A VBU Question.

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David Turner
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:32 am

A VBU Question.

Post by David Turner »

I have a simple question that should be easy enough to answer for any staff member or developer.

What, exactly, are the major changes that are going to be happening with the completion of the VBU? For instance, how exactly will skills be changed; to what degree will the new map resemble the old one; etc, etc? Or, if there is some reason why the players should not be told about what changes are being made (while still being asked to help in completing the VBU so that these changes can be made), than what is that reason that it is being kept a secret?

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To be fair I came to ask this question while looking around the forums for information to include about the VBU when working on the task assigned to me by the promotion team. I thought of asking one of them but figured that I would try not to waste their time too much and just looking up what I could find myself. What I found was generally unhelpful or summed up in about three posts (the development checklist, the sneak peak, and the "what is VBU" post). The one reason that someone brought up about why info isn't given is that the direction is already set for the VBU and it is too late in the process to change it. I have no way of knowing if this reason why so little has been said or not, for all I know it may simply be that nobody has asked nicely and with good reason. But if that is the reason than a community wide understanding that any discussion about changes are to be set in a post-VBU context should be acceptable without preventing gainful understandings, I don't know anyone who intentionally means to speak badly about what is being done even if we think about what might come next. Things have gotten much better, in terms of player understanding of what is going on (as evidenced by the development checklist, the sneak peak, the contact page, the promised description of what post-VBU stats will do, etc. ect.), and so this post is only written to ask for more information on this subject and I ask publicly only so that others may also benefit from this understanding alongside of myself.

tl/dr: Besides better graphics, what exactly is changing in the VBU and what would be a good basic description about how it is being changed? I want to talk to people not only about how great the game is but also about how whatever problems they may see are being addressed so that I can convince them to "get in on the ground floor" or to "be a part of that thing before it becomes a thing" and possibly even to "learn what it is like to not only play a game but help build it as well"!
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Vilarion
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Re: A VBU Question.

Post by Vilarion »

Hello and thanks for you interest in the VBU.

Most of the directions have already been set, which is simply because we lack a lot of manpower and cannot allow the VBU goals to change too often, or even rarely. This being said, one of the main goals, besides all the technical stuff, is to create an environment which is much more player friendly in all regards. The client will change, the GUI, many internals, the controls, the server got a major reworking, all kinds of systems change, skilling, fighting, and so on. As for the map: The teaser gives some clues, that there will be vast new maps. Some of these issues have been discussed with players in Estralis' dev talks, like how exactly will skilling work and what will death consequences be in the future. Hopefully we will be able to have more dev talks about interesting topics and with them further possibilities for players to shape the actual design of certain systems.
So what is all that secrecy about? When we started we believed, that bringing the update in one huge bulk would be way more exciting for everybody, than knowing every detail for months or years, seeing little progess or none at all from time to time, again due to our scarce time and (wo)manpower. The parts you mentioned (checklist, teaser, some posts) try to give a little insight into all the exciting new stuff without spoiling too much. After all this talking let me add another tiny spoiler: There will be a long and hopefully interesting line of events and quests leading up to the VBU, and they will start not too far in the future (I cannot tell you when excactly, because the team for that is just forming)

Hopefully this clarified at least some of your questions.

Happy playing,
Vilarion
David Turner
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:32 am

Re: A VBU Question.

Post by David Turner »

Thanks for the reply and the information. Is there any way I can find out about what was said during the tech talks? I can only get to the chat service about half the time and even then it doesn't always work, and add that the fact that my schedule is really unpredictable, and that just leaves me in the dark about what all has been said during those times. Even if all you have is some log files posted somewhere, I can trudge through them if I have some way to find out to know where to look (I'm used to doing research for different things so it isn't a difficult thing for me). Whatever you have would be good, though I do ask that you not spend too much time on it. I'm willing to do whatever work is needed to get the answers that I need, I don't want to make anyone drop what they are doing in any area for my sake.

On another note, my character has been RPing the absence of the Builder (from major projects) and the expectations of change through "rumors" of some sort of "magical disaster" that has been changing the landscape of the mainland and may eventually effect Golbaith as well. Is this in any way appropriate or should I scrap that idea in favor of something else?
Zot
Posts: 1164
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Location: Mount Zotmore

Re: A VBU Question.

Post by Zot »

That's the log of the chat, have fun:

Code: Select all

(22:06:05) Estralis: Hello :-)
(22:06:27) Estralis: Thanks for attending, everyone. 
(22:06:53) Crosis [webchat@67-4-11-1.sxfl.qwest.net] hat den Raum betreten.
(22:07:07) Dranis hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Signed off).
(22:07:12) Estralis: This chat is about the big topic; the big update: Its conduct, its goals and also, the obstacles.
(22:07:25) Dranis [~kvirc@p4FD69FFC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] hat den Raum betreten.
(22:07:50) Tialdin [~illaspiel@p54BB223F.dip.t-dialin.net] hat den Raum betreten.
(22:08:04) Guest8576 [~illaplaye@207.216.47.153] hat den Raum betreten.
(22:08:17) Estralis: Individual technical aspects ("What about bug XYZ, what do you do to improve the <insert random thing here>") shouldn't be the big topic here.
(22:08:46) Estralis: This chat is also an opportunity for the community managers to moderate between developers and community.
(22:08:54) Merung1 [~Jan@p5B3275EE.dip.t-dialin.net] hat den Raum betreten.
(22:10:05) Gast8549 [~illaspiel@dslb-092-075-023-142.pools.arcor-ip.net] hat den Raum betreten.
(22:10:07) Estralis: Are there any questions so far?
(22:10:21) Skamato: Estralis make you introduction.
(22:10:37) Skamato: For this time is the channel moderate and only people with voice can speak
(22:10:48) Skamato: if you over with it, all can speak :)
(22:10:52) Skamato: give me a sign
(22:10:54) Estralis: Ah, silence... :-)
(22:11:05) Estralis: *sign*
(22:11:25) Modus (-m ) von Skamato
(22:11:33) Skamato: Its free for all :)
(22:11:35) ***Retlak gasps for air
(22:11:39) Dranis: Hm?
(22:11:43) Dranis: Was war das?
(22:11:46) Dranis: :D
(22:11:46) Merung hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout).
(22:11:47) Guest8576: Testing testing
(22:11:55) Merung1 heißt jetzt Merung
(22:12:00) Dronrul: Yes, you can all talk now.
(22:12:08) Qeewee: so thats why I couldnt say afk...
(22:12:10) Qeewee: well.. AFK
(22:12:19) Skamato: Who have the first question for the staff?
(22:12:25) Rakust: How many books would i have to write to get unbanned from the forums?
(22:12:37) Merung: test
(22:12:58) Retlak: Erm.. i have a question.. not sure if it is a good or bad one though
(22:13:01) Modus (+o Gast8549) von Q
(22:13:11) Sssari [~illaplaye@pool-71-104-178-24.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] hat den Raum betreten.
(22:13:17) Gast8549 heißt jetzt Vitoria
(22:13:36) Sssari: hey guys....hey...like...hey...
(22:13:38) Sssari: listen...
(22:13:42) Sssari: just...listen
(22:13:44) Sssari: for one sec
(22:13:45) Dranis: Alloa Vitoria und Saaari
(22:13:46) Sssari: release
(22:13:50) Sssari: the VBU
(22:13:53) Sssari: just
(22:13:53) Sssari: do it
(22:14:09) Skamato: Ok
(22:14:11) Crosis: to us only
(22:14:18) Skamato: Rakust please talk about this with a GM
(22:14:19) Crosis: f those other guys
(22:14:29) Skamato: Retlak what is you question?
(22:14:39) twoAndAHalfArd heißt jetzt TheBigBangArd
(22:15:10) Retlak: Okay since there are no other serious questions - What obstacles are you currently facing with the VBU development?
(22:15:18) Estralis: Good question!
(22:15:34) Estralis: Maybe vilarion or moorfox want to answer this?
(22:15:37) Djironnyma: uh i dont understand this question :D
(22:15:58) moorfox: ah
(22:15:59) moorfox: okay
(22:16:04) moorfox: i will answer that:
(22:16:11) Estralis: Welche Hindernisse bei der Entwicklung des VBUs es gibt ist die Frage.
(22:16:26) moorfox: the main obstacle why the vbu is not out yet is the client, which needed to be recoded nearly from scratch
(22:16:42) Crosis: ok what can i do? im good at photoshop, could learn codes, and um i could learn 3dmax quickly
(22:17:16) moorfox: so, basically, there is a lot of work, a lot was already done but the whole GUI needs to be coded now, that is: how does the inventory look like and how does it act, what about talking, the talk-log, menus, ...
(22:17:33) moorfox: everything else is almost in a releasable state
(22:17:50) moorfox: or can be made releasable within, say, a few weeks
(22:17:56) Modus (+v Merung) von Skamato
(22:18:00) Nalzaxx: Maybe we should start with what the Devs goals actually are with the VBU?
(22:18:04) Modus (+v Sssari) von Skamato
(22:18:13) Retlak: Thank you Martin
(22:18:37) Nalzaxx: To give everyone some context at least.
(22:18:43) moorfox: okay, i will just answer Nalzaxx question too
(22:19:04) moorfox: our main goal is to keep more of the players that we attrackt
(22:19:23) moorfox: i don't know recent statistics, but i assume that on a daily basis, we gain between 5 and 20 players
(22:19:32) moorfox: that makes about 10 in average, i'd say
(22:19:36) moorfox: about 300 per month
(22:19:46) moorfox: of them, only 1 or maybe 2 stay for more than some days
(22:20:10) Modus (+v Banduk) von Skamato
(22:20:15) Modus (+v Crosis) von Skamato
(22:20:18) moorfox: this is really not a lot and we think that the game can only move forward if we have more players, which meansthat we are able to hold more than those that stay
(22:20:35) Modus (+v Dranis) von Skamato
(22:20:38) Dronrul: Happy Birthday Rakust.
(22:20:39) Modus (+v Guest8576) von Skamato
(22:20:41) moorfox: so, we had to find out the reasons why they leave so quickly
(22:20:49) Rakust: Thanks, Dronrul
(22:20:51) moorfox: part of it is: complex controls
(22:21:15) moorfox: another part is: people don't know what they should do, they log in, meet noone, don't know what they CAN do and what they are supposed to do
(22:21:17) joxia: Ohhh, Happy birthday
(22:21:18) moorfox: log out and never return
(22:21:21) moorfox: yeah
(22:21:35) moorfox: that's the official happy birthday chat
(22:21:37) Modus (+v TheBigBangArd) von Skamato
(22:21:45) moorfox: another reason might be bad graphics
(22:21:57) Tialdin: yes
(22:22:00) moorfox: especially that everyone "looks the same", that's why we implemented paperdolling
(22:22:10) moorfox: amongst other things, of course
(22:22:31) Retlak: Nice. okay.
(22:22:31) moorfox: but judging from our experience, these seem to be our main problems and these are adressed with the VBU
(22:22:36) Nalzaxx: Shouldn't some thought be given to retaining experienced players too?
(22:22:38) moorfox: done with my answer
(22:22:47) Skamato: ok
(22:22:49) moorfox: okay
(22:22:51) Skamato: Tialdin next
(22:22:53) moorfox: i will extend my asnwer then
(22:22:59) moorfox: to Nalzaxx question
(22:23:01) Skamato: ok
(22:23:03) Skamato: :P
(22:23:07) Modus (+v joxia) von Skamato
(22:23:10) Modus (+v Lia-) von Skamato
(22:23:12) Dranis: Was wurde mit mir gemacht?^^
(22:23:17) moorfox: there are not really a lot of them, but of course
(22:23:26) Sssari: nope.avi
(22:23:35) Tialdin: i ve spoken with friends and asked them to join illarion, one said: to bad grafic: one said: to low skillgain
(22:23:46) Modus (+v Nalzaxx) von Skamato
(22:23:51) moorfox: however, keeping up illarion only with the current players is not our aim and would probably lead to the situation where the complete technical staff leaves, meaning basically that illarion's dead because noone can keep up the server then
(22:23:53) moorfox: done
(22:23:54) Modus (+v Qeewee) von Skamato
(22:23:59) Modus (+v Rakust) von Skamato
(22:24:09) Skamato: [22:23:39] <Tialdin> i ve spoken with friends and asked them to join illarion, one said: to bad grafic: one said: to low skillgain
(22:24:23) Estralis: I'd like to comment on that.
(22:24:44) RayJ: Excesive lag has always been a problem for me. maybe because i live halfway across the globe. Will the VBU make this worse?
(22:25:09) Estralis: Bad graphics; as moorfox explained, we'll have fully working paperdolling and many other graphial innovations. But Illarion will remain 2D...
(22:25:17) Skamato: I think this is one part of the old Illarion, but we talk here about the new Illarion and we are not WOW or some other game @Tialdin (my opinion)
(22:25:28) Modus (+v RayJ) von Skamato
(22:25:32) Modus (+v Respen) von Skamato
(22:25:35) Modus (+v Retlak) von Skamato
(22:25:40) Modus (+v Tialdin) von Skamato
(22:25:48) Modus (+m ) von Skamato
(22:26:11) Estralis: On the skillgain; we'll release a totally reworked skilling system. Skillgain will not be "3x faster" or something but will be much more fair and balanced.
(22:26:48) joxia: There are more than a few I know of that say they wil;l not play until VBU done...Vbu has been a reason that many left
(22:27:13) Tialdin: i have a great problem with some working processes, for example mining, the mine rocks dwstroying so fast, that we can only have ONE Char per Mine and cant work together. Its really BORING to do all alone and must leave the places because someone other is there right now. So Illarion became a game for lonesoem players.
(22:27:14) Estralis: So, mindless jackhammer clicking will not be necessary anymore and, that much I can promise, you don't have to adapt your style of playing to the skill system but the skill system will adapt to YOUR style of playing.
(22:27:17) Estralis: (that's it)
(22:27:59) Guest3397 [~illaplaye@74.2.250.210] hat den Raum betreten.
(22:28:16) Retlak: Thanks for your answers so far
(22:29:21) Skamato: Good some new Question?
(22:29:25) Nalzaxx: I have another.
(22:29:36) Tialdin: as i started Illarion a lot of cars where on the same screen and mined. because the rocks dont disappeared. That was funny and sociable
(22:29:36) Skamato: ;)
(22:30:03) Estralis: Tialdin: While I see the problem and totally agree, this is a very specific issue, isn't it...
(22:30:25) RayJ: About the lag, Will it be worse with the VBU? It is the reason i log off most times.
(22:30:38) Tialdin: not so specifik you think, its a probem on ALL working processes to get raw materials
(22:30:59) Dranis: Boah heut ist soviel Englisch gerede mein Kopf crashed
(22:32:14) Skamato: Estralis or someone did you want say something more to Tialdin?
(22:32:24) Tialdin: the fun on playing is doing things together, not alone, alone i can play other games lokal on my pc therefor i don t need a MMRPG
(22:32:32) Estralis: All I can say is that all gathering processes are being worked on.
(22:32:45) Skamato: Good
(22:32:47) joxia hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout).
(22:32:58) Estralis: I don't know the details there, sorry
(22:33:10) Skamato: Tialdin I think we must wait, or did you want say something else about this?
(22:33:14) moorfox: what is the actual question?
(22:33:21) Estralis: RayJ: If the lag is that unbearable, you should check your internet connection...
(22:33:25) Skamato: [22:30:28] <+RayJ> About the lag, Will it be worse with the VBU? It is the reason i log off most times.
(22:33:30) moorfox: ah, about lag
(22:33:41) Djironnyma hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Read error: Operation timed out).
(22:33:41) moorfox: well, we have made some improvements, however there are tons of sources for lag
(22:33:53) moorfox: in principle, illarion won't need more bandwith than the old illarion
(22:34:04) Rakust: Upgrade your 56k modem if you're getting lag on Illa.
(22:34:07) moorfox: there are more graphics, however that does only affect the initial download
(22:34:43) moorfox: the lag we can influence has to do with the number of players being logged on at the same time and yes, there has been improvements, however we are not really able to test that
(22:34:53) moorfox: as for your internet connection, we have no influence on that
(22:34:56) moorfox: done
(22:35:02) RayJ: Thanks
(22:35:06) Skamato: good
(22:35:10) Skamato: Nalzaxx
(22:35:17) Skamato: you would ask something...
(22:35:39) Nalzaxx: Why does development of the VBU necessitate a complete stop in development of the current game?
(22:35:50) moorfox: i will answer that
(22:35:56) moorfox: the answer is rather simple:
(22:36:16) moorfox: developing on two distinct projects -- and these ARE two distinct projects -- is really complex
(22:36:31) moorfox: because every bug that we remove in either of both would also have to be removed on the other one
(22:37:07) moorfox: therefore we decided on a complete development stop as we simply don't have enough people for the VBU, so splitting even those would mean that the VBU will not take 2+ years but forever
(22:37:32) moorfox: i can go into details as to why they are distinct
(22:37:36) moorfox: just to mention:
(22:37:39) Estralis: One should add that many aspects cannot be released as incremental updates, such as the client.
(22:38:01) moorfox: we changed the scripts drastically by using modules now, we changed the client completely, we changed the server etc.
(22:38:06) moorfox: yes
(22:38:30) moorfox: so, removing bug A on script 1 means something completely different than removing the same bug from the RS
(22:38:34) Retlak: So you're saying your own is non-transferable to the old client
(22:38:52) moorfox: what do you mean by "your own"?
(22:38:59) Retlak: sorry, your work*
(22:39:02) moorfox: ah
(22:39:06) moorfox: right
(22:39:12) moorfox: it is, but it's a lot of additional effort
(22:39:29) Retlak: Understandable, thanks
(22:39:35) Nitram: the client, even the new one was developed from the one you are currently using.
(22:39:51) Nitram: But during the development is was in states where is was absolutely unusable for players
(22:40:18) Nitram: talking about the inability to speak and such funny things
(22:40:45) Nalzaxx: What about, for instance, restoring missing maps?
(22:40:47) Estralis: I'd like to add that we try to fix all reported bugs and inbalances that are reported. Even if you don't see a fix on the game server, the bugs aren't forgotten or ignored.
(22:40:48) moorfox: or move items ;)
(22:41:16) Modus (+v Guest3397) von Skamato
(22:42:01) Nitram: not sure about the maps... but the maps for the testserver havea different internal format now. Not sure if the gameserver could handle these maps
(22:42:11) Nitram: and I rather not try
(22:42:15) Retlak: Ah right
(22:42:33) Nitram: having a few maps is better then having no maps ;)
(22:43:20) Nalzaxx: I think a lot of people are upset by the fact that we are loosing maps since the VBU started.
(22:44:08) RayJ: The loss of Silverbrand was Huge
(22:44:21) Tialdin: ... no comment ...
(22:44:30) Nalzaxx: And the policy towards developing solely for the VBU has meant there is no movement to rectify this.
(22:45:25) Estralis: As far as I know there were attempts... But the maps are, bluntly spoken, fucked up.
(22:45:32) Estralis: Maybe someone else knows more?
(22:46:06) Dronrul: Well, vilaron tried a while ago together with lennier to figure out what the bug is, but we couldn't fix that problem
(22:46:23) Dronrul: So we left the map at the current state and are waiting for the release of the vbu, which will fix this map bugs of course
(22:46:32) Retlak: We did wonder why there was no talking about it for ages, thanks for clarifying. Someone remove Lenniers map editor ;) just kidding.
(22:46:32) Dronrul: (Because this maps work on the TS ;) )
(22:48:49) Dronrul: More questions about maps?
(22:49:16) Retlak: Yeah.
(22:49:58) Retlak: You made the map for the VBU i heard? what would you rate it in terms of creativity and interaction?
(22:50:03) Retlak: or is this too secret
(22:50:40) moorfox: what do you mean by "interaction"?
(22:51:16) Retlak: Like, are there many blank fields like the current map, or do they have something in like dungeons or npcs or towns etc
(22:51:50) Estralis: Ah, NPCs... the big myth... ;-)
(22:52:22) Dronrul: Well, i would say the updated map is far more interesting than the current one ;)
(22:52:26) Djironnyma [~CMDjironn@p5B16AC80.dip.t-dialin.net] hat den Raum betreten.
(22:52:26) Modus (+o Djironnyma) von Q
(22:52:34) Dronrul: And it has nearly no 'blank fields'
(22:52:42) Estralis: Indeed. I'd like to comment on NPCs.
(22:52:43) Dronrul: You can find everythere some nice stuff
(22:52:46) Dronrul: Go on.
(22:52:48) Retlak: Nice.
(22:53:11) moorfox: as for interaction, we are working on that
(22:53:22) moorfox: like, i don't know, trap doors, locked doors, stuff like that
(22:53:25) Estralis: There'll be, of course, dozens of new NPCs (but you'll also meet good old Sam, Borgate and Eliza, of course ;-) ). 
(22:53:51) Retlak: Oh nice.. the expensive guys ;)
(22:54:10) Estralis: But the NPCs are just a "tool", not something we added because... we wanted to add them.
(22:55:00) Retlak: ok
(22:55:11) Estralis: The work on NPCs, btw, has absolutely no influence or impact on the overall development time.
(22:55:38) Retlak: May I be greedy and ask another question, unless anyone else wants to step in
(22:55:40) Estralis: martin, Nitram, vilarion, none of them did NPCs.
(22:55:50) Guest8576: I also want to comment on maps
(22:56:08) Retlak: ok
(22:56:21) Crosis: could i make an NPC that only speaks in riddles and rhymes?
(22:56:26) Guest3397: As a player who has spent countless hours IG when noone else is playing I can relate to the wanting of  static quests and the additional NPC's
(22:56:47) Skamato: on question step by step
(22:56:58) Guest8576: There may be of course a larger wilderness due to a large map, but there may be more exotic landmarks and stuff
(22:57:00) Skamato: *one
(22:57:10) Nomos hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: Today is a good day to chat.).
(22:57:11) Guest8576: Also dungeons may have traps and puzzles, and stuff that requries group effort to solve
(22:57:50) Guest8576: Mmm that's it for now
(22:57:57) moorfox: dyluck?
(22:58:17) RayJ: Martin said one reason people leave is complicated controls. Will mouse walk be in the VBU?
(22:58:21) Guest8576: Did my text get through?
(22:58:41) moorfox: rayj: yes
(22:58:44) Guest3397: yes
(22:58:51) RayJ: Great, thanks
(22:58:54) moorfox: Guest8576: yes
(22:59:07) Skamato: good, next question
(22:59:12) Tialdin: ye a i agrre grouo effort is a problem, and another great problem is, you need a mage in the group everytime or you die. 
(22:59:16) Skamato: Dranis ask what is about a charwipe or a skillwipe or itemwipe...
(22:59:16) Retlak: Ah ah ah ah ooh
(22:59:29) Estralis: Not just mouse walk, but you'll also have to say bye bye to "shift ctrl alt click"
(22:59:50) Guest8576 heißt jetzt Dyluck
(22:59:50) Tialdin: #me hold out a great Schield ::: NO WIPES
(23:00:32) Dyluck: Ok well, guess my name wasnt' showing up before
(23:00:52) moorfox: as for wipes:
(23:00:59) moorfox: yeah, but we all have guessed your name
(23:01:04) moorfox: back to wipes:
(23:01:06) Crosis: wipe it all! for this guy
(23:01:29) moorfox: due to a lot of changes of values and mechanisms and the overal economic system, it will be inevitable to have certain kinds of wipes, of course
(23:01:41) Guest3397: No, give all to me and tell him it was wiped!
(23:01:47) Crosis: haha
(23:01:55) moorfox: yeah, that's a good idea indeed ;)
(23:02:04) moorfox: the same will hold for skills, i suppose
(23:02:13) moorfox: but we haven't really discussed that much yet
(23:02:23) moorfox: we were more focussed on more technical things
(23:02:26) Estralis: I should add something here: There'll be of course be no charwipe.
(23:02:31) moorfox: and it will seem "naturally" in the end
(23:02:36) Estralis: As in: "all chars get deleted"
(23:02:44) moorfox: just by accident
(23:02:52) Skamato: Can you give a example for a part of wipe, or is this too secret?
(23:03:02) moorfox: sure:
(23:03:10) moorfox: some items will be wiped generally and totally
(23:03:12) Kadiya1 [~Kadiya@hnvr-4dbb899b.pool.mediaWays.net] hat den Raum betreten.
(23:03:12) Modus (+o Kadiya1) von Q
(23:03:14) moorfox: others will stay
(23:03:18) Crosis hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: Page closed).
(23:03:19) moorfox: and some more will be capped maybe
(23:03:26) Estralis: as moorfox pointed out, certain items will be removed from the game. Not because we're mean but because the items will either vanish or change totally
(23:03:26) Kadiya hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout).
(23:03:28) moorfox: so that you can have 10 apples at maximum
(23:04:05) Guest3397: you lost me with the apples
(23:04:48) moorfox: you can have bananas instead
(23:05:31) TheBigBangArd heißt jetzt Ardian
(23:06:08) Estralis: On the skills maybe: As I said before, the skill system will change. So, your skills could change, too. But this won't be some kind of wipe where everyone starts at 0 skill.
(23:06:24) Djironnyma: noooo appels :(
(23:06:42) Djironnyma: *le
(23:07:29) Estralis: So, in conclusion: No, no 2nd charwipe but some things will change, as usual ;-). But for a better good.
(23:07:35) Sssari hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: Today is a good day to chat.).
(23:07:56) moorfox: any questions left?
(23:08:08) Rakust hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: Today is a good day to chat.).
(23:08:30) Dronrul: Seems like a "no" since everyone is leaving :D
(23:08:41) Djironnyma: whats about ig? will there be some quest or explanation why so many things had change from one day to the other?
(23:09:19) Skamato: Good Question :)
(23:10:07) RayJ: Is newbie island being retained?
(23:10:13) Guest3397: I thought thats why your building the ship
(23:10:14) Dronrul: Yes, there will be a quest.
(23:10:27) Dronrul: or maybe more than one
(23:10:45) Estralis: I think this is my field - of course, there'll be ingame reasons for many changes. But don't expect an ingame reason for paperdolling or the changed skill system ;-)
(23:11:11) moorfox: as for newbie island: there will be something different
(23:11:17) Djironnyma: i build the ship cause i can :D
(23:11:18) Dyluck: Tailors made a breakthrough in sewing technique ;)
(23:11:23) Estralis: In any case, you'll have more GM activity when the development is done.
(23:11:30) Dronrul: It's called 'noobia' btw, not newbie island :P
(23:11:56) RayJ: Long time since i been there
(23:13:42) Arty [~Arty@212095007162.public.telering.at] hat den Raum betreten.
(23:14:04) moorfox: anyway
(23:14:15) Retlak hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout).
(23:14:19) moorfox: any more questions unanswered?
(23:14:27) Respen: What kind of contributions to the development are required to release the VBU by the end of October (it was said to be very close to being done)?
(23:14:34) RayJ: Thanks for your time :)
(23:15:14) vilarion: we mostly need java developers
(23:15:16) Estralis: Respen: Java coding of the client
(23:16:03) Respen: Mainly just the client GUI then?
(23:16:29) moorfox: yes
(23:16:46) moorfox: give us 2 good java coders and the VBU will be released in october
(23:17:45) Modus (+v Arty) von Skamato
(23:18:53) Dronrul: More questions?
(23:20:09) Estralis: Doesn't seem to be the case.
(23:20:27) Tialdin: Darf ich was zum Kampfsystem fragen? May i ask something to the fighting system? 
(23:20:39) Dronrul: Yes.
(23:20:58) moorfox: klar
(23:20:59) Skamato: you can
(23:21:41) Tialdin: i heard that fights going faster, i hope that they are not too fast, i hate games where i must make sport on the keybord or with the mouse 
(23:22:21) RayJ: me too, especially with lag
(23:23:35) moorfox: uhm, basically you "attack" someone, i don't know where the sports-part should start
(23:23:36) Guest3397: I demand a safeguard for being clouded due to lag or freezing up!
(23:23:49) Guest3397: ;) just kidding
(23:24:15) Tialdin: it starts if you are faster dead, as you can click on a healing potion
(23:25:16) Respen: I think the concern relates to how much of a part "twitch" reflexes play a part in combat.
(23:25:27) Tialdin: now we have this problem with magical gifted monsters, the damage is to high an i am faster dead than i cn use a potion or run away. I don t like it
(23:26:18) Guest3397: Its the short legs
(23:26:25) RayJ: :)
(23:26:36) Guest3397: They get tangled in the beard'
(23:26:41) moorfox: then you probably should stay out of their reach
(23:26:52) moorfox: to be honest, i don't know if fights are faster than earlier
(23:27:00) moorfox: it depends on a lot of factors
(23:27:03) Estralis: Well - to straighten this: Fighting will basically(!) remain the way it is. You chose a target and attack automatically. 
(23:27:34) Estralis: Of course, a strong monster will kill you as you'll kill a weak monster. That won't change, actually.
(23:28:17) Retlak [~illaplaye@host86-161-196-204.range86-161.btcentralplus.com] hat den Raum betreten.
(23:28:19) Tialdin: Mir geht es um die Geschwindigkeit, ich hoffe halt es wird nicht zu hektisch. 
(23:28:26) Nalzaxx: I like the twitch aspects of illa conflict. Makes things more interesting.
(23:28:57) Tialdin: was ist "twitch"
(23:29:10) moorfox: anyway
(23:29:13) moorfox: good night
(23:29:16) Guest3397: TY, was going to ask the same thing
(23:29:21) moorfox hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org).
(23:30:32) Estralis: OK, to sum up, fighting will change but the degree of player-client interaction during fighting won't change that much. Does that cover the question?
David Turner
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:32 am

Re: A VBU Question.

Post by David Turner »

Thank you so much. That actually helps a lot.
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: A VBU Question.

Post by Estralis Seborian »

David Turner
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:32 am

Re: A VBU Question.

Post by David Turner »

Yep, it had a lot of good information but still had some holes on some important things which is why I asked. If any other questions do come up than I will be sure to ask. For now, all I can do is thank you for what you have given and see what else becomes important.
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Vilarion
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Re: A VBU Question.

Post by Vilarion »

Tech Talk about death consequences:

Code: Select all

20:02 < Estralis> Good evening and guten Abend everyone.
20:02 < Merung> :D
20:03 < Estralis> As some might have read, an "OpenSource TechTalk" is scheduled for... now.,
20:04 < Estralis> This is a premiere, I hope that this session will be fruitful.
20:05 < Estralis> The topic is: Death consequences. I overheard that many players aren't that happy with the death consequences of Illarion (skill loss, item drop).
20:05 < Estralis> Illarion is open source, so everyone can take a look at the code and we can work on suggestions how to improve it.
20:06 < Estralis> You can find the source code here: https://github.com/vilarion/Illarion-Server
20:06 < Estralis> Don't be afraid, the code won't bite and there are some comments in it
20:08 < Estralis> Take a look at the functions "ReduceSkills" in Character.cpp and "PlayerDeath" in Player.cpp if you want - but I think it is best to start with the situation as it is. So, first question is: What is so bad about current death consequences if you consider the balance between challenges, risks and reward?
20:09 < Nalzaxx> The risk is far too great.
20:09 < Nalzaxx> And often is completely unlinked with the challenge and reward.
20:10 < Estralis> The risk... to die or to lose stuff?
20:10 -!- Qeewee [~illaplaye@27.79-161-106.customer.lyse.net] has joined #illarion
20:11 < Nalzaxx> To loose stuff, death should obviously be kept as a signal of a great enough failure
20:11 < Estralis> What about skills?
20:12 < Nalzaxx> The problem with loosing skills is that the effort involved in aquiring/regaining them is too great
20:12 < Merung> In the higer levels, one might add
20:12 -!- SultryVixin [~illaplaye@ip72-200-138-32.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #illarion
20:12 -!- SultryVixin [~illaplaye@ip72-200-138-32.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Today is a good day to chat.]
20:12 < Estralis> OK but that implies that skillgain is too slow, not that the skill loss upon death is too high, right?
20:13 < Qeewee> Skillgain should be slow so that people don't get too powerful too fast?
20:13 < Nalzaxx> I don't really think you can make that distinction. Obviously when skill gain was easier, death wasn't so terrible, but that doesn't make skill loss on death right either
20:13 < Estralis> OK
20:13 < Estralis> So, did anyone take a look at the code so far?
20:14  * Retlak opens the code
20:14 < Qeewee> *awkward silence* :P
20:14 < Estralis> (Skillgain is a totally different issue, not to be adressed here ;-) )
20:14 < Qeewee> Yeah but it was related to the skill loss, skill loss by death should be changed not skill gain as skill gain should remain slow :P
20:15 < Estralis> OK, so one extreme solution would be to remove all consequences of death. No skill loss, no item drop. Would that be... the right direction?
20:15 < Retlak> It's going in the right direction
20:16 < Retlak> can I just address one point here
20:16 < Estralis> You can address as many as you want
20:16 < Qeewee> Maybe there should be another kind of consequence instead, have the time needed to regain health etc last longer or something
20:17 < Retlak> The penalties at the moment can be too extreme for innocent deaths also.. for example
20:17 < Retlak> players who have had enough and PK, those poor innocents.. oh, and often clients can freeze or lag up..
20:17 < Estralis> OK
20:17 < Retlak> That can become frustrating to dish out the entire penalty, even though we cannot distinguise between the two
20:18 -!- Orioli [webchat@68.235.152.68] has joined #illarion
20:18 < Nalzaxx> The Matt speaks true.
20:19 < Estralis> Ahm, the problem is clear I guess.
20:19 < Estralis> Death penalties as they are = bad
20:19 < Estralis> Now we should make things better.
20:20 < Retlak> there should be some sort of penalty i beleive, however it should not involve destroying hard work
20:20  * Qeewee nods
20:20 < Nalzaxx> I concurr.
20:20 < Retlak> It should in fact promote having to do something to regain a normal status
20:20 < Estralis> OK, so the temporary health/attribute penalty is commonly accepted?
20:20 < Qeewee> Longer time to regain health could be one of them, that's one of the fair penalties there are IMO
20:21 < Retlak> the health and attribute temporary loss is good
20:21 < Nalzaxx> The temp health/attribute penalty is fine yes.
20:21 < Qeewee> Yep, could make that last longer!
20:21 < Nalzaxx> Is there a need?
20:21 < Qeewee> Force people to RP *grin*
20:21 < Nalzaxx> Or to afk.
20:21 < Retlak> hm.. that too is a problem, people can afk
20:21 < Qeewee> Yeah that hit me the moment I said it
20:21 <@vilarion> what about not losing any items and skills, but reducing item quality a bit?
20:22 < Nalzaxx> Isn't that already implemented?
20:22 < Retlak> that might be fine too actually.. it can promote needing crafter companions if you mess up in a battle, but won't leave you losing your extremely rare item on the ground ;)
20:22 < Qeewee> heh, that sucks for the people who spend money on potions so that their gemmed blades and armor and rings etc dont go bad
20:23 < Nalzaxx> What about just dropping certain items, like the bag?
20:23 -!- Gast6918 [~illaspiel@p508F24EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #illarion
20:23 < Retlak> so you only risk losing a bag full of potions, and/or any loot you have picked up since your time fighting?
20:24 < Nalzaxx> Exactly
20:24 < Retlak> but you keep your hard earned things that you wear
20:24 < Retlak> I agree with something like that personally
20:24 < Estralis> OK, the temporary health and attribute penalty I guess we can keep "like it is" - the time was changed already on the testserver, it is calculated slightly different than before.
20:24 -!- Gast6918 is now known as Killah_D00D_XXD
20:24 < Retlak> OK
20:24 < Killah_D00D_XXD> ...Evening !
20:25 -!- Killah_D00D_XXD [~illaspiel@p508F24EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Today is a good day to chat.]
20:25 < Estralis> OK, if you would have taken a look at the code, you'd knew that the state (testserver) is currently like this: If you die, you lose your bag, everything in the belt plus two items at random.
20:26 -!- illa_Damien [~illaspiel@p508F24EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #illarion
20:26 < Estralis> IM(H)O: That's way too much.
20:26 < Retlak> two items at random.. sounds like the worst part of that script
20:26 < Retlak> possibly even the belt
20:26 < Estralis> So, "just" dropping the bag is an acceptable tweak?
20:26 < Estralis> What if the player has no bag?
20:27 < Nalzaxx> Then thats good thinking on their part.
20:27 < nathi> normaly you loose all if you "die"
20:27 < illa_Damien> Reduce that to stackable items (random number per stack)
20:27 < Retlak> then give him a bag and make him drop it
20:27 < Retlak> haha
20:27 < Retlak> to be honest
20:27 < Estralis> Is there ANYONE who does PvP for the loot btw?
20:27 < Qeewee> On the topic of skill loss when you die: Would it be possible to implement it so you don't lose levels, but you lose some or all of the progress you have gained onto the gain of a new level?
20:28 < Retlak> not PVP for loot.. i think almost everyone ig fights each other friendly
20:28 < Estralis> how lame
20:28 < Estralis> :-P
20:28 < Nalzaxx> the risk is too great for the loot
20:28 < Retlak> yeah, you have a friendly community here
20:28 < nathi> what means PvP, sorry 
20:28 < Merung> And they still flame each other..
20:28 < Estralis> OK, so dropped items are usually lost or recovered, but do not change the owner?
20:28 < Retlak> player vs player
20:28 < illa_Damien> About the loot part : "Take their Donkey if they die" sounds mean enough, does it not ;)
20:29 < nathi> ah
20:29 < Orioli> Can i point out that you do not die ?
20:29 -!- Djironnyma [~CMDjironn@p5B16A55C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #illarion
20:29 -!- mode/#illarion [+o Djironnyma] by Q
20:29 < Merung> What, Orioli?
20:29 < Retlak> .. i think in this topic death = clouding
20:29 < Nalzaxx> yes
20:29 < Estralis> Getting pwned, yes
20:29 <@Djironnyma> moin
20:29 < Nalzaxx> hello dji
20:29 < Orioli> right so analgy to death issues is out of place
20:30 < Retlak> Character dies - only losing the bag. if he did not take a bag in the first place, then he can't even collect loot so he loses out in that sense anyway
20:30 < Orioli> *facepalm*
20:30 < Estralis> Hmm, what is the benefit of lost loot?
20:30 < Estralis> Or lost items at all?
20:30 < Estralis> Benefit for the game as a whole?
20:31 < Estralis> I'm asking because if nobody does PvP for loot...
20:31 < Estralis> And this is nothing I'd support btw...
20:31 < Estralis> Why drop items then? Just to punish the player?
20:32 < Orioli> exactly Estralis
20:32 < Nalzaxx> People would PvP for loot if it wasnt so dangerous
20:32 < Orioli> why drop?
20:32 < Qeewee> Well some wouldn't care about ghosting if there was no penalty.. They'd go about sacrificing themselves and act all superheroish? :3
20:32 < Orioli> there is a penalty
20:32 < Orioli> the skill loss
20:32 < Orioli> the healing time
20:33 < Retlak> Alright
20:33 < Orioli> If you must drop then drop a bag
20:33 < Retlak> the temporary statuses are great, we agree
20:33 < Orioli> Your clothes dont need torn off of you
20:33 < Nalzaxx> If anything, it would stop people going to battle with their entire depots on their back
20:34 < Nalzaxx> If you loose your bag on death, people wouldnt bring one
20:34 -!- Ardian [~Mr.X@2.210.139.180] has quit [Quit:  Bye]
20:34 < Qeewee> I do find it hilarious when people lose their pants after a ghosting and go about RPing it.. 
20:34 < Orioli> *chuckles*
20:34 < Qeewee> Makes you wonder how the pants got off 
20:35 -!- Ardian [~Mr.X@p57945788.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #illarion
20:35 < Estralis> Right
20:35 < Estralis> That is an issue.
20:35 < Estralis> Paperdolling...
20:35 < Estralis> Naked chars and stuff
20:35 < Qeewee> *me burns the man alive* *mans pants drops*
20:35 < illa_Damien> No Pant-Dropping for Minors ! 
20:35 < Retlak> What are your thoughts, Estralis?
20:36 < Estralis> OK, so dropping items is commonly considered... bad?
20:36 < illa_Damien> not bad. EVIL.
20:36 < Qeewee> hehe
20:36 < Retlak> pretty much
20:36 <@vilarion> if it gets too hot you will take off some clothes, sounds perfectly logically for me!
20:36 < Qeewee> haha
20:37 <@Djironnyma> i have a sauna :D
20:37 <@Djironnyma> !
20:37 < illa_Damien> "You die. You loose your pants. Server: 1, Player: 0. PWNED !
20:37 < Retlak> no one has a nice day when they lose their gemmed up sword or armour, or even that really expensive shiny metal helmet that you took forever finding a smith who can make it
20:37 < Estralis> OK
20:38 < illa_Damien> too hot = hell. 90% of illarion characters are evil. So 90% of illarion characters loose their pants ?
20:38 < Orioli> or an ice bird or a gemed ring they find hard to replace.
20:38 < Retlak> The only reason i suggested losing a bag before was because it stops you storing your depot permanently in your bag risk free
20:38 < Retlak> but this isn't a serious issue
20:38 < Orioli> and it makes being hunted for loot in a pvp manner more of an issue
20:40 < Merung> We all know the problem: many chars won't fear death if the death wasn't painful for the player. So we either make the player scared to die and accept that they will be pissed from time to time or  we live with the fact that every second char will be big mothed and fearless ;)
20:40 < Merung> What's the smaller evil?
20:40 < Orioli> they are anyway
20:40 < Qeewee> We're trying to find something in between those two aren't we?
20:41 < Estralis> Or something different ;-)
20:41 < Retlak> the strong arguement against the loss of hard work on death is the fact that it really does ruin people's day, especially if it for innocent deaths, such as client freeze, game lag, pkers
20:41 < Qeewee> No losing of gemmed stuff etc and skills pissing of the player, yet no fearless people?
20:41 < Retlak> @ Merung
20:41 < illa_Damien> Always compare : Punishment effect / Annoyance effect
20:41 < Retlak> There is more ways to make people not want to die than making them work for 2 weeks to get back what they had
20:41 < Estralis> Personally, I think the penalties for death should be serious ones, but of a temporary type
20:42 < Retlak> Exactly.. temporary hinderance
20:42 < Merung> How long? 2 weeks? ;)
20:42 < Retlak> like half a healthbar for a few days, or no stats for some time.. whatever 
20:42 < Retlak> scatter your limbs across the island and make you look for them in a ghost body
20:42 < Qeewee> LMAO
20:42 < Qeewee> I like that one
20:42 < Qeewee> Scattered limbs
20:42 < Qeewee> :P
20:42 < Merung> Me too, actually..
20:43 < Orioli> *laughs at Retlak*
20:43 < Dronrul> Hi
20:44 < Retlak> It's certainly better than "You have lost 3 weeks of hitting red skeletons, and by the way that gemmed sword that you spent 10 hours looking for is gone, P.S your trousers broke in the process"
20:44 < Orioli> hi Droni
20:44 < Retlak> Hey Dron
20:44 < Qeewee> lmao
20:44 < Qeewee> yeah
20:44 < Qeewee> ''The quest of the scattered limbs'' sounds much better.
20:44 < Qeewee> :3
20:44 < illa_Damien> oO
20:45 < Orioli> I vote for scattered limbs and lost pants with a short term loss of hit points and health
20:45 < Dronrul> Why don't remove the item-drop completly if the enemy is a npc? :o
20:45 < Orioli> perfect solution because it involves humor
20:46 < illa_Damien> *you get killed by: An Angry Ogre. You loose 120 HP. You loose 90% max.Health. You loose your PANTS.
20:46 < Estralis> As I said the temporary loss of attributes and health will remain in the game (with changed cooldown time)
20:46 < Retlak> Well the thing is Dronrul
20:46 < Orioli> *and you limbs are scattered across the island in different depots... go find them*
20:47 < Dronrul> i think the attribute and health is enough if a npc kills you
20:47 < Retlak> if you lost nothing, pvp might get promoted, currently there is none which is a shame. 
20:47 < illa_Damien> hehe
20:47 < Retlak> but if you still lost things in pvp well... that might just make strong pkers go after noob bakers again when no one is looking
20:47 < Retlak> and then run and run and run and log out when big guys come.. oh that happens already too
20:47 < illa_Damien> Get killed a few times while searching your missing limbs in the dragon cave -> We already have a flying head graphic.
20:47 < Dronrul> I don't know if it's possible but how about this:
20:47 < Dronrul> If npc=no item drop
20:47 < Dronrul> If player then -> player 'uses' the killed char -> the killer has a chance of X to loot 2-3 items from the enemy
20:48 < Dronrul> ?
20:48 < Dronrul> would be cool imo
20:48 < Estralis> "Uses the killed char"?
20:48 < Estralis> How
20:48 < Orioli> that encourages pvp against the innocent baker Droni
20:48 < Estralis> Using the ghost?
20:49 <@Djironnyma> like search his body?
20:49 < Dronrul> I don't know if it's possible :P
20:49 < Estralis> That runs away?
20:49 < Dronrul> Yes
20:49 < Orioli> no getting to take items form them
20:49 < illa_Damien> What about : Do not drp items or loose skill if you get killed ONCE. But: While you are Weakened and get killed, loose some skill and loose ALL your loot.
20:49 < Estralis> #w DO NOT LOOT ME PLZ
20:49 < Dronrul> paralyse the ghost for a few seconds?
20:49 < Retlak> using the ghost i assume, catch it if you can
20:49 < Orioli> from*
20:49 <@Djironnyma> maybe "use" the char which was pushed back
20:49 < Retlak> lmao Estralis
20:49 < Dronrul> if killed then 1 min not move able or something like that
20:49 < Retlak> Well
20:49 <@Djironnyma> so the attacker would get items and mostly dont kill the other char?
20:49 < Dronrul> during this time the killer can think about if he wants to loot the enemy or not
20:49 < Retlak> the horrible thing is
20:50 < Retlak> a strong pker comes into town and harasses the workshop guys, never the other warriors
20:50 < Merung> Maybe we place a corpe graphic there? It will disappere after some time or when the char went to teh cross
20:50 < Retlak> wheras
20:50 < Dronrul> This 'system' i propose doesn't change anything on the current pvp
20:50 < Dronrul> If you get killed, you drop something anyway
20:50 < Dronrul> it just adds a thief-feeling
20:50 < Estralis> I think that's not a good idea, sorry.
20:50 < Estralis> Chasing ghosts!?
20:50 < Retlak> lol
20:50 <@Djironnyma> why gosts
20:51 < Dronrul> like i said, you can paralyse him for a few seconds :P
20:51 <@Djironnyma> the  not jet dead char
20:51 < Dronrul> like the thing with 'you stuble back bla bla'
20:51 <@Djironnyma> which is ppushed back/nearly dead
20:51 < Retlak> I think in general...
20:51 <@Djironnyma> maybe it would reduce the PK even
20:51 < Retlak> getting items from players should be rp
20:51 < Retlak> not pking
20:51 < Retlak> because then the innocent has to endure the long temporary penalty
20:52 < Orioli> I agree Retlak
20:52 < Retlak> pkers won't pk if they know they need to rp the item out of the char
20:52 < Orioli> I can rp murder or theft  .. no need to use the engine unless you think its okay to mistreat people
20:52 < Estralis> OK, may I step in - complicated solutions are usually not the best solutions.
20:53 <@Djironnyma> pssst new charpic: http://illarion.org/community/de_charprofile.php?id=3c69e537
20:53 < Estralis> I should note that PvP rewards are another issue.
20:53 < Retlak> ok
20:53 < Estralis> Can we agree on the following: Temp attribute and health loss stays (slightly changed), no item drop?
20:54 < Retlak> agreed
20:54 < illa_Damien> DROP ITEMS when you get killed in WEAKENED sstate.
20:54 < Orioli> I agree
20:54 < Retlak> Nalzaxx agrees too, I am his boss.
20:54 < illa_Damien>  = punishment for those who return from crosses too often ;)
20:54 < Estralis> Damien, this is what I call a complicated solution ;-)
20:55 < Orioli> too complex damien
20:55 < illa_Damien> oO
20:55 < Estralis> That weakened state isn't really... defined for the server
20:55 < Retlak> still risks pkers res killing for the items
20:55 < illa_Damien> Technically, it shouldn't be complicated.
20:55 < Estralis> There is no "weakened" tag
20:55 < Retlak> ok
20:55 < illa_Damien> Chek for the state of maximum hitpoints. If they are reduced = drop items.
20:55 < Retlak> When you die.. you kind of have reduced hitpoints...
20:56 < illa_Damien> Exactly.
20:56 < Retlak> ...then you lose items anyway
20:56 < Retlak> :p
20:56 < Estralis> That's script side, death consequences are server side
20:56 < nathi> nice charpic Dji, I like it more than the old one, but he seems more harmless
20:56 < illa_Damien> but you wonÄ't charge at people anymore when you have reduced health.
20:56 < Estralis> With STR 1...
20:56 < Estralis> ;-)
20:56 < Retlak> if you charge at someone with reduced health, you won't be able to do much anyway
20:56 < Retlak> as Estralis says
20:57 < Orioli> if you want items rp for them if they dont give them up go out and do the work to make or get or buy your own
20:57 <@Djironnyma> nathi: : http://i52.tinypic.com/fx5lee.png
20:57 < illa_Damien> But you can still be annoxying. Which is one reason for the penatly system.
20:57 < Estralis> OK, now we reduced the penalties a lot. But shouldn't there be some sort of ... additional penalty than a small time out?
20:57 < Retlak> Yes
20:57 < Retlak> make them do something annoying
20:57 < Retlak> like visit every altar ig
20:57 < illa_Damien> If yomeone knows he loses alot if he provokes a fight in weakened state, he will stay out of fights. Usually.
20:58 < Nalzaxx> reverse the controls!
20:58 < Orioli> to retrieve body linbs!!
20:58 < Estralis> Erm no thanks
20:58 < illa_Damien> hehe
20:58 < Orioli> cant you randomly hide body parts in depots and make them find them?
20:58 < Nalzaxx> ...
20:58 < illa_Damien> hallucinations. XD
20:58 < Estralis> We could give the items a small malus instead of dropping them as penalty.
20:59 < Estralis> Would that be an idea?
20:59 < nathi> Dji, I increased my valuation with one point ;-)
20:59 < illa_Damien> What would an item malus be ? Quality loss = annoying
20:59 < Orioli> can it be recovered with work Estralis?
20:59 < Orioli> like a potion or polish?
20:59 < Estralis> Quality loss, yes, that is a bad idea!
20:59 < Estralis> How about durability? What you can repair?
20:59 < Retlak> yes!
20:59 < Retlak> seek out your druids or smiths
20:59 < Retlak> to repair
21:00 < Retlak> but quality destroys it forever i think... which would be sad 
21:00 < Estralis> Right.
21:00 < Orioli> yes promote emphasis on economy of the game!
21:00 < Retlak> yes
21:00 < illa_Damien> repair = quality loss too. if i remember right.
21:00 < Estralis> OK
21:00 < Merung> this can be changed
21:00 < Estralis> Then... we remove the quality loss?
21:00 < Retlak> that makes sense
21:01 < Retlak> so we aren't limited to druid potions only
21:01 < Retlak> crafters get the fun of repair their stupid clumsy warriors armours
21:01 < Orioli> a good smith can also repair?
21:01 < Orioli> sounds good to me
21:01 < Orioli> and woodworkers repair wands?
21:02 < Retlak> yeah
21:02 < Retlak> i guess so
21:02 < Orioli> tailors clothes, finesmith rings... he hole in pants beats no pants
21:02 -!- Nalzaxx [~Sam@cpc1-kemp1-0-0-cust751.9-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
21:03 < Merung> How it it possible to be reapired it unimporatnt ofor the question of death. Just that is is possible without quality loose
21:03 < Retlak> I'm sorry?
21:03 < Orioli> they dont die merung
21:03 < Estralis> OK, so a durability loss as penalty is acceptable and might even encourage player interaction?
21:03 < Retlak> yes Estralis
21:03 < Retlak> I beleive so
21:03 < Orioli> lose the death logic
21:03 < illa_Damien> whoah this java applett is messed up 
21:03 < Estralis> The illarion client?
21:03 < Retlak> death = clouding it's just easier to say
21:04 < Estralis> OK
21:04 < illa_Damien> got other stuff to finish anyway, good evening everyone
21:04 < Estralis> Now we can move on I guess. Skill loss.
21:04 < Retlak> Ok Damien take care
21:04 -!- illa_Damien [~illaspiel@p508F24EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Today is a good day to chat.]
21:04 < Orioli> bye
21:04 < Estralis> In almost every game I know, you lose "XP" upon death.
21:04 < Estralis> Does it do any good for Illarion?
21:04 < Retlak> apart from Runescape, the funnest game to die in
21:05 < Estralis> What does the game gain this way?
21:05 < Retlak> with skill loss?
21:05 < Orioli> I once suggested a trip to hellbriar when ding if we lose the drop of items then ported to somewhere far away could make an irritation?
21:05 < Estralis> yes - what is the big benefit?
21:05 < Orioli> dying*
21:05 < Qeewee> As I suggested earlier, perhaps a progress onto next level loss instead of  full level loss could be implemented? So if you have level 60 you can not get below that, but if you have level 60 and 50% you can lose some of the %?  If we're keeping skill loss at all that is
21:06 < Estralis> No death realm for Illarion.
21:06 < Retlak> losing skills has no benefit, it encourages hiding away from player interaction, being annoying and ctrl clicking things for weeks to get 1 level
21:06 < Estralis> Qeewee: I was more referring to the principle, not the actual implementation of skill loss. What is the benefit...?
21:06 < Orioli> I agree retlak
21:06 <@vilarion> what Retlak says
21:06 < Estralis> OK
21:06 < Estralis> So, no skill loss at all?
21:07 < Orioli> no it isnt really logical to lose skill
21:07 < Retlak> None please
21:08 <@vilarion> please, none, yes
21:08 <@Djironnyma> hrm
21:08 <@vilarion> vilarion: go implement that
21:08 <@Djironnyma> i see it different
21:08 <@Djironnyma> but i feel alone with this opinion
21:08 <@Djironnyma> :(
21:08 < Retlak> Aw
21:08 < Orioli> @ Estralis *being in the maze at the dragon cave there are many people who would argue that place to be a death realm* jk
21:09 <@Djironnyma> I believe that players will play their char with even less fair if their will be no real lose ind eath
21:09 <@Djironnyma> *death
21:09 -!- Qeewee [~illaplaye@27.79-161-106.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Quit: Today is a good day to chat.]
21:09 <@Djironnyma> not fair
21:09 <@Djironnyma> fear
21:10 -!- Qeewee [~illaplaye@79.161.106.27] has joined #illarion
21:10 <@Djironnyma> they will be all brave superheros which face anone and anything
21:10 < Retlak> There are better ways to make people fear death, the suggestions so far are temporary reductions, and needing to visit your local crafter or druid to repair the armour you died in ;)
21:10 < Retlak> but at the same time the person who dies isn't left frustrated and angry
21:11 < Qeewee> Yay, more warrior-druids *sarcasm*
21:11 <@Djironnyma> that  is less then it is atm and even now the most players does not rly fear to "get killed"
21:11 < Orioli> crafters can repair too Qee :-)
21:12 < Orioli> we want the player community to fear?
21:12 < Estralis> OK, from a technical point of view, I think the found consensus is a good one and won't take too much time to implement, eh, vilarion?
David Turner
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Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:32 am

Re: A VBU Question.

Post by David Turner »

A million thanks for posting that for me. It really does help out a lot; not only to show how changes are being made to take care of a problem but also to show how the player's opinions and experiences help to shape the game and how much the developers care about how to make it better. There really does seem to be a general consensus about what needs to be changed and the community does seem to be able, for the greater part, to speak on it intelligently and directly. And the developers really do prove to listen and be willing to introduce changes when needed. Thank you again for posting that, it shows a lot of good things.
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Vilarion
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Re: A VBU Question.

Post by Vilarion »

You are welcome. :)
Hopefully we will have more Tech Talks in the future.
David Turner
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:32 am

Re: A VBU Question.

Post by David Turner »

I look forward to being there if I can. The chat client keeps not working for me but I think it may be a problem on my end so I have been trying to work out what it is.
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Vilarion
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Re: A VBU Question.

Post by Vilarion »

You can also use your own client like mIRC and use the settings supplied:
  • Server: irc.quakenet.org
  • Channel: #illarion
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