Gem Rarity

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Post by Elijah » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:45 pm

Gem Rarity

I've been discussing with some players in character and out, gathering knowledge about magic gems. And let me get this straight, gems can be combined 3 into 1, up to level 10. Doing the math, a level 10 gemstone would require 3 to the power of 10 gems, which is 59049 gems.

Now, looking at current drop rate of, say, amethyst from red mage skeletons. Let's assume wildly that a gem drops once every day. That is, if you farm for it 24/7 without a break. With that rate of activity, if I farmed for them 24/7 without sleep, food, and forget RP, I would be able to assemble one level 10 gem in.... 162 years! So, literally, every member of the playerbase has to be farming them for one person to get anywhere near to a realistic figure. Maybe if I was lizardman in real life, my grand son would have a chance of finally getting that 4+ agility bonus.

I understand that high level gems are designed to be "rare", but... making it more than human lifespan, is kind of taking rare to the wrong extreme? No? If nobody is meant to have a level 10 gem, why bother have it in the game?

Will this problem be addressed in the VBU?

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:40 pm

Re: Gem Rarity

The ways how to obtain magical gems will change slightly but you will still need hundreds of years to get a level 10 gem. Those high level gems are not supposed to be the result of a farming process...

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Post by Djironnyma » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:41 pm

Re: Gem Rarity

this is no probem it is a permanent motivation it is not want or usefull that any goal of the game is reachable.

and anyway except for (temporary) quest high lvl gems are anyway to mighty to be reachable for players anyway how much you PG

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Post by Grim_banned » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:44 pm

Re: Gem Rarity

Dji, want to write in english? Can't understand a word.. just sayin'

@topic: I must agree with Elijah.. Having something in the game that can not be obtained is completely well.. silly.

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Post by Athian » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:45 pm

Re: Gem Rarity

(disclaimer: this is past hearsay, do not check for accuracy :wink: )
gemstones version 1.0 are too powerful for mortals^^ at least at there high levels.

The problem will be addressed most likely by an extreme reassessment of the current gemstones and a further weakening of their bonuses. What I think most people do not understand is exactly how exceptional gemstones can be. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that with the right combination of high level gemstones a single player could becoming completely unstoppable outside of the auto-death GM rune. Thus because the gemstones can have such stellar effects and cause what I can assume could be considered massive imbalances (this can already be demonstrated with certain low level gems and item combinations) they were made to be exceptionally rare. Rather then taking the opportunity away from players to get gems at all it seems the choice was just to make it an extremely high bar to meet.

Also you did forget to include the failure rate in gem fusion, if you add the chances of a failed fusion with high level gems, its more likely that you'll see a level 10 stone some time in 22XX :mrgreen:.

Post VBU I believe gems were going to to be more common in there lower levels but drastically weaker then they are now, however this is only hearsay until someone developing decides to stop in and give some more conclusive information on gemstones.

Edit:@Estralis tell us all your VBU secrets ^^

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Post by Ace » Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:15 pm

Re: Gem Rarity

What is the advantage of having 1-2 very overpowered characters, rather than make every character exceptional, and thus equal?

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Post by Athian » Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: Gem Rarity

I think time has proven that t no ones going to reach the 'very overpowered' stage with gemstones as the drop rates and system stand now. Changes come with the VBU, lets see what they are before we start analyzing.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:31 pm

Re: Gem Rarity

Athian, your hearsay is not more than hearsay. The gem effects are (as of: current state of VBU development) virtually unchanged. Some boni don't work anymore, so work has to be spent in that field.

Maybe I should rephrase my first reply: High level gems are something you get as a quest reward. Grinding for years is an alternative method, but as the threadstarter pointed out, you'd have to dedicate some time into this. So: Low level gems = loot, high level gem = quest reward. If you loot tons of low level gems, you can go for some high level gems by combining them, that is possible. As Dji pointed out, you have a long term goal there. Too long term for a level 10 gem, but how about level 4 or 5? Level 10 is something... theoretical. You will never see such a gem in the game except for well controlled quest situations.

And no, magical gems won't become much more common. The ways how to obtain them will be changed. So you can do something else to get them instead of hacking the very same dumb skeleton at the very same spot in the very same lame dungeon of boredom.

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Post by Athian » Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:37 pm

Re: Gem Rarity

That's exactly why i put up the hearsay disclaimer ^^ you know how it floats around.

Though i suppose that brings us right back to another rub. Many of us HAVE seen level 10 level gems in action. As much like the players GM's occasionally liked to play around with them and show them off. what we haven't seen however is these supposed 'quests' that will bring higher level gems into the game and not just level 10 mind you. So I'm wondering now how the gem's will be moderated, as they are of current the single most valuable prize anyone could have.People would gladly take a level 2-3 gemstone over 10-20 gold coins. Lovely economy crashers they can be ^^

Will there be static quests that might yield the beloved Gemstones? Or will these sorts of rewards be handled only by GM conducted quests, which are subject large amounts of infrequency? Are they going to be a sort of item where if you do get a high level gem in a quest you run the risk of having it taken away from you if you make use of it in lets say PVP or farming some higher class monster's? At the moment it seems the ones that covet gems the most are the staff who have hardly released anything but mid level diamonds (virtually useless for everything) rather then the players. It's not much a wonder for me why we'd have people who want them to become easier to obtain, as the GM's certainly haven't' been willing to share them, even via quests.

As too the rarity I think the standard is fine except when it comes to certain monsters actual drop rates..If we're going to have monsters potentially more powerful then that evil black dragon then it seems silly to have a potentially army killing monster have a 1% drop rate on it's gemstone item, even if the gem itself is higher then level 1. Considering the black dragon as a mold for future baddies I imagine some monsters are going to be very powerful, hopefully the amount of risk will match the reward.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:08 am

Re: Gem Rarity

OK, big VBU secret here: You will be able to get magical gems via static quests. You can get them as monster drop. And you will be able to... mine for them! Big show surprise here, eh? There will be a couple (~half a dozen) other ways in addition. And once the GM staff is done with developing their share for the VBU - I'd like to add that in two major development fields out of five, GMs contributed the vast share of VBU content - you will see, of course, GM driven quests. Maybe you can get a nice gem that way, too ;-).

However, magical gems will always remain rare, especially the higher levels. Making them common as pebbles would kill another one of those few goals people have left in this game. But as I said, every player will have a fair chance for some of them and mindless grinding won't be necessary anymore.

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Post by Athian » Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:04 pm

Re: Gem Rarity

Sounds awesome to me. static methods and Dynamic ones like GM quests (of course GM quests are way more fun and involving) together are always a good way to balance things. Mining for them also sounds good, and it makes plenty of sense. seems like there will be a lot of things to learn after the VBU. We can all look forward to it ^^

I had been talking mostly the time before heavy VBU times for the GM's. There have been other times when fun trinkets are given out in quests, and were deemed to powerful for people and thus taken away. Those always ended up as GM only quest rewards and that became a category that took up a big chunk of the item list. Try asking how many players have seen let alone owned items like the Malachin dagger or the heavy fire war axe :) .

All those who even contributed a little to the VBU of course have my utmost appreciation.

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Post by The Returner » Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:28 pm

Re: Gem Rarity

Man, the most powerfull thing ive owned in this game are about three or four icebirds. I'd kill for a heavy fire war axe.

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Post by GolfLima » Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:50 pm

Re: Gem Rarity

Sounds good to me.
As a non fighter it was difficult to get such gems, but with the VBU it becomes easier to "find" such gems.

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Post by Silo » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:17 am

Re: Gem Rarity

It IS kind of annoying that, currently, only fighters can get the gems. I totally want an amethyst for my lute.

But, I am quite proud of our developers, game masters, and other assorted personal who thought to fix this conundrum. You've my gratitude. Perhaps we can shred some cooperative lute/flute/horn in the near future. WHILE smoking tobacco. Gosh, you guys are genius. [No sarcasm intended.]

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Post by Flux » Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:17 pm

Re: Gem Rarity

Elijah wrote:I've been discussing with some players in character and out, gathering knowledge about magic gems. And let me get this straight, gems can be combined 3 into 1, up to level 10. Doing the math, a level 10 gemstone would require 3 to the power of 10 gems, which is 59049 gems.
It's 3^(n-1), you need 19683 gems (3^9) to make a level 10. (In the same way you need 3 level 1 gems to make a level 2 gem (3^1), not 9 gems (3^2).

Not that that's much better.

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Post by Alexander Knight » Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:27 pm

Re: Gem Rarity

Personally I like it. Magical gems shouldn't be common and should fetch a high price and be the talk of the town.
Yes it will take a long time to get one but thats why you sell them :)

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