RP conflicts and Guidelines

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Nalzaxx
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Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Post by Nalzaxx »

Grokk wrote:
Nalzaxx wrote:
Grokk wrote:When was the last time that a significant IG conflict was resolved entirely in game? (i.e. without anyone crying to the staff or abusing OOC to get ahead)
This has never, ever, happened in the entire history of illarion.
Does this not seem like a major problem to anyone else? A problem that something should be done about?
Yes, something should be done about it, the problem comes in people wanting to do the right thing about it. People will shout how its terrible and how people should be punished for engaging in it and all the horrible things we should do to the dastardly people that endulge in it. And everyone will agree that its the best thing to do because bad people should be punished for such transgressions and how can anyone argue with that but no-one will admit that they do it.

However such an attitude is completely unhelpful and utterly unenforceable and will do nothing to stop the problem. Its the same trend that is seen in so many areas of illarion such as conflicts and 'enforcing' roleplay and preventing powergaming and all that jazz. Punish punish punish and shout at anyone who says stop because it isnt working.

And really untill this attitude towards the game changes then nothing else is going to change.
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Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Post by Grokk »

Couldn't agree more.

The attitude is spread all throughout the community, right up to the top. I think the head would be the best place to start.

The staff seems to have this mindset of 'hunt down every single rule-breaker, and come down on them with everything we've got, no matter how minor the breach.' If they don't have enough evidence to dish out a severe punishment, they just sit on the offender's shoulder until they find a slip-up or breach of some sort, and then make their move. It isn't a healthy approach.

If the staff put even half of the time they spent moderating the game and forums into doing something creative, I think there would be some pretty incredible stuff going on IG. Stop spending so much effort on the 'bad guys', and concentrate on the good ones. Look at the Community Managers, for example. This position was created for entirely positive reasons: support new players, develop a positive community atmosphere, help resolve disputes and conflicts. They've been around for almost an entire year, and this recent initiative by Achea is the first productive thing I've seen them do. In true Illarion fashion, they've been entirely focused with nothing but moderating the forums and game. (And doing a poor job of it, too.)

Most of the time, the people complaining are just as bad for the game as the people who are breaking the rules. A lot of complaints are just people wanting their character to get a leg-up in game. Stop listening to them and they will stop complaining. When people can open a new MSN window, whine to a GM or CM friend, and cause someone else to be punished, of course they are going to complain. Most rule breaches are not worth punishing. Instead, try issuing a warning and explain to the player what they have done wrong and how they can remedy their behaviour. Better yet, sit down with the offender and have a reasonable discussion. Heck, get the person who complained in there too. Try to remedy the relationship between the players. Remove the conflict altogether, rather than assuming that one party must be guilty and punishing them so.

This game does not have the player numbers to allow the staff the liberty of just issuing perma-bans left, right and centre. Far too many have been issued throughout the history of Illarion. And far too many of them to good players. I struggle to think of too many rule breaches which would even warrant permanent banishment from the game. It would have to take a long chain of very serious offences, through which the player has shown they simply cannot function within the game. People change, too. I know that these banishments are 'permanent', but, in a lot of cases, it seems pretty messed up that these are still being actively enforced 3/4 years on.

Stop punishing the people who create conflicts. A single one of these players is significantly better for the game than five campfire-huggers are. RP needs conflict. The reason that Illarion is constantly stale is because there is no conflict whatsoever. And that's because there are none of these players around. They've been banned, or driven away. On the last four, maybe five, occasions that I can recall being involved in or being told about a major conflict forming IG, it has been killed, at least in part, by the staff. People who didn't like that their paradise was being interrupted complained to the staff, the staff took some form of action, and it either killed the conflict dead, or destroyed the motivation of the players organising it. That is messed up. These are the players that the staff should be giving their full support to, not trying to remove from the game.

Rather than focus on the people who exploit OOC, focus on why they are doing it. For a game that we are told "is not about winning and losing", Illarion sure does reward winning and seriously punish losing. Remove skill loss resulting from being ghosted. This just discourages PvP. "You got beat? Alright, we are going to force you to spend 4 hours getting back to the point you were before losing. That'll teach you not to enter a fight you can't win." I'm certain that this is a large cause of the anti-PvP mentality that the majority of this community possesses. Of course people are going to do whatever it takes to get ahead, no one wants to waste their time skilling. Item loss is a sensible and perfectly sufficient outcome of being ghosted.

GMs, grow some balls and don't hesitate to ghost people here and there. The only way that people are going to learn that it isn't the end of the world when their character gets beaten, is if they actually get beaten. I always here this talk about "the good old days, when people didn't have a problem (but even enjoyed it) when bad stuff happened to their characters." What's the major difference between then and now? I'm guessing, bad stuff actually happened back then. Today, people freak out when something happens to their character because it is such a rarity. If it was more commonplace, it'd be less of a big deal, and people would learn to accept it.

I'm not saying that the staff are solely to blame for the community attitude, far from it. The players are the ones exploiting. The players are the ones abusing OOC. The players are the ones complaining. If I knew how to influence their attitudes directly, I'd do so. But, as I see it, nothing is going to change while the environment still encourages this type of mindset. The top seems to me the best place to kick off any changes if something is going to be done.
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Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Post by Elijah »

Conflict is somehow regarded as the Satan of Illarion these days. Never in a RP game have I seen conflict be chastised so much. As Grokk said, conflict is the very essence of roleplay. Without it, you have camp fire talks about the color of the other character's hair (or something equally as random). As someone who is usually the center of conflict (and therefore accused of OOCly conspiring to violently destroy everyone's IG lives) I know that conflict is never supported, even if gone about diligently (asking nicely for equally rewarded sides OOCly) and RPed accordingly.

An iron hammer seems to exist to completely snuff out the one thing that makes the wheels of RP turn. Conflict.
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Nalzaxx
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Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Post by Nalzaxx »

I think you are right in saying a lot of it is down to the severity of loosing. It's not that clouding is a rarer event these days...its that it is a thousand times more severe these days. Nevermind 4 hours, a bad clouding can set you back weeks of tedious grinding. Back in the day it wasn't nearly as serious, and so people were more inclined to participate in conflict, didn't care so much about winning, and weren't as sore when they lost.

Sure you had people running back from the cross to keep fighting...but I think there are more elegant solutions to that than what we have currently.

I think it would help to put an end to this us v them mentality that's arisen in the game. Its no longer about having fun RP with battles, its about ghosting the other players so much they get fed up and stop playing. That's a win. That's the sort of environment this creates.

I want an environment where two groups can happily co-exist ((oocly)) and have skirmishes across the map without the heartache that it currently induces. For both sides, even the 'winning' one. Its quite clear that the hour regeneration period after a clouding is there to stop people rushing back into battle too quickly. So why do we need the skill-loss too?

Though having said my piece, Nitram assures me there's nothing that can be done before the VBU anyway, as it's hard coded into the server. Even so, I want to see a shift towards encouraging good behaviour, and creating systems that foster a friendly environment over what we have currently.
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Sir Gnar
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Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Post by Sir Gnar »

~ This thread has gone right back to where it started.


You go down a level because you lost! You don't deserve 100 skill! You are 99, thats not really such a big deal. Even a good day, bad day, is much more important than a single level. I am still uncertain why this seems anything but fair. Maybe if u kept your 99 and just RP'ed and wandered around IG fighting creatures as they come, maps, sparring, or even a real IG battle. You know, living as your char really would if hes really that seasoned of a fighter. Go find your enemies/rivals and fight with them, attempt to retreat if your going to lose. The same players you say can take your skills can give them as well. You would be back to 100 without PG'ing the whole time and sounding like it would ruin your life.


I don't see why anyone thinks you should be able to get to a level and then never lose it, everyone would be maxed in everything eventually. Its a matter of certainty. Count your blessings they don't lower from inactivity.


Also, i'd like to point out that you are suggesting being actually killed IG, should mean nothing for the future, only for a single battle should you be punished. You were killed for heavens sake!

In my opinion you should lose several skills points in one specific area and be prompted with a message "your leg was heavily injured in battle, it will now take time to heal" randomly losing you anywhere from 1 to 10 skills points in an agility based skill. Another, "your eye was struck by debris in the battle, keep the wound clean and you may someday see out of it again" randomly losing anywhere between 1 to 10 skills points in a perception based skill.

Since it would be unfair to actually keep your char dead, i think its best to remember at the least you were heavily maimed. Do you really feel now that there should be no lasting effects of being slaughtered on a battlefield??

The only thing i can agree on is that it would really suck to lose your items and skills to a power outage or something beyond your control. Other than that, you deserve the loss, you lost!!!!
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Athian
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Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Post by Athian »

The reason the death system doesn't work is because the current system has in the past and present been used as a means by which players punish other players, and not always strictly in the in character sense. The ability of one player to reset even partially the effort of another player shouldn't exist in this sort of game. It is true that in the past death was taken so lightly that conflicts would start to break the supposed realities of the game, with people returning from the cross over and over again. I feel like any one aspect of the current death system might have been enough to deal with the issue, but combined they turned into something of a monster.

The current 'death' system is a culmination of one half thought idea laid atop another, It was very much like hot-fixing a problem with another problem. The end result is what we have now. A system in which a few deaths can utterly debilitate your character. These missteps are further accented by crude aspects of other systems such as the current hard nosed skill system and the lack of merchant selling wares (originally a poor mans way of boosting player made and bought items). All these things together have a multitude of effects on how people play the game. The experience of dying is such a miserable thing that people will go to extreme lengths to avoid it. in turn this causes conflict to become highly aggressive, emotionally charged arms races centered around who has the best attributes, the best weapons and armor, the best gemstones and the most knowledge both of in-game systems and ongoing information into he game. The extreme end result is that PK'ing becomes a way to get rid of another player rather then having anything to do with RP.

This stresses players which in turn stresses the staff and soon everyone's got a headache. I hope that this is one of the first things to go with the VBU in all honesty.
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Nalzaxx
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Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Post by Nalzaxx »

@Sir Gnar

Except that isn't a very helpful attitude and it doesn't acheive anything other than pissing players off even more.

You lost, therefore you deserve to have all that time and effort you spent on your character tossed down the drain, isn't an attitude that fosters a heathly co-operation between players. What it does is lead to the situation we have currently, massive metagaming groups that hate each other OOC. We want to encourage and environment that promotes roleplay and enhances relationships between the players, not destroys them. Ghosting is, essentially, and OOC action. Its your way of making another player loose, and in many cases the entire motivation behind clouding someone is to upset them enough that they stop playing.

Hooray for this masterpiece of gameplay.

If players are only subject to penalties on death that keep them from jumping straight back in the fight, and only need them to sit around and RP for a couple of hours, rather than trudging off to spend some hours pging, then everyone wins. The whole concept of having to punish the player for letting their character die is nonsense! It doesn't add anything to the game! Get rid of it for the sake of the gods! And well, if you still want to be severely set back each time you are ghosted, then fine. We will give people a choice. You can either have some temp penalties that wear off with a few hours of roleplay, or you can have several points knocked off your skills. We'll see just how many people opt for the latter then. And we'll also see which group starts to get more involved in co-operative roleplay and organising fun, friendly battles ingame and which group keeps the shitstorm of broken hearts and hatred that we have now.

We really need to stop punishing people for playing Illarion.
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Achae Eanstray
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Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Post by Achae Eanstray »

Nalzaxx wrote:.........
Though having said my piece, Nitram assures me there's nothing that can be done before the VBU anyway, as it's hard coded into the server. Even so, I want to see a shift towards encouraging good behaviour, and creating systems that foster a friendly environment over what we have currently.
Totally agree with you @Nalzaxx, I actually think the ooc conflict would be reduced considerably without the double punishment of the system. Am hoping as @Athian said, things will be changed for the better the coming VBU. Those that have any ulterior motive for PKing would find themselves with a lack of RP and a few bored yawns. Those that wish to add excitement to the game would accomplish their goals as there would be less ooc resentment. I remember when it used to be exciting for Achae to go to Trolls Bane never knowing what would happen but knowing there would be some nice RP from whomever she met. The attitude of caution, hesitancy along with an empty town frequently, at least when one of my chars go, is very disappointing.
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Sir Gnar
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Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Post by Sir Gnar »

Wow, well i have no hate for any player OOC. We all have the fact that we like this game in common. Its not a huge community so i agree we should all be cool with eachother, in the scope of games with a much higher player base, we are more like a close-knit family. I had no idea everyone hated eachother, i really don't believe that either.

Slug hasn't clouded anyone in probably 6 active months but i like the fact that he reserves the right to kill and steal for whatever IG reasoning. But you miss my point when i asked why does someone need to PG back up to to 100 skill again? Stay at 99 and keep RP'ing as you have and eventually and casually you will achieve 100 again. Slug has mastered his swords, now he will carry a different back up weapon to use when it will benefit his skill in the secondary weapon. He does this leisurely and it seems to actually increase faster, mentally of course. PG'ing is like watching a clock, it will seem like forever. Also, i'd love to see a vote on how many players would want the ability to PK taken away. I for one would miss you all as i quit the game & downloaded 'the sims', same game then, just a different era, but at least i could use building tools there :) Without anger or dissappointment of being clouded/defeated in battle, where would the passion be to actually get more involved and care about what just happened?


~ Just a little something that popped into my head as i was reading what you few wrote :P


Principal: Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Billy Madison: Okay, a simple "wrong" would've done just fine.
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Alli Zelos
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Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Post by Alli Zelos »

I'd disagree with that ending "quote" you have. Sometimes, it takes a complete tearing down of the problem to actually get to its heart. And, so far, the discussion's led to some very interesting thoughts--for me, if for no one else. I'd add more, but anything I'd have to say has already been said.

In any case, I used to be a big supporter of the heavier penalties for "death." But, honestly... Can't we just RP it better? Do we need the engine to restrict your character to what you should already be doing? This IS a role playing game, after all. If you can't play the role of your character, why play the game at all?
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Estralis Seborian
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Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Just to toss in some words here:

Me and most GMs and core developers would sign Grokk's essay immediatly. The attitude of the past - to pull up weeds instead of sowing good seeds - is gone. But it will take a while before the change in conduct shows effects.

The introduction of the community managers was a first step and I just hope that the recent positive initiatives continue while the mentioned negative initiatives are ceased.
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Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Post by Pendar »

I am aware I have not really added to the topic of conflict guidelines instead, just hammered on about mechanics. In the time between my first post in this topic and this one I have had sometime to get back in touch with the game and truly remember the issues IC and OOC that went with conflict. I also considered that without some form of penalty IG conflicts can become an unending cycle. At first glance I was heavily in favour of no skill loss until I thought it through and realized the same heroes would be attacking the villains and same villains attacking the town, endlessly. Without some system that separates a winner from a loser the pvp aspect of conflict becomes meaningless. However at the moment it feels nearly punitive as many have stated.

The best solution would of course be a system that empowers players to hand out killing blows if they feel it is warranted. This would enable high skilled characters to engage in conflict with anyone without it being a punishment, if you knock some one out/down, rp with them, take their gold and they get to carry on minus skills lost? Well everyone is going to feel more positive about this. It would also remove a bunch of other old annoyances, death by duelling, accidentally killing that poor smith because they were in the door way and so on. The current health hits zero and skills are lost system is not very rp friendly.

If the coding for the above is impractical at this time, then put it all on a timer. Skills are only lost if you die three times within 24 hours in game. This can be expressed via text warnings.
First visit to the cross = You return feeling only slightly weaker.
Second visit= It was hard to return this time you feel greatly weakened.
Third time= You nearly did not make it back you feel you have lost some of your old strength. (at this point skills are lost)

After eight hours in game = Your feel your spirit growing stronger, You feel like your old self again, You no longer feel as if death has a grasp on you.

What ever those messages are, if by killing my enemy I could buy eight or sixteen hours in game piece and quiet or conversely time to hatch my evil plan. Well that is a victory, a victory that lets players decide if they will risk their skills and a pat on the back to those who choose to do so.

The above timer system would also stop players losing skills to lag and bugs with NPC's something I was always very against in game. I go hunting to enjoy playing the game, not be punished for a disconnection. It also encourages role playing being wounded or recovering. The above would also free gms up to spawn more monsters as currently a GM is made a villain if they miss calculate the spawns during a quest. Frankly remove skill loss from npcs all together the hour cool down is plenty control enough on hunting and pging, I feel.

Item loss has never bothered me much in a role play setting, however if the balance has skewed to the point where you must have a lighting magic sword because a steel sword is just so inferior, then that is a separate balance issue which needs to be addressed separately.

Now to return to the actual topic a guide to handling conflict in game, that's far harder. I doubt the issues have changed much since I was very active here. Its never easy to lay down guidelines for conflicts each are unique and all of them have two sides. However there is always the old its just a game, role play and enjoy preach to fall back on.

1. Illarion is a constantly moving world that flourishes through player initiatives and change. Without conflicts the world will stagnate and with it your character and story as much as strong characters are vital so is loss, victory and challenges. Remember we are here to create a story not a chat simulation.
2. We are all on the same side at the end of the day, your worst enemy in character is also the greatest asset to your characters story. Keeping this in mind be mindful of fairness, try allowing an enemy to escape, attempt to role play instead of just clouding your adversary. Keeping in the spirit of the game instead of just throwing your skills around will earn you respect from your fellow players and often cause new avenues of role play to flourish.
3. Winning and losing is defined as much by who has fun as who is victorious.
4. Conflict happens and it should be enjoyed, however it is best enjoyed with communication. Its hardly fun or particularly sporting to wait until all the guards are gone to siege a town or try and attack a group at a time when most of its players are offline.
5. Roll with it, your bad day in Illarion is tomorrows tavern tale or camp side story. The worst parts of today will bind you to characters tomorrow and have enriched your story and given you a real, concrete part in the game world. Make the best of it ;)


If we could all maintain those three ideas and adhere to them the entire attitude toward conflict would change. Most of the best role play I have had has been with an enemy who is also a great role player, if you rely on skills before role playing you will stomp out most great stories before they begin.
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Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Post by Grokk »

Pendar wrote:The best solution would of course be a system that empowers players to hand out killing blows if they feel it is warranted. This would enable high skilled characters to engage in conflict with anyone without it being a punishment, if you knock some one out/down, rp with them, take their gold and they get to carry on minus skills lost? Well everyone is going to feel more positive about this. It would also remove a bunch of other old annoyances, death by duelling, accidentally killing that poor smith because they were in the door way and so on.
This system is, for all practical purposes, already present. You win a (melee) combat, your opponent is knocked back, you then have the choice as to whether or not to ghost them. But it doesn't achieve what you want it to.

The problem is with the community attitude, not with some need for a new technical game mechanic to force people to behave in a particular way. The above system is basically saying to players, "Here, you choose whether or not this other player's character loses any skill. You choose whether to permanently deprive them of those invested hours." And of course it fails. The person whose character was killed takes on the role of victim, sometimes getting legitimately upset or angry OOC. That shouldn't be happening. The person whose character did the killing looks like they are griefing, deliberately choosing to set the other player back and put them at a disadvantage. Sometimes, sadly, this is true.

It's just a system that promotes the issue of OOC hostility that we have. In a game like Illarion, we should be trying to avoid punishing players for their characters' failures. This seems to be what some people like Sir Gnar are failing to grasp. Define that border between yourself and your character. It is your character 'winning', not you. (I'd add a witty Charlie Sheen remark here if were I more clever.) In many conflicts, there is going to be a 'loser'. Someone has to be prepared to play that role. The character who loses should face consequences, absolutely. But the consequences shouldn't disproportionately affect the person playing them. Dropping from 100 tactics to 98 means almost nothing to the character. For the player, it means losing countless hours of training. With this, you are just punishing the player and reaffirming the idea that losing is bad. Eventually, you get to the point we are at now, where nobody wants to take on the role of the loser, and people will go to extreme lengths to avoid doing so.
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Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Post by Pendar »

Grokk wrote:This system is, for all practical purposes, already present. You win a (melee) combat, your opponent is knocked back, you then have the choice as to whether or not to ghost them. But it doesn't achieve what you want it to.
Nice to know, I am way behind on how the system works these days and did not notice it when playing lately but good to know it is there.

One thing I have noticed is that Illarion as a community is very isolationist OOC people preferring to keep to msn messenger over attending a community chat room. I am sure this counts down on a lot of day to day drama but also makes people more prone to forming perceived teams. Even if our characters are mortal enemies if I have just been having a laugh with you as a person I am less likely to feel aggrieved by your characters actions.Which poses an interesting challenge, how to improve community relations in a community that only interacts in small pockets.

The only thing I am sure of is that every conflict I played through in Illarion that ended up enjoyable for most parties were those spear headed by people who loved role play. As opposed to those involving people who were trying to hold onto some perceived advantage or comfort zone for their characters. It is so much about how people approach these things.
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