Alleskönner/Allrounders

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David Turner
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by David Turner »

Depending on how long it will take for the VBU, it might be a waste of time to talk too much about this now. For instance the "faction" variable that will be implemented might be extremely useful for guild use, even to the point of being indispensable. A lot can be done by modifying the "gathering" abilities, so we might want to look at that. If the remake of the programming that comes with the VBU also has the effect of smoothing out the jumble of lines that is the current system, than that might also make a lot more things possible.

Perhaps the best thing is to talk about what can be done right now to help the situation.

The biggest and easiest thing seems to be modifying the prices for the shopkeepers so that a little less diversification is necessary, mainly lowering the prices to buy raw materials and raising the prices for which players can sell raw materials and some of the things that they craft. This includes selling Sibanac Leaf for string. The main goal of this would be to keep players from being forced to be both gatherers and workers but instead reward them no matter what path they choose. This would also help simulate a "middleman" position for the shopkeepers by making it more like when you sell wood or something to the shopkeeper they are the "traders" who are then going to sell it back to the crafters (rather than people who buy stuff out of pity or outright thieves who know that if you are willing to buy and sell with them than you are desperate). It isn't a perfect solution, but it is easy to do by simply modifying the numbers that the shopkeepers use.

If someone wants to get really ambitious and do some NPC scripting, a new shopkeeper could be added who buys and sells handles (so that carpentry would not be such a universal requirement). They would not need to buy and sell every handle, just the ones needed for the most common tasks. A good list might include the handles for the tools used in the skills of farming, cooking, mining, smithing, lumberjacking, and carpentry; as well as sword handles. It is debatable what the most necessary handles are, considering there are so many, so the final list may vary. The average quality of them would limit their usefulness for quality jobs for non-masters, but would allow crafters to practice and to get what they needed in a pinch without having to absolutely train the skill or be screwed.

PS: Seriously, if anyone bought and sold things in real life with the same sort of profit margins NPC shopkeepers use, than they would be replaced through competition by someone better. Except that humans, who have real lives, cannot compete with an NPC who can just stand around waiting for customers literally forever. During the time period, people would have rioted and lynched anyone who used their control of the market to ask such outrageous prices. What I am saying is that, in addition to choking people out of specialization, it also breaks the suspension of disbelief. Yet another reason that this needs to be changed.
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Jupiter
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by Jupiter »

David Turner wrote:Perhaps the best thing is to talk about what can be done right now to help the situation.
Well. The only thing which can be done now is that the players change their behaviour. NOTHING will be changed script-wise before the VBU. And with nothing I mean nothing except for serious bugs. I won't discuss if this is good or bad, that's just how the staff has decided.
David Turner
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by David Turner »

Jupiter wrote:
David Turner wrote:Perhaps the best thing is to talk about what can be done right now to help the situation.
Well. The only thing which can be done now is that the players change their behaviour. NOTHING will be changed script-wise before the VBU. And with nothing I mean nothing except for serious bugs. I won't discuss if this is good or bad, that's just how the staff has decided.
If nothing is going to change in the circumstances that have made this behavior unavoidably necessary, than nothing will change in the behavior that is forced upon players by their circumstances. That really is all there is to say.
Olive
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by Olive »

I'm wondering if some sort of two tier'd approach wouldn't help some.

we'll just look at carpentry/logging for this example, although it can be extrpolated to cover mining/smithing and others very easily.

allow any tom dick or harry, or Jane, Sally, and Edna for the politically correct, to cut lumber from trees as the system is now

BUT

when a tree is being harvested for wood, check their associated production skill. if logging = say..50+ AND carpentry is < 30 (that allows a lumberjack to still make boards out of their logs with no penalty if they choose to) then allow the chance to harvest 'good' logs that can be used in alternate carpentry recipes that give a MUCH higher quality upon item completion.

an example or two to illustrate.

Logger A has 60 lumberjacking. He or she goes out to the woods and drops a few trees, harvesting the wood and collects say.. 30 conifer logs and 10 high quality conifer logs.

Now these high quality conifer logs could then be turned into high quality conifer boards, which are sold to carpentr B

Carpenter B then uses these to make a spoon with (dont correct recipe if its wrong, its an example) with the carpenters tool value and skill the carpenter would normally get a good/new spoon but since he used the high quality board the quality is pushed up two ranks to Very good/brand new.

alright i'll don my asbestos skin, flame away.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by Estralis Seborian »

This is the way to think about such problems, good!

However - your example has a major flaw. I know that you just want to present the principle, but I cannot resist to comment on it. If you "punish" a high carpentry skill, that's of course a motivation to focus either on lumberjacking OR carpentry. But - what about tailoring? Blacksmithing? Magic? Your character could master all those skills and is still an alleskönner. The only "punished" skill is the skill that is mostly connected to his profession! So, if your character wants to become a "woodworker", he'd be screwed while a "lumberjacking archmage smith" would have no penalty! Is that reasonable?

So, you'd have to take more than one skill into account, e.g. whole skill groups. A group like "fighting skills" could "hamper" the group "crafting skills". But this won't be a problem for a crafting alleskönner, he'd still be able to craft all things all alone at maximum "bonus". So, the gain is low.

A benefit for specialisation that is realised is the ability to craft "new" items upon raising a skill. For true master items, you'll need very high skill. Currently, most players get their best items not from crafters but from other sources because it is more easy to do three treasure maps than crafting the same items. After the VBU, this won't be the case anymore. Thus, I think specialising will be worth it. Also: The skill system will encourage specialisation in one way or another. Firstly, you can gain only X "skill" per time, regardless of your frequency of actions. Also will your attributes(!) scale your skillgain. A strong fighter will learn fighting skills faster than a nimble craftsman who has better odds for skillgain in crafting skills. The smart mage has his field, too, and the sturdy gatherer as well. Every attribute will have an impact on a set of skills and this distribution is quite balanced. So, you may become a jack of all trades, but specialising is so much more easy...

That is one of the "obvious" measures that will be taken, maybe it inspires you!

@Miriam: Currently, NPCs do have a bad memory, they could forget about the items they got (server crash, reload,...). Using NPCs is also not really elegant, if the server could save something like a guild stock in the database, a guild depot would be as possible as a storage NPC, no real difference there.
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Respen
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by Respen »

Specializing in a skill could be defined as having no other skill belonging to the same "group" (crafting, fighting, magic) with a value greater than 30% of the skill being specialized in. As long as that condition holds true for a character, the character gains the benefits/bonuses due to specializing in the skill.

Here is an example of such a skill specialization system in action:
  • Character A has the following crafing skills (taken from here): carpentry (60), lumberjacking (18), smithing (10), and no others

    Character A is considered specialized in carpentry, with all the benefits that entails.

    If character A gains even 1 skill point in lumberjacking, it is no longer specialized in carpentry, losing all the benefits specialization brings. Of course, if character A proceeds to gain 4 skill points in carpentry without any further gain in lumberjacking, character A will once more be considered specialized in carpentry.
Benefits/bonuses of specialization in a crafting skill could be:
  • guaranteed crafting of items of at least a quality appropriate to the character's skill level when using the appropriate tools and materials
  • a moderate chance (25%) of a crafted item being one quality rank higher than it should otherwise be
Without specialization, the above benefits do not apply. Maybe items crafted are instead always one quality rank lower, with a small chance (5%) of being the same quality rank as an item produced by a specialized crafter.

An equivalent situation could be established for the fighting and magic skills as well. If you want to be really strict on your definition of specialization, do not divide the skills into groups (fighting, crafting, magic), instead lump them all into the same group for the purposes of determining specialization. In such a system, a character would only be considered specialized in a skill, thus receiving its specialization benefits, if the character had no other skill with a level higher than 30% of the level of the "specialized" skill. Specialized characters in that system would only be able to have other skills at no more than 30 if they had completely mastered their specialized skill. That system would likely require the ability for players to lock a character's advancement in a skill, something like I read that UO did.

I have not played this game much, so my grasp of the current crafting system is not very good. Thus, the details of my suggestion for skill specialization benefits could be way out of line with the current system. :wink:
David Turner
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by David Turner »

I honestly don't like the idea of penalizing people for having their skills too high, especially since putting that into place would basically be a giant "F*** YOU" to all the players who currently play the game in which they are pretty much required to multi-skill if they want to get anything done. Rewarding characters for having low skill is exactly the same as penalizing characters for having high skill. This holds true for any type of neumerical game change that is based off of skill levels.

A better way to implement this same idea might be to give a bonus to people who practice one skill a majority of the time. Even this has problems. What happens if a character wants to specialize in one craft skill but is also a druid who needs to use "herb lore" frequently to find ingredients? What if a friend asks your character to help out on a job any your character goes along with them for RP reasons? What happens if you are a lumberjack/miner/whatever and you just feel like taking a day off and going fishing every once in a while? Is forcing people to specialize such a dire need that it is worth giving up the freedom that characters currently have?

Honestly though, I really do believe that characters would specialize more under the current rules if they could, and the only thing that keeps them from doing this is the fact that there is a basic inability for specializing to work under the current rules and conditions. This means crafters and consumers need to be able to get what they need when they want it, producers need to have a way to get their products to market reliably and for a good price, and that really is about it. Adding more rules to try to force people to go one way or another will only corrupt the "do anything, be anything" feel of the game that makes it unique. Adding an unusual and cumbersome aspect (such as specifically rewarding specialists), in my opinion, is not worth loosing the truly unique and artistically elegant aspects that this game already has.
Last edited by David Turner on Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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GolfLima
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by GolfLima »

example:

finesmith: you need 2 copper ingots to make an oillamp

if you buy 2 copper ingots from Sorgan this will cost 20 copper.
if you sell the oillamp to Zathrot, you will earn 7 copper.
:arrow: 13 copper deficit only for material, no personal costs
:arrow: you can´t be only a finesmith in this way :!:

:arrow: hope this problem will be solved with the VBU
Last edited by GolfLima on Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lia
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by Lia »

GolfLima wrote: you can´t be only a finesmith in this way :!:
you can
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GolfLima
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by GolfLima »

Lia wrote:
GolfLima wrote: you can´t be only a finesmith in this way :!:
you can
:arrow: you can with permanent deficit? ..... you can´t
:arrow: may be you´re char can ... my char can´t
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Respen
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by Respen »

David Turner wrote:I honestly don't like the idea of penalizing people for having their skills too high, especially since putting that into place would basically be a giant "F*** YOU" to all the players who currently play the game in which they are pretty much required to multi-skill if they want to get anything done. Rewarding characters for having low skill is exactly the same as penalizing characters for having high skill. This holds true for any type of neumerical game change that is based off of skill levels.
Honestly, the idea behind my suggestion would not really penalize existing all-rounder characters. Simply keep the system as it currently is, and add an additional layer on top of it for the specializations. That way, the specialists get the extra bonuses, but nobody really loses anything. The specialist bonuses should be significant, but not to the point that not being specialized means the character is useless.

I guess that the general idea behind it may not have been expressed clearly enough. Also, the numbers I used while presenting my idea can be radically changed to better fit your vision of this game.
David Turner wrote:A better way to implement this same idea might be to give a bonus to people who practice one skill a majority of the time. Even this has problems. What happens if a character wants to specialize in one craft skill but is also a druid who needs to use "herb lore" frequently to find ingredients? What if a friend asks your character to help out on a job any your character goes along with them for RP reasons? What happens if you are a lumberjack/miner/whatever and you just feel like taking a day off and going fishing every once in a while? Is forcing people to specialize such a dire need that it is worth giving up the freedom that characters currently have?
That is certainly one way to implement skill specialization, although I think it might take a bit more work. The time spent working on each of a character's skills would need to be recorded. Then the system simply choses the skill with the highest time spent on it for the specialized skill. This assumes, though, that all skills require the same amount of time put into them for the same level of progress. It could still be done otherwise, but determining the specialized skill would be a bit more complicated.

In such an implementation of skill specialization, characters could still spend time on other skills and remain specialized as long as they spend more time on their specialized skill than any others.
David Turner wrote:Honestly though, I really do believe that characters would specialize more under the current rules if they could, and the only thing that keeps them from doing this is the fact that there is a basic inability for specializing to work under the current rules and conditions. This means crafters and consumers need to be able to get what they need when they want it, producers need to have a way to get their products to market reliably and for a good price, and that really is about it. Adding more rules to try to force people to go one way or another will only corrupt the "do anything, be anything" feel of the game that makes it unique. Adding an unusual and cumbersome aspect (such as specifically rewarding specialists), in my opinion, is not worth loosing the truly unique and artistically elegant aspects that this game already has.
The skill specialization idea I proposed does not force people to specialize, it just rewards them for doing so. Non-specialized people can still do whatever it is they want, it just won't be as good as a specialist's work. Where is the harm in that?

All of that said, it may be an unnecessary addition, like you said. I agree with you that the item distribution methods in this game (NPC shops, player trading, etc.) could definitely use improvement. If that aspect of the game was improved, my idea might be unnecessary.

I might be more pessimistic about how I view players of games, though. I just do not think having a completely open system, like the game has currently with the exception of magic vs druidism, is going to encourage a majority of players to specialize. Rather than closing down the system, I think adding a layer on top of it to reward specialists would be enough to encourage greater numbers of specialists. That is just my opinion. :)

About the finesmith example: that is one thing David Turner has suggested fixing. I agree with him that such fixes are certainly necessary.

Lia's point that you still can be just a finesmith is still valid, though. You could either live with the deficit from solely dealing with the NPC shops, or you could overcharge your player customers. With this finesmith example, does any NPC sell oillamps? If so, for how much?

Granted, neither of those options currently available are enough for some players. Some people need a bit more than roleplaying, they like for the game engine to back them up on their roleplay. Unfortunately in at least several areas, from the discussions I have seen, the current game does not back up the characters' roleplay very well. I am one of those players, and that may be why I have been hesitant to play the game in its current form.
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GolfLima
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by GolfLima »

:arrow: the lizard in Trolls Bane sells oillamps for 1 silver for a lamp (( it´s easier to fish a lamp, and it´s cheaper [a fishing rod costs 30 copper] :wink: ))
and
i cant understand how a char can life with a permanent deficit. At the beginning a new charakcter needs NPC for buying and selling goods ... later he dont need NPC´s but at the beginning - yes, and the char has not much money at the beginning.
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Respen
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by Respen »

The solution in this instance is relatively simple, then. Sell your oillamps for around 30 coppers to other players. You make at least a 10 copper profit per lamp. Of course, you likely could buy the copper ingots for a lower price from other players as well. The problem with this, though, is finding another player willing to trade with you. :wink:

I think one problem with this situation is the feeling that a new character has to rely on the NPCs for buying and selling goods, rather than dealing with other players from the very beginning. That feeling could be perfectly valid, though, if there are insufficient numbers of other players willing to trade with new characters/crafters.

This is why some other method of trading with other players needs to be developed. Plenty of these other methods have been discussed already in this thread, though.
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Qeewee
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by Qeewee »

Respen wrote:Sell your oillamps for around 30 coppers to other players.
1000 oil lamps free each time you fish ruined that one.

Though, you can sell the oil lamps at the harbor in larger amounts at a time for higher prices than usual I think. Though the failure rate of making oil lamps would still leave you with minus of coins I think.
David Turner
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by David Turner »

Respen wrote:
David Turner wrote:I honestly don't like the idea of penalizing people for having their skills too high, especially since putting that into place would basically be a giant "F*** YOU" to all the players who currently play the game in which they are pretty much required to multi-skill if they want to get anything done. Rewarding characters for having low skill is exactly the same as penalizing characters for having high skill. This holds true for any type of neumerical game change that is based off of skill levels.
Honestly, the idea behind my suggestion would not really penalize existing all-rounder characters. Simply keep the system as it currently is, and add an additional layer on top of it for the specializations. That way, the specialists get the extra bonuses, but nobody really loses anything. The specialist bonuses should be significant, but not to the point that not being specialized means the character is useless.
They don't loose anything, other than the ability to specialize like the new characters can... New characters would only have to train one skill up from 0 in order to be specialized; established characters would, at best, have to train one skill up from 75% (or some high number) to 85% (or some other high number). If you don't know why that is a big deal, than try asking around about skill gain at higher levels. And then remember those characters who are maxed in more than one skill for which even this option would not work. In addition, if the bonus is significant to have, than, by definition, it would be significant to be denied it. So the "nobody looses anything" answer just doesn't work. (ps: I don't mean to dump on you for coming up with an idea, ideas are good. My point was simply to explain why it is not a good idea to implement.)
Respen wrote:
David Turner wrote:A better way to implement this same idea might be to give a bonus to people who practice one skill a majority of the time. Even this has problems. What happens if a character wants to specialize in one craft skill but is also a druid who needs to use "herb lore" frequently to find ingredients? What if a friend asks your character to help out on a job any your character goes along with them for RP reasons? What happens if you are a lumberjack/miner/whatever and you just feel like taking a day off and going fishing every once in a while? Is forcing people to specialize such a dire need that it is worth giving up the freedom that characters currently have?
That is certainly one way to implement skill specialization, although I think it might take a bit more work. The time spent working on each of a character's skills would need to be recorded. Then the system simply choses the skill with the highest time spent on it for the specialized skill. This assumes, though, that all skills require the same amount of time put into them for the same level of progress. It could still be done otherwise, but determining the specialized skill would be a bit more complicated.
You did hit on a number of other reasons why this would also be a bad idea. Reasons that I did not touch on, but are still good ones. The difference in skill progress, the addition of more programming, the addition of something that records all uses of the skills, balancing to allow secondary skill usage at the right level. And as I sit here I also think of other problems, such that I can't really say that this is a good idea either. But at least it doesn't undermine most of the established player base as it attempts to fix the problem.

Mabie a better idea would be to simply let people pick a "specialist" skill to have a bonus for. Make sure that they can change it, but not without consequence (paying some money is probably good, the scaling numbers that will be used for changing stats seems a good place to start). That is just a rough idea based off of yours and it still has a lot of holes (like what the bonus should be, etc.), so feel free to say what you like about it.
Respen wrote:
David Turner wrote:Honestly though, I really do believe that characters would specialize more under the current rules if they could, and the only thing that keeps them from doing this is the fact that there is a basic inability for specializing to work under the current rules and conditions. This means crafters and consumers need to be able to get what they need when they want it, producers need to have a way to get their products to market reliably and for a good price, and that really is about it. Adding more rules to try to force people to go one way or another will only corrupt the "do anything, be anything" feel of the game that makes it unique. Adding an unusual and cumbersome aspect (such as specifically rewarding specialists), in my opinion, is not worth loosing the truly unique and artistically elegant aspects that this game already has.
The skill specialization idea I proposed does not force people to specialize, it just rewards them for doing so. Non-specialized people can still do whatever it is they want, it just won't be as good as a specialist's work. Where is the harm in that?
The specialist idea you proposed does comparatively punish those who do not specialize when compared to those who do. This is a big deal since a lot of the characters who have the most diverse set of skills are those who /want/ to be crafters and want to be /excellent/ crafters. This means that those established characters will automatically be at a disadvantage compared to new characters (once they make up the skill difference) and those new players who choose to spend the much greater amount of time being generalized will /always/ be inferior to focused characters. So yes, if the character wants to be really good at what they do, this does force them to be specialists and it forces established players to loose there characters or simply get used to being "inferior". That is the harm.
Respen wrote:I might be more pessimistic about how I view players of games, though. I just do not think having a completely open system, like the game has currently with the exception of magic vs druidism, is going to encourage a majority of players to specialize. Rather than closing down the system, I think adding a layer on top of it to reward specialists would be enough to encourage greater numbers of specialists. That is just my opinion. :)
You are very likely right in many cases, though I tend to think most characters would specialize if they saw that as a possibility. All I ask is that we don't cause another problem when trying to fix the current one (like some of the past changes have done). That's all.
Respen wrote:Lia's point that you still can be just a finesmith is still valid, though. You could either live with the deficit from solely dealing with the NPC shops, or you could overcharge your player customers. With this finesmith example, does any NPC sell oillamps? If so, for how much?
The problem with "just living with" the deficit is that the copper to pay for that deficit must come from somewhere. This forces people to either turn crafting into a completely tertiary occupation (rather than their main job) by fighting monsters for loot to pay for that "hobby" (assuming that they even can do this with crafter stats), or they must become all-rounders in order to gather everything needed to use their primary skill.

I also don't see how "overcharge your player customers" is a good solution to the problem. If anything it proves that there is a problem that it is even suggested.
Respen wrote:Granted, neither of those options currently available are enough for some players. Some people need a bit more than roleplaying, they like for the game engine to back them up on their roleplay. Unfortunately in at least several areas, from the discussions I have seen, the current game does not back up the characters' roleplay very well. I am one of those players, and that may be why I have been hesitant to play the game in its current form.
The problem isn't that people don't want to rollplay, the problem is that it is silly to roleplay a smith who can't actually do any smithy work. But, in order to get the skill to do any smithy work, the system requires you to do everything else...
Respen wrote:The solution in this instance is relatively simple, then. Sell your oillamps for around 30 coppers to other players. You make at least a 10 copper profit per lamp. Of course, you likely could buy the copper ingots for a lower price from other players as well. The problem with this, though, is finding another player willing to trade with you. :wink:

I think one problem with this situation is the feeling that a new character has to rely on the NPCs for buying and selling goods, rather than dealing with other players from the very beginning. That feeling could be perfectly valid, though, if there are insufficient numbers of other players willing to trade with new characters/crafters.
Why not try out the system a bit to see how it works? You have multiple character slots, so try to use one by starting up a new character and trying out the system and the proposed non-client-based solutions to see how they work out. The best way to understand something is to interact with it, right? Try out your ideas in little ways or look for other similar solutions in other games, that way your words have greater weight to them than "this is something that just popped into my head". Mabie it will lead you to some other insight that might be beneficial to the group to hear.
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Respen
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by Respen »

Qeewee wrote:1000 oil lamps free each time you fish ruined that one.
It is things like this that totally ruin any possiblity of this game having a reasonable economy. When it is easier to aquire an item through loot drops (including fishing) than it is to make the item, what is the point in even being able to make the item? What is the purpose in even being a crafter?

Meh, sorry about that outburst, but seeing that kind of thing in games frustrates me to no end. :(
David Turner wrote: In addition, if the bonus is significant to have, than, by definition, it would be significant to be denied it. So the "nobody looses anything" answer just doesn't work. (ps: I don't mean to dump on you for coming up with an idea, ideas are good. My point was simply to explain why it is not a good idea to implement.)
That is true. I thought that there was some way, other than character "death", to reduce a skill's level. I suppose established characters using that option if they want to specialize won't work either. ;)

I was well aware when posting about my idea that it could be a horrible fit for this game. So I do not mind you pointing it out. Although... my idea might work if there was a character wipe. ;)
David Turner wrote:The specialist idea you proposed does comparatively punish those who do not specialize when compared to those who do. This is a big deal since a lot of the characters who have the most diverse set of skills are those who /want/ to be crafters and want to be /excellent/ crafters. This means that those established characters will automatically be at a disadvantage compared to new characters (once they make up the skill difference) and those new players who choose to spend the much greater amount of time being generalized will /always/ be inferior to focused characters. So yes, if the character wants to be really good at what they do, this does force them to be specialists and it forces established players to loose there characters or simply get used to being "inferior". That is the harm.
Maybe this is my problem then: my vision of skill specialization and the current state of the game/community are completely incompatible. It just feels wrong to me that a specialist and an all-rounder should be on equal footing within the same skill. I think the thing you are overlooking in the balance between specialization and all-rounders are all of the other skills an all-rounder has. Sure, the specialist (in my view of things) has an advantage in his/her specialized skill, but the all-rounder can do so many other things.

I guess I just can't live with the fact that a specialist's overall power level in his/her specialized skill has to be equivalent to an all-rounder's overall power level in the same skill. A some-time blacksmith, lumberjack, miner, carpenter, mage, fighter should not be able to produce swords as well as a focused blacksmith can. That is my opinion, the opposite makes no sense to me. The opposite may be how the game works now, but I do not have to like it. :|
David Turner wrote:Mabie a better idea would be to simply let people pick a "specialist" skill to have a bonus for. Make sure that they can change it, but not without consequence (paying some money is probably good, the scaling numbers that will be used for changing stats seems a good place to start). That is just a rough idea based off of yours and it still has a lot of holes (like what the bonus should be, etc.), so feel free to say what you like about it.
I suppose that this solution is the best I could hope for from this game/community. It still does not really address one of the problems all-rounder characters create: a complete unbalancing of a game's economy. It is not really specialization at all, unless the specialist bonuses are very strong and it is very expensive/difficult to change specialties. Even then, there is no incentive for the character to really focus on the skill they are "specialized" in at the expense of using their other skills less.

So this solution would mean that all-rounder characters get the benefits of both specializing and being all-rounders. It does not seem like a solution at all, since it essentially does not change anything about the all-rounder situation.
David Turner wrote:
Respen wrote:Granted, neither of those options currently available are enough for some players. Some people need a bit more than roleplaying, they like for the game engine to back them up on their roleplay. Unfortunately in at least several areas, from the discussions I have seen, the current game does not back up the characters' roleplay very well. I am one of those players, and that may be why I have been hesitant to play the game in its current form.
The problem isn't that people don't want to rollplay, the problem is that it is silly to roleplay a smith who can't actually do any smithy work. But, in order to get the skill to do any smithy work, the system requires you to do everything else...
I think that you and I are saying essentially the same thing here. Your words are just more direct than mine. :)
David Turner wrote:Why not try out the system a bit to see how it works? You have multiple character slots, so try to use one by starting up a new character and trying out the system and the proposed non-client-based solutions to see how they work out. The best way to understand something is to interact with it, right? Try out your ideas in little ways or look for other similar solutions in other games, that way your words have greater weight to them than "this is something that just popped into my head". Mabie it will lead you to some other insight that might be beneficial to the group to hear.
I have read about and tried many games over the last several years. Few look as promising as Illarion could be, that may be why I still hang around here. I still do not think a completely unlimited skill system works out well in practice because eventually everyone becomes an all-rounder. Then the new characters must become all-rounders if they want to compete. A recent example of this is the game Darkfall, which has more problems than nearly everyone being all-rounders, at least from what I have read.

In any case, I tried Illarion several years ago for a couple days. For some reason, it just did not keep me interested. I have been considering for several weeks trying to start up again. I do not think actually experiencing the problems I have read so much about over the last several years will really change my mind about unlimited skill systems, unless all that I have read here the past several years has been false. Anyway, I will probably create a character and try to get started soon.
David Turner
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by David Turner »

To Respen:
It is easier to obtain A FEW items through means other than crafting, most items are not like that. Furthermore it is those item drops that make the use of those skills sustainable. Removing them would cause far more consequences than simply forcing people to buy stuff from a crafter, and even if those things were absolutely necessary it would only force them farther into being an all-rounder.

There is no character wipe coming and no way to selectively reduce one's skills under normal circumstances.

You say that it is stupid that a specialist and an all-rounder should be on equal footing with the same skill at the same level. You completely forget that a specialist needs to raise one skill, let's say that takes 50 hours; while an all rounder must raise around 9 or more skills, taking around 450 or more hours. Comparing 50 hours worth of work with 450 hours worth of work is an extremely unfair comparison.

The unbalance in the economy is not due to people having the theoretical capability do everything, it is due to an inability for the basic economic rules of supply and demand to do their work. I can learn every skill in runescape, but I still buy many things that I technically have the skill necessary to make for myself (for instance).

Try out the game systems that are broken, but do it with a character that is fun to play otherwise or in other areas. This way you won't get bored or overwhelmed by the bad. It will also give you a better frame of reference (experiential rather than theoretical) to speak on this.

To everyone:
As much as I and so many others wish that there were a way to be able to focus on one skill, the truth seems to be that the major roadblocks won't be addressed until the VBU. Therefore, even if there is still a problem in the post-VBU world, we won't know about it or be able to address it intelligently until then.

So, unless someone has any ideas of what can be done right now with what we have (besides "just do it for RP reasons, no matter how unpractical it is"), this thread can probably be closed.
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Uhuru
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by Uhuru »

I haven't seen anyone talk about the loot drops people are getting when they are training or our big PG'rs. They earn tons of coins and things. This is another issue with the "supply/demand" side of things. A few have tons of coins from this very thing. Not from hard work and labor. Not from making and selling items. Sure, Athian has coins to spend and dump into an economy, but where did it come from? Not from his hard work and certainly not from something he supplied to a community or something. (sorry to single you out Athian, you are just the first to pop into my head *winks*) And when Athian does want to spend those coins, people are not willing to toil away in boring tasks like mining all day long all alone.

This is all relative. There can be no true supply and demand scenario if coin and items are "fished" (for lack of a better term) so easily from everywhere. There is no reason to labor away at cooking other than your brother needs to eat so he can go and slay dragons or hunt for latent gems. Why spend time RPing a trade system? I can think of a lot more interesting things to do in terms of RP and I'm sure most others can as well.

However, stop all the easily fished items and the ability to do all for yourself and how difficult would it be for someone new to start out? Keeping in mind how rude people were to me when I first began and how unwilling they were to help me... I'd say pretty darn difficult. So, that being said, what are the alternatives? Sure, the atmosphere in Troll's Bane has changed now through some serious hard work in game. But new comers have to survive fairly easily or they won't stay.

I'm not against the idea of working towards specialization, I just don't see how it would be possible with what we have now, especially given the mindset of many, if not, most of the players. I wanted to specialize. I had no choice but to diversify. There was no way I could afford to buy food or the fixings to make food and I wasn't about to eat smoked fish forever. Until my character started training harder and earning more coin through her training. Now she can afford to buy more, but has no need because she now has the skill and rather enjoys her cooking. This is just one example, which has already been discussed above, I'm sure. She does, however, sell food if someone is in need, but very few can afford to buy at a reasonable replacement rate.
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Athian
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by Athian »

well since you decide to use me as an example i my as well comment on your thoughts

1. I'm not a PG'er i've played for years and i've only recently actually maxed out my first two skills. That's right I've been beating the pants off of most of you for years without even having maxed skills :P.

2. Do not use Athian as an example for anything money based honestly. I've said it a thousand times, the 'battle-mage' build at least in current illarion is probably the best PVE build. The down side has always been that is takes a long time to get so many different sorts of skills to the point where their tandem usage makes up for your relatively suck attributes. The good side is you don't need much help when you go monster hunting. In every game, solo questing nets more singular profit then normal, hence the character make coins at an astounding rate but it's a unique example.
Sure, Athian has coins to spend and dump into an economy, but where did it come from? Not from his hard work and certainly not from something he supplied to a community or something.
The very concept that an adventurer character or even a PG'er somehow does less work then other types of characters is absolute BS and promotes the wrong kind of mentality. Just because one player chooses to make his or her profits on risk vs reward as opposed to supply vs demand doesn't mean they are somehow less hard working then other character's. Even those who farm gems spend more RL hours doing so then you probably spend IG each day, the gem's are the reward for their time spent IG, and no matter what your doing, be it RP with other players or doing your own thing solo, time IG should be rewarded.

If that's the way some people want to enjoy there time IG then they have every right too. Contrary to much popular belief Illarion isn't designed to detract or demotivate player who choose to spend time in a dungeon. Just because its not your idea of hard work doesn't mean that you are correct in your assumption.


The problem is that killing monsters gives more instantaneous profit then doing crafts and that does need to be rebalanced. this problem stems quite a lot from the fact that craftsmen cannot off load the products they make for anything that resembles good income. As I stated before in an earlier post NPC traders don't pay nearly enough to craftsmen and they sell at prices several times higher. They also do not buy enough basic crafting items and have set limits on how much they can pay out every cycle. Selling 10 hard made swords shouldn't be 40-50 coins cheaper then killing two demon skeletons though ideally it should pay relatively less.

Most basic Example

10 Serinjah swords sold to Eliza: 80 copper coins
2 demon warrior (hammer wielding ones): 60-120 copper

In the ideal system

skills usage to make 10 swords: Smithing
Skills usage to slay monster: Dodge, Parry, Tactics, Weapon skill (minimum)

Tools/items involved to make 10 swords: hammer, iron ingots, sword handle
Tools/items to slay monster: weapon(2)/shield, armor slots x7 (counting only major ones; minimum)

risk of fighting monster: death attribute penalty, item loss, skill loss
risk of smith: finger cramp

The adventurer character as far as the client is concerned does FAR more work then a craftsmen. He activates more scripts, relies on more attributes, relies on more tools and has a greater risk with every action then the craftsmen does BY FAR. The time spent on these actions varies for the adventurer based upon his skills and can vary quite a bit, the craftsmen spends a fixed amount of time per action, per item. The better the warrior gets the less time he spends per action which raises his base profit. the crafter remains at a fixed minimum profit

The reality for most players however is that they must gather the components of an item by themselves, so things look more like this for the craftsmen

Skill usage to make 10 swords: lumberjacking, carpentry, smithing
Tools/items used to make 10 swords: hatchet, carving tools, hammer, branches, iron ingot, sword handle

risk of the crafter: QQ (teasing^^)

their risk remains relatively low, their time now spent can exponentially surpass the time of an adventurer. They will have higher expenditure on average and make far less profit. Overall they are now working as hard or harder then the adventurer but not being rewarded in kind. the better the crafter gets the higher his high end profit margin becomes (selling high quality to player's for higher prices) however his baseline profit remains fixed regardless of skill (NPC's do not pay for quality)

Some ways i can see to balance this issue it to actually reduce the amount of items or actions required when creating items or reduce the strain of acquiring them. This can be done by making components more abundant. One method is increased return; multiple components from one action such as being able to make many handles from one branch. Another way would be adding these items for lower costs on NPC's. alternatively removing some items from the creation process also helps.


Well i'm tired of typing this now so taking a thinking break and leaving it here :wink:
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by ThisGuy »

Athian wrote:The reality for most players however is that they must gather the components of an item by themselves, so things look more like this for the craftsmen

Skill usage to make 10 swords: lumberjacking, carpentry, smithing
Tools/items used to make 10 swords: hatchet, carving tools, hammer, branches, iron ingot, sword handle

risk of the crafter: QQ (teasing^^)
you left out a bit

skills: mining
tools:pickaxe

as I said I'm an allrounder, though my character first started(and in RP is only) a tailor. as a tailor until you're good enough to make hats you're basicly just making stuff you can sell at a loss to an npc. you can't sell any actual item(cloth not included) to an npc at even money or better, on top of that its extremely rare for a player who isn't a mage to buy anything except bags from a tailor(clothes or armor? your choice). since I was losing so much money as a tailor when I started out I decided to try something else to make money to support my main profession.

I was told to try smithing since I needed money(and a guy I knew needed pins). smithing can actually make you money when you first start IF you know the right people. after a while smithing you get into making weapons and tools, but you need handles for that...no carpenter wants to just stand around and make 50+ handles(pretty much minimum amount for a decent trade) so any smith will after a while start making thier own handles(as Athian just pointed out)...and that fits with realism more than most people seem to realize. a person who makes a weapon makes the entire weapon not just part of it.

many people in this game complain about all-rounder characters, but I doubt anyone would be able to get half the stuff they want if there wasn't a single all rounder in the game. most of you may not believe that, but would you really want to risk it?
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by Thorwald »

Grüße aus der Gruft :)

Bin zwar schon eine ganze Weile raus aus Silberbrand , aber als ich dort noch was zu sagen hatte , hat das mit den Handwerken , der Versorgung mit Rohstoffen und Nahrung ,
das Erlernen von Berufen und der Kriegskunst sehr gut funktioniert .
Jeder Zwerg ( Spieler ) in der Stadt hat sich einen Beruf der dem Wohl der Stadt und der Gemeinschaft dient ausgesucht .
Es wurden gemeinsame Rohstoffbeschaffungs Tage , ebenso wie Trainingstermie für die Krieger bestimmt .
Dann sind wir losgezogen und haben mit viel Gaudi und RPG unsere Abende in und um Silberbrand verlebt .
Jeder Zwerg der ein Handwerk ausgeübt hat war ein Meister seines Faches .
Jeder hat für und mit den anderen gespielt und es hat rießigen Spass gemacht , nicht alles selber zu können , sondern von anderen Mitspielern innerhalb der Stadt abhängig zu sein .
So hatte jeder genug Zeit und Geld sich auch mal was gönnen zu können und wir haben ja auch gebaut wie blöd und die Rohstoffe dafür haben wir auch von Nichtzwergen
gekauft .

Dieses System hat so gut funktioniert , das es von manchen als zu gut erfunden wurde und Silberbrand zur Eroberung freigegeben wurde .

In diesen Sinn .... was zählt ist der Wille zum Zusammenspiel .
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by GolfLima »

Grüße in die Gruft :wink:

In Vanima hat das auch funktioniert als es noch bevölkert war (jeder Char hat für die Gemeinschaft gearbeitet und die Dinge, die er fertigen konnte zur Verfügung gestellt, die die anderen Char gebraucht haben), aber es hängt stark von der Anzahl der Char eines Ortes ab, die zu ähnlichen Zeiten ig sind.
Im Moment würde es in Vanima nicht funktionieren. Leider ... und dann entstehen Alleskönner (einfach weil es sonst nicht funktioniert :cry: )
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by Thorwald »

Früher also ganz früher als ich noch gespielt habe , war mal angedacht an sowas wie einer Gemeinschaftstruhe zu arbeiten .
Was dabei rausgekommen ist weiß ich leider nicht . Ging Technisch glaub ich zur damaligen Zeit nicht .

Mich würde es ja schon wieder jucken mal wieder reinzuschaun in Silberbrand .
Aber ich hab einfach nicht mehr die Zeit meinen Thorwald wieder aufzubauen zu dem als was er bekannt war ;)
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by David Turner »

You know, I hate to rain on your parade and all. But, despite the fun that you had with a few close friends building up your socialist communities, there are real reasons why those types of economic systems all end in failure. They can work so long as they are small enough to keep an eye on everyone, but if we assume that the game is going to seriously grow after the VBU than we need to focus on solutions that have long term benefit. Look up any modern economics book to see why socialism ultimately fails, I don't really need to go into it more than that.

Also, Athian has a very good point. One that has some small applications now but much larger ones after the changes with the VBU. Killing monsters takes a lot of work and requires the player to put a lot into the task. A good crafter needs only time while a great crafter needs only one good stat in addition to the time requirement; while even a good fighter needs time, average stats in multiple areas, risk, and often connections. A great fighter needs OOC experience, focused stats, time, risk, and they still need connections (they might also need to be an all-rounder themselves in addition to everything else, depending on the circumstances). Saying that fighters don't contribute to the community by bringing in loot might be attractive to say if you want to remove competition (despite the fact that the loot is generally either inferior to crafted items or components for crafted items), but hurting other ways of doing things does not make your way any better than it is.

The biggest problem in trying to talk about this, however, is that so much will change after the VBU that it is hard to say what needs to be changed and how to change it. High level monsters are supposed to be getting harder to the point where groups will be needed to take them on, high level loot is supposed to be decreased by this also. So fighters won't do so well as they do now. But the rewards for other jobs are supposed to be increased, such as mining up magical gems and the ability to sell anything to vendors. So the end result may be that fighters are actually horribly underpowered by the changes. Considering everything that it takes to become a fighter and the work that is put into it, this is not acceptable. THIS is what I am far more worried about. And with the way that a lot of people mistakenly think that there is a uncrossable dichotomy between being a fighter and a rollplayer, combined with the fact that an extremely significant portion of the new players who stick around start out as fighters, this can have some "really bad" effects on the game overall.
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by Respen »

David Turner wrote:You say that it is stupid that a specialist and an all-rounder should be on equal footing with the same skill at the same level. You completely forget that a specialist needs to raise one skill, let's say that takes 50 hours; while an all rounder must raise around 9 or more skills, taking around 450 or more hours. Comparing 50 hours worth of work with 450 hours worth of work is an extremely unfair comparison.
I will say this one last time (I meantioned it in one of my previous posts already): I am aware that a specialist only needs to raise one skill and I am aware that an all-rounder raises many more than that. In such a situation as you described, I am only comparing the specialist's 50 hours with the 50 of 450 hours the all-rounder spent on the same skill. Looking at it this way you can already see that the all-rounder has the advantage of 400 more hours put into his/her character. Would adding specialist-only perks really overbalance those 400 extra hours the all-rounder has?

In my opinion, the all-rounders still have the advantage if you look at the overall picture, even with specialist-only perks. Adding specialist benefits just makes specialization more appealing outside of roleplay.

I suppose my outlook on skill specialization vs all-rounders is completely different than this community's outlook. I see no point in saying anything further about it as I doubt we can change one another's minds.

If I correctly understand what Thorwald said (courtesy of Google Translate), yes it is certainly possible for people to limit their character's crafts and be specialized. However, as you said, it requires the cooperation of a large and active community of players. Unfortunately, by my understanding of the current situation, this game does not really have a large and active community of players, even if they were willing to do such a thing.

Everything about this topic has pretty much already been said, so I see no more need for me to continue posting in this thread. If someone is interested to talk more with me about this topic, I am available through PM.
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by ThisGuy »

so what you're saying is you want to be able to do stuff in 50 hours of grinding that someone else will never be able to do after doing almost 10 times as much grinding? I still don't think you're getting the point David was trying to make...

if you add something new to the game and only allow new players to do it, then you're cheating older players out of that oppurtunity. even if it is added the way you want, what if someone starts out in 1 profession and changes that profession later on, even they would be denied access to that ability. this doesn't give a bonus to certain players it penalizes others...thats the point he was trying to make.

on the other hand if your bonus was chosen by the player(not by the skills they have) and could only be changed maybe once every 2 in game years(maybe less time for new players so they can see whats going on before making the commitment), then it gives a bonus to those who want to specialize in a particular trade, but doesn't penalize them for knowing other trades.
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by Garath »

I imagine some people look allrounders simply for playing a long time. They chose a profession, worked hard on it and then get bored with always doing the same. So they change their path and take up a new craft. After playing for a year you'd end up with someone proficient, if not completely the best, in many trades. Not because (s)he wanted to, but because (s)he didn't want to retire after getting bored with a certain craft while the character still has many years of life left.

Another thing. If you collect honeycombs or plant trees, you train farming, and even though you'll never see any grain in your life, you'll become a proficient farmer in time. Even though you're a candlemaker and intent to make intricate candelabras, or a lumberjack who is preserving his lifehood (plant a new tree for everyone you cut style of thing), you're now also a farmer. There are more examples probably, but this is one I know.
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by Respen »

ThisGuy wrote:so what you're saying is you want to be able to do stuff in 50 hours of grinding that someone else will never be able to do after doing almost 10 times as much grinding? I still don't think you're getting the point David was trying to make...
For the last time, that is not what I am trying to say. I completely understand the point that David was trying to make, I just do not fully agree with it or the reasoning behind it.

What I am trying to say, using your example: I want a specialist character (defined in one of my previous posts) to be better at his/her specialized skill than an all-rounded character in that same skill. The comparison is made between the specialist's 50 hours of time spent in the specialized skill vs the 50 hours of time any all-rounder puts into the same skill. The balance in such a situation for both sides is that each side gets a unique benefit. The specialist gets some kind of benefit related to the specialized skill, and the all-rounder has a bunch of other skills to fall back on.

That is the balance which it seems that no one else can see, or at least has not acknowledged. This is not by any means personal for me. It is just a suggestion I make in the hopes of making the game better for more people, not just the older characters who have high levels in most of the skills. Those characters retain the advantages they have worked so hard for. If the player of one of those characters wants to take advantage of the specialization system I suggested, that player can use one of their other character slots.

Like I said at the beginning of this post, this is the last time I will try to explain my position on this topic (really this time ;)). I have repeatedly tried to explain my suggestion, and it seems that either no one else agrees with it or no one completely understands it. I am assuming the former is the current situation.

Garath (I like the name, by the way, if it comes from where I think it does :wink: ), just because those characters have been around for a long time does not mean that they absolutely had to become all-rounders. The player chose that course rather than start another character with a different craft, which would have scratched the boredom itch in the same, or even a better way.

The second point about raising farming without really intending to brings up the need for the part of my specialization suggestion where a player would likely need some way to lock progress in skills they have no intention of raising.
ThisGuy wrote:on the other hand if your bonus was chosen by the player(not by the skills they have) and could only be changed maybe once every 2 in game years(maybe less time for new players so they can see whats going on before making the commitment), then it gives a bonus to those who want to specialize in a particular trade, but doesn't penalize them for knowing other trades.
The only way I would agree to this implementation of specialization was if the character still had to be eligible for the desired specialization as I defined it within a certain amount of time. The actual numbers of the definition would be up for debate, but the skill to be specialized in would have to have a higher level than any other skill by at least a little bit. I would be willing to go as far as something like the other skills could be up to 75% of the level of the specialized skill. There would also need to be some way to selectively lower a character's skills, and it should be expensive.

Otherwise, the change would do nothing to change the current situation regarding all-rounder characters. Thus, the change would only cause work for the developers without giving much in the way of any useful benefit to the game. In such a case, it would be best to keep the existing system as it is, without the proposed specialization changes.

However, I have realized that a system like I proposed is not going to be supported by this community. So I see no further point in discussing it. We shall have to see if the changes in the VBU will be enough to encourage people to specialize their characters. :wink:
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by David Turner »

Why is specialization (as far as character abilities) even necessary? What people are asking for is specialization in terms of character productivity. They want people to buy stuff from other people and be able to sell stuff to other people, and they see all-rounder characters as having no need to engage in either of those tasks. That is why this thread was originally opened, and it is not primarily an issue of character skill levels. If the problem is not primarily caused or perpetuated by the skill levels of characters than it stands to reason that a good solution would have nothing to do with them either. Otherwise you simply add problems with no directly associated gain for the problems that are added. One such problem is the high number of characters who are already all-rounders, in some respect, that would therfore cause the proposed solution with those type of requirements to alienate almost the entire current gamebase of dedicated long-term characters. Because, no matter what you say, power granted to someone else /does/ make your character /comparably/ weaker.

Whatever benefits that you may think this solution would grant, it is hard to make the argument that it is worth doing that to the players who have stuck around this long. From my point of view, THIS is the main point of disagreement. You see specialization as being something worth encouraging. I see this particular solution for doing it as not being worth the costs.

Perhaps if the advantage was particularly weak at high levels than this solution would work (assuming that outside sources are available to fulfill the other required tasks, such as gathering). What if the only solution was an increased production speed on one's chosen "specialist" profession that drops off to zero by 70% or 80% skill? This would encourage specialization in new characters by making it easier to focus on the one area but would not cause any change at higher skill levels, therfore preserving the end-game effects of high skill. It would also help solve the problem that people have pointed out about certain skills taking so painfully long to learn.
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Re: Alleskönner/Allrounders

Post by GolfLima »

:arrow: Messe in Varshikar (war schon)
Handwerksmeister (1.Platz) = 30 Silber

:arrow: "The tournament of heros" (Ankündigung) (( http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 49#p656849 ))
Champion of the tournament (1.Platz) = 25 Gold :!:

:arrow: warum gibt es wohl so wenig Handwerker, und dann sind die auch noch Alleskönner :?:
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