RP conflicts and Guidelines

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:05 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Just to insert a concurrent opinion...the skill loss in death has little to do with the char, the slight weakness felt only roleplayed rarely and everything to do with the PO. Will this skill loss actually effect better RP and fear of dying in the char? Comparing this game to others played I have not seen any difference in the roleplay of injury nor hesitancy to jump into the fray. To use the skill loss to affect better roleplay as a sort of punishment for the PO accomplishes nothing but more PG, disappointment and discouragement in the game play.

Numerous times I have heard from players they are not joining so and so quest due to not wanting their chars to be ghosted. Extending the time after ghosting of the "healing" of the char making it an in game time only encourages the roleplay desired and discourages running right back into whatever fight there is. I think POs would be less concerned oocly about the loss of loot though having an "insurance policy" if can be scripted on certain items would also be a nice money sink.

Separate places to PvP wouldn't have to be considered if there was no skill loss , still having reservations about separate PvP areas:
Will other PO's mix oocly and ig knowing they won't be attacked so affect indifference if someone like Dain or Retlak show up in a non PvP town?
Will that take some of the excitement from the game?
Will all but a few PO's avoid the PvP areas, or maybe constantly stay there separating chars and players more?

Evil vs Good: I actually don't think there is a pure evil or pure good char. There are lawbreakers and those that follow the rules of the town. There are those that rebel and those that quietly do their work. Most chars if around long enough tend to fit in the middle vacillating occasionally one way or another depending on the game environment and char background. There are those that are popular for the moment and those out of favor. Reading the gods and goddesses even the worst don't appear pure evil and none seem pure good which I like about the game.

To answer @Estralis here is one idea of fine tuneing the information on roleplaying an "evil" character hopefully others will chime in with their thoughts also:

Lawbreakers:
If roleplaying a murderer, thief, kidnapper,trickster or another form of lawbreaker or "evil" character, the risk of getting caught or killed is high and the roleplay more difficult. Your character should have a background story and "history" that makes him/her have a motive for their actions which are consistently followed in the game environment. This could be anything from a bad childhood to loss of a loved one, the more imaginative the better. Truely playing an evil character is a life style involving much more finesse then simple PKing. Stealing secrets from another, lulling others astray, tricking some out of their hard earned coin are all possible goals your character may have and it is up to you to decide the "why" and be consistent in your goals for that character including deciding what that character will and won't be able to do all within the rules of the game.

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Post by Pyrrho » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:50 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Lawbreakers:
If roleplaying a murderer, thief, kidnapper,trickster or another form of lawbreaker or "evil" character, the risk of getting caught or killed is high and the roleplay more difficult. Your character should have a background story and "history" that makes him/her have a motive for their actions which are consistently followed in the game environment. This could be anything from a bad childhood to loss of a loved one, the more imaginative the better. Truely playing an evil character is a life style involving much more finesse then simple PKing. Stealing secrets from another, lulling others astray, tricking some out of their hard earned coin are all possible goals your character may have and it is up to you to decide the "why" and be consistent in your goals for that character including deciding what that character will and won't be able to do all within the rules of the game.
You can always play an evil character that never does evil stuff

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Post by Piotnik » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:54 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Just translations of (PO)Tialdin's posts:
Tialdin wrote: Just like Athian has written, there is no 'good' nor 'evil'.
Both notions are extremely subjective.

So what are we talking about?

We talk about criminals - so people who break law(s).
I think we can simply make the agreement, that this implies all offences which carry community services, penalties or prison sentences in real life.

For just that reason I would change the heading from "Evil Guys" to "Law-breaker" or add a passage to the game rules (not the RPG guide!).

Just to sketch out such a new rule:
Proposal:

Law-breaker

Obey the laws or live with the consequences. In Illarion several governments have established themselves and evolved successfully.
There are different laws legislated by these governments for their current spheres of influence, which make certain acts punishable. If your character breaks one of these laws, he/she can be punished for this. Some sentences are "executed" directly by the game engine, some by role play. This punishment is part of the role play and the simulation of an medieval-like society. Even if it seems to be an unjust and despotic regime.

On this point your self-determination over your character is restricted so possibly you have to play through unpleasant situations.
Solely in the case of a death sentence (yes, this can happen to your character in the medieval-like world of Illarion) you can determine your characters destiny and contradict a deletion of your character.
If a penalty seems too strict to you, just turn to the local government and only if this is pointless contact a CM or GM.

There is just a simple rule - like in real life:
If they do not catch you, you can not be sentenced. But otherwise, you have to live with the sentence.
Repeated circumvention of sentences can be punished by GMs as breach of the rules of course.
Tialdin wrote: To another point of this discussion: Which kinds of punishment are practical or rather appropriate at all?
According to some statements of the devs, the VBU will also provide an in-game system for punishments.

If I am not mistaken, there were many single proposals on this subject, but they were never been suggested summarized.
Some well known are:
Fines, prison sentence and banishment.

Prison and banishment are too damaging for role play.
Why should a PO log in with a character who is in prison? It's dead boring there!
And the characer can easily serve his/her term of imprisonment logged-off.

So it seems to make sense to develop other, less RP-damaging punishment.

Just some ideas:

Hopples:
- agility will be reduced for a time

Handcuffs (without plush) for one or both hands:
- on one hand: one hand of the character will be blocked, so he/she is unbable to fight or work with weapons/items in both hands (or two-handed weapons/items)
- on both hands: the caracter is note able to fight and and work with weapons/items for a time, but can carry such stuff

Hard labor:
- the character has to perform a task (for example: collect some specified items and bring them to a special NPC or another char)
- there were different variants to this, so e.g. a char has to work in a mine until he/she has delivered a certain amount of ore

________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Maybe there are more ideas for rp-friendly punishment of crimes...
Hope the translations were readable.. :)

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Post by Alexander Knight » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:03 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Tialdin wrote: Just like Athian has written, there is no 'good' nor 'evil'.
Both notions are extremely subjective.

So what are we talking about?

We talk about criminals - so people who break law(s).
I think we can simply make the agreement, that this implies all offences which carry community services, penalties or prison sentences in real life.

For just that reason I would change the heading from "Evil Guys" to "Law-breaker" or add a passage to the game rules (not the RPG guide!).

Just to sketch out such a new rule:
Proposal:

Law-breaker

Obey the laws or live with the consequences. In Illarion several governments have established themselves and evolved successfully.
There are different laws legislated by these governments for their current spheres of influence, which make certain acts punishable. If your character breaks one of these laws, he/she can be punished for this. Some sentences are "executed" directly by the game engine, some by role play. This punishment is part of the role play and the simulation of an medieval-like society. Even if it seems to be an unjust and despotic regime.

On this point your self-determination over your character is restricted so possibly you have to play through unpleasant situations.
Solely in the case of a death sentence (yes, this can happen to your character in the medieval-like world of Illarion) you can determine your characters destiny and contradict a deletion of your character.
If a penalty seems too strict to you, just turn to the local government and only if this is pointless contact a CM or GM.

There is just a simple rule - like in real life:
If they do not catch you, you can not be sentenced. But otherwise, you have to live with the sentence.
Repeated circumvention of sentences can be punished by GMs as breach of the rules of course.
Tialdin wrote: To another point of this discussion: Which kinds of punishment are practical or rather appropriate at all?
According to some statements of the devs, the VBU will also provide an in-game system for punishments.

If I am not mistaken, there were many single proposals on this subject, but they were never been suggested summarized.
Some well known are:
Fines, prison sentence and banishment.

Prison and banishment are too damaging for role play.
Why should a PO log in with a character who is in prison? It's dead boring there!
And the characer can easily serve his/her term of imprisonment logged-off.

So it seems to make sense to develop other, less RP-damaging punishment.

Just some ideas:

Hopples:
- agility will be reduced for a time

Handcuffs (without plush) for one or both hands:
- on one hand: one hand of the character will be blocked, so he/she is unbable to fight or work with weapons/items in both hands (or two-handed weapons/items)
- on both hands: the caracter is note able to fight and and work with weapons/items for a time, but can carry such stuff

Hard labor:
- the character has to perform a task (for example: collect some specified items and bring them to a special NPC or another char)
- there were different variants to this, so e.g. a char has to work in a mine until he/she has delivered a certain amount of ore

________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Maybe there are more ideas for rp-friendly punishment of crimes...
Well RP hard labour is the best one I think. Or work out if the char minds being imprisoned. I think you'll find 90% dont

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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:16 am

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

la la la.

Should not comment after beers.
Last edited by Mr. Cromwell on Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Kaidan Firestone » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:42 am

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Wow.

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Post by Copper Dragon » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:33 am

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Here is my two copper.
First, I agree with the more RP friendly options for punishment of "Law Breakers." The hard labor is great. It gives people the chance to interact and still serve as an example of what happens when you do break a law. A reasonable time limit can be set with stated penilties for not completing the contract. I saw this in action with another character and nearly laughed my self silly because i was impressed with the idea. Granted the crime helped to start the laugh. The handcuffs possibly could be scripted with a IG time clock so you can't just log out and have the clock run. Now I do have questions as to how banishment is RP damaging. A short explanation would help but there is no need to flame. You can't go in one city or two if you get a bit happy. Thats (and this is generous) 5% of the map. Thats still 95% you can cause trouble in. Hunt, scare the stuffing out of some one, tempt the ban, taunt the guard just outside the city, Go in another city and get kicked out there, get drunk, craft. Do something but don't sit on your thumb and boo hoo. Prision, yes, when the town is quiet prison can be a pita. But remember when Altrix was in jail. Prison was the place to be. I personally had more great RP there because my character felt he was wronged and showed support. I could have just as easily stood outside the bars and taunted the prisioners. Like an idea, RP is 5% inspiration, 95% persperation. If it isn't happening, Make it happen. The random apple fight or fish fight that every body can join in. Mystery noises from some where. Drunken sing alongs. The drunker you are, the worse the singing. Thanks to smuggled beer in the jail?
Yea, I know a bit off topic but hey.

And now for my second copper. Laws and oaths are different. One is for people to protect them (don't get me started on that one)and one is from a person to a diety. Give Malachun "the finger" and see who smacks you around. Now granted you have to catch the right GM at the right time but you never know. And on that side note, I thought silver brand was the collective(hairy) whores of the entire game world. Right below orcs.

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Post by Lennier » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:18 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Sadly I have no time to read the whole topic. But in experience of the last 'conflict' between Silverbrand/Varshikar against the Temple/Troll's Bane (that only was cruel) I am in strong belief that we need rules of how to play out real conflicts and wars.

My opinion is, that conflicts between guilds and settlements should not played out within only single event.

- wars have to be declared public
- all involved players should be in knowlegde about the goals of both parties,
- all involved player should be in knowlegde about the consequences in case of losing
- the conflict should be spreaded about maybe at least 3 events (announced as official player-quests), that must be fought out
- the date of such events has to be found in agreement for members of both parties (moderation by GM)
- the events should have a max. distance to each other of 1 week (so 3 weeks at least in total)
- to win the war your party need success in 2 events in row
- during the war minor fights beside of the official events have no influence
- territorial authority of the parties have to be accepted... noone enters the town of the enemy in case of war


Only some ideas.

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Post by Respen » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:11 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

On the original topic:

Regarding the editing of the RPG Guide's Evil Guys section, I like HolyKnight's proposal. I also would prefer to replace instances of "evil guys" with "antagonists" like HolyKnight suggested.

In my opinion, the players of antagonist characters should be prepared to be treated in-game according to their character's actions. I read through the rules and RP Guide just a bit ago, and it is stated multiple times that known antagonist characters should not expect to be able to interact peacefully/normally with protagonist characters. For example, it makes zero sense for a known murderer to be accepted to a relaxing fireside chat with other characters in the middle of a lawful town. If the players of antagonist characters desire to participate in such activities, they should make a protagonist/peaceful character for that purpose.

Maybe this should be made more clear in the rules and RP Guide?
Nomos wrote:What would your expectation be from other players if you played a biblical concept of evil dominant char?
I would fully expect the character to be an outcast from society. I would expect all "good"/lawful characters to view my character with hate/revulsion/pity/fear or other negative emotions. I would expect the "good"/lawful characters to try to imprison, exile, or kill my character whenever their paths cross my characters'.

From other players, I (the player) would expect to be treated with respect and decency. I would not object to being treated nicely on account of playing a role for their characters to oppose. ;)
Nomos wrote:What would you as a player expect from interaction with a biblical concept of evil dominant char?
Any "good"/lawful characters of mine would have varying reactions, but formost among them would be some kind of negative emotion to the presence of an "evil" character. I would expect the "evil" character to peform actions that encourage the formation of negative emotions in my characters. I would fully expect the "evil" character to try to manipulate my characters for their own nefarious ends, whether they are aware of it or not. I would also expect from some "evil" characters an attempt to kill my characters, as long as there is at least some RP leading up to it.
Kaidan Firestone wrote:Death needs to and should have consequences.
I fully agree with this statement. I recently read an article discussing death in video games that made a very interesting point: death in video games ultimately amounts to time loss for the player, that's it. (link to article for those interested. Warning! The article's author is quite vulgar at times.)

So if time loss is the ultimate penalty for death, why not simplify things and make that the engine-supported penalty. This could be done through disabling log in of that particular character for the specified time, keeping the character a ghost for the specified time, or one of the ideas discussed above. I agree with some of the others that skill loss is not the best way to handle this.
Athian wrote:Losing items hurts because currently anything good is difficult to attain.
This is always something that has really bothered me with RPGs (MMO or single-player), the importance placed upon items. With some games, the items the character has is more important than the character itself. I had thought that this was not the case with Illarion, but from that statement I see that it is true after all for Illarion.

I can understand the desire to have powerful, rare items, but the second they become available to everyone (no matter how much grinding is required) is the second they lose much of their purpose. It often becomes the case that in order to be competitive at all in PvP, one must have the rare items. This is what I think breaks many games.

Honestly, in my opinion, I would rather that all items have only minor differences from others of the same type. Otherwise you have a broken situation where only the top-tier items are of any use, causing all lesser items to become worthless. (the same could be said regarding low vs. high level skills, but that is another topic for another day) That is bad for crafters and the economy of a game, not only the combat parts.

If rare items are desired, then they should be truely rare, not just hard to get. As an example, there could be an incredibly difficult monster that is a "boss" of sorts. Once killed, it could drop a couple of these rare items. However, it does not respawn for others to come and kill. Essentially a "one-of-a-kind" encounter that gives truely "one-of-a-kind" rare items.

There would then be meaning to being the slayer of so-and-so monster. It would likely have to be done through periodic GM-run quests, but it seems that the GMs are active enough to support something like this. I could be wrong though.

In either case, all items should be dropped upon character death. If you are truely concerned with keeping your important items, you are likely to be much more careful then. ;)

If necessary though, I would not be opposed to some kind of item insurance, but only for the rare items. Maybe it could be that they have bonded to your soul or something. Once "bonded" though, they are permanently attached to the character, unable to be removed without destroying them. Maybe then they could only be destroyed through a special quest.

I am starting to just spew ideas now, so I will stop here. :wink:

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Post by Athian » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:55 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

@Repsen

Items simply need more variance. a small wooden sheild should have some perks that a large metal one should not. But just as in real life there are always going to be some materials and items that are all around better then others. a small steel shield will provide more competent defense then a wooden one.

Right now the problem with rare items i see is that most items still retain a GM only status because no monster drops them, this will be fixed during the VBU when the drops get an overhaul. The other problem is that right now Time>effort=reward due to low drop rates on many monsters. Effort needs to equal reward, not just time.

Example: our Black dragon spawn drops some great items, our Demon skeletion-mage also drops some nice items.

The black dragon is a monster that 100 mages with maxed attributes and skills could never kill (literally)even if they attacked it all at once. It would kill whole groups of warriors until enough combined damage MIGHT be done to slay it. Basically it takes an army to kill it. The black dragon drops superior items to the demon skeletial mage. Lets says he drops a lvl 4 magical amethyst (made up drop ^^) but drops it at a rate of 1% (actual drop rate for some of his items.) He spawns once every few hours after being slain.

Demon skeletal mage, is an easily killed monster with an average skilled mage above average skill warrior or combination of the two with higher or lower skills. It drops level 1 amethysts at a rate of 1%, and spawns frequently.

There is more value in fighting the demon skeletal mages for hours then there is in risking death to fight the black dragon once, EVER. Thus the Effort of fighting the black dragon when you consider how easily it can kill you and obliterate skills and items that you needed to even stand a chance of defeating it.

This i hope will also be fixed with the VBU

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Post by Piotnik » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:51 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Well, I think respawn periods, <time effort> / <item reward> - ratios, attributes of weapons and item drop rates are interesting subjects of discussion for some.. specific.. players. But this is not the topic of this thread. :?
So back to RP conflicts and Guidelines, guys. Please.

Lennier posted some interesting notes:
Lennier wrote:- wars have to be declared public
- all involved players should be in knowlegde about the goals of both parties,
- all involved player should be in knowlegde about the consequences in case of losing
- the conflict should be spreaded about maybe at least 3 events (announced as official player-quests), that must be fought out
- the date of such events has to be found in agreement for members of both parties (moderation by GM)
- the events should have a max. distance to each other of 1 week (so 3 weeks at least in total)
- to win the war your party need success in 2 events in row
- during the war minor fights beside of the official events have no influence
- territorial authority of the parties have to be accepted... noone enters the town of the enemy in case of war
On principle these "rules" make sense to me as an OOC gentleman's agreement (or rather lady's agreement, so I don't want to discriminate ;)).
Of course one important (and difficult) condition would be the strict seperation between OOC and character knowledge.
So everyone's character should not know in game what to expect on the next day of the conflict, in the next battle or in the event of defeat.
Even if the PO knows these things relly well from OOC informations.

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Post by Athian » Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:10 am

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Piotnik wrote:Well, I think respawn periods, <time effort> / <item reward> - ratios, attributes of weapons and item drop rates are interesting subjects of discussion for some.. specific.. players. But this is not the topic of this thread. :?
So back to RP conflicts and Guidelines, guys.Please
It came up in topic, and was addressed, there is no problem with this as long as it doesn't take over the topic, at which point i can just split it again :wink: .

And yes its difficult to enforce ooc and ig separations. I don't expect there to be a large scale war everyday however, so even if it is difficult it could be done on a case by case basis, with members of the staff monitoring. Truth be told its quite difficult to keep ooc out of anything, we can only trust our community to have a spirit of fair play and correct it when they step heavily out of bounds. Definitely we could use some rules of engagement for wars, we just have to not give up on them because they are 'hard'.

what would you propose Poitnik or anyone for alternative rules of engagement?

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Post by Raina Narethil » Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:57 am

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

If your asking for rules of war, why not start with some quick basics and build from there.

1. Have a signup thread where people who feel like taking part can place their characters name. This way it cuts down on any hurt feeling say if jimbob jones comes in and wipes out a pack of Druid players not wanting to take part.

2. Have safe zones for where people can go to get out the war, we have many non fighter types giving them a places they can go and be safe to resume their life either peacefully or in an effort to help the war by supplying craft good. (( the latter part being like a gun runner in the modern days.))

3. Rp fights when possible so that new players can come in fresh off the boats and take part, and don't have to be Uber mage or warrior, use the game engine only as a last resort or if the sides are evenly matched. (( use virtual dice to decide if someone is hurt or not. * truth be told this would take honesty from both fighting* I had the great pleasure of Rping a few fights with the Evil Mister Blue. They can be quite fun if done right. ))

4. ALWAYS and I mean Always ask before you attack someone either in Irc, Dove or a quick occ whisper to make sure it is alright to start or escalate a situation. (( Mister Blue used that occ whisper to ask if I was alright with the fight and to see if I wished to continue it.. I have the up most respect for that PO. for doing that and would have no problems should trouble start between our characters again.))

5. Cooperation from both sides of the war, know that one side will not always win, nor lose. If the battle is one sided make a compromise and work to make the situation better. Allow ambushes to take some of the stronger warriors or mages hostages or find other ways to make the sides even.

EDITED Sorry forgot the most important one of all.

6. Show each other Respect.

I have seen a lot in my time here and one thing that I see that kills any fun or any willingness to enter quest or wars the like is what I just mentioned. I don't blame or flame anyone it is just what I seen and my opinion. I seen a lot of good quest as well.

Just my two silvers because I ran out of coppers.

Raina.
Last edited by Raina Narethil on Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Respen » Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:02 am

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

I think that Lennier definitely had some interesting points, however, I feel that this whole topic is already covered in the rules and RP Guide on the main site. It is mentioned many times that players (not characters) need to work together for their mutual enjoyment, especially when conflict takes place between their characters.

The rules are very clear, at least to me, and even before you get into the sub-categories of the rules you see this one, in bold:
Rules Page wrote:The most important principle in Illarion though is:

We play with, not against each other.
This sentiment goes on to be repeated, in a couple different ways, throughout the rules and RP Guide. If there are problems related to this, then people are breaking the rules and corrective action should be taken by the game staff. There is no sense having rules if they are not going to be enforced. Otherwise, you will start to have all sorts of undesired behavior from players ruining the atmosphere.

That is my view on things. I probably seem quite harsh, but my patience with players with poor attitudes has lessened greatly as of late. ;)

In the interests of players working together though, I think Lennier's guidelines for wars between guilds and settlements sound good. The only one I would change would be the following:
Lennier wrote:- to win the war your party need success in 2 events in row
I would change that to this:
- to win the war a guild/settlement has to succeed in 2 out of 3 events
I think having to succeed twice in a row is a bit too much.

On another note, punishment for the lawbreakers of a settlement, as discussed earlier, should entirely be between the players involved. Players of criminals should work with the settlement to determine their punishment if they do not agree with the settlement's punishments. The players of criminals and the settlement players should be able to come to an agreement.

Honestly, the manual labor thing sounds like an excellent punishment for most crimes. I really see little reason for the player of a criminal to not cooperate, provided the settlement is reasonable about the term of the punishment and the punishment absolves the character of the crime. Of course, the character will still have a bad reputation because of the crime.

If the players of criminals will not cooperate, which by the server rules they should, then the settlement is forced to resort to engine-supported methods to punish the criminal character (likely "clouding"). If the players of the criminals persist in causing OOC trouble, then it is likely that a member of the staff (likely GM) needs to intervene. Like I said, enforce the rules you have.

I will refrain from discussing more about items. Maybe I will take it to PMs since only the two of us were discussing it.

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Post by Chirparoo » Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:15 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

I've died so many times I've lost count. Every time though it's been an opportunity to engage with others and I've enjoyed it.

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Post by Fianna Heneghan » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:31 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

I recently had a RL "opportunity" to participate in a court trial. Not a fun event under any circumstances but something from that experience translates very nicely to Illarion and RP conflicts.

In a trial there is a defendant and a plaintiff. Consider these two as Illarion characters.
There are also attorneys on both sides. Consider these as Illarion players.

While in a trial there is a winner and a loser, the attorneys work together frequently and demonstrate respect and admiration for one another. Of course they plan ahead and aim to win, but they accept losing gracefully and don't take it personally - not even the ones that only get paid for a victory.

If we as players could view ourselves as simply representing our characters in a conflict and still be able to shake hands and walk away friends, this would be ideal. The 'niche' communication that someone mentioned makes this more difficult as it does lend itself to an 'us against them' feeling for most players. Frequent, open and honest communication is important from both sides of a conflict. The fun of the game can be greatly enriched by conflict, but the fun is instantly destroyed when one or both sides refuse to participate in a discussion or are oocly dishonest. A quick ooc check on the other person is a great idea when something erupts spontaneously in game. This can alleviate a lot of confusion and prevent hurt feelings. For a larger plot that requires planning and discussion within a 'niche' communication, getting permission ahead of time from the other players is ideal.

Characters playing to win is fine. A player playing to win is missing the point.

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Post by Kaidan Firestone » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:08 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

I think we all agree that some form of OOC rules should be established before a settlement on settlement/guild on settlement/guild on guild war. However there shouldn't so much metagaming involved as some people have suggested here. Listing names of fighters/warriors on either side is totally unwarranted, I believe someone mentioned that earlier (i could have just imagined that).

During an IG war there shouldn't be any OOC designated safe zone. That is something that can be solved ingame. There are plenty of places on the map that will generally remain neutral, if it is a island wide war then there are a few settlements that are pretty much deserted for the less combat inclined characters to inhabit.

Organizing OOC "roleplay" fights seems a bit silly. I haven't spent hundreds of hours training my fighting character to allow him to lose to some random character another person made last week, roleplay or not. This game has a fighting system and skill system for a reason. If you don't use that system, then you are pretty much insulting the devs who spent years building that system to be used, not to be ignored. Of course that doesn't mean roleplay fights can't exist or happen, but I wouldn't see a reason to roleplay a fight when there is a system for fighting.

I think Lennier's outline is the most usable template. Not every war should/will be the same as the other. There should be some basic agreements that the GMs enforce. Every event should be done at a time and day that works for the most people, despite Djironnyma's constant defense, the timing of the "Alliance" attack was absurd for the mostly American templars. Generally speaking I think the bulk of us agree that those sort of events should be held on the weekends. There should be a definitive agreement on what must happen for either side to lose, but that is something the leaders of either side agree to themselves via PM and then they can post it in the general forum for everyone to see. And there MUST be agreed upon punishments for losing. This can obviously vary.

It should also be noted that some rules need to be bent out of fairness, for example the Temple couldn't dream of ever defeating "the Alliance" in an open fight. When we are talking about a 5-7 person team vs. a 20-30 person team we can't expect the smaller team to agree that winning in the open battlefield "events" is the only way to win the war. That sort of thing should be worked out by the leaders of either side.

I also want to bring back up Athian's idea about buying an army. It'd be nice to be able to afford an army and would be fun for most people. Prices do be determined obviously, but I don't see why a GM wouldn't be able to log in and spawn X amount of a certain monster, do a few server wide messages "Boats arrive on the shores near Varshikar, wild looking men carrying torches and axes come screaming and yelling into the town" etc. Of course it should be fairly expensive as it'd be something generally reserved for settlements and not for individuals (though some individuals are as wealthy as settlements). It'd be a great money sink, for sure. Also would need to limit what exactly you can buy and it'd need to be reasonable as far as roleplay is concerned. For example you wouldn't be able to buy the loyalty of a demon/rotworm/demonlich. But Drow, elves, dwarves, humans, etc would be fair game and be varying prices.

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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:24 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Good discussion. However, I would like to add one more thing to Kaidan's list as mentioned previously by Athian: All participating sides need to be fair game for acts of war. This means that in the bane vs. others example, locked doors and gates of Silverbrand and Kumdah are opened for the duration of the conflict to allow attacks on these groups as well. It can never be fair if one side can hide their civilians inside a GM-only-breachable bunker, while other side risks constant harassment. It's gotta be an equal opportunity conflict, and not one where anyone can turtle up as long as their own settlement and player base are exclusive enough. Completely wrong-headed situation.

In order to prevent abuse of the open doors policy, I would say that you could place a minimum amount of attackers rule, meaning that less than 3 people cannot enter walled and gated settlements during the war. This to prevent every strong character just randomly walking in on a whim and killing everyone inside while there are no strong opposing players online. Violators would risk becoming involuntary prisoners of war.

Also, what the GM's need to do is to make clear the results which may come from the declaration of war to both sides.

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Post by Alexander Knight » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:47 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Kaidan Firestone wrote:Organizing OOC "roleplay" fights seems a bit silly. I haven't spent hundreds of hours training my fighting character to allow him to lose to some random character another person made last week, roleplay or not.
See, why not? I've done this quite a few times with new and old chars (obviously asking OOC if they mind) and it's proven to be more fun imho. Thats not to say that it suits everyone.
Picture this, a new player comes IG and tries to RP. He's decided that he is going to be a moshran follower.
He meets a maxed fighter and after a argument with a few heated words they fight. -2 hits later- new chars ghosted.
Insted of an good 15 min fight where both sides can RP their strengths and weaknesses. (The way I tend to do it, is that after every sucsessful blow then ctrl+click for 1 hit.)
Kaidan Firestone wrote:I also want to bring back up Athian's idea about buying an army. It'd be nice to be able to afford an army and would be fun for most people. Prices do be determined obviously, but I don't see why a GM wouldn't be able to log in and spawn X amount of a certain monster, do a few server wide messages "Boats arrive on the shores near Varshikar, wild looking men carrying torches and axes come screaming and yelling into the town" etc. Of course it should be fairly expensive as it'd be something generally reserved for settlements and not for individuals (though some individuals are as wealthy as settlements). It'd be a great money sink, for sure. Also would need to limit what exactly you can buy and it'd need to be reasonable as far as roleplay is concerned. For example you wouldn't be able to buy the loyalty of a demon/rotworm/demonlich. But Drow, elves, dwarves, humans, etc would be fair game and be varying prices.
Love the idea. Also would like different strengths for different prices.
The only problem would be that the non fighting chars would then moan OOC that TB or Varshikar is being taken over and they have nowhere to Cybe-I mean RP.
Also from a technical view it would be hard to tell friend from foe unless you just mean spawning them in town and then have them attack as a normal monster would do.

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Post by Kaidan Firestone » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:43 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

I see no problem with a normal monster attack. Generally speaking, when you are hiring a mercenary army to do your fighting, you are accepting that they aren't going to be civil or fair. They are in it for the loot.

As to "why not" to Roleplay fights. As I said, they shouldn't simply be banned or whatever, if players want to do it, they can. My "why not" is because you can roleplay while you are fighting. Which I have no problem doing. I simply feel that you shouldn't roleplay your character with skills and abilities that it doesn't have when there is an engine in the game specifically for those skills and abilities. Lets say a brand new character "fights" with a master. The fight drags out for 15 minutes, the master character roleplays being drained and tired from the fight. The next day that new character gets killed by a pair of zombies thus making something of a roleplay conundrum. IMO I think consistency is more important than playing a cool character. besides, it is more entertaining to verbally argue and fight than it is to emote #me spins his blade gracefully, backflips to avoid an incoming hit, dances on one leg while parrying the incoming blows. etc.

And I also agree with Cromwell, it is unfair for a place like Silverbrand and Varshikar to declare war on a place like Trolls Bane when reprisals are basically impossible. This can be resolved by disabling all the inner teleportations into the Trolls bane walls which I don't understand why they exist anyhow. I don't think there are building specific teleportations for other settlements (This may be revealing of my noobishness though, I am simply saying this because I have never seen someone say "tavern varshikar" and teleport away).

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Post by Athian » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:00 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Kaidan Firestone wrote:This can be resolved by disabling all the inner teleportations into the Trolls bane walls which I don't understand why they exist anyhow. I don't think there are building specific teleportations for other settlements (This may be revealing of my noobishness though, I am simply saying this because I have never seen someone say "tavern varshikar" and teleport away).
Trollsbane was never originally meant to be a faction specific city. It became such over time but intially think of it as a 'free-city' where everyone gathers, as such it has many 'convenient' portal locations. Now that Trollsbane is no longer so open as it once was these portal spots are a military (and technical) liability ^^.

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Post by Lrmy » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:04 am

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

What exactly would the qualifications for a war be anyways? 30 on 5? 5 on 5? And should both sides have to agree to the war seeing as they'll be adhering to proposed the guidelines. As far as sharing OOC info goes in wartime or disagreement time, I'm against it. Unfortunately, OOC info is used far too often for that to work well. Seems like it would cause a lot of problems.

The topic of PvP etiquette seems to be coming up a lot lately. Obviously PvP is warranted because of the engine but where should we draw the line? RPing a fight is an option, but would require OOC discussion during or before the ordeal. Personally, I side more with Kaidan on that subject. I don't think it's good RP anyways to get a character involved in a hostile way when they're newer to the island. Asking permission or making it known to the other player multiple times completely destroys a warriors chance of beating a mage. It also takes the element of surprise out of things when the odds aren't even. PKing on the other hand should only be done in extreme circumstances. If your intent is to send a message or steal an item they won't OOCly agree to give up then I think it's alright.

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Post by Pendar » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:47 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Well I have been gone for sometime but seems somethings never change....How this all ties into wars, bare with me to the end. I know this thread has been dead a while to, please pardon thread o-mancy. I also appreciate that I am repeating a lot of what has been said, but its just so valid.

The inherent problem with pvp in a RP game is that Illarion by its nature should have no winner and losers. Simply new opportunities to rp new story lines to pursue, some we create some characters "enforce" on us. However its a team game we are all in this together. As soon as PVP comes into play their is immediately a winner and a loser as losing carries a heavy penalty in skill lose, as already stated more so to high end characters. So now left with a "punishment" for losing a player is ten times more lightly to feel hard done by. Suddenly the opposing players rp was not very good, suddenly the opposing player is "griefing" and the conflict is suddenly colored by hard feelings. Losing time and energy for dieing is just punishing players for partaking and even worse for PVP conflicts weakening one side.
This becomes a particular issue when we talk about characters that threaten Trolls Bane, I recall when I played as a guard a few times when pvp would happen numerous times a week. It is disheartening to be involved in as a citizen, your role play dictates you must defend town, however you have already lost skills numerous times so your odds are not improving.

If the death system imposed role play penalties, it would encourage more diverse and varied role play. A simple injury system of sorts, instead of getting clouded you take random penalties that get progressively worse. They can be lost via time and in game perhaps with some systems that speed up recovery or by a prolonged downtime. So when wounded you can either rp being wounded, take up a craft, spend some quality time in a tavern or stay of that character for X time a day or week or whatever.
So basically Pendar sprains his wrist (2 hours to heal), chooses to fight again and this time breaks an arm (48 hours), next time is nearly crippled (5 days). By this point the characters downtime is going to be a week or say four days if they are actively rping in game and receiving proper care from game mechanics. (you get the idea)

This basic system could be expanded to include a coup de grâce system,slight change from being clouded to having crawl wounded to a point or anything else. The mechanics are actually not that important but dieing while having fun should not dictate you have to level grind, not in this sort of game.

Even in a short time in game, I have managed to get clouded twice. Which is fine, I am past caring about skills and stats overly much, but it did strike me as a disheartening system. If I want those skills back it will take hours, hours spent on something brainless in a game that's meant to be all about role playing.
That is secondary though, main point is remove the punishment and you will see peoples acceptance, team play and a more friendly atmosphere flourish. If I get ganked by the big bad lizard demon, well make it something I can role play and take back in game through interaction. Not something I spend hours lamenting as I bash on skeletons or try and pg my mining back up so I do not have to make an excuse for how my smith has forgotten what plate armor is.


How does all of this tie into wars, conflicts and evil characters? Well now players are only losing a little free will, they are not having months of skill grinding undone in a week. So its easier to rp a long, the fact that the system now requires time to recover from injuries means a winner between two sides can be seen, by who is still fighting fit. More over peoples complaints will be more concise and centered on the rp they experienced as they wont be feeling bitter over a loss of time and effort.

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Post by Sir Gnar » Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:55 am

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

~ Must not have seen this thread before, but...

Just wanted to offer a big 'boo hoo' to all the PO's that think being clouded is life shattering.

This is the first & only RPG i ever played, i needed GM help just to get through noobia. I started without knowing a single PO, i didn't even have a forum account until well over a year after i started. I carried the worst equipment and had no outside help. I still do not communicate with any PO outside of Illarion PM or IG. No one would trade with my clueless orc nor did i know how to find anything worthwhile IG.

Point being, i had no outside help and hardly any IG, when i lost something it really mattered. My main char has been ghosted at least a couple hundred times, and counting. When no one would trade with him he became a smith/carpenter. When everyone kept kicking his ass he learned to fight. When mummies blocked his ghost to exit the crypt he waited. I have lost a level 2 and level 3 ring to the lich, i lost my gemmed bow to a mage (Roland u bastard ;) I lost my gemmed daggers to the GM's who said they were bugged. I am still here and motivated.

When I arrived to island Jefferson promptly whooped my ass, my char is now a mastered poison user because that is what he used on me. It motivated me to want to kick his ass the same way. I spent everything on poisoned serinjahs to train, only to find out they are useless. Always back to square one, no armor, no weapons, no coin, and no help. My char is now yellowed in things i never even wanted to learn, even with all the wasted time and cloudings, he wears fine armor made by his own hands and still has gems. It is far from impossible to stay ahead of your cloudings, even in many skill areas.


So now with most having full knowledge of the game, knowing where to train their char, game mechanics, and for many unfortunately having OOC help (somehow, noob chars with gold coins, special items, the best equipment) and messenger. i am glad setbacks are in place. I was able to master alot with none of this, why shouldn't others be able to do it with it.


If you removed cloudings from Illarion, you would lose the entire game. No need for anything special, who would care about good weapons, armor, gems, training warriors or mages alike, making allies, or any non crafting skill whatsoever. Only thing worthwhile would be to craft for fun but no one would even need to buy anything or care what the hell it does for them. My char doesnt often cloud others either, but its nice to know we have the ability when its deserving. Its mean, rewarding, and down right fun most times. :twisted:


I know it doesn't matter because no one of sound mind on the Illarion staff (#w if there are any of sound mind :wink: ) would even dream of removing cloudings. Even so, i thought i'd say boo to your ideas just to be mean :lol:

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Post by Sir Gnar » Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:22 am

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

BTW, much respect to the GM's who will occasionally cloud a pesky char during a quest. Not everyone should make it, especially when you have cooks and tailors going off to defeat a dragon in his own cave...

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Post by Hew Keenaxe » Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:25 am

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Amen Slug!
Without posting another mile long post, I couldn't of said it better.

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Post by Grokk » Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:23 am

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

When was the last time that a significant IG conflict was resolved entirely in game? (i.e. without anyone crying to the staff or abusing OOC to get ahead)

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Post by Nalzaxx » Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:30 am

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Grokk wrote:When was the last time that a significant IG conflict was resolved entirely in game? (i.e. without anyone crying to the staff or abusing OOC to get ahead)
This has never, ever, happened in the entire history of illarion.

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Post by Sir Gnar » Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:43 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

~ Sure hate to toot my own horn again (not really :) ) but during the orcen conflict I managed to keep an 8 orc horde with only an occasional PM & absolutely no MSN or GM communication. We were formed solely by IG encounters & by PO's who had no relationship to eachother prior to forming...


Also, during the final battle a human mage (i won't name to be nice) showed up to the cave, entered by use of a bug and ghosted me in the cave with zero RP or emotes. Just paralyzed my char, zapped him, and then took his things. I never contacted a GM to cry about that either...


Am i great or what?

hello???

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Post by Grokk » Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:42 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Nalzaxx wrote:
Grokk wrote:When was the last time that a significant IG conflict was resolved entirely in game? (i.e. without anyone crying to the staff or abusing OOC to get ahead)
This has never, ever, happened in the entire history of illarion.
Does this not seem like a major problem to anyone else? A problem that something should be done about?

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