Illarion Review

Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.

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Post by Robert_Thwaite » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:53 pm

Illarion Review

Hello All,
I have read and watched the video for the Illarion review at http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/06/17 ... -illarion/ and unfortunately some of the reviewers comments are valid.

With regards to the game i doubt there is anything much that can be changed without hindering the release of the VBU which in my opinion is an option that should be avoided at all costs.
However there is much that can be changed with regards to the website that can turn the negatives into positives, A few examples of this could be:

A list of the NPC commands (There is one on the forum somewhere but it could also be integrated into a newbie section of the site)
A more detailed overview of the UI
Explanations of crafting and fighting
Movement and key mapping (Such as Shift + Arrow to turn on the spot)
Runes (Druid and Mage) and how to use them.

These could be done in the form of screenshots, videos and walkthroughs.

Any feedback and assistance from yourselves would be appreciated but please avoid comments such as "I know this" as it is not meant to be a guide for the established players but a guide for the new players and remember not EVERYTHING is a FOIG issue.
Also, considering the fact that many characters are adults with some form of background story to them on their arrival to Gobaith, it would be a bit ignorant if we was to reply to every request for help with the phrase "FOIG"

Please feel free to leave your input here and on the IRC channel where I can be found under the name Raelith

EDIT: By the way, I am not asking you to do it all for the site as i am willing to take care of it myself if you don't feel like it, I am merely just asking for ideas and suggestions

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Post by rakust dorenstkzul » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:55 pm

Re: Illarion Review

Open Client

Press F1

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Post by Nalzaxx » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:22 pm

Re: Illarion Review

rakust dorenstkzul wrote:Open Client

Press F1
If you bothered to actually watch the video before giving oh so helpful advice, you would see that he looks through the manual but it doesn't help at all.

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:01 pm

Re: Illarion Review

My immediate reaction is the man says he spends 10-15 hours on a game. It sounds on the surface, he spent most of it at Newbie Island which is the first disadvantage to Illarion as a whole at this point. My second reaction is:
A list of the NPC commands
A more detailed overview of the UI
Explanations of crafting and fighting
Movement and key mapping
and maybe some runes..... will be changed with the VBU


Would it be best at this late date to simply take out Newbie Island from new chars and go back to them simply appearing in the game (Trolls Bane only) so players/GM's can help with the controls and answer questions?

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Post by Robert_Thwaite » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:22 pm

Re: Illarion Review

Achae Eanstray wrote:My immediate reaction is the man says he spends 10-15 hours on a game. It sounds on the surface, he spent most of it at Newbie Island which is the first disadvantage to Illarion as a whole at this point. My second reaction is:
A list of the NPC commands
A more detailed overview of the UI
Explanations of crafting and fighting
Movement and key mapping
and maybe some runes..... will be changed with the VBU


Would it be best at this late date to simply take out Newbie Island from new chars and go back to them simply appearing in the game (Trolls Bane only) so players/GM's can help with the controls and answer questions?
I know he did spend a lot of time ingame and eventually managed to leave Noobia.
I was the one trying to "assist" him to the town where he may find some people to talk to. However in that time a monster managed to find him before he found the town and he then spent several long minutes looking for the cross.

Also it wouldn't be fair to only allow access to Trolls Bane as a new player as many races may wish to start in their race-specific areas (Briar for example) which on another note is something that should be looked at for different reasons.

While the current argument for any ideas like this is that the VBU is due imminently unfortunately the fact of the matter is that these are issues that are a concern... Now.

Any information on the site can and will be changed to reflect the VBU but it is unfair to hinder new players progress (and potentially make them leave) because everything stops while everbody holds their breath in anticipation for the VBU.

As i said before. Actually taking a dev away from the VBU to fix these issues is a big no-no so it wouldn't be an option to change scripts and such IG.
However we do have an experienced and opinionated player base that can help alleviate some of the issues that new players face upon starting to play the game.

Also if you notice in the review he states:
"Once I got out into the real world, seeing "there are four other players online" in the information window made me realize that I would probably never see another player in the game."
So even if we were to put him into Trolls Bane directly there may be a chance that not only could he "not" be better off but he could also in fact be "worse" off because, as an example, how often do you see swarms of insects and such hovering around Trolls Bane and if he or any other player for that matter didn't have a clue about combat it would likely end in a bad way...

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:28 pm

Re: Illarion Review

Keep in mind that the UI with all the keys, crafting, fighting and even NPC commands will change drastically with the VBU. All this shall be explained by a tutorial that deserves this name. So, if you want to help, help the tutorial ;-).

Also: 10-15 hours are a lot. Most players spend 10 seconds and are gone for good. You never get a second chance for a first impression ;-).

PS: Of course, a simple "reference card" with the most basic game commandos on the homepage can help the current situation. Just don't spend too much time on it ;-).

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:33 pm

Re: Illarion Review

The fly swarms etc. can easily be removed from town, the "four player online" issue...most of us can figure out about what time of the day that was/usually is. If this "10-15 hour" was spread out more during that day rather then mainly on Newbie Island, he would have seen more players. Typically in the past, new players, no matter the race, were directed to Trolls Bane on the theory that it was easier then some deserted island to find players to ask for help.

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Post by rakust dorenstkzul » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:37 pm

Re: Illarion Review

Nalzaxx wrote:
rakust dorenstkzul wrote:Open Client

Press F1
If you bothered to actually watch the video before giving oh so helpful advice, you would see that he looks through the manual but it doesn't help at all.
You know i didin't, baby.

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Post by Uhuru » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:01 pm

Re: Illarion Review

Evie and I tried to bring in a few friends to the game. Getting them through noobia while talking them through it and guiding them with a character we had in noobia at the time was difficult. They struggled. I don't know if it was noobia itself or that the controls are just inherintly difficult to learn. For me, it wasn't that it wasn't intuitive... it was that there was just so much to learn and no place to just practice. I was just eager to get in game and get going. For my friends, it was confusing which things you clicked on the tool in hand and which you clicked on the oven for example. And you are trying to learn so much at one time and coordinate movement and many controls all at once. They grew frustrated and quit.

Getting in game first....
1) There aren't many PO's now, but they would all be offering "advice" and that would or could be a little overwhelming to some people. Especially as some PO's don't have much in the way of the right temprament for it. And when that number increases as more PO's return, hopefully someday, it will become more overwhelming. Often "advice" isn't given as a suggestion or helful hint, but as a command or in a demeaning way, making the PO resent the one giving it. (Trust me on this one.)
2) Characters stay in character. They don't suddenly become helpful just because a new PO shows up. Or, worse yet, they will take advantage of or hurt a new PO.
3) Some PO's simply may not want to train new PO's.

However, I like the idea of getting them in game if we can have friendly people around to help them answer questions and teach them the ropes. This is the real issue, is how to ensure people will be available to help.

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Post by TiaSarah » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:28 pm

Re: Illarion Review

I agree that noobia can be a bit overwhelming, I tried it again after I'd been a player for a while, and it still made no sense. Generally it may be best to read the manual and skip noobia. Always more fun to figure it out IG anyway :p As for your other points:

1) Some of us are always willing to help a new char, but I try to wait until they ask. Whether it be and IG question about where something is or an OOC one about how exactly to do something. I think if we just let the new POs breathe and explore and only help when asked they might enjoy it a bit more.

2) Perhaps I am misunderstanding you here. But doesn't this point contradict your first? Does jumping out of character to help them overwhelm them, or does staying in character hurt them? I definitely don't agree with taking advantage of a new PO or being rude about a valid OOC question. But, if the character is not particularly friendly to begin with, I see nothing wrong with them staying in character while dealing with a new character. As in the real world, not everyone is going to be super friendly and jump to help you. The occasional rough character adds to the game in my opinion.

3) Very true. I try to be helpful when asked, but isn't it the right of a PO to refuse? If we force older POs to train new ones, they may lose interest in the game and quit playing. Isn't that counterproductive? Especially when we can't agree if the help is helping or overwhelming. Going back to my point above, I don't think it's right to take advantage of new players, but not everyone wants to hold their hand. Forgive me if I sound callous, but I'm simply playing Devil's Advocate here.

There's my two copper.... Fire at will. No really, fire at PO Will (forum name not PO William) and get his rear back IG :P

Oxi

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Post by Oxi » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:42 pm

Re: Illarion Review

Well that was rather painful to watch... interesting find though and I have to agree many of the comments are completely valid.

Over time what I have found is the information is often somewhere but it can take time to get to what you need and most newcomers just won't have the patience. As we need to hang on to all the people we can, anything that pulls that basic information together has to be a good thing. Obviously with the VBU coming any improvements need to be proportional to their longevity though, so if you are talking six months or less there is no sense in people spending weeks and weeks on these things. A list of basic commands and some video walkthroughs for basic crafter, fighter, mage, and druid actions available from the homepage should be an achievable project though and may even spawn some ideas/involvement that can be carried through to help with the VBU.

Partly integrated with this, I do think the CM role should be better utilised and that group bolstered to try to encourage new players to stay and get involved in the role play. Again, I hope this is a role that will be carried through with the VBU as at times it seems undervalued.

I have to admit I have put in a new char or allowed a forgotten old one to be 'led' from time to time just to see what the current 'experience' is like and sometimes the impression given is rather alarming. If this is not done carefully it could scare new players off. Don't know if it is just me but if I wandered into a new town and someone came up and demanded my name I would just be wary... these things are better integrated into the role play surely?

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Post by Leon Demelii » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:36 pm

Re: Illarion Review

I really have no comment on this at all.

Other than: I stopped watching after 12 minutes because I wanted to stab myself in the ears and eyes because this review was so crappy and wrong. A week is NOT enough time AT ALL. Good job on that fella.

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Post by Grokk » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:10 pm

Re: Illarion Review

Leon Demelii wrote:this review was so crappy and wrong.
In what way was it wrong?
Leon Demelii wrote:A week is NOT enough time AT ALL.
That's a problem with the game, not with the reviewer.

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Post by PurpleMonkeys » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:20 pm

Re: Illarion Review

If I'm understanding you right, it's not a good thing if it takes a week to see the good stuff either.

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Post by Leon Demelii » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:24 pm

Re: Illarion Review

Grokk wrote:
Leon Demelii wrote:this review was so crappy and wrong.
In what way was it wrong?
Leon Demelii wrote:A week is NOT enough time AT ALL.
That's a problem with the game, not with the reviewer.

It's sad if you actually agree with him and are going to argue with a player who loves the game.

The reason a week is not enough time is because the game is so fecking big. There is so much to see and do. If you are saying that's a fault... I'm not going to bother even answer your first question.

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Post by Qeewee » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:09 pm

Re: Illarion Review

Warning: A lot of text ahead, which most of you will probably not read, as it's much easier to just read the short replies and catch a drift of what's being discussed before leaving the topic or replying.

Some of my opinions of all this:

Noobia: should be removed, reworked, and placed back in until we have a bigger playerbase atleast. It is very bad and misleading as it is, and only utterly bored people or very committed people actually get through it most of the time.
My first experience of the game: I was lucky and figured out how to work the controls right away myself, and landed in the middle of a big GM vs players war in trollsbane, so I had a good experience of the RP and engine right away which is the reason of why I'm writing this right now so many years later.

My experience of helping other players: There are many ways of helping new players. Some just need a little time for themselves to explore the game before getting help, which is why giving advice right away is a bad idea if they don't ask. Others are confused and afraid to ask, which is when you need to ask them if they need help, which makes it a lot harder to help new players, as some want help, some don't, and knowing which is which is difficult, so you may be the reason someone stays as well as the reason someone leaves. Another experience of helping new players I had was being met by very rude language and behavior, luckily most of those got themselves banned (I say luckily as I myself, and I would guess most of you, wouldn't want those people around anyways)

About the review itself, perhaps we should copy the link to this topic into the comments, so anyone reading that is interested could have themselves a look at some of the thoughts of the players that stayed. As PO Robert said though, he does have some if not many valid points, even if many are false.

Illarion has many faults that scare people off, as new players as well as most of us would want a big welcoming community at the size of WoW that practiced perfect roleplay at the same time as having quests 24/7 and a perfect hack&slash, grinding and item system that suits all our needs so we would never have to visit other games, try out our patience, deal with troublesome people we do not like or go back to this odd myth named "RL".

And with that I think I'm done writing this.. I applaud you if you've actually read through it all, and hope the ones that will deal with this found any help in what I just wrote and what you just read.

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Post by Grokk » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:34 pm

Re: Illarion Review

Leon Demelii wrote:It's sad if you actually agree with him and are going to argue with a player who loves the game.
Blind loyalty is not something that should be praised. Illarion is a great game. The experiences that I've had while playing put it up there amongst my favourites. But that is no reason not to point out the game's flaws.
Leon Demelii wrote:The reason a week is not enough time is because the game is so fecking big. There is so much to see and do. If you are saying that's a fault... I'm not going to bother even answer your first question.
In terms of scale, Illarion is relatively small. Compared to other games, there isn't that much to see or do at all. The only thing that gives Illarion its depth is the roleplay. And it shouldn't take a week of playing in order to experience some of that. Other games are quite capable of being reviewed after 10 hours of gameplay; there is no reason that Illarion should be an exception.

If it does take over a week for a new player to properly experience the game, then clearly we've got a major problem. Because, as the review shows, new players are struggling to make it through the first hour of the game, let alone the first week. As Estralis stated above, most people new to Illarion aren't even as forgiving as the reviewer was.

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Post by Robert_Thwaite » Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:45 pm

Re: Illarion Review

Leon Demelii wrote:A week is NOT enough time AT ALL.
This was one of the things i discussed with the man in IRC as he was getting killed but he stated that
A) That was the time limit his boss sets for each game that he reviews
B) It is a review purely on the first steps and the layout of the game. Anything past a week IG you are not necessarily a newbie as you have got to know the area and the people.

He did also give some positive feedback and he did say that the game was good considering it is a volunteer based project with no paid employees

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Post by Dyluck » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:22 pm

Re: Illarion Review

I'll add to the pile first by mentioning that I also could not for the life of me figure out how to get off the newbie island when I tried a few months ago. But I notice now there's an option at character creation to spawn in a town, so I'm glad.

Robert_Thwaite wrote: EDIT: By the way, I am not asking you to do it all for the site as i am willing to take care of it myself if you don't feel like it, I am merely just asking for ideas and suggestions
Seems your offer was buried by the review discussion, so let me dig it up and give you my thumbs up. If you feel that you can make a better tutorial/manual, then I encourage you to just do it and I'm sure the dev team would be happy to use it or put it on the site.

However, I think what's needed is a shorter and more concise information about the interface and basic controls, rather than a 19 page manual. If you do put more details, I suggest to make the table of contents a clickable link to each section and sub section, rather than like the current manual which makes you scroll up and down through 19 pdf pages.

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Post by Robert_Thwaite » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:03 am

Re: Illarion Review

Dyluck wrote: However, I think what's needed is a shorter and more concise information about the interface and basic controls, rather than a 19 page manual. If you do put more details, I suggest to make the table of contents a clickable link to each section and sub section, rather than like the current manual which makes you scroll up and down through 19 pdf pages.
Aye this is what i was hoping to achieve. Kinda like the FAQ i wrote (link on the homepage) i want to aim for simplicity and effectiveness

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Post by Miriam » Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:49 pm

Re: Illarion Review

Watching this video makes me feel sorry for this guy. He had all this problem just because he didn't realize he had to use arrow keys to move (throug the portal), plus that there's a things like 'direction your Char is looking at' exists.

Will Noodia be kept up after the VBU?

The first NPC at Noobia, dosen't he tell you how to use the keybord? I don't remember this 100 %. Did the reviewer miss this NPC?

Do we need an NPC telling you the very basic and the use of keyboard commands and walking around?
Although, I wouldn't take such a guy seroius when playing in game, for newbies this may be helpfull.

An other thing I realizend by watching that video was, that there was no one to ask for help, with an other player (who knows what to do and speaking english) beeing around those problems would have been solved in less than 2 minutes, i guess.
So maybe we could put Noobia nearer to Gobaith? So that players could walk there and help out?

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Post by Flux » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:23 pm

Re: Illarion Review

I never get when people have a problem with illa's control scheme. I think mouse controls are horrendous. There are plenty of gripes one can have with Illarion but to me the control scheme seemed immediately intuitive.

And what the hell is he on about with "Up/down/left/right make you walk North East/South West" etc.?

Has he never played an isometric game before?

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:28 am

Re: Illarion Review

Flux wrote:Has he never played an isometric game before?
Most probably ;-). Isometric games are like dinosaurs, you know. On the controls, they will change with the VBU, obviously. The arrow keys will still work, of course, but the mouse interface will become more intuitive and using the num pad will also be an option.

All oddities - "face this and that direction to do something" and "not being able to walk on an item with the mouse" will be gone after the VBU, of course. Noobia was reworked from scratch, it will become much more straight forward and no player will need help with it anymore - I mean, c'mon, what's the purpose of a tutorial that can only be completed with the help of other players...!?

Also, we implemented an "awareness mechanism" that informs GMs and most probably also players about new players that joined the game. GMs will be informed immediatly when the player logs in and players will be informed upon the player finishing the tutorial so that they can welcome the players at the "noob spawn". This feature may still be subject to changes, but we think it is a good idea ;-).

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Post by Evie » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:14 pm

Re: Illarion Review

Estralis Seborian wrote:
Flux wrote:Has he never played an isometric game before?
Also, we implemented an "awareness mechanism" that informs GMs and most probably also players about new players that joined the game. GMs will be informed immediatly when the player logs in and players will be informed upon the player finishing the tutorial so that they can welcome the players at the "noob spawn". This feature may still be subject to changes, but we think it is a good idea ;-).
I love this idea! I am glad to see that it is change for VBU. I was the noob a year and a half ago. I wandered about clueless after I spawned in Trollsbane. ((Hush to those that says Evie still does this!)). A very nice Kudos to the GMa and development staff for this.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:46 pm

Re: Illarion Review

There are some things the team does not lack:

-Ideas for features
-Awareness of the problems of Illarion
-Conceptions how to overcome said problems

This is what the team actually does lack:

-Manpower
-Manpower
-Manpower

What we lack especially are skilled scripters to realise/overhaul content features such as crafting or magic. The website needs a lot of attention as well. Also, everyone who is able to implement a nice quest or two, using the easyNPC scripting language and simple Lua code is wanted. Some aspects of the VBU are ready for release for many months by now, some even years. We'd like to release as soon as possible, but this means that core features have to be finished first.

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Post by Robert_Thwaite » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:00 pm

Re: Illarion Review

I agree with you 100%

However, as far as the website goes i merely do as i am told :mrgreen:

Also many ideas and implementations that have been requested are very difficult to achieve with the current state of the website and forum

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