisten überall auf der Insel verstreut. Muss ich die zusammensuchen oder bleiben alle Kisten bestehen?
Falls Kisten verschwinden, welche?
Ich würde wenigstens meinen Händler mit Startkapital ausrüsten wollen, falls eine Menge der Handelwaren verloren gehen.

Kann ich weiterhin Taschen voll mit Items in einer Kiste liegen haben?

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:39 pm

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

We will reduce the number of depot "systems" to a reasonable number, so you better keep the most valuable items in your character's inventory. A seperate announcement on this will follow up.

Note that, most probably, the mule system will be discontinued, so you won't be able to access your mule depot.

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Post by rakust dorenstkzul » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:40 pm

Re: VBU Q&A Revisited

Estralis Seborian wrote: the mule system will be discontinued.
So we're getting cows back?

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