Does this game matter anymore

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Hew Keenaxe
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Does this game matter anymore

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

I have been gone for about six months. On (joyfully) getting back in game I have noticed a sharp drop in the number of players. I went to the statistics page was shocked. Active accounts have dropped by 50% since I have been here.The current players averages 8 players at any time. We all can't wait for the VBU, but does it even matter if no one plays? My point is,do we lack in promotion of this great game? Are true RPing games not wanted anymore? Are we just hiding in the shadows waiting for that VBU? Whatever it is, a VBU isn't needed if no more than ten players are on any time. What is to hold a new player if they log in and no one is here? I play because it is as close to a tabletop game as I can get with out all the face to face with annoying geeks, in the comfort of my own home. Others have their own reasons for old school RP games. But I am sure they all require participation. I am not suggesting I have a solution, but if things go on as is, we might have a VBU no one cares about. We might have the history in Wiki of the game that almost made it.
And I have to ad this
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Ufedhin
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Re: Does this game matter anymore

Post by Ufedhin »

More players would be great ,however from my point of view having played a number of other old school rp games this is the cream, and i hope to be playing this for a long time to come .
Maybe the promotion needs a bit of amping up (something the player's can do themselves), but all games wax and wane even great ones .
I recently brought a new player in and he loves it .
Who know's when the next surge of new players will push active numbers up again, but it will happen.


My beer mug's always half full.

Uffe' :D
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Juliana D'cheyne
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Re: Does this game matter anymore

Post by Juliana D'cheyne »

Real life tends to pull some away for awhile. When they come back sometimes they find the game, characters they knew have changed. Some stay, some go away again. For those that give it some time and stay, they find new characters and players along with some old ones they may not have met previously. As far as the statistics, I am an optimist.
Zak
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Re: Does this game matter anymore

Post by Zak »

You really aren't the first to notice the lacking numbers and it's been discussed/commented a thousand times, I don't see what good another thread on this topic will achieve but I'll leave it so more can voice their frustration, I guess I can relate to it a wee bit. ;)
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Does this game matter anymore

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Hello,
the staff is aware of the dropping player numbers, not just since yesterday but we saw a drop in the relevant indicators around three to four years ago. Fundamental discussions were started and a massive campaign was started to improve the situation; first by making up concepts, also by providing the necessary tools (easyNPC! easyQuest! Who cares knows them!) and then, by making the decision that we need a radical rework of the whole game, not just some individual aspects. This rework became a little overwhelming, keeping in mind that this game is developed by just a couple of persons in their spare time. Thus, the VBU is delayed and overdue.

Illarion lacks promotion, thus, we installed the promotion board. Again, who cares knows this. Nevertheless, we cannot expect a casual player to invest his spare time into the project Illarion. But we know that there are many players who care, who want to help the game but rarely do they take any action. We have a problem of "leverage": We have few developers and they, well, develop in the spare time they have for Illarion. We cannot, must not, burden them with tasks like promotion or trivial things like writing dialogues for NPCs that send you on the glory mission to gather ten cherries and kill five mummies. This means that only a very small workload is invested into hireing new developers or attracting players, resulting in an even reduced "pool" of persons who could stand up and say: "I help Illarion."

I think for many, it is a problem not to see results, despite the promotion video and the opportunity for everyone(!) to log in to the testserver, download the latest nightly built of the new client and behold everything.

Illarion needs you. Will you help Illarion?
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Velisai
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Re: Does this game matter anymore

Post by Velisai »

I never really understood why we need more NPCs and static quests. There are thousands of other games out there, which have them. There are even more offline, single-player games, which rely on them.
I play this game and not some other for a single reason: interaction with chars, who are played by people. If I want to talk to a machine, I have tons of better options than Illa. I am concerned this will become another game like all those so called MMORPGs, a lame, boring, repetitive string of 'kill this and bring me that' missions.

Yes, real RP is not popular, it doesn't attract the masses, but why do we need 1000+ players anyway? Most fun I had in this game was always in situations where no more than 5 chars were involved. Often I'm fine with a single other char to talk to at a time. The way the player count is dropping is reason for concern, but I don't think >500 players would do this sort of game any good either.

Please don't take this as pissing over your hard work, Devs. I very much appreciate the effort to make the game more enjoyable through improved graphics, game balance, bug fixes, etc. These are just my observations, from my limited perspective. I wrote this, because I know there are others with similar concerns and hope you can address them one way or another.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Does this game matter anymore

Post by Estralis Seborian »

VBU != NPC quests

Just to give you an idea what we're working on:
  • Totally reworked skill learning system
  • All crafting processes redone
  • Reworked fighting and magical gem system
  • Complex faction and guild management system
  • All monster spawns, stats, drops redone from scratch
  • All merchant NPCs redone from scratch with reasonable distribution of goods over the map
  • Complete, fixed and binding price list for all items
  • Rework of all item stats such as weight, volume, weapon stats, armour values...
  • Automated town guards
  • New tutorial
  • Fix for countless bugs
  • And last, not least: A new client with tons of awesome features
The reason why some might get the impression that the VBU is "just" about NPC quests: This is the field the developers need most help with because they cannot do all on their own. Writing dialogues for some simple newbie quests or coding a brand new trader interface - what should Nitram do? Do you want a "kill ten mummies" quest from martin or paperdolling? Should vilarion improve the server's performance and prevent any server crashes in future or should he write cycletexts for Borgate such as "Arr!", "Arr?" and "Arr."? I don't want to say that NPCs and their quests are unimportant, it is vice versa: They are an important part of every successful online roleplaying game - those who are not successful have few to none, easy correlation. So, whenever you decide to help the team, it might be first thing you should do. You get results in a quick way and you can be sure that your work is not in vain and will be part of the VBU. You have to invest just one or two hours and you have a fully functional NPC with a couple of quests. Ask Nitram how many hours it takes to code a simple message box for the client ;-)!

You also learn fundamental things by writing NPCs: How the database works, the coordinates of the map, how a script looks like, what is possible and what is not,... Of course, the game will change with the VBU and some won't like this. But: The current game, like it is, is not liked by many as well, so they leave. And what is even worse: Less and less players join the game. We cannot force anyone to play this game forever, people will always leave. But we need more people to give Illarion a chance, to check it out. This can only be achieved by a good first impression (screenshots, homepage, description, feature list) and, most importantly, promotion! Who does not know about Illarion cannot play it!
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Velisai
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Re: Does this game matter anymore

Post by Velisai »

I know that the VBU is much more than NPC quests and I look forward to most of it.

The main question was why do we need NPC quests at all?
How many of our players even cared to do the quests we already have?
How many of those who did have enjoyed it?
What sort of target audience is post VBU Illa intended for?
They are an important part of every successful online roleplaying game - those who are not successful have few to none, easy correlation.
Correlation is not necessarily cause and consequence. Why do those games have few NPC quests? Are they just unfinished or do they rely on other features to keep players active?
What makes a game successful? Playercount? The total time people spend on the game?
Can those other games you mention be called RPGs at all or are they solely about leveling/doing NPC quests?

Many players we have found a niche here, they say cannot be found anywhere else. Many left because it was too time consuming. Others left because of things like this:
Illarion is a game that benefits from the freedom a player has to shape the game world around him. But this freedom also means responsibility. Since some players cannot handle this responsibility we had to take this measure.
Why not talk to the players in question instead of limiting that freedom for everyone?
binding price list for all items
Any reason for this?
Automated town guards
Why?

The idea that you could actually change the ig world as a player was always fascinating. That freedom was in fact always very limited and now the idea seems to have been thrown out the window entirely.
Of course, the game will change with the VBU and some won't like this.
Homepage wrote:The decisions that you make while playing Illarion will actually impact and shape the world around you. Your actions will determine the events that will one day fill the pages of Illarion's history books. All of the characters that you shall encounter during your time here are just like yours: living, breathing inhabitants of this mysterious world.
Will this change?
Enviyatar
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Re: Does this game matter anymore

Post by Enviyatar »

Velisai wrote: The main question was why do we need NPC quests at all?
There is a simple idea: To keep new players busy.
We noticed that most new players log in, run around, don't meet any other players, see nothing else to do, get bored, log off and say good bye for ever. We, therefore, decided to use quest-npc to keep them busy until they meet other players. It is not the intention to have all these quest-npcs for players who can keep themself busy like you and other older players. Almost all of these quest-npcs have mainly simple quests and shall help to introduce the world to new players or enable players to trade or supply them, etc.

Thanks for reading,
/Enviyatar

PS: For further questions & answers, please see: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... &hilit=vbu

EDIT: I removed the second part of my post. I am sorry for the aggressive ton and the anger that it caused. It wasn't my intention.
Last edited by Enviyatar on Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Vilarion
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Re: Does this game matter anymore

Post by Vilarion »

Velisai wrote:
Homepage wrote:The decisions that you make while playing Illarion will actually impact and shape the world around you. Your actions will determine the events that will one day fill the pages of Illarion's history books. All of the characters that you shall encounter during your time here are just like yours: living, breathing inhabitants of this mysterious world.
Will this change?
Fear not! :D

Actually the possibilities to shape the game will increase a lot. They will also be more organized by an active and structured GM-Team after the update. Politics will play a bigger role than now.

While we create the game in our free time, of course player input is important and taken into consideration by the senior developers. There was a time when we (regretfully so) built features for features' sake (wild fires, flues, ... :P) but this will not happen anymore. We critically weigh the benefit of everything we build. And while we cannot please everybody, we try to change the game so that you will enjoy it even more after the update, no matter if you are a casual player or a sworn role-player.
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Achae Eanstray
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Re: Does this game matter anymore

Post by Achae Eanstray »

Further questions or concerns about the VBU can be added here: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... =1&t=37017
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Velisai
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Re: Does this game matter anymore

Post by Velisai »

Thank you both. That answered all my questions and I'm sure helped alleviate others' concerns as well. Glad to hear that Illa is still going in the same general direction.
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PurpleMonkeys
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Re: Does this game matter anymore

Post by PurpleMonkeys »

I must say, when I was new, I did all of the NPC quests, or tried to. It kept me busy until I learned where to find people to RP with. New players don't know all the 'hot spots' that people go to. :P
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Re: Does this game matter anymore

Post by GolfLima »

Ich habe nur den Quest mit Hauptmann Arkos Selderan gemacht. (zufällig)
:arrow: "damals" waren die Spots für RP noch einfacher zu finden, bzw. mehr besetzt
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Does this game matter anymore

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Velisai wrote:What sort of target audience is post VBU Illa intended for?

We are aiming at relaxed, true roleplayers that play Illarion in a lenient, casual way. We want to offer a "niche" for all those who want to play a game that is centred around plotlines, stories, myths and legends rather than grinding. Many technical changes as well as ingame measures will support this. We are not aiming at 24/7 2nd life players nor professional monster bashers nor hardcore hair comb emoters but of course, they are welcome.

What makes a game successful? Playercount? The total time people spend on the game?
Can those other games you mention be called RPGs at all or are they solely about leveling/doing NPC quests?

There are many successful games around that enforce roleplaying. Some have very similar conceptions like Illarion. Many commercial games have dedicated RP servers and there are also tons of so called free shards, private servers for known games. Many of them have many more players than Illarion. Yes, a game is successful if many players of the target audience are playing it. Illarion is played by very few players and the numbers are going down, so Illarion is currently not successful. And fear not, we do not aim at 1000 players at the same time, the server cannot handle this, anyway ;-).

Many players we have found a niche here, they say cannot be found anywhere else.

That is exactly what we want to provide: A niche for players who do not prefer asia grinder games or seven hour raids but a game that is focussed on true roleplaying and a game that won't rip off your head if you don't invest 15 $ a month and 40 hours a week to rise a level. Illarion will always be a niche game, but currently, we do not reach our target audience. Many reasons for this are of technical nature or content related (bad tutorial, bugs) but also, one has to admit that Illarion is kinda boring. We want to achieve that you always know what to do once you log in and that you always have goals you can pursuit. And no, those goals are not "level 28" or "500 gp".

Why not talk to the players in question instead of limiting that freedom for everyone?

Concerning permanent changes of the map we decided that such things are done best in cooperation with the gamemasters and that all methods offered in the past are too abuseable. It is the responsibility of the developers to offer a game that is free of abuseable features and known inbalances and players cannot be blamed for using them.

binding price list for all items - Any reason for this?

With a binding price list I mean a list of prices that is used by NPCs. Player to player trade is not affected. But of course, you can orientate on the NPC prices. Currently, the NPC prices are just some random numbers, in future, a sword that has a higher price can be expected to be better than a cheap one ;-).

Automated town guards - Why?

Firstly, this is a very common and old request from the players. An automated guard could deny access to a town for certain characters. Sure, this might reduce the potential for conflicts within the walls of a town, but since we have some very complex "plan" for such things, it is mandatory to have a way to manipulate such things. In future, the GMs will be involved much more into the actual ingame events, vilarion alread revealed that. Politics and ingame affairs will be initiated by GMs but it is of course you, the players, who actually play out the events. We just throw in keywords from time to time in case nothing is going on instead of players picking cherries and bashing monsters for loot ;-).

The idea that you could actually change the ig world as a player was always fascinating.

Indeed - and as vilarion stated, we are trying to strengthen this. We want to involve players much more into the ingame events, we want to have global events instead of "just" two players plotting their own stories. You can and may still do this, no limits to this, but we want to provide hooks you can base your own stories on and not "just" a map with some houses on it you can play in.

The decisions that you make while playing Illarion will actually impact and shape the world around you. - Will this change?

See above. Keep in mind that the new homepage text is, well, kinda new and this is the direction we are aiming at. If we'd plan the opposite, well, wouldn't we change the homepage text in a different way ;-)? Of course, we need the support of the players in this effort, in other words, if players don't want to have an impact on the world, we cannot force them. Who wants to sit in a remote corner of the map, all alone, may do so, but we prefer to involve all players into the events of the world.
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Re: Does this game matter anymore

Post by martin »

Thanks for providing all the answers I would have given myself!
However, I'd like to add some minor thoughts not expressed so far:

If you had some of your nicest Illarion-experiences being together with only 2-5 other chars, then think of the low probability for a randomly walking newbie in an empty world to meet another randomly walking newbie. Think of the time such a newbie would walk around meeting nobody (because there are, let's face it, only 0-5 other characters online!) and how long it would take to bore him to death (=logout)?
Think of all the people (thousands of them!) who tried out Illarion, met nobody and therefore logged out forever that it took to have the 2-5 of you staying! The odds are against people usually, only a few are lucky enough to meet player-characters within their "acceptance-span" playing the game alone and experiencing nothing but plain emptyness. How many good players where there among those thousands of players that had to die (=log out forever) in order for you (and the other 2-5 playing and meeting).
These are the ones we intend the VBU for. Not the ones who were lucky, who had the odds in their favor, but the majority of those who were just the randomly walking newbies, logging out after 1 hour of boring, lonely walking in the plains of Illarion.

Once there are enough players to have a high probability of meeting someone when you're a newbie, well, screw all those NPCs.

Martin
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Re: Does this game matter anymore

Post by coldspark »

Also, once upon a time, there were only about 12 people on at any given time, and it made for a great community. I think it's always been a small group.

Plus, fewer targets for moshran to red skelly at. :P
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Does this game matter anymore

Post by Estralis Seborian »

We'd be happy to have twelve players online at any given time... We are way below that.

On the original question; is there still a place in this world for a game like Illarion? There are countless games you can play on the internet, many call themselves "RPG" or "MMORPG". You can play them for free, many games are "free to play, pay to win" games. So, you can check out really great games totally for free and before you realise you cannot play beyond a certain level without paying many many bucks, it is too late ;-). Those games sometimes feature dedicated RP servers where roleplaying is (in theory) enforced but in any case, encouraged. To name a few games like theses: Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Age of Conan and Runes of Magic. Those are real competitors, not "just" vintage games like Tibia and Runescape. And there is not much we can offer for those who are into these games.

So, we have to offer something those games do not offer. Those games give a damn about individual players, the world won't change because of your actions. Thousands of players do the same static quests over and over again and nobody notices. Illarion has to be different: Your actions have to have an impact on the events of the whole game. Thus, it does not help at all to have a small clique that "does RP" but we have to incoperate every character into a net, a web, that connects all characters and also, players. But to make this true, we need players! A plan like this cannot work out with ten players with five out them sitting in a remote corner, talking about their latest relationship problems and the other three hunting monsters or crafting useless junk, all alone. Without interaction, this game is doomed and thus, we need to strengthen, no, enforce interaction between as many players as possible.

In conclusion; if anyone believes that the staff wants to turn Illarion into a WOW clone, he does not understand the intentions of the developers. It is simply impossible to have a WOW clone with half a dozen of volunteers, developing a game in their spare time. And no, Illarion won't "just" be a game with "enforced roleplaying", dozens of other games offer that, too. We need to go one step further, one step beyond the obvious. Still, we have to do our homework and present a game that has at least the most basic features someone of our target audience(!) expects. And we have to offer more, not less than that.
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S'rrt
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Re: Does this game matter anymore

Post by S'rrt »

I find that no matter how few players there are this game still matters to me. You don't need masses of players to have satisfying RP. I am however going to advertise the game to my friends again. I do it from time to time.
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Leon Demelii
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Re: Does this game matter anymore

Post by Leon Demelii »

S'rrt wrote:I find that no matter how few players there are this game still matters to me. You don't need masses of players to have satisfying RP. I am however going to advertise the game to my friends again. I do it from time to time.

I concur.
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