Opinion on certain roleplay

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Post by The Returner » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:22 pm

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

I agree with Nally :D

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Post by Silo » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:58 pm

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

So.. Wait... A disclaimer would not be enough for German law?

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Post by Djironnyma » Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:32 pm

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

no one, you have to test and proof taht just adults can play or forbid any rated content

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Post by Rincewind » Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:47 pm

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

Djironnyma wrote:no one, you have to test and proof taht just adults can play or forbid any rated content
So please insert the number of your credit card here.... lol

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Post by The Returner » Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:59 pm

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

Djironnyma wrote:no one, you have to test and proof taht just adults can play or forbid any rated content
The game should then be based where binding contract is the PROOF.

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Post by Anne Roy » Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:12 pm

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

Why the heck isn't this locked already...!?

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Post by Qeewee » Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:20 pm

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

Anne Roy wrote:Why the heck isn't this locked already...!?
Maybe they are curious that something might happen to change stuff if they keep it open long enough? :o

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Post by Silo » Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:44 pm

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

Or maybe because there's actually relevant, enlightening discussion occurring. Not everything must be locked instantly. Honestly, whining about it not being locked is far more off topic.

In any case, I've found the legal tidbits that explain all of this. Unfortunately, they also ban any racism and violence from reaching children via media. This makes me wonder why we haven't stopped such things from occurring as well. Any answers?

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Post by Grokk » Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:28 am

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

Silo wrote:Or maybe because there's actually relevant, enlightening discussion occurring. Not everything must be locked instantly. Honestly, whining about it not being locked is far more off topic.
Agreed. If you've got a problem with this thread...just don't read it.
Silo wrote:In any case, I've found the legal tidbits that explain all of this. Unfortunately, they also ban any racism and violence from reaching children via media. This makes me wonder why we haven't stopped such things from occurring as well. Any answers?
That's not quite correct.

Racism is against the rules of Illarion; it is stopped.

And the legislature is significantly more specific than just "violence". Take a look at this publication, which specifically addresses the issue of how the act operates in regards to computer games: http://www.bundespruefstelle.de/bpjm/re ... b=true.pdf

Illarion:

- we have several possible courses of action, aside from violence
- a significant part of the game involves non-violent activities
- death is portrayed in a form that does not suggest parallels with reality
- there are negative consequences, penalties and punishments that result from violence
- conflict can be resolved non-violently, and this is often the more advantageous method of resolution
- it is a fantasy game, within a fantasy world that does not closely mirror reality
- the violence that occurs in the game is rarely graphic or brutal
- the rules specifically forbid glorified and perverse violence

You would have a difficult time arguing that Illarion's violence warrants it a place on the list of media harmful to young persons, taking those factors into account. But when you start dealing with rape and overly-graphic torture, it becomes much more arguable, and you might even risk wandering into the area of criminal liability.

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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:02 am

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

Grokk wrote:
Silo wrote:Or maybe because there's actually relevant, enlightening discussion occurring. Not everything must be locked instantly. Honestly, whining about it not being locked is far more off topic.
Agreed. If you've got a problem with this thread...just don't read it.
Silo wrote:In any case, I've found the legal tidbits that explain all of this. Unfortunately, they also ban any racism and violence from reaching children via media. This makes me wonder why we haven't stopped such things from occurring as well. Any answers?
That's not quite correct.

Racism is against the rules of Illarion; it is stopped.
Well, that's possible, though obviously anyone with intent can argue that racism is not only tolerated in illarion, but totally flourishes.... Aye, ye longshank-greenskin-stubby-hairy-fish? I also guarantee you, that nobody has been banned (during my playing time) for saying "Women are crap fighters" IG despite the obvious sexism of the statement... which is banned too. In fact, I would consider a consistently totally sexist (in either direction) character to be much more entertaining and interesting than most other characters (not least because of the short life-expectancy such character would no doubt have when running into the wrong chars).

Hell, as far as I can say, racism (that is, not racial slurs, but rather racism as a racial supremacy doctrine and discrimination ingame) have been integral part of illa RP since 2001. Which is totally fine, since all reasonable people agree that Vanima and elves blow. And it's still banned, yawn.

(If you're gonna say "racism is banned in illa", you better own up to that statement :D)
And the legislature is significantly more specific than just "violence". Take a look at this publication, which specifically addresses the issue of the act in regards to computer games: http://www.bundespruefstelle.de/bpjm/re ... b=true.pdf

Illarion:
- we have several possible courses of action, aside from violence
Assuming the stronger side agrees with this hypothesis - we all know that using the engine to kill is a valid MO so long as a RP reason exists, the victim does not necessarily have a say in this.
- a significant part of the game involves non-violent activities
Depends on the player(s), HI MATT!
- death is portrayed in a form that does not suggest parallels with reality
Most of the time, but not always.
- there are negative consequences, penalties and punishments that result from violence
Only if you lose, or kill someone who is socially desirable (let's see how ze staat likes that one!)
- conflict can be resolved non-violently, and this is often the more advantageous method of resolution
If the stronger party agrees, and if replacing the potentially lost skills would be too much of a hassle.
- it is a fantasy game, within a fantasy world that does not closely mirror reality
Point.
- the violence that occurs in the game is rarely graphic or brutal
Slaughtering defenceless or unarmed people? That sounds pretty brutal to me, especially if filtered through ze deutschebeamtenbrille.
- the rules specifically forbid glorified and perverse violence
Is 2½-3½/8 enough to qualify?
You would have a difficult time arguing that Illarion's brutal violence warrants less than 33 year minimum age and a placement on the list of media über-harmful to young persons, taking those factors into account.
In fact, I would not have any trouble arguing anything at all, having actually experienced Illarion gameworld. It's just a matter of how to intereprete things, and how the clueless SOBs have decided to craft their uniformed and misguided general instructions, and how us reasonable folk are actually supposed to make sense of that shit.

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:58 am

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

Example of US based adult game rules, however I think the laws in the US are more lax then in Germany though the latest read seems to indicate Germany is now allowing a few games that in the past were considered too violent.
Age Restriction

(name of game) is a 17+ shard. You must be 17 years old or older to play. If you are under 17 and wish to play, you must have permission from your parents or guardian. Permission can only be obtained by a phone call to your parents. We allow mature topics, including sexual role-play and other adult situations. If you are found to have lied on your application to gain entrance, you will be banned.
Adult themed roleplay is by line of sight, players are not allowed any adult themed roleplay in "public" places, nor with any character with a "young" in their title which indicates that player is under 17. One thing to note however is unlike Illarion at the moment, you can't "hear" through walls. The idea of placing a "young" or similar in the title would in effect prevent those chars from coming into contact with more adult themes yet still allow all ages to play.

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Post by Grokk » Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:48 am

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

Mr. Cromwell wrote:Well, that's possible, though obviously anyone with intent can argue that racism is not only tolerated in illarion, but totally flourishes.... Aye, ye longshank-greenskin-stubby-hairy-fish? I also guarantee you, that nobody has been banned (during my playing time) for saying "Women are crap fighters" IG despite the obvious sexism of the statement... which is banned too. In fact, I would consider a consistently totally sexist (in either direction) character to be much more entertaining and interesting than most other characters (not least because of the short life-expectancy such character would no doubt have when running into the wrong chars).

Hell, as far as I can say, racism (that is, not racial slurs, but rather racism as a racial supremacy doctrine and discrimination ingame) have been integral part of illa RP since 2001. Which is totally fine, since all reasonable people agree that Vanima and elves blow. And it's still banned, yawn.

(If you're gonna say "racism is banned in illa", you better own up to that statement :D)
Racism against Orcs and Elves is not banned. Nor is it racism in any relevant sense. You are not going to get anywhere with this argument. I'm not sure what importance sexism is here either.
Mr. Cromwell wrote:
- we have several possible courses of action, aside from violence
Assuming the stronger side agrees with this hypothesis - we all know that using the engine to kill is a valid MO so long as a RP reason exists, the victim does not necessarily have a say in this.
The game still offers multiple courses of action, and they are regularly taken. A person can play Illarion without resorting to any form of violence whatsoever.
Mr. Cromwell wrote:
- a significant part of the game involves non-violent activities
Depends on the player(s), HI MATT!
It doesn't depend on the player, because we are talking about the entire game. Crafting = significant part of the game. Politics = significant part of the game. Sitting around a campfire talking = significant part of the game. Etc.
Mr. Cromwell wrote:
- there are negative consequences, penalties and punishments that result from violence
Only if you lose, or kill someone who is socially desirable (let's see how ze staat likes that one!)
They are still penalties. And everybody is desirable to some society. The very fact that you bring up society shows why this argument is going to fail. Illarion has a (semi-) functioning society, and violence is necessarily going to lead to undesirable consequences. The act is concerned with games that treat violence lightly, where you shoot people just to shoot people and nothing results from it.
Mr. Cromwell wrote:
- conflict can be resolved non-violently, and this is often the more advantageous method of resolution
If the stronger party agrees, and if replacing the potentially lost skills would be too much of a hassle.
That's nonsense. The majority of Illarion's conflicts do not get resolved with violence. Conflict in Illarion does not have to mean two soldiers standing a few paces apart, each wielding a sword. That conflict within Illarion can be social, commercial, political, religious, and so on just goes toward my point. The game is not dominated by violence (or violent conflicts) and there are alternate methods of conflict resolution available and employed.
Mr. Cromwell wrote:
- the violence that occurs in the game is rarely graphic or brutal
Slaughtering defenceless or unarmed people? That sounds pretty brutal to me, especially if filtered through ze deutschebeamtenbrille.
Sure, that's one of those rare instances. But that would also lead to serious repercussions for the character. My point was that the visual graphics of Illarion are very poor, and barely depict violence at all. And in terms of roleplay and writing, violence is rarely graphic either. It is usually very tame and non-descriptive.

The purpose of the act is to protect children from media dominated by violence, where reality is mirrored but not accurately reflected, and where said violence is an end in itself, is the only way to get 'justice', is legitimised, goes unpunished, and could be seen to incite violence in the real world. I can't see how anything you've said moves it inside that class of games. It's a fairly ridiculous set of laws, in my view, but that doesn't change the fact that it is the law there.

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Post by The Returner » Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:04 am

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

If violence in a game incites violence in the real world, parents of said child have failed entirely. Seperating fantasy from reality has never been a problem for me, and I've been exposed to the best of the most gruesome games and horror movies since I was at least three.

But thats not really the subject. The subject is how can we remove minors from seeing content not ment for minors. Easy. Remove the minors.

I don't see WHY a binding contract is not accepted in germany. If a person who is not of the age of consent agrees to a page that shows them content not fit for them to see, then it is binding, and almost every other country I can think of. It is then the responibility of the parents to do something about it. Granted, the parents usual reaction is a lawsuit, however, such contracts have prevented many a game downfall.

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Post by Silo » Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:32 pm

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

^ Agreed.

@Grokk, his racism and sexism point is valid. Racial discrimination and sexism do play a role in Gobaith which, according to German law, is prohibited (racism, at least, though likely sexism somewhere). You could argue that racism only occurs against fantastical characters (which it doesn't, as there are humans), but you could also argue that only fantastical characters would be the victims of rape (which, I'm assuming, they wouldn't). You could toss in the "it is a fantasy game, within a fantasy world that does not closely mirror reality," but I'm to assume that that's only relevant to violence.

So, my question still stands, on racism at the very least.

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Post by Grokk » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:20 am

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

Nah, racism won't hold up. The law isn't concerned with preventing hatred against Orcs, Elves or Lizardmen. Even where humans are the subject of racism in game, it is still only against the species as a whole, or against the specific fictional races. Neither could be said to have any meaningful position within the scope of the act. It would be an extremely generous (and mistaken) reading of the legislation where this sort of 'racism' created a risk of inciting racial violence.

Much more so than rape, racism requires certain real-life, non-fantastical elements (ie. the subject being an actual human race). Short of that, it just isn't racism in any relevant sense, certainly not something we would regard as immoral. Rape, on the other hand, closely reflects reality even where it involves fantasy elements. It's morally offensive in any circumstance.

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Post by Silo » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:30 am

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

Point taken. Thank you.

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Post by Drathe » Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:53 pm

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

So let me get this right, the ACT of being racists, the thoughts and doings of someone playing the game and BEING racist in game is 'not' considered being racists or having the issues of players effected by such acts because its in the context of a game with fictional characters and is not morally offensive? Are we for real here is this a serious answer? (I'm sure there are lots of statistics of people who suffered greatly them selves due to racial bullying and worse, to bastardise a previous argument.) That said the same could be said with any of the issues brought up in this thread so why not remove them all. Just have hugs and smiles.

I find it just astounding some of the arguments for and against, the views and some of the seemingly warped ideas people have on what is/not morally offensive and why. The reasoning that the said context of a fantasy game so it's ok can be used when it suits but dropped when not, spiteful mass murdering characters can be promoted as acceptable in an argument against playing a rapist just don't sit well with me.

After laws and server rules, instead of all these rather poorly thought out and reasoned arguments (IMO) against such things, it just simply is. 'We, the majority of the game players/staff don't want rape or highly sexualised content in game as it promotes a game experience and content that is not wanted or condoned and detracts from the core values of Illarion.' Thats a simple and fair enough statement wouldn't you agree as to why the small lose of freedom (if that could be considered as such.) There are other games for such content to be played out in.

But the whole morals and RL statistics can not be argued and used as a reason to not include something morally wrong and then in the same breath say something equating the forbidden is fine because its a fantasy game and it wont upset no one.

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Post by Dyluck » Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:01 am

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

Racism and laws against racism in real life are meant to protect HUMANS from discriminating against and infringing on EACH OTHER's basic rights based on skin color/culture/etc. Confict between SPECIES in a fantasy game between Orcs and Elves, or a Human killing a Sheep, is not "racism" nor within the spirit of what it means to prevent "racism". Maybe someday when humans encounter other alien speicies or something this may become an issue, but not today. People, please take context into consideration and not just take one single word "racism" by its inherrent definition and apply it where it was not meant to be.


Whether murder or sexual violence, or any other immoral acts are allowed is not a question of which one is necessarily more morally offensible than the other. It's not about comparing which things are worse. Things like sexual violence or graphic violence are simply considered more taboo or stigmatizing in most countries, and it is reflected in the laws which must be followed. It's that simple.

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Post by Silo » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:50 am

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

@Drathe I've never taken kindly to "This is like this because I said so." That's the reason that I've (kind of) instigated actual reasoning, here. Simply making a rule when the basis behind it is completely unstable (or completely unexplained) makes for the beginnings of a very poor future. How can you ban something when there's a host of other allowed things that parallel it in near entirety?

@Dyluck Everything you've said about racism can be applied to rape, and that is why I'm asking for a stronger argument. You say that rape is considered more offensive, but it appears nearly as often in literature as themes of extreme violence. The truth of the matter is that everyone has a different standard of where things stand on their morality scale - to ban one thing because of your own views of this scale would be too one-sided to justify.

In all honesty, everyone has a different experience that is difficult to remember. To ban everything that may offend someone would be to ruin what Illarion is. When you play an open-ended RPG, you should expect content to appear (if rarely) that you may disagree with, but you shouldn't take it out of context. Nothing that is done is performed with the sole goal to ruin someone's evening - it's done to keep the game interesting, and to make it fun for all involved.

Few, if any, players have trouble with this idea, and I think it's safe to say that no one will be going around raping people. If it fits into a role-playing circumstance and happens, I'd trust our players to handle it appropriately. I also don't think it'll turn out to be a big deal. No one's life will be ruined over it. Blowing something like this out of proportion just doesn't need to happen. Graphic sexual acts are prohibited, so if anything DOES happen, it won't happen in detail. This alone should keep it from being a life-changing event.

Had to be said eventually.

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Post by Dyluck » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:02 am

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

Silo wrote: @Dyluck Everything you've said about racism can be applied to rape, and that is why I'm asking for a stronger argument. You say that rape is considered more offensive, but it appears nearly as often in literature as themes of extreme violence. The truth of the matter is that everyone has a different standard of where things stand on their morality scale - to ban one thing because of your own views of this scale would be too one-sided to justify.
No, I did not say rape is more offensive. In fact, I specifically went out of my way to say that it's NOT about comparing which acts are more offensive. What I did say was that some things are considered more TABOO by our societies, which is reflected in the laws of our nations which we must abide by. It's true that we have different standards of morality, which is why banning things is not necessarily about morality. Some things are not allowed simply for legal reasons.

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Post by Silo » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:16 am

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

Dyluck wrote: No, I did not say rape is more offensive. In fact, I specifically went out of my way to say that it's NOT about comparing which acts are more offensive. What I did say was that some things are considered more TABOO by our societies, which is reflected in the laws of our nations which we must abide by. It's true that we have different standards of morality, which is why banning things is not necessarily about morality. Some things are not allowed simply for legal reasons.
I just read that more closely and realized my mistake. My apologies. :P The downside of your argument is that the laws you draw on are directed at minors - not at the adult player base that Illarion is targeted toward. Which means that we all get to be unhappy, because disclaimers aren't enough in German law.

Keep forgetting about this damned law-thing. -.-

In any case, I do believe that these laws only prevent the graphic representation of rape/torture/etc. The topics of rape, graphic violence, and other such prohibited material aren't banned - they can still be "done," meaning that players can agree that they happened, yes? I'm fairly sure that there's not a child out there that could play this game to any degree and not know the meaning of rape or torture. And I'm even more doubtful that any mention of those words would ruin their lives.

If this isn't the case, then this topic has broken enough laws to put Illarion in considerable danger.

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Post by Nalzaxx » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:29 am

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

This might be a silly question but...do you really want rape to be a part of Illarion?

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Post by Silo » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:52 am

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

Do I DESIRE it? No. Do I want role play to be limited? No. Do I see any problem with rape occurring as a "passed over" event (a mutual agreement that it happened)? No. Do I see any problem with it occurring in any detail? Yes.

If I'm the only one that has a problem with this, then, please, tell me. I don't mind being overruled - I don't think I'm alone, though. I don't feel that it's right to cut out a single event simply because of one's own views, and not cut out any events associated with it. It's all or nothing - if you're going to ban rape, even as a "passed over" event, then all such activities should be banned. Sexual acts, graphically violent acts, racism against humans, domestic violence, and anything else that may near said acts would have to be removed from the game entirely, including character backgrounds.

EDIT: By no means am I promoting that such acts be graphically #me'd. I'm mostly talking about agreements that an activity happened and character backgrounds.

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Post by Nalzaxx » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:31 am

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

Why must it be an all or nothing approach?

I really don't understand why we must insist on drawing lines in the sand when we, as capable and competent adults, are able to understand what is acceptable social behaviour and what is not. Any sort of philosophical extraction can of course be used to argue to either extreme, but we are living in the real world and in such a case this exercise is of very little use.

I don't want to see rape in Illarion, and I am sure the majority of other players feel the same way, but it remains that even those who DO want to see rape ingame understand that such a sentiment isn't a socially acceptable one and that indulging in such a taboo will have consequences. That doesn't need us to pinpoint, legally or philosophically, where the line should be drawn in the sand. We are capable of using our common sense and discretion to determine such things because we are not machines but human beings that are capable of understanding such social constructs.

This extends beyond the community of illarion itself and towards that of Germany. Whose laws reflect that same understanding of current social ethics. You might not agree with the status quo, but unless you are prepared to take it to germany's high court (or whatever its equivalent is) then there is little use arguing about it on here. It isn't about a single persons views, but the general consensus of society.

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Post by Silo » Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:05 am

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

If we are to go by law, then we'd have to ban any and all sexual activities from Illarion, which would mean that no pregnancies would occur, and no children (however few they may be) may turn up in game. Racism against humans couldn't be allowed, and any acts of extreme violence - which would have to be clarified by our local law-maker - could not turn up ingame. That's that.

My answer to the all or nothing approach, though? I'm going to have to go brutally honest for it (and probably get into some detail), so I'd like to apologize before hand and offer a disclaimer to any sexual assault / domestic violence / death victims that I will be mentioning it in a rather blatant - and potentially rude, depending on how you percieve it - manner. If you have experienced one of these things, I'd caution against further reading.

I'd also like to point out that these are my own views, and I'm not aspiring to press them on anyone, nor start a flame war of any shape or size. Feel free to add "It is my belief that..." to the beginning of all the following sentences.

-PLEASE read above before continuing-

Rape is not the worst of the worst. It has taken on a cultural reputation of the not-to-be-spoken of taboo, and while it IS bad, it does not deserve the reputation of the "worst." There are other things that are just as, if not more, life changing. Take domestic violence. It parallels rape all to closely - to myself, there is no difference. Domestic violence is all the more powerful because the betrayal of a loved one is involved. With rape, this is not always the case. To call rape the greater evil would be to disregard that betrayal, which I find more than insulting.

So why not just ban domestic violence, too? Because it's not the only thing that surpasses rape in immorality. Take death, now. Rape alienates one's life - it changes it for the worse, for a period of time if not for all of it. But death? Death removes life. It's not just that you can't live life differently - you can't live it at all. To murder someone is to violate them in a way that can never - ever - be repaired. And yet it plays a significant role in Illarion, without question.

You could say that death is inevitable; it's a disease that we're all plagued with, and so it should not be censored, for we'll all experience it. But murder? Murder is the taking of life before one's given the chance to experience death on one's own terms, just as rape is the forcing of sexual acts before one can consent to them on their own terms. They are equivalent in all but one detail: rape violates one's chance to live life normally, while murder violates one's chance to live life at all.

While murder and domestic violence have not become a "norm" by any shape or form, they are seen as less a taboo than rape. Why? Because rape adds a sexual explicitness that we find too vulgar to mention alongside the violation that it already contains. But this sexual explicitness is already allowed in Illarion, in a non-detailed way (mutual consent that it occured). So how can murder, domestic violence, and sex (not cybering) be allowed, but not rape?

EDIT:

I got too side tracked to end with my point, I guess. Everyone has different views on what should be allowed and what shouldn't - to cater to one audience without catering to the other would alienate our players and provide too big an opportunity for flame wars and the like. I'm sure you can see that.

The only solution to this is either to ban all of them, or none of them. Asking someone to allow rape to be banned because it is too traumatizing an experience, while they've had a far more traumatizing experience with murder or domestic violence (just examples), would be far from fair - it'd be blatantly insulting. So, you either ban all such experiences, and leave Illarion a shell of a role playing game, or you allot a disclaimer to warn players that this is an open ended role playing game that may contain situations that parallel - sometimes too closely - to real life.


And I've officially made one of "those" rants that I swore I'd never write. Sorry to anyone that actually read all of that.

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Post by The Returner » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:10 am

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

Like Dyluck said, taking laws too literally would be slightly ridiculous.

And like Nally says, we're all adults. At least most of us. Some of us. Well. I am.

If the 'law' means we most start imposing ridiculous (further ridiculous) limits on illarion, it becomes less the chaotic, fun, sporadic game old players remember, and becomes more this structured, clique'd mess full off people who DID NOT INITIALLY READ THE DISCLAIMER TO BEGIN WITH.

I still stand by remove the kids or change the location of the server hosting if this is that big of a deal in Germany. The main problem is not the act of rape. Forced RP is already bannable(So that if someone did get raped, and did not want to be raped, this would be taken care of wouldnt it?). Its that the action of rape, sex and pros and cons of such actions limit the world of illarion, and thus require players to OOC communicate between chars, and this cross communication is already a problem IG, since the entirity of almost everything is run by people on AIM or MSN.

We can have a fun game of roleplaying random fun-ness. Or we can have Illarion: My Little Pony Sunshine and Sparkles Edition.


Edit: Didn't we have this discussion like eight years ago when people wanted sex banned then and staff refused? O.o;

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Post by Grokk » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:47 am

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

Silo, in a real world situation, some of your points are absolutely valid. I'd even go so far as to say that I agree with some of them. There is definitely a strong case to be made for considering murder more morally reprehensible than rape. But I think the problem with your argument is that there is no one actually being murdered here. Nor anyone actually being raped. We are not (in this part of the discussion) talking about the real life actions of murder or rape. We are talking about fictional representations of them in a video game. And there is not a strong analogy between the two forms, when you are speaking in terms of morality or taboo. Murder is a taboo in real life, absolutely. I can't think of many worse. But that doesn't mean that a fictional representation of murder is a taboo also.
Silo wrote:Asking someone to allow rape to be banned because it is too traumatizing an experience, while they've had a far more traumatizing experience with murder or domestic violence (just examples), would be far from fair - it'd be blatantly insulting
Maybe this is what is causing everyone to seemingly completely miss everyone else's positions on this matter. This reason (rape being banned because of real-life experience) is a poor one, for the very reasons you point out. But I don't think anyone who is trying to provide an explanation for the banning of rape is actually relying on that argument.

The actual reasoning being relied on (as it seems to me anyway) is that which was well-put by Nalzaxx above. It's an issue of societal taboos. In this sense, murder and rape really aren't comparable.
The Returner wrote:If the 'law' means we most start imposing ridiculous (further ridiculous) limits on illarion[...]
But there haven't been any suggestions of imposing any new restrictions. That is what is ridiculous. Everyone in this thread (I imagine) wants there to be mass murders in Illarion. Everyone wants there to be 'racism'. Everyone wants there to be room for at least a little torture. Everyone wants evil. And, as far as I can tell, no one plans on raping anyone IG.

No one is directly objecting to the banning of rape, but instead to this idea that our 'freedom' has suddenly gone out the window. But nothing has actually changed. We haven't had that little bit of freedom for a long time. And it doesn't seem to have affected anything.

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Post by The Returner » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:31 pm

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

The quality of the IG atmosphere has been on a decline since like 2004. Its only just starting to recover, and thats mostly due to the fact that theres so few active players now all the cliques have either disasembled or have cross-friendships. Theres not enough going on atall for people, so people make things to do. Lots of time, people just need to cyber-screw. Its a fact of life, if an MMO exists, someone will do the dwarf-orc naked dance in it.

Maybe if this game had more to do, instead of being run by 15 or 20 people OOC, and lightly monitored by staff because of Illarion: Forever. And maybe if it had more players, then morality discussion would be justified. But 5 to 10 player average, and sometimes as low as one Pger in the off hours, makes this almost entirely mute. I would assume most of us are age of consent, and I would assume that those arent, if they are mature enough to roleplay (even at bad quality, some of you, please.) can seperate fantasy from reality and deal with mature themes. This is a game, and actions of a game should not be dictated by silliness like "Exposing minors to...."

Minors are exposed to alot more then roleplay rape in an obscure mmo that hardly anyone plays because its gone through nearly five years of staff rotation and direction change.

If roleplay rape happened, and it is indeed consensual, then it should happen. If people want to sex, they should sex, as their characters would indeed sex, which is to say, not in the middle of town. If someone wants to open a brothel, they should open a brothel, if someone wants to work there, they should work there, if someone wants to visit, then god damnit, let them visit.

If roleplay rape happened and it was forced RP, then thats a discussion for staff to take care of on their shiney private staff forum with their bansticks of ultimate pain.

Morality should not factor into this at all. If people can't do what they want, because of silliness 'legal' reasons, they have a right to complain because freedoms are being limited.

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Post by Nalzaxx » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:36 pm

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

Yes but, complaining here does nothing. If you want to complain about your freedoms being taken away in illa, go complain to the german high court.

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Post by The Returner » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: Opinion on certain roleplay

If I wasn't ten thousand kilometres from Germany, I would go around Berlin, and take as many pictures of kids being exposed to adult themes and activities daily as I could. And take THOSE to the german high court.

I don't understand why the server can not be moved to a neutral location.

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