The Language of the Game

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Post by The Returner » Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:56 am

Re: The Language of the Game

I think another problem with language is that nobody is willing to learn language.

When playing a game like illarion, or anything else roleplay but not period enforced, you tend to run into a nasty problem of being crucified if you don't speak exactly like someone else wants you to speak. Although I agree someone should say they don't understand what a character is saying, they shouldn't do it OOC and whine about it. Another post said that characters come from different places, and the lack of communication ability is thus more realistic.

When I first came to this game, I made an effort to learn German. Not only did I overcome the language barrier, and make some friends, but I also LEARNED something, which helped me both inside and outside of the game. If people would make an effort when someone speaks another language, or uses old english, middle english, or shakespearian english, whatever, they might actually LEARN something.

Forbid some of the newer, younger crowd be exposed to a period game where they have to argue with an 11th century greek in old english about how much a saddle costs, that might take effort! :roll:

Its too bad few games exist that teach these kids anything anymore. But thats a subject for another thread.

If illarion were to follow the route of a period game based in historical fact and divergent mythos created by its creators around medievil europe typical myths and stories;

Poverty would be high, education would be low.
"Common" tongue would simply not exist. Lizards would speak lizard. Humans would speak various languages. Elfs would speak Elven. And learning another language would take education from someone who spoke both languages, and since racism would be ridiculously out of control, it would be nigh-impossible to see many Elf/Human or Dwarf/Lizard dealings that didn't involve an axe to the face.
If someone looked at you in a way that you took offensive or supersticiously incorrect with your culture, they'd get an axe to the face.
If anyone didn't agree with the establishment of the towns they lived in, they'd get an axe to the face. Or tortured and hung.
If you met someone you didn't know in the wilderness, they'd get an axe to the face. Especially if they spoke another language. And super especially if they looked different, or were smarter/stupider then you.


We're lucky the only things we have to worry about, is which slang we do and don't agree with :P

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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:09 am

Re: The Language of the Game

(( and Crommy, you need to get back ig! ))[/quote]

I would love to, but I have no time anymore. damn careerist lack of soul presence.*

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Post by Orioli » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:56 am

Re: The Language of the Game

Okay here are samples of good slang:
Hellbriar!
Oh Gods!
By the loins of Eldan!
For all the Perversions of Vanima!!
Fer dah love ob Demons!
Dam you to Cherga!


Get the idea? These are taking an idea and using ig story to reproduce language that is illa specific. At least I think so.

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Post by Dyluck » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:43 am

Re: The Language of the Game

The Returner wrote:By which source? According to every possible etymologist whose even spoken on the subject, O.K, Okay, and Ok are accepted variations and there is not one considered more formal. If you allow Okay, you have to allow every other spelling of the word, period, otherwise its not fair in a lingual sense. Unless you can provide me something written by a reputeable source, like, websters, harvard, oxford et al that says specifically "Okay" is the only word spelling that should be accepted as a formal word over every other spelling of the word.
It's not about linguistic fairness between variations of OK versus Okay. I'm talking about letter abbreviations versus words. OK can be considered a word, but it is also a letter abbreviation because each of the 2 letters actually stands for something and it's even pronounced as 2 seperate letters. Okay, on the other hand, is just a word and not a letter abbreviation because each of the 4 letters don't stand for something and it is pronounced only as an entire word, not as individual letters. I think most readers would consider letter abbreviations worse than words in most fantasy literature or in-game text, at least in my book. I guess the problem with letter abbreviations is just more of an issue about poor writing style, and not so much about whether any particular one belongs to a time or place.
Last edited by Dyluck on Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Rhianna Morgan » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:25 am

Re: The Language of the Game

@ The Returner: You said some great things up there. Thanks a lot!

I think the idea of talking about good slang rather than bad slang is also very usefull ^^ So I will start right away.

Like Orioli mentioned, it is always good to use ig history in order to create your own sayings. Maybe we could even have a part of the forum in order to post these created terms for others to see, so that the language environment in Illa gets richer and people have more motivation to get creative with language.

Also I see David Turner's problem with the high-brow / hillbilly talk. Yes, of course, not every char fits into those two categories. But that does not mean that they have to use modern chat slang ^^. Maybe using some creative illarion terms like mentioned above might already help. Also you can always watch other players, how they differ in their language, or just imagine how the words of your character might sound like in order to rewrite your words slightly and get a new "dialect" or even a very small accent.
Lizzard players do that a lot by just multiplying every *s*-sound they come along.
Albarian nobles would of course use high standart talk, as would a main part of the Salkamaerian people (because they have good education).
Albarian farmers would most certainly have some kind of accent, even if it just exists by skipping unnecessary syllables or sluring (for the German players: verschleifen) their language. You don't have to be superintelligent or great with languages to do such a thing, just imagine what you do in your everyday language.
I won't start with every culture on the island now, I mean, many people already have great dialects, idiolects, accents or whatever.
But maybe starting to collect good examples for different regional speech would be a great thing, not only for the newer players, but also for the elder ones (I for example would love to learn some stuff about races/cultures I have not rped so far but I might rp in the future!)

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Post by Uhuru » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:27 am

Re: The Language of the Game

The Returner wrote:When I first came to this game, I made an effort to learn German. Not only did I overcome the language barrier, and make some friends, but I also LEARNED something, which helped me both inside and outside of the game. If people would make an effort when someone speaks another language, or uses old english, middle english, or shakespearian english, whatever, they might actually LEARN something.
Does this go both ways? Aren't there also possibly people IG trying to learn English as well? I only ask because I have many friends who speak English as a second (or third or fourth) language and it is easier for them to learn to use it properly if I use it properly and consistently (this is a very difficult habit for me to break). I do understand that IG most believe it should be used as it was in old England or whatever. Why can't we use proper English (or at least better English) to help those that are wanting or trying to learn to use it properly? I don't know German. Are the German speaking users doing so in a dialect simalar to old world? And if so, how did this affect your ability to learn it Returner?

I for one don't like the use of the old world dialect. Is it really necessary? I can hardly understand many players. It's a huge struggle even after many months. I don't adapt it to my game style because I don't like it. I don't understand it. You all will probably beat me up for this as well. Tell me to leave the game. Whatever. It's just one aspect of a complex game. Why is it so freaking important to you? It distracts me from what is going on because I have to read what is written three and four times to interpret what is being said. It takes me forever. I don't know if anyone else has this issue, probably I'll be the only one to own up to it. Go ahead, beat me up for it. It is what it is. It interferes with my ability to interact and RP. I don't know how many times I've seen the word ooman and how long it took me to figure out that it meant human. (At least, I hope I'm right about that.)

All right, this is important to some of you. I don't get why. Please understand why some of us (or at least me) are not as excited about it as you are. Use some patience and understanding. Perhaps we could come to a mutual understanding or agreement. Maybe meet in the middle?

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Post by Pugnacious » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:32 am

Re: The Language of the Game

OK, yes OK.
First, I normally hate to post more than once. I don't like being part of the "I oppose this faction". I would rather be in support of something.
This topic does bother me though. Do to typos, language differences, and new verse old players, I think being to quick to judge how we express ourselves is crazy. The Returner seems to think that by Googling every past language, we can fix this. What we need is tolerance. Halve the time I have no idea what the other is saying, I look at the text closely and try my best to continue with the conversation. If I am wrong, they will try back. Somehow we get though it. As far as untimely slang goes, I just ignore it. I continue with how I was speaking and hope they learn from it. I am much more interested in active RP than if they type out the words right.
Which brings me to another thing. If you make a minor typo, don't feel you have to repeat your text. I get it. I am more concerned with the flow of the game than if you can spell.
What I have noticed in this game, is that whenever there is a chance to jump on someone ( no matter the topic ) everyone piles on. What we need is more tolerance.

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Post by Damien » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:06 am

Re: The Language of the Game

Söldnerharnischschulterpanzerbefestigungsschnalle.

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Post by Skamato » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:35 am

Re: The Language of the Game

Damien wrote:Söldnerharnischschulterpanzerbefestigungsschnalle.
:mrgreen:

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Post by Rhianna Morgan » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:18 pm

Re: The Language of the Game

Mein neues Lieblingswort ^^

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:30 pm

Re: The Language of the Game

Damien wrote:Söldnerharnischschulterpanzerbefestigungsschnalle.
Mercenaries armored harness shoulder buckle fastening?

Some great ideas from everyone, and good points about tolerance in language also by the way. Game specific sayings though are wonderful to hear.

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Post by The Returner » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:35 pm

Re: The Language of the Game

Uhuru wrote: Does this go both ways? Aren't there also possibly people IG trying to learn English as well? I only ask because I have many friends who speak English as a second (or third or fourth) language and it is easier for them to learn to use it properly if I use it properly and consistently (this is a very difficult habit for me to break). I do understand that IG most believe it should be used as it was in old England or whatever. Why can't we use proper English (or at least better English) to help those that are wanting or trying to learn to use it properly? I don't know German. Are the German speaking users doing so in a dialect simalar to old world? And if so, how did this affect your ability to learn it Returner?
It didn't. I made the effort to learn it. Many other people made the effort to learn. Some germans would speak in antiquated German, but I can't recall any old germanic languages EVER being used in illarion. As a general whole though, the Germans seem to be heads and shoulders above most english players in terms of roleplay lingual "Properness".

I for one don't like the use of the old world dialect. Is it really necessary? I can hardly understand many players. It's a huge struggle even after many months. I don't adapt it to my game style because I don't like it. I don't understand it. You all will probably beat me up for this as well. Tell me to leave the game. Whatever. It's just one aspect of a complex game. Why is it so freaking important to you? It distracts me from what is going on because I have to read what is written three and four times to interpret what is being said. It takes me forever. I don't know if anyone else has this issue, probably I'll be the only one to own up to it. Go ahead, beat me up for it. It is what it is. It interferes with my ability to interact and RP. I don't know how many times I've seen the word ooman and how long it took me to figure out that it meant human. (At least, I hope I'm right about that.)
Me wrote:
Forbid some of the newer, younger crowd be exposed to a period game where they have to argue with an 11th century greek in old english about how much a saddle costs, that might take effort! :roll:

Its too bad few games exist that teach these kids anything anymore. But thats a subject for another thread.
Ego sum rumex vos per perturbo ut interpretas dae. Utique vos habere perfectus quispiam utilis.

All right, this is important to some of you. I don't get why. Please understand why some of us (or at least me) are not as excited about it as you are. Use some patience and understanding. Perhaps we could come to a mutual understanding or agreement. Maybe meet in the middle?
Wir sind nicht alle gleich und die kontrol sind die charaktere, die wir schaffen. (I probably butchered that...)


Söldnerharnischschulterpanzerbefestigungsschnalle. :lol:

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Post by David Turner » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:05 am

Re: The Language of the Game

So much of this conversation comes down to the question "What is acceptable and what isn't?" I admit, I fall much farther onto the side of tolerance, you can still keep a lot of the period specific feeling without cutting out extremely common words (like "cool" or "HI"). So what do we gain by being overly dogmatic about what words do and don't fit? I honestly don't know anything good that comes out of it. Like it or not, the game is in decline because there are other things that are easier and more attractive to new players (I doubt anyone will disagree with that). This is not the time to be trying to make ourselves more exclusive and force a learning curve that works against new players.

That said, it is easy enough to remind players to avoid the worst of the stuff. Chat speech and letter abbreviations (ie: lol, rotfl, wtf, y, u, k, idk) are a pretty clear cut example of something that should be done differently. In most cases they are pretty clear cut about how to fix them too: either use the entire word or a similar standard word. For many of the rest, try to remember that words that came about in normal contemporary speech could easily have been derived the same way in an Illarion time line. Some words are even known to appear and then reappear slightly differently when the original use was lost and yet the word is reused for mainly the same reason. For example: the word "Hot" to refer to sexual desire goes back to the 1600's yet the use of the word to refer to a person who can inflame such desire is much less ancient. The term "cool" (which describes the act of being or a person who is "in control") was most likely created as a direct counterpoint to the earlier word "hot". It is easy to see how both of these words could easily be a part of any illarion time line.

For the most part, this discussion itself seems to only serve to let people parade around how much better they think they are at role-playing because they have a stricter guideline than someone else; and then they want to impose all or a large part of that guideline onto everyone else. There have been some good ideas brought up (my favorite is "damn you to Cherga"), so hopefully we can focus on more of those type of things. Here are a list of period specific words, idioms, and phrases; many or most of which I almost never hear in game:

Damn, hell, smile, uh-huh, yo, hey, cunt, crap, shit, whore, bastard, "the hell", "no bones about it", "break the ice", "A drop in the bucket", "a nest of vipers", "at your wits end", "bite the dust", "give up the ghost" (particularly good for this setting), "in the twinkling of an eye", "no rest for the wicked", "oh ye of little faith", "physician, heal thyself", "a fly in the ointment", "white as snow", my kingdom for a horse, all's well that ends well, dead as a doornail, one fell swoop, come what may, let slip the dogs of war, forever and a day, good riddance, hot blooded, heart on your sleeve, in a pickle, "like the dickens", makes your hair stand on end, strange bedfellows, much ado about nothing, night owl, rime nor reason, set my teeth on edge, stone hearted, a method to the madness, the short and long of it, up in arms, a wild goose chase

Every single one of these words or terms dates back to the 1600's or earlier and was verified either by looking up the etymology or by direct examination of the source. Sayings are a lot harder to look up, but most of these sayings come from either the Bible or Shakespeare (both of which fulfill the 1600's or earlier standard) and are fairly easy to find the source. I chose the 1600's because if you start going back much farther than that then the words and grammar structure quickly become illegible. As you can see by looking at the list, there really is no way to tell if a specific word or phrase has archaic roots without looking it up. The "average person slang" problem would be completely solved if people only used the words on just the first line of my examples and felt comfortable using others like them. There really is a lot of slang that should be available but generally isn't used.

So why isn't more slang used? My guess is that people are so scared of using the wrong term that they don't realize how many things are available. I honestly didn't until I started looking things up. While it may be an interesting point to debate, does it really ruin your immersion for someone to say "ok" rather than "Okay" (or the other way around)? If so then you need to lighten up. Have fun and get into the spirit of character interaction, not PO nitpicking. None of the characters have a reason to be seriously bothered by slang (unless they are a grammar teacher, but then they would be even more upset at the "hillbilly talk"), so hopefully this OOC question can remain largely OOC where it belongs and IC interaction can be focused more on the characters themselves rather than how they talk.

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Post by Anon of D'Athen » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:01 pm

Re: The Language of the Game

Uhuru, and others who seem to find that they have difficulty understanding Olde or Shakespearean English, I have a suggestion for you (which, coincidentally, will improve your RPing abilities in several ways). Read a Shakespearean play. Now, I don't mean skim over it and get the main jist as one would during high school. I mean sit down and read it, take time to enjoy the play. At first, yes, it will be difficult to read the play, but one may find that after several attempts (as searching on Google for definitions of interesting grammatical convolutions) one's mastery of English and understanding of other speech patterns. Not only those of the style which you are reading, but others that people will come up with in order to recreate a type of accent through written word.

Give it a try, please. It might even be fun and rewarding.

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