Druidry druid?

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Is the druid system very druidy?

Very druid like, exactly what i envision when I think of a druid.
5
13%
Kind of I guess, it's a bit like what i think a druid should be.
12
30%
If by druid you mean glorified potion factory; i don't see the vision.
23
58%
 
Total votes: 40

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Post by Athian » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:33 am

Druidry druid?

Hiya folks, poll time again.

I want to hear what you all think of our current druid system/alchemy system.

Do you find it to be well, 'druidy'?

Do you feel that the current druid/alchemy system is equivalent to, greater than or less than the mage magic system despite their respective differences?

Do you feel that the druid/alchemy system is a good match for potential druid RP? does using it make you want to RP like a druid?

Lastly if you had some suggestions for the druid/alchemy system (different runes, new potions, different abilities) what would they be and why?

Looking for all opinions, whether you play a character using the system or not. Have fun.

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Post by Pugnacious » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:41 am

Re: Druidry druid.

In my limited experience with druids. I always thought of being a druid or a medico as a RP option. Making potions, with the game engine is just performing alchemy.
I do think the system works better than the mage system though.

Not enough druid players of late though.

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Post by Jupiter » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:47 am

Re: Druidry druid.

The ALCHEMY system is being reworked currently. The first thing to go is the "druid potion". One of the most stupid things I ever saw ig.
Honestly, once there was even a book ig which said: "Druids are often also alchemist."
There is a difference bteween being an alchemist and brewing potions and being a servant of nature who seeks for knwoledge and balance of nature and stuff etc
Last edited by Jupiter on Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Caynwyn » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:47 am

Re: Druidry druid.

I am a little sad to say that druids aren't roleplayed as druids anymore. There are too many variations of the alchemist with another profession and the druid as a profession in it's own right is no more except for a few die-hards. The reason I originally decided to play a druid was due to anticipated roleplay of the profession using some of these principles as in Moonsilver. The combination of potion making at the time was not high priority as other aspects of the roleplay including the neutrality portion which would help with arguments and set the druid as possible advisers like druids of old.

I would very much like to see druidry again roleplayed as a profession on it's own, and see more druid magic involved i.e. other then potion-making.

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Post by Athian » Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:11 am

Re: Druidry druid.

@Jupiter

Yes i understand your thinking that a druid is an RP thing and no a technical thing however at any vocation of magic (mage, battlemage, warlock, witch, soceror etc) is supported by the magic system. The 'alchemy system is far from magical at all, and doesn't really add value to RP the way the magic system does.

---

In my own opinion, I like the 'alchemy system' but I feel like that what people were originally hoping for was a druidry system which would be something like a counterbalance to our only magic system. The current 'alchemy' system however is the furthest thing from a magic system, it's actually a crafting system.

In that sense there really isn't any counterbalancing system to the magic system. That anyone can use it except for mage's is the only real separation between the two things. It's a simple production system that really isn't all to different then black-smithing or carpentry in it's process. For that reason I find 'alchemy' runes to just be cool but out of place, why does a crafting system need to have such invasive runes that allow you to look at a characters attributes for example.*shrug*

I will say, The potions are awesome, every one of them (especially the transformation ones) ^^

Still it seems to me like the system started out as a magic system and then somewhere along the line it was got ripped to shred and put together again in a sort of hodgepodge of old idea's and new ones. It became an easy to get, no attributes needed every man's sort of thing and really lost the vibe of being anything special at all.

Most warriors IG just use it as an add on.

What I would like to see "an actual druid system, or at least some real 'magic' to the current 'alchemy system' that would make it a bit more mystical and a lot less workshop. This would allow people to really have some 'magic' that wasn't mage magic that could be associated with a druid.

that my opinion anyway.

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Post by GolfLima » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:34 pm

Re: Druidry druid?

Zur Zeit ist das Druidensystem eher ein Alchemiesystem und so ziemlich jeder Spieler, der nicht Magier ist, ist Alchemist (wenigstens im "Nebenberuf"). Die Runen dafür sind zum Teil auch nicht wirklich hilfreich oder von Bedeutung, sodaß das Spielen eines Druiden auf reinem rp beruht. Ob das gut ist oder schlecht ... auf jeden Fall gibt es nur wenige Druiden ..... und ein wirkliches Alleinstellungsmerkmal haben sie nicht. Bis auf das rp unterscheidet ja einen Druiden NICHTS von einem Alchemisten ... und die Rezepte sind ja scheinbar leider weit verbreitet ... warum auch immer. Um das "Druidensystem" attraktiver zu machen wäre es meines Erachtens notwendig etwas zu haben, was den Druiden von den vielen anderen Alchemisten unterscheidet, und was nur Er kann. Außerdem war das "Druiden- / Alchemiesystem" wohl ´mal als Ergänzung oder Gegensatz zum Magiesystem gedacht. Davon ist es weit entfernt - es ist zur Zeit eher ein Handwerk, welches wie jedes andere auch gelernt wird, nur das man eben noch Rezepte benötigt. Eine wirkliche Alternative / Ergänzung / Gegenstück zum Magiesystem ist es nicht - aber wer weis, wie es nach dem VBU aussieht, ich laß mich da überraschen. Bis dahin werden die wenigen Druiden wohl weiterhin ein Schattendasein fristen, was ich übrigens gar nicht so schlimm finde (besser als wenn Jeder ein Druide wäre). und nicht zuletzt ist das Druidentum auch eine Frage der Einstellung / Gesinnung des Charakters ... :wink:
:arrow: es wäre wohl eher sehr ruhig wenn ganz Gobaith nur von Druiden bevölkert wäre.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:27 am

Re: Druidry druid?

From my point of view, the current druid magic system is a technical bastard that features many wierdnesses such as the "overflow" of a ingredient and strange herb copies that look alike but have totally different values. Also, the effects of potions are, mildly spoken, a huge swarm of bugs. It is good news that the system gets reworked!

One should keep one thing in mind; Illarion's druids were always alchemists, potion brewers I mean. Never was there another system in place that e.g. gave druids control over animals. Also, the Illarion lore on druids is shallow to non existant. Thus, most visions of druids are influenced by other worlds as it seems. Keep this in mind when discussing; Illarion is not Forgotten Realms 2.0. This does not mean that I am satisfied with Illarion's druidism ;-)!

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Post by Jupiter » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:46 pm

Re: Druidry druid?

Estralis Seborian wrote:Also, the Illarion lore on druids is shallow to non existant.
I would say we have this background. It has been created by druids ig over years. I call myself one of them.

If you mean written somewhere down, then yes, there is no background except one article. I guess this is something which should change (and will?) with the VBU ;)

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:10 pm

Re: Druidry druid?

Druid lore is passed from teacher to apprentice in game and has been for as long as I have been playing, mainly as example of the druid roleplay versus teaching of potion-making. There are bits and pieces written which encompass quests etc. but nothing that you can point to and say "this is the druid lore" except possibly imaging a char living by the codex of the druids versus other professions. The skill, making of potions, has not been the main part of a char being a druid in game which is why the druids were still roleplayed successfully for a long time when potion making was removed from the skills. :wink:

Perhaps the wording is misleading i.e. "druid magic"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/magic
Definition of MAGIC
1 a : the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces b : magic rites or incantations
2 a : an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source b : something that seems to cast a spell : enchantment
3 : the art of producing illusions by sleight of hand

Perhaps if ONLY potion crafting is involved, "druid magic" as it is now should best be called "alchemy crafting" and simply eliminate the druid "profession" as a choice since most use potion making with their main profession (which isn't alchemy usually)?

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Post by Rafael » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:09 am

Re: Druidry druid?

I'm the only one that sees the options of the poll created to make the players vote only one option? (the one that sounds cool)

Though, yeah, just potion making, no druidism. Thought I got fond of the matemathical system that rules potion making.

In a second line of thought, if the druids are lacking or badly played, you also have to blame the old druid guild that had done a crappy work teaching in the past, even more encouraging that sort of rp.

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Post by Athian » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:29 am

Re: Druidry druid?

Rafael wrote:I'm the only one that sees the options of the poll created to make the players vote only one option? (the one that sounds cool)
I'm not sure what you mean on the first part there but by the sound of it, you seem to have a very low opinion of your fellow players. It's like saying the voters here are so stupid that they can't see past the cosmetic level of the text and answer a question honestly...I'd have to disagree with you on that point.
In a second line of thought, if the druids are lacking or badly played, you also have to blame the old druid guild that had done a crappy work teaching in the past, even more encouraging that sort of rp.
I can agree partly with this second statement, though I feel not many were interested in playing druids without some type of 'druid' system to begin with. Lets face it, RP magic can only really take a role so far. I imagine that the same thing would have happened in reverse if there was a in-depth druid system and no magic system. The mage's of Illarion would be what the druids are now, if not worse. A magical class without any magic wasn't attractive to the larger portion of the community, it's not fault of 'crappy' teaching. Whose there to teach when everyone either wants the flashiness of a mage or wants to PG there powerful warrior?

---

I digress

Thanks to everyone who has voted so far. I'd like to hear more idea's on how you'd improve on the current system of things. things like, New runes and new potions would be a fine place to start.

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Post by Rafael » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:41 am

Re: Druidry druid?

I'm not sure what you mean on the first part there but by the sound of it, you seem to have a very low opinion of your fellow players. It's like saying the voters here are so stupid that they can't see past the cosmetic level of the text and answer a question honestly...I'd have to disagree with you on that point.
I'm the only one that sees here fairly simplistic manipulation of the players opinion to get them on his side while innocently mocking me in order to avoid confrontating the fact in order to make a poll the guy that makes it should be neutral? That goes to the bigger issue of, I'm the only one that sees here that a CM has no skill to deal with criticism without attacking the other player and get all emotional?

Don't worry Athian, I'm just screwing a bit with your mind, is so easy sometimes I get tempted. I don't want a flame war, I'm not into that. Back to prawling mode.

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Post by Athian » Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:00 am

Re: Druidry druid?

So when I disagree with you I'm emotional and can't take criticism without attacking you another player. When you don't agree with me on the other hand you're allowed to fly off the handle and accuse me of being the one whose emotionally charged and start attacking me? :lol: classic

Well actually I'm not feeling all to emotional at all and i certainly don't feel screwed with or whatever. When I wrote the thing I merely decided to use words other then yes, maybe and no. There really wasn't anything more behind it; I'm not attacking you. However it really does sound rather like you're saying that people will see these three choices and be struck blind deaf and dumb, losing all there ability to think rationally or provide a competent answer, I don't agree with that. I'm not really seeing any personal attacks on you in anything I wrote.


I actually stated that I like the alchemy system what other system lets you be a dragon :D. So far I think those who have stopped to post have given decent feedback on both ends of the spectrum.

Anyway lets take it from the top.

Do you find it to be well, 'druidy'?

Do you feel that the current druid/alchemy system is equivalent to, greater than or less than the mage magic system despite their respective differences?

Do you feel that the druid/alchemy system is a good match for potential druid RP? does using it make you want to RP like a druid?

Lastly if you had some suggestions for the druid/alchemy system (different runes, new potions, different abilities) what would they be and why?
Feel free to answer any of these questions on your next post, id like to hear your opinion on these more then your opinion on how a poll is worded. IF you had any real problem with it i would gladly have accepted a PM which asked to reword the choices, or redo the poll, if you thought all the responses were swayed soley by how it was worded. If i was unable to deal with criticism I certainly didn't lack the ability to lock this poll and allow voting only :wink:. It was left open for criticism on both sides, your own included Rafael. I'll ask you to just stick to topic if you plan to post again, leave the trolling at the door.

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Post by Leon Demelii » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:31 am

Re: Druidry druid?

Do you find it to be well, 'druidy'?
I find it secretive ;) That, with the high risks and high rewards make it 'druidy' I think. So yes.
Do you feel that the current druid/alchemy system is equivalent to, greater than or less than the mage magic system despite their respective differences?
I just recently got the courage to begin a mage character and already I can see it's much more work. But being two completely different things, that's expected. With all differences aside, I think the mage magic system is "greater", where the druid system although has wonderful and fun tricks, it can be "lesser".
Do you feel that the druid/alchemy system is a good match for potential druid RP? does using it make you want to RP like a druid?
Yes, I enjoy RPing as much potion making and try to do it as much as possible. Not just using potions, but using the herbs for wounds and treatments can be enjoyable and great RP.
Lastly if you had some suggestions for the druid/alchemy system (different runes, new potions, different abilities) what would they be and why?
Though I still am discovering...I think they got a great amount of potion varieties and ideas already.
The runes for the druid system is well done in my opinion. Getting them as you go seems right to me, as well as the abilities that come with them.

Overall, I'm happy with it. That might be because I've come to understand it much more and not pulling my hair out anymore trying to understand it all. :mrgreen:

Edit: One thing I disagree with. And I will only say the two words because everyone that plays a druid knows... Gem Dust :evil:

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Post by Copper Dragon » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:14 am

Re: Druidry druid?

This may be a bad idea but here goes. What is a druid and what would you like to see in a druids abilities? Going back into historical lore of the celtics, druids were teachers, lore keepers, shamans, diplomats, and a few other things rolled into one. They provided a social and spirtual cohesion for their tribes.

Now with the addition of magic the role will change a bit but to provide a coherent system for the druid the goals, abilities and lore needs to be defined clearly to have a clear path to follow. The alchemist is simply a crafter. Do you want alchemist to continue and in what form. Do druids have potions unavailable to alchemists? Do druids have other abilities that make them special? Do certian armors or weapons enhance/hinder a druids abilities? What lore is needed to provide a base for the potential druid to build on? Mages are "flashy" and get attention. The druids need a draw to help maintain interest in the class with lore to support what ever direction the druid class is to be taken. I have read this thread through twice and will likely read it again but with all that has been said, not much has been defined to give a direction. This is not ment to offend but is merely my observations.

Now this is my thoughts on druids.
Most likely the first druids were of elven decent so that should color the lore a good bit. With the addition of other races things will get altered in ways fitting to what race adds to the lore. Haflings may add or alter to fit a farming lifestyle. Lizardfolk would bring the underwater world including lakes and streams into the picture as well as diet alterations. Humans being so diverse in cultures will bring unseen changes to fit enviroment, lifestyle, and diet. Each race also has their own beliefs and that will color what area they are in. This provides many paths for a druid to follow and still maintaining the heart of druids class.

This is just my two copper for you to consider or dismiss as you like. The steps as I see them; define, invision, apply, create, adjust.

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Post by Arcatius » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:45 am

Re: Druidry druid?

I understand that I am a new player and I am not very knowledgeable on the subject of Illarion and that my opinion is not one that should hold much weight in the long run.

Do you find it to be well, 'druidy'?
That is a very vague question. If I were to compare it to some role playing games, I would say that it was not incredibly "druidy" at all as I don't have an animal companion and I cannot request the assistance of nature. On the other hand, I believe that it takes a more realistic approach in that it doesn't exactly pertain to a magic system. The dragon transformation potion is certainly an example of a magical effect, but the class can be role played without any magic use at all. I personally play as an actual druid, not just an alchemist, and I never act like I am using any form of magic, but am instead very trained in my craft, which it seems to be more like. Overall, I get the "old man in a forest grotto mixing up a witch's brew" kind of druid rather than a champion of nature who communes with the trees and acts as an advocate of forest.

Do you feel that the current druid/alchemy system is equivalent to, greater than or less than the mage magic system despite their respective differences?
I have no experience with magic as a player, but I do witness it a lot and have friends who played mages. It seems that they take a long time to become powerful, but I don't think that a steep learning curve is an effective balancing mechanism. The fact is that if a player enjoys the game and character, they will become a better mage. With their slowly building skills, I imagine that They could overpower just about any other play in a duel. I also feel that some inequality comes from the incredible versatility that the mages have in regards to the convenience of teleportation or the ability to raise walls of stone. I understand the idea of the mana bar being a balancing mechanism, but it seems that many spells, with proper skill, take very little or no mana to cast such as healing spells. Taking the "end-game" version of the mage, I think that the druid system is definitely lesser to the magic system.

Do you feel that the druid/alchemy system is a good match for potential druid RP? does using it make you want to RP like a druid?
I feel that this is an important thing to address. As a druid, my character would want to be good at the druid crafts such as alchemy. On the other hand, he wouldn't go about shredding up the local flora like a farming patch to find herbs. Compared to alchemists, which would likely find this a much more acceptable practice, the idea of role playing a druid makes it much more difficult to play the class without any benefit over those who choose to play as the alchemist. As much as I want to play as a full blown druid, I need to go through some intense harvesting that doesn't fit a druid, I need to make potions like a profession rather than "druidy" things because making potions that I need for said "druidy" activities costs a substantial quantity at early levels.

Lastly if you had some suggestions for the druid/alchemy system (different runes, new potions, different abilities) what would they be and why?
I couldn't really say what I would change; again due to my lack of knowledge about the game as a whole. I have my preconceived notions of druids, but that may not be what the developers are striving for. I would probably guess that if I had to pick some kind of new abilities, I would possibly add a rune that increased the growth rate of plants?
Overall, I have probably said more than I had any right to, but as an opinion thread I thought I would share my perspective as a new player. I honestly enjoy the game and the druid class and I intend to keep playing it. I especially like the potion system with the logic-puzzle like mechanic and, dare I say, the powder mechanic (not saying I like the price, but the powder is a cool touch). I hope this shows some insights and I am open to comments.

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Post by Orioli » Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:11 am

Re: Druidry druid?

I find it extremely reliant on work outside the game. It should be more character friendly so that the product of the druid is gotten by action of the character, not the mind of the PO. It is very hard to play a druid who actually has time to interact with other characters. mho 8)

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Post by Lennier » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:58 pm

Re: Druidry druid?

In the early days of Illarion we had 8 different herbs to make 4 or 5 different potions. That was the whole system of brewing. All other aspects of druids were roleplayed.

Later we had more herbs but no brewing system. The complete druidism based on roleplay in use of ideas of few players with some knowledge about the old brewing system. No engine support.

Today and after VBU we have lots of herbs and hundrets of different potions with lots of different effects. It is still more like a crafting system. But that it was in the begin too. The brewing system has some great improvements and advantages. Some disadvantages get solved with VBU and I hope that you can spend more time in your roleplaying again instead only to go on hunt for nearly not foundable but neccessary herbs.

My thinks about druids are: They are wise men or women with knowledge about the nature with the ability to use the nature for their own interests. There is no need to implement something like magic or godlike power, even though the nature is created and influenced by the gods. But to speak to the gods we have [roleplayed] priests and to use the power we have mages. Of course you can use other names instead of 'druid': scholars, alchemists, witchs, shamans, old wizened hallfings... It is not important in my opinion.

In summary:

Big problem is that we never defined what druids should be officially. There are lots of different opinions and in history of Illarion druids were handled differently. The big lack was that we never had a consistent system. The big advantage was that we had player. They used the few things we had to create much more. More or less the druidism was the school of (self created) knowledge about why the system works like it works. It allways was only a interpretation of the engine for better roleplaying.


You can compare the whole druid thing with the magic system. Take a look on the engine. It is simple (more or less). But take a look what happens in use of player created theories about the magic, like in the school of Djironnyma or some other. Only by these self created interpretations in view of ingame chars the magic system become special.

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Post by David Turner » Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:53 am

Re: Druidry druid?

Do you find it to be well, 'druidy'?

Mostly. If you ignore the possibility of "our druids are different", RL druids are usually people who supposedly use the magic contained within plants and animals in order to cause different effects. Sometimes these effects are distilled for personal use, sometimes those things are manipulated within their original "containers" in order to get certain effects (usually through the use of those distilled effects). Commonly they also become a combination with shamen type spiritualists (with all the authority that comes with it) or deep-immersion hermits (with the identification with nature that goes with that); but this is not wholly necessary to be a "druid". The religious aspect of it is more difficult to define as they tend to be more secretive than other groups and most secondary knowledge is about the effects, since those are verifiable and more likely to be written down by outside observers (so I can't really comment on how consistent those particular beliefs are). The "end game" state of a druid is similar to a blood mage, distilling power from the corpses of animals or sometimes humans in order to gain greater effect than can be otherwise gained.

So, quite honestly, the druid system is very close to real life (assuming that you believe that RL druids are actually doing anything). Just add a potion of "charm animal" and replace the runes with potion effects that do the same thing, and there you go.

Do you feel that the current druid/alchemy system is equivalent to, greater than or less than the mage magic system despite their respective differences?

Both get a lot of versatility in their spells whereas the druid/alchemist's power seems less because everyone has access to it (assuming that they have the money to buy potions from someone who is a druid). The areas where mages outshine druids/alchemists are their teleport spell, utility battle spells (stun, wall, whirlwind), and the fact that they don't have to spend money on every casting (they use mana). Druids have stat enhancers, non-combat utility potions (language potions, transformation potions), the ability to help allies without having to be physically present (passing out potions), the ability to make money by selling potions, and the possibility of a nearly endless supply of "magic" not hindered by mana (they buy bottles/herbs/gem dust). Druids are also not restricted by "necessary" stats and have an easier time skilling (more on that later). Both have attack spells (with them topping out similarly), healing (though mages are probably better at it), and can be interrupted (the reason why mage healing beats out druid healing, but also the reason why druid attack spells very well may beat out the higher end mage attack spells in some cases).

So then the biggest two things that separate them is that anyone can use a druid's potions, and druids don't have the same stat and leveling requirements. The first makes a druid seem unbelievably weak because anyone (even a mage) has the ability to have access to the majority of a druid's power. The argument there is, "why build a druid/alchemist when you can just build a mage and buy the potions?" The counterargument is that druids with stock are hard to find and you are better off just making your own and having as much as you want. The lack of stat requirements and having only one skill to raise is what more than makes up for that weakness (Herb Lore being the skill, Alchemy only needs to be high enough to check the quality of herbs). For the vast majority of mages (even battle mages) a similarly experienced warrior can wipe the floor with them if they get close. A warrior needs to build 4 skills while a battle mage needs to raise the same 4 plus 3 or 4 more skills that raise more slowly while a battle alchemist needs to raise only 5 skills; this means that "end game build" is not the right place to look for an even comparison. The stat difference means that a battle druid generally has a MINIMUM of 20 more stat points to put into their physical stats than a battle mage, assuming that they bottom out their "unnecessary" stats and the mage has bottomed out their mage stats to the minimum required to learn magic (using human numbers). If a mage doesn't bottom out those stats, than the difference is much bigger. How big a deal is 20 extra stat points? Out of a total of 84 total points, that is about a quarter; and out of the avalable ~58 points (once minum stats are taken into consideration), that is about a third of your total points that you have to spend. And that is assuming that the mage optimizes for battle rather than for casting ability, which is a choice that a Druid/Alchemist does not have to make.

I'm going to have to say that druids are more powerful, an obvious comparison. Especially since the high level skilling process for mages is so difficult that maxed mages are pretty rare.

Do you feel that the druid/alchemy system is a good match for potential druid RP? does using it make you want to RP like a druid?

As answered above, it is a good match for a RL druid but not necessarily for a D&D druid (which is what most people think when they hear the term "druid"). D&D druids are basically mages with a nature specalization, improved familiar, and extra "polymorph self" spells.

As for the idea that the rules could force someone into playing a certain way, as it seem by the "want to RP like a druid" statement; that is something I take some issue with. Some characters using the mage system are "wizards" and some call themselves "shamans" and some have other terms for themselves. I don't believe that the system should force you to RP in ore way or another, because that is restricting to the one thing about this game that truly makes it fun. If you want to play a game where you are forced to be a nature lover simply because you use alchemy/druidity, than there are plenty of games where you can do that. But I would pleasantly ask you to not try to make this be one of them.

So, no, I don't think it makes me specifically want to RP like a druid, though that is a strong direction that it can take. But I believe that this lack of imposed direction is a good thing.

Lastly if you had some suggestions for the druid/alchemy system (different runes, new potions, different abilities) what would they be and why?

Give druids/alchemists an ability that makes their potions work better on themselves or other alchemists than it does on everyone else. This would add in some of the exclusivity that makes Mages appear so powerful despite the fact that Druids/alchemists are actually more powerful. Perhaps replace that one rune that supposedly transfers skill.

Do something about the stupidly high price of gem dust, it isn't even craftable.

Add in some variations on well used potions, such as bombs that are more easily used at point black range.

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Post by Athian » Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:55 am

Re: Druidry druid?

Do you feel that the current druid/alchemy system is equivalent to, greater than or less than the mage magic system despite their respective differences?

Both get a lot of versatility in their spells whereas the druid/alchemist's power seems less because everyone has access to it (assuming that they have the money to buy potions from someone who is a druid). The areas where mages outshine druids/alchemists are their teleport spell, utility battle spells (stun, wall, whirlwind), and the fact that they don't have to spend money on every casting (they use mana). Druids have stat enhancers, non-combat utility potions (language potions, transformation potions), the ability to help allies without having to be physically present (passing out potions), the ability to make money by selling potions, and the possibility of a nearly endless supply of "magic" not hindered by mana (they buy bottles/herbs/gem dust). Druids are also not restricted by "necessary" stats and have an easier time skilling (more on that later). Both have attack spells (with them topping out similarly), healing (though mages are probably better at it), and can be interrupted (the reason why mage healing beats out druid healing, but also the reason why druid attack spells very well may beat out the higher end mage attack spells in some cases).

So then the biggest two things that separate them is that anyone can use a druid's potions, and druids don't have the same stat and leveling requirements. The first makes a druid seem unbelievably weak because anyone (even a mage) has the ability to have access to the majority of a druid's power. The argument there is, "why build a druid/alchemist when you can just build a mage and buy the potions?" The counterargument is that druids with stock are hard to find and you are better off just making your own and having as much as you want. The lack of stat requirements and having only one skill to raise is what more than makes up for that weakness (Herb Lore being the skill, Alchemy only needs to be high enough to check the quality of herbs). For the vast majority of mages (even battle mages) a similarly experienced warrior can wipe the floor with them if they get close. A warrior needs to build 4 skills while a battle mage needs to raise the same 4 plus 3 or 4 more skills that raise more slowly while a battle alchemist needs to raise only 5 skills; this means that "end game build" is not the right place to look for an even comparison. The stat difference means that a battle druid generally has a MINIMUM of 20 more stat points to put into their physical stats than a battle mage, assuming that they bottom out their "unnecessary" stats and the mage has bottomed out their mage stats to the minimum required to learn magic (using human numbers). If a mage doesn't bottom out those stats, than the difference is much bigger. How big a deal is 20 extra stat points? Out of a total of 84 total points, that is about a quarter; and out of the avalable ~58 points (once minum stats are taken into consideration), that is about a third of your total points that you have to spend. And that is assuming that the mage optimizes for battle rather than for casting ability, which is a choice that a Druid/Alchemist does not have to make.

I enjoyed reading this paragraph though i can think of a few warriors who would disgaree with most of this :wink:(though its a good theory). I would love to explain to you exactly why so many of the things you've said here prove to be untrue but i think that would take a long time so I'll refrain.

Remember one thing

It only takes a single low end attribute to make a character vulnerable to even terrible casters. This is the reason why most warriors will die to just about any mage that has QWAN and 30% skill. Frankly there magical defense attribute is so low that a mage with casting power base of 10 int(minimum) is absolutely no different to them then a mage with 20 int base (maximum) of casting power as far as said warrior can tell. Hard capping and minimizing are your enemies, so in that way the druidry system being without requirement doesn't change anything. If you make a magic weak character that won't change.

---

I did find in older threads that at least a few mage's did believe that the druid system was too powerful because there was a potion for everything. That's exactly how i think it should remain personally. Druidry has more versatility then mage magic and mage magic has much better utility then druidry, that sounds like a fine balance to me. What I think holds druidry back in scale is (and many will agree) the herb's, all of them need to be more plentiful, though not all to the same degree. I also do agree that we should have a system that allows a druid to have greater benefit from potions. Sadly at least at the moment anyone who simply drinks the druid potion will gain such a benefit, they wouldn't actually need to use any of the skills, they would only need the client to recognize them as a druid. I wouldn't call that something that would improve the druidry system, it would just make being a technical druid more appealing to exploit ^^

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Post by David Turner » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:13 pm

Re: Druidry druid?

Athian wrote: I enjoyed reading this paragraph though i can think of a few warriors who would disgaree with most of this :wink:(though its a good theory). I would love to explain to you exactly why so many of the things you've said here prove to be untrue but i think that would take a long time so I'll refrain.

Remember one thing

It only takes a single low end attribute to make a character vulnerable to even terrible casters. This is the reason why most warriors will die to just about any mage that has QWAN and 30% skill. Frankly there magical defense attribute is so low that a mage with casting power base of 10 int(minimum) is absolutely no different to them then a mage with 20 int base (maximum) of casting power as far as said warrior can tell. Hard capping and minimizing are your enemies, so in that way the druidry system being without requirement doesn't change anything. If you make a magic weak character that won't change.

---

I did find in older threads that at least a few mage's did believe that the druid system was too powerful because there was a potion for everything. That's exactly how i think it should remain personally. Druidry has more versatility then mage magic and mage magic has much better utility then druidry, that sounds like a fine balance to me. What I think holds druidry back in scale is (and many will agree) the herb's, all of them need to be more plentiful, though not all to the same degree. I also do agree that we should have a system that allows a druid to have greater benefit from potions. Sadly at least at the moment anyone who simply drinks the druid potion will gain such a benefit, they wouldn't actually need to use any of the skills, they would only need the client to recognize them as a druid. I wouldn't call that something that would improve the druidry system, it would just make being a technical druid more appealing to exploit ^^

The "Magic Resistance" skill can be raised without having high WP, but most just don't take the time to do it because it raises very slowly and most just find it more efficient to be able to kill things faster. That is a mistake and you described exactly why it is a mistake, though that doesn't mean that wariors are incapable of fighting back. It simply takes weeks worth of training to overcome their weakness. Fighting a mage takes a completely different build than fighting a warrior, so it is little surprise that warriors who trained their skill vs other warriors and has armor that is suited for that goal will do badly against mages. (ie: they think it will work to wear full plate and dual wield axes while chasing down that mage--derp, derp) And even if you do make sure that your WP is up to average levels, that still leaves you with about 13 or so points to spend in other areas. And that is before you count in the fact that mages have to raise 3 or 4 extra skills that are slow to increase whereas Druids/Alchemists do not.

That said, I'm not saying "nerf the druids" or anything like that. They have their own limitations that they need to deal with, the end result is that druids are limited by "time". But a well prepared druid who decides to go all-out and put everything into an attack is absolutely not something that you can ignore and will overwhelm most enemies. I'm also not saying min/max your way to victory. But, in a discussion about balancing, this is something that needs to be addressed because min/maxing focuses on the issue of the true limits of power. I'm also not saying that there are no issues that need to be addressed with Alchemy. But it is a lot smaller than many of the other problems that other things have; druidism/alchemy requires fine tuning while some other things just need replaced. I also recognize that most things have conditions that can make them overpowered. Magic is unbalanced against the unprepared, while druidism is unbalanced for the extremely prepared; but neither seems to be unbalanced to the point where it is an auto-win button. Having two tools is always a lot more powerful than only having access to one, and druid magic has the advantage of not requiring one to give up anything to get it.

So the real question, as far as I see it, is: are the counterbalancing attributes (necessary time to find herbs, the cost of gem bust) reasonable considering the advantages, or are they overburdening? I would personally say that the down sides are too great, but I also recognize that going too far to fix them would turn the situation into "free potions for everyone", which nobody wants. That's one reason I try to always respect those people who approach balance changes with the appropriate time and care; because I understand just how difficult it can be to fix one problem without creating another.

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Post by Athian » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:14 am

Re: Druidry druid?

You're incorrect on the assumption about magic resistance because you lack the understanding about skill efficiency.

I've played NPC's with 3-6 will/ess and 100 magic resistance. This does pretty much nothing to protect them from magic, because even with skill they're highly inefficient. same reason why a mage with 3 strength won't do huge damage with a staff even if they have 100 concussion weapons skill. as to skill raising, in truth mage's really only need one skill and that's Commotio to be directly dangerous against the current warrior build and they really don't need all to much of it. I suggest you talk to a few of the mage's you know and ask them how high there magic skills are.

that being said I'd gladly take on any maxed out battle-druid any day of the week if you need proof ^^
But a well prepared druid who decides to go all-out and put everything into an attack is absolutely not something that you can ignore and will overwhelm most enemies.
I counter this assumption with the mage anti personnel option.

Paralyze+Ice fire+Paralyze+walk away (good luck throwing or drinking anything ^^) /mini troll :P

I digress though that's all off-topic

Since alchemy is so item dependent in every aspect it's really hard to call it battle useful. it runs on a finite and not immediately/automatically restoring reserve. Then add into that the many factors you spoke of: Price of dusts, time spent gathering herbs and in addition to quality of herbs effecting potions quality over skill. alchemy isn't a direct combat system like the magic system is but it could certainly do with being a bit less cumbersome in a few key area's. Sadly I don't personally know enough about the system to say which places those would be.

I don't know if buffing or nerfing alchemy itself will actually do much to stop a mass influx of potions should that ever become popular. Perhaps though there might be a benefit in being not druid or mage that might edge of on the "any non mage drink a druid potion" Scenario. Or requirements to alchemy that make it a touch more exclusive. It used to be people complaining all day and night that magic wasn't special and there were to many mage's. I honestly wish mages had gotten as much slack as druid/alchemists have even though they're quite abundant themselves :wink: (more so then mages currently).

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Post by David Turner » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: Druidry druid?

Ok, so even a character with a 10 in WP still has 14 or so extra points to spend. Are you trying to say that this is a trivial thing? Or, even if the mage doesn't raise Pervestigatio and Decisio (and what mage doesn't raise those skills?), the one skill they do raise takes a lot longer than Herb Lore to raise. Are you trying to say that this is inconsequential as well? And, as I said before, the best comparison isn't with maxed out skilled characters, it is with characters who have spent similar amounts of time raising the skill of their characters. Druids can use coin to get around their time requirement by buying herbs, mages cannot.

I already mentioned that I believed that the downsides were too great. But I also can't deny the fact that druids can make bombs that are something like 1-2 shot kills against nearly anyone and that they can throw them at opponents far more quickly and without the same downsides that a mage's spells have. It takes a lot to do this, to the point where I say the downsides are too great, but when a person is willing to pay those costs I see the druid as being more powerful.

mini counter troll/ I counter your anti-personnel option with a bomb to the face while you are casting Paralyze (it is faster and interrupts your spell). Bomb to the face wins! /mini counter troll :roll:

My only point was that Druidism/Alchemy is power without the same burden of requirements. Why are you so angered by my opinion that this makes it more powerful? You appear to have a certain idea about how everything is supposed to be viewed and cannot stand a different opinion (at least in this area and in this thread). If your goal is to gather information and promote discussion, than this is the wrong way to go about things. But if your goal is to shut down other ideas and other points of view than all you will likely accomplish is to make yourself look too biased to be taken seriously on this particular subject. (ie: let's try to keep this from getting personal. We are allowed to have different opinions, after-all)

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Post by GolfLima » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:36 pm

Re: Druidry druid?

Druids can use coin to get around their time requirement by buying herbs, mages cannot.
:arrow: this might be right for most of the herbs, for some otheres not and i never meet a rich druid, may be you are meaning alchemists, but not druids.
:arrow: and as i know there are a lot of receipts a druid should learn or find out.
the fact that druids can make bombs that are something like 1-2 shot kills
:arrow: druids normally try to avoid fights ... they are nonfighters - they try to escape, may be some druids have the possibility to make such bombs (not all druids), but they dont walk around and throw bombs
:arrow: i dont know if alchemist this would do, but normal alchemists have another craft as her main craft (fighting?)

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Post by David Turner » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:49 pm

Re: Druidry druid?

Back on topic, the extreme herb rarity issue is supposed to be fixed after the VBU. I think I remember someone somewhere saying that gem dust would be craftable as well, though I might be mistaken. If this is true than it should fix a lot of the major issues.

The other problem is that, currently, the only real reasons to be a druid/alchemist (besides RP concerns) is so that you don't have to wait in line to pay for potions and because Mage magic has stat and teacher requirements. Even if bard and priest magic were introduced today, the niche of a requirement-lacking "magic" system would still be needed. This may be the ultimate position of Druidism/Alchemy. As for the idea that magic being common is a problem; in a world that is animated by magic, people commonly having access to magic doesn't seem to be a big problem.

And as for the big influx of avalable potions that would come after the herd and gem issues are resolved, I would personally wait to see how big an issue that actually is before looking to correct it. Ever since potions could no longer be bought, people have been saying that potions are too rare. This may actually serve to help correct the problem rather than swing to the other side in making another one.

Honestly, until those two issues are resolved (herb rarity, dust cost) it is nearly impossible to think about resolving any other problems because the effects of the first will be so widespread that the entire situation won't be the same. We can talk about new potions and runes all we want, but only so long as we recognize that it is without context. For instance, a rune that makes potions more powerful seems ok now, but may be overpowered when people are more able to find the ingredients for superior potions.

That's about all I really have to say on fixing things.

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Post by David Turner » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:57 pm

Re: Druidry druid?

GolfLima wrote:
Druids can use coin to get around their time requirement by buying herbs, mages cannot.
:arrow: this might be right for most of the herbs, for some otheres not and i never meet a rich druid, may be you are meaning alchemists, but not druids.
:arrow: and as i know there are a lot of receipts a druid should learn or find out.
the fact that druids can make bombs that are something like 1-2 shot kills
:arrow: druids normally try to avoid fights ... they are nonfighters - they try to escape, may be some druids have the possibility to make such bombs (not all druids), but they dont walk around and throw bombs
:arrow: i dont know if alchemist this would do, but normal alchemists have another craft as her main craft (fighting?)
Yes, I was using the term "druid" interchangeably with "alchemist" (I tried to say druid/alchemist every time but slipped up). I'm sorry if that caused some confusion when combined with the in-game idea of what a druid should be. I must have thought this would be acceptable and understood due to the fact that you drink a "druid" potion to learn the "druid" runes and study at the "druid" house even if you are an "alchemist" or whatever else. Furthermore, the issue was never about what the character "would" do, it was about what the character "could" do.

Sorry about the confusion.

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