RP conflicts and Guidelines

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:43 am

RP conflicts and Guidelines

(split over from its former topic)

Original topic: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... =1&t=35167


This is an important discussion on principles and I'd like to stress that everyone knows individual events that might have ended up in the one or the other inconvenient (=no fun) situation. But let's not focus on the past and bad things but on the future and positive, constructive approaches.

The RPG guide was brought up and it was pointed out that the section about "bad guys" is vague and could use an update. I'd appreciate a concrete first proposal how to change the paragraph so we can discuss about this. Or in other words, it is easy to say that something is bad, but much harder so say what would be good.

In the long run I'd like to stress that a game like Illarion can only work if all involved players do not regard the gain of their characters as their own but accept defeats as opportunities to roleplay; how does my character feel about this defeat? Does it inspire him? Does getting defeated maybe open new roads for my personal style of roleplaying? Winning all the time is of course not possible and I still adore the actions of players of old who let their characters pursuit their own doom for teh lulz. Some more of that attitude, plz!

PS: I'd like to add that the very big update will also bring many changes that focus on how ingame conflicts are dealt with. Realising these aspects is still in an early stage, but the road is clear and I think the solutions that were found will outstand any incremental ideas that were discussed recently.

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Post by Nalzaxx » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:04 am

Re: Temple

I think one issue to keep in mind is that currently loosing =/= interesting roleplay for the character but = not being able to play that character at all. Essentially if you are not winning (or at least not loosing badly enough) then you are either dead or sitting in a locked room twiddling your thumbs. Neither of which is particularly desirable for either side. In this light I think it is a little unfair to expect players to throw away years, and I mean literally years, of hard work and progress with a character 'for the lulz'.

Of course minor defeats and setbacks play their part in adding a rich roleplay atmosphere that everyone reflects in their characters and this can be seen quite clearly effecting each in their own way. The main issue here was that it tends to be OOC feelings and emotion that dictates the direction of roleplay in game rather than IC ones. Characters become merely a foil for the aspirations of the player.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:00 pm

Re: Temple

I think one issue to keep in mind is that currently loosing =/= interesting roleplay for the character but = not being able to play that character at all.
Then we should work on that a little! Locking up a criminal in a lonely dungeon is, of course, a strange habit and not desireable. But this is only a small thing, easy to fix. The big question: Why is a defeat not an opportunity? What is so tricky here? I mean, of course, when a whole town gets defeated and pillaged, not much fun is generated. But what about individuals? How can we "give" players something that improves their experience in the case of personal defeat?
In this light I think it is a little unfair to expect players to throw away years, and I mean literally years, of hard work and progress with a character 'for the lulz'.
I should have added: For their own, personal and also collective lulz. Some players actually enjoyed building up characters with the sole purpose to experience their defeat, played in a fair and constructive way rather than 20x CTRL+click. I appreciate what those players did, because this is not easy. Those who strive for personal gain are not criticised but those who play for collective gain are applauded.

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Post by Aegohl » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:18 pm

Re: Temple

My two cents on issues of inequality, punishment, jailing, justice, etc..

One problem that Illarion has is that the community is kind of disparate in ways. They don't hang out in IRC together but instead hang out in niches on MSN and elsewhere. The problem with that is that there are a lot of issues that the players could solve for themselves that they're instead waiting for the GM's, CM's and Devs to solve and while I have immense respect for those guys, they don't always have the time to solve every problem and when they do have the time they're not always right (because they're human and more importantly, even though they're players, they're not the players. They stopped being one of you when they became one of them, which is unfortunate for them as much as it is for you.

The language barrier also creates a problem as well as time zones. There will never be a "Illarion community" when there is the "german illarion community" and the "ami illarion yankee doodle squad" and also the "morning players" and the "evening players." But that's a bigger cookie than I'm willing to bite into yet tonight.

In any case, I've seen communities where the players who govern, we'll say, CITY A, say that "In City A, there is an OOC rule that X, Y, Z are unacceptable behavior." They just don't want to do that kind of rp. No trouble. If you want to do that kind of rp you can go elsewhere. Depending on the shard and how much the staff gives power to the ingame rulership of a city, breaking those OOC rules might either just mean that no one wants to play with you anymore or it might mean that you get temp banned from a GM.

This usually is beneficial to rp because different cities should have different feels and offer different ooc guidelines. For example, let's say:

City A is a lawful city that is primarily where new players start out. Open PVP is unacceptable unless you get OOC authorization from the other player or you offer some sort of ultimatum in-character ie "Step any closer and feel my blade!!" Even the guards might be bound by this rule, so they have to offer the criminal an ultimatum before striking. Criminals are expected to play along with attempts to be arrested (although they don't have to just give in. they just have to be receptive to rp rather than just running away). If you commit a crime inside the town limits you're not to commit another except in the case of self-defense for x amount of time.

City B is a nearly-lawless rogue city, on the other hand and has much more lenient ooc rules, only asking that if you become a citizen that your character be at least fitting to the setting of a rogue city to defend the style of rp that goes on there. (You may have noticed that this would have been nice in early Varshikar where it quickly went from a scheme to harbor villains and commit acts of banditry to being a place where people hug trees. While either style of rp is acceptable, the OOC rules would at least allow one style of rp to survive for a time to see if it hatches and becomes something interesting.)

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Post by Athian » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:37 pm

Re: Temple

@Aegohl

You may have been a GM in the past, but don't speak for the CM's as you don't know anything about them. A assure you that the CM's are still players, most of far more active then you yourself were as a regular player or a staff member. Its that level of involvement in the game that actually helps a CM. They aren't detached from the game world nor do they receive any special IG perks etc.

@ Cities

The problem is that cities themselves cannot maintain a role because of the players have been allowed exclusive ownership of whole cities. I hate to use Varshikar every time as an example, but Aegohl you should have been around long enough to remember when Varshikar was actually very interesting, a place for the more roguish characters to still have something of a city lifestyle of there own. Sadly Varshikar did not simply change over time, it changed because of 'A-LOT' of OOC manipulations,favors and overlooking various forms of underhanded play. 'Kumdah' will always be the crown jewel of the everything wrong with Illarion.

Trollsbane is something opposite to Varshikar in the sense that it's ooc manipulations were at least done on a player level and generally involved less GM/staff involvement. In the past it has shown how the exact opposite approach as with Varshikar is no better. The constantly mutable government while fun for the players as it allowed them to be involved in something bigger then there individual characters lives; also allowed for a whole different breed of abuse that also went fairly overlooked by the GM's until things would get so bad that something had to be done.

Before i get to deep into detail on this, I see only two ways to address this. First is GM leadership, originally I was against this idea, but the GM's for the most part are detached enough that they won't make stupid decisions of whimsical every day actions only to benefit there particular group of friends or allies while sucking away the fun of another. Every aspect of government wouldn't be run by a staff member, just the highest position(and mostly figurehead in this role aside from large decisions). This would stop stupidity like an invading group changing all the locks on every door in the city for no apparent reason in less then a day (you know who you are).

the second would be to establish a new way of giving cities power. The aspects of a city that make it powerful in illarion are; the number of PG'er, and how inaccessible said 'players' are from their enemies. lets look at The recent 'war'. Places like 'kumdah' and 'Silverbrand' with there locked doors and castles with magic entrances take nothing less then GM approval to plot an invasion. Places like Trollsbane however have more then a half dozen different portal locations from which to siege, all within its boundaries. Combined with the lack of considerations on the part of the invaders with the timing of the event, there was no real chance for any of the more powerful defenders to arrive and it simply boiled down to which side had more 'players' and PG'ers on it at the time. It is one of the single poorest attempts at conflict I've seen in years.

what I would love to see some city wealth play a part in conflicts. Being profitable for instance might allow you to pay for NPC soldiers of various strength depending on the amount of coin and equipment you could muster. In the same manner as the Salk army was comprised of NPC warriors it would be nice for the cities for Gobiath to be able to hire conscripts for offense or defense. This wouldn't mean you would win the war ever time (a good group of powerful players might still mow through your army) but it would allows wars to have a turning point other then "how high yur skillz are", or "if you gots the QWAN rune." Such things should play a role in conflict of course but they should not be the lynch pin to winning and losing. in short: to produce organic conflicts between sides(not simply 'good' and 'evil') there needs to be more factors to diversify the outcome.

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Post by Aegohl » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:18 pm

Re: Temple

Athian wrote:@Aegohl

You may have been a GM in the past, but don't speak for the CM's as you don't know anything about them. A assure you that the CM's are still players, most of far more active then you yourself were as a regular player or a staff member. Its that level of involvement in the game that actually helps a CM. They aren't detached from the game world nor do they receive any special IG perks etc.
You don't understand my point. It's not detachment I speak of. You've just decided to take it as an insult as I can assure it wasn't meant. I hope that you didn't mean the tone that your post reads. I've been staff at more games on more levels with more variance and different players than you could possibly imagine. Don't assume that your two weeks of community leadership gives you some insight that I somehow couldn't grasp.

What I stated is meant exactly as I said it: you're not x because you're y. It doesn't matter what you might suggest the difference entails, it's only that there's a difference that I've pointed out.

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Post by Alexander Knight » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:49 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

See the problem I find is that people get attatched to certain chars.
I myself have done it but not to the same extent..
While Alex went a bit crazy (I use this excuse for my lesser ability to RP due to me being quite new at the time) he spent most of his timein jail. Now, thinking back I was happy for that to happen as it's gave me time to actually think my RP through and I would be more than happy to be imprisoned again (As it gives me time to play other chars as well as making it a bit more 'real' for me as a player).
I am fine if Alex is suddenly jumped on and beaten though what does stress me out is people ignoring RP or forcing RP to do such an act.
I take an example of a few months ago with another character of mine when he was attacked.. After an argument which got broke apart I was found 5 minutes later. With my back turned (And therefor not physically being able to see them from an RP point of view) they approached and mutterd their goodbyes and instantly emoted attacking and ctrl+clicked without even giving me a chance to reply.. Well I did manage to say "hm?" and start to type an emote. As this was a new character vs a maxed one the fight lasted 3 hits and I got ghosted.

On the city post I agree with Athian, invasions are sometimes very poorly planned.
I did not even know about the plot to take Trolls Bane until I walked IG and saw none of the former goverment.
With the attacker/defender NPC's I guess it would be pretty hard to do technical wise though it is possible to include a "faction" into NPC script and have a GM spawn opposing factions though it would be a hell of a lot harder for them to differ friend from foe in the players. unless there is somehow a 'leader' who the NPCs will follow and could control them (maybe whoever they ctrl+click the NPCs or orders like the NPC tax collection.) though this is just a guess as I am not a scrpter by far and with the vbu there may not actually be the manpower to put it into use.

Either way I do hope this sort of thing sorts itself out as it's kinda splitting the community up by the sounds of things.

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Post by Athian » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:08 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

@ Dji

Same worn out line that always comes out of you every time you want to throw the prejudice card up as a defense. Its vague, means nothing but has just enough shock value words to act as a smokescreen against nothing actually valid. You've said next to nothing on the actual topic, opinion or not. The 'war' was handled terribly, thankfully most people were nice enough not to flame the forum outside of the a little in the off-topic. Just because people were quiet doesn't mean it was a great success or that it was handled well after the fact. As to me liking or disliking anyone what does that have to do with it? It should be clear to you that i don't dislike the players i dislike the methods many players English or German have used to get their way. Some German players are just as guilty of this as some English players in Bane have been. You don't say a word toward the defense of non German players I mention in the same manner. What, German players cannot be guilt of the same things as the rest of the player base? Or should i just not mention it because they are German players and i am not? The only point I see that isn't valid in the discussion so far is the way you post only to jump to some phantom defensive, while leaving little actual content and thus adding next to nothing. So no Dji, YOU stop it.

@ Aegohl
You don't understand my point. It's not detachment I speak of. You've just decided to take it as an insult as I can assure it wasn't meant. I hope that you didn't mean the tone that your post reads.
No there was no 'tone' meant for you, i apologize if it seemed that way, read it again and don't add your own flavoring. I still don't agree with you, but i think that's entirely within my rights, no?
I've been staff at more games on more levels with more variance and different players than you could possibly imagine. Don't assume that your two weeks of community leadership gives you some insight that I somehow couldn't grasp.
See this though gets me all feisty... So you've been staff in some X amount of games, that hardly means that your opinion more correct then my own or anyone else's. What would you like me to say? "Congratulations your a giant nerd who thinks he's a gaming psychology professor?" Its good though that you mention this, since you've been a part of so many various communities it shouldn't be to hard for you to go back to them and stop haunting this one with irrelevant, out of touch conjecture. (see now this part has the tone your thinking of)

There I got that out of my system, back to business. If you want to argue me more Aegohl my PM box is always open.

@ my actual point

Evil and good of players doesn't exist, its always going to be one side vs the other. being Neutral or whatever I think doesn't have much to do with this, conflicts are based upon differences in motives and opinions. A truly neutral party would have no quarrels with anyone, thus i don't feel that anyone in illarion is actually completely neutral even though they might not have a opinion that causes them to come into direct conflict with another person or party. However roughly toward Aegohls point, there really isn't any fall back place for anyone with alternative ways of thinking. There used to be but those places were seized or converted for very shallow reasons and sometimes unfair methods or went support-less because they did not have the majority of the player population in them. Whenever a location has the chance to become perhaps a haven for the more shady sort it tends to get stifled, either by old owners who come rushing back when their property is in danger but do not play these character's (or at all) otherwise, or people who make it there sole duty to make sure that player ____ and his or her friends can never get ahead. Both these scenarios have happened countless times in the history of illarion, German or English side. This leans me more towards Aegohl's concept of some static theme'd locations which provide the same opportunity for anyone no matter which role they choose to play. But in order to have such places they all will require equal maintenance, so such places would each have to have a GM overseer.

@Alex

Yes i know the idea doesn't work the way i wish it would, but i suppose spawning NPC's at each-other would be possible if not a bit messy^^. I'd still love to see some conflict breakers that don't have to deal with how many of your sides PG'er's are awake at what time. Right now Martial and magical power rule EVERYTHING. A purely political leader is incredibly difficult to play when half the isles most opinionated characters can walk up and kill you in under five seconds, and everyone around is too frightened to lift a hand to help you. Power positions can rarely be played by non-empowered characters, something that i find a bit sad, considering there are alot of players with a lot of good ideas.

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Post by Alexander Knight » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:27 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

@Athian
I totally agree which is why I have such a great deal of respect for PO Edric in an RP sense.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Though could we please stop having a go at eachother!
We play a game with a very small playerbase as it is without scaring off new players with angry posts.

Perhaps the fact that the "evil" guilds are not evil enough for players to respond appropriatly or maybe they just have not got enough players to enforce their evil deeds?
May be worth making a new char just to try and help the evil side maintain it's persona without metagaming at the same time :P

Personally I would love to see the Temple start getting alot darker.. Kidnapping, sacrificing, hanging people from a tree (Obviously will have to have premission from players to Perma a char) god! I would even make a char just for them to kill lol

On another note I don't feel that this US+UK/German divide actually holds any truth.
I've RP'd with a few German PO's and I see no problem. Even down to the slight racism between chars who speak old and new. That for me adds a bit more realism instead of accepting all races (Which moden society tries but there will always be some pent up agression) like a lizard leading Trolls Bane which is the biggest human settlement. Thats not a dig at Fooser just the way I personally would like to see things go towards the racism barrier like everyone hating Orcs :P

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Post by Aegohl » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Athian wrote: No there was no 'tone' meant for you, i apologize if it seemed that way, read it again and don't add your own flavoring. I still don't agree with you, but i think that's entirely within my rights, no?
I've been staff at more games on more levels with more variance and different players than you could possibly imagine. Don't assume that your two weeks of community leadership gives you some insight that I somehow couldn't grasp.
See this though gets me all feisty... So you've been staff in some X amount of games, that hardly means that your opinion more correct then my own or anyone else's. What would you like me to say? "Congratulations your a giant nerd who thinks he's a gaming psychology professor?" Its good though that you mention this, since you've been a part of so many various communities it shouldn't be to hard for you to go back to them and stop haunting this one with irrelevant, out of touch conjecture. (see now this part has the tone your thinking of)

There I got that out of my system, back to business. If you want to argue me more Aegohl my PM box is always open.
Thanks for clearing up my point about your tone. Now that I know you're not a jerk, I'll go back to not having any clue about anything compared to you, you glorified message board moderator for going on two weeks. Tell you what, you man up and PM me, because I'm not going to let you have your digs on me in front of everyone and then complain to the brick wall of your inbox.
Last edited by Aegohl on Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Retlak » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:18 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

May I remind you all to soften the attitude, no one here should consider themselves more important than the next person.

Thank you.

Matt

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Post by Aegohl » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:20 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Athian knows I respect him as an experienced player. Hell, when I was a noob it was membership in his guild the Seekers that helped me get my legs at Illarion. However, I don't think he has some magic point of view that I couldn't surmise as well and that apparently offends his majesty, the CM.
Last edited by Aegohl on Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Kaidan Firestone » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:24 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Athian and Aegohl are bickering like a couple going through divorce.

The whole town getting a private army is a great idea but entirely off topic.

Estralis is asking for suggestions on how to update the RPG guide.

In that regard I have little suggest to change. For the most part we can't say how a bad character will be viewed ingame because it is up to the dozens of players to determine what the consensus is for that character. For example, ingame the general consensus is that Dain is never to be trusted while Stefan comes out pure as snow. Of course some actions the characters actually do will help mold that consensus but for the most part it will always go as a case by case basis ingame.

I know a lot of people complain about their character having a very bad reputation (from actions that character has done) essentially causing that character to be an outcast among the bulk of other characters. We can discuss that if those players want to, but I think there is nothing to discuss. Their characters did actions, other characters don't like those actions, some characters will simply stay opposed to those other characters because of the actions and events those characters have done. And it has nothing to do with a predisposed prejudice against those players.

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Post by Athian » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

^^ well not a private army so much, just something to even out the sides, you know the X factor that could make playing a real evil villain a bit more viable from a player prospective, and not require it to involve mass power-gaming in any sense.

The guide are vague in the definition of evil, that's because it's entirely subjective. Murder is of course an evil act...unless your killing off my enemy and then its good for me. As with most offenses, evil is only morally wrong up until a point. I really don't know how if you can force people into a 'fixed' opinion of evil. That's part of what makes the game fun but it also makes things confusing, when a particular brand of evil isn't very evil to you. Every town and city basically has its own measure of evil based upon who plays in it. its something i'm not sure rewording is really going to fix.

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:04 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Griefing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer is hard to combat in a game such as Illarion due to the griefer actually skirting yet not breaking the rules. One act even with a GM watching may be fine, multiple ones with the same PO using one or more chars... against another PO's one or more chars along with different GM's seeing nothing wrong taken individually.. however more then one such incident should be concern there is griefing involved. These multiple acts can get lost in the shuffle and ignored due to the griefer following the rules, the griefer having friends in admin, the theory that the opinion of the one complaining is "highstrung" or "asking for it", and oocly manipulations. Because Illarion's form of oocly communication is mainly msn rather then irc which the admins can monitor, and because the game allows PvP in all areas, it is well suited to this form of problem. The CM's are an added layer of protection helping the GM's to make sure the game stays as it should, a healthy envionment for players to enjoy roleplaying their chars and on a personal note I welcome the addition, thanks Vilarion!

I have suggested this before but since it has been awhile will repeat. There should be no PvP with ghosting without the other player permission or unless you know beyond doubt that player wouldn't object... this with a "shady" or a "good" char i.e. if my char is attacked, I figure I have permission :wink:. Because there are all kinds playing the game, if a player ignores the wishes of another player continuing on their merry way of simply playing for themselves, they might as well play a single player game. To get permission is not as hard to do as it seems even in game and doesn't have to be a matter of oocly discussion, if my char places a hand on her sword and frowns it is likely she will draw it, or be prepared to. If the other char does the same fine...if they back away however, oocly I have NOT gotten player permission so I will move the roleplay toward a solution that doesn't involve PvP. Personally I prefer to get player permission for any major actions on their chars such as kidnapping etc. and have never had one of my chars kidnapped that I didn't give that permission either directly or by telling the PO "anything goes but ghosting" liking surprises ( I have two chars that even ghosting if fine, the other two I would prefer not.). As an aside, I have totally avoided any PvP "area's" in other games desiring instead to get this "permission" and to give it or no PvP because some players tend to think this is a place to hack and slash unabandoned.

Due to illarion's unique community mainly two primary languages yet some with others joining us there should be allowances made that may not be in other games. The time differnce is one. Illarion has a special charm due to this mix of players, however not allowing for time differences in major quests involving all players can be at the very least frustrating to part of the players. The takeover of Trolls Bane is a prime example though I am sure there are plenty similar from the opposite side of the world also. I don't have an easy answer except to change times occasionally allowing some players to at least participate somewhat and to concentrate major actions on weekends which seem to be the main free times of all players.

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Post by Nomos » Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:50 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

An interesting topic here that almost answers its self. The guide does need updating, a little more clarity in its vagueness if you ask me. As has been said, good and evil are inherent in us all, are a matter of opinion, thought, raising, teaching and moment of circumstance. As a guide for such an open and broad subject as this, it should not state -how- to play or what –IS- the best way to do so but more, what to expect and is expected by other players.

As a note, you will never remove OOC choice of play from people, as per the Temple thread. As this thread shows (and is perfectly natural in human nature.) We will always use what we know of someone be that a played character, forum, chat whatever to base our understanding or concept of a player. There are people we get on with and those we just don’t for whatever reasons. As for playing the game, some people simply just do not like or want to play with a certain other or others, it is not necessarily or wholly the way a character is played. A little mature intervention or discussion may remedy this but at times humans do as human and reserve themselves from what they have no taste or want for and that is fine if it remedies personal conflict and pacifies uncomfortable game play.

So if you would give pause to thought and then keys to finger,
What would your expectation be from other players if you played a biblical concept of evil dominant char?
What would you as a player expect from interaction with a biblical concept of evil dominant char?


From this black, we as players can make shades of grey with our character creation and development all through to white, and have a fair understanding through the updated guide on what we will get out of it and what others will enjoy from it.

*Note* There is an unwritten Illa player etiquette that ghosting is frowned upon. (One I do not discourage.) While it IS a very unhappy time to be smooshed, it is game engine. IF ghosting was not meant to be then the Devs would not have it in the game mechanics.

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Post by Athian » Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:03 am

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

So if you would give pause to thought and then keys to finger,
What would your expectation be from other players if you played a biblical concept of evil dominant char?
What would you as a player expect from interaction with a biblical concept of evil dominant char?
Great way to start

When i think of my expectation for an evil character I think of someone whom can move between passive and the height of extreme violence at a whim and everything in between. The evil character does not always use violence as an answers especially when manipulation can work just as well. He or she tries to get what he wants through the minimalist use of effort, relying on intimidation and wordless threats to carry their meaning. most of all, an evil character NEVER does anything that would be out of there own benefit. they never sacrifice of themselves unless they stand to gain double what they have given. Everything for them has a price tag at which it can be lost, even lovers and children. Every emotion save from personal pleasure is just a tool that they use to get what they want, and they are always on the hunt for a chance to get ahead at the expense of others. When it comes to violence they are either malicious and enjoy the violence they commit or mechanically methodical, hurting and killing people with all the concern of batting an eyelash.

What i expect from interaction:

As I generally don't play any particular weak characters i expect that an evil character can give my characters pause with his threat alone. My characters should be left to wonder just how great the threat is of this person. On my magician character an evil character should make him feel threatened, without the need of threatening violence, they need to have an air of danger and choas about them. On my warrior i would say an evil character need to make him worry less about himself and more about his loved ones. Its the looming threat that really makes me feel a character has that 'evil' potential. On my non fighter the cut-throat leave no prisoners sort of character always feels the most evil to me. Overall I expect to have to always be on my toes, never know what that evil character might do.

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Post by Alexander Knight » Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:10 am

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Personally when I think evil I think more Jefferson than Joxia.
Jefferson has the ertain air about him which got me heavily in character and is the main reason why I still play Illarion today.
As a whole 'Evil' is a wide assortment of characters but the true evil I find is more dark ad suggestive like Athian said.
Someone who can walk into a room and make it fall quiet with a look.

If playing an evil char I would expect quite a volitile char who will do anything to get ahead and will generally take losing REALLY bad.

Though I do see them having a more... druid like life. Living alone and rarely seen or heard from

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Post by HolyKnight » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:12 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

On Topic of adjusting the Evil guy :
GM I Guess wrote: Evil guys

The characters that are played with a bad style the most are "evil" characters. To play a bad guy is really hard! Many dull persons just want to kill other people like in other games. They have no reason why they kill and are just killing randomly.
If you are playing a murderer for instance, you won't kill anyone without choice that comes along. The risk of getting caught or killed yourself is too high. He will only kill where he has a motive and will be relatively sure that no one will take revenge. Also he should have a nature that enables him to kill without regret. Even a lunatic would not kill randomly. He also has a story, how he got mad and perhaps there are some situations that provoke an outburst of rage. All this must be logically from the persons background story.
People tend to think of murderers if they think of "evil", even if a murder is perhaps the most seldom crime. What about tricksters? Thieves? Rowdys? Schemers? Spys? Road robbers? Blackmailers? Kidnappers? Badmouthing about the merchant concurrents? Conflicts between neighbours? Peasants that put vermin in the barns of other peasants? Isn't it more pleasing to infiltrate a guild, sell their secrets and set them against another guild, to get rid of two guilds that are concurring with your (third) guild?
Whatever type of "evil" you are playing, play him consistent. Don't be a fierce robber on one day and, as soon as it gets attractive to take part on the life of a simple citizen, play a friendly villager that takes part on the banquette of the king (where of course many people know him as a robber, but don't act against him, because it is so nice sitting together talking.
  • (Edited: Bad Guys)

    Before you start your path toward creating a so called "bad guy or girl" first consider your character's motivations. Why are they bad or evil? Is he or she a psychopath, sociopath, victim of circumstances, or perhaps demonically possessed? It is important to know the difference not only for the development of your character but also for the benefit of the characters you will engage. Playing an evil or bad character will not be easy especially if you decide that your character will just kill out of boredom or randomness like in other games. While player vs. player fighting is part of the game if you decide to just attack another character without warning or reason be prepared to deal with the consequences.

    Rule violations will be dealt with accordingly, but even if you don't break any game rules when you attack another player there may be other consequences as well. For instance if you play a character that needs to kill how long could you continue killing people if you did it in broad daylight with several witnesses? The answer is not very long. You may have one spree, but in all likelihood you'd end up dead or in prison. So it would do you well to develop a solid background to base your character's decisions upon. Does he or she resort to violence because of a troubled past, perhaps a streaky temper, or even an unfortunate curse. Be creative but at the same time considerate to other players and the conflict will be as entertaining as it is cultivating.

    Keep in mind that not all evil requires you to attack another player openly. Evil has shades of gray and every character will have a personalized definition of what evil means to them. Surely a knight bearing his code of honor will openly oppose a thief, but at the same time a guard with a gambling habit may look the other way if the coin is right. Always be aware of your community and understand that as players protagonists need antagonists but there must be a give and take from both parties. A player does not want to log in everyday to be killed by the same mugger especially if there is no entertainment value presented.

    So what will you be: a devious trickster, thief, drunken rowdy, lofty schemer, treacherous spy, infamous highwayman, blackmailer, kidnapper, or necromantic cultist? Perhaps titles aren't your fancy and you just prefer to badmouth people behind their back and muster up rumors about some revolting disease they picked up in Gynk. The choices are endless but be consistent in your roleplay and your character will flourish in infamy.

This would be my revision, but I don't know if it would actually help the issue brought up by Matt. I also think the terms evil character or bad guy should be revised even though I did not include it in my revision. I think we should encourage the word antagonist to describe the kind of characters we are looking to have in this community. As players we all enjoy a bit of drama it is what makes the game unpredictable and gives that edge of suspense. However, as people we can tend to over analyze motives or intentions and emit those in a negative way toward other players instead of characters.

For instance if character A is attacked by character B, sometimes I hear character A's PO say. "All character B is trying to do is find a reason to PK." This is a bad situation for our community and I think that is what leads to OOC tempers rising. From there we get the affect Matt is talking about where POs start thinking other POs are just evil people. That is a problem anyway you look at it and there are so many gray areas for CMs and GMs to navigate.

I think some beneficial ways to facilitate a healthy good vs. evil/bad mentality would be to implement some of the following:

-Like mentioned before provide areas on the map for both to thrive. A city for n00bs and justice and a city for rogues and roughnecks.
-I don't mind the idea of figurehead leaders for both towns each being GM controlled for raids, wars, and big time decisions.
-A flexible prison system that could have quests (like mine 100 coal to pay your debt back to society) and the possibility of several characters binding together to escape.
-I like the idea of hiring soldiers if it can be scripted.
-Weak spot vulnerability quests for each town. For instance town A's south wall is vulnerable so faction B collects gynkenese fire or rocks for a quest to knock down that wall. Town A can rebuild the wall when they get enough stones.
-Mainly though EFFORT on both sides to continue the process of GIVE and take. The good guys shouldn't always win nor should the bad guys always win.

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Post by Kevin Lightdot » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:53 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

I'm not sure you're actually allowed to play demonically posessed people without permission anymore.

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Post by Nalzaxx » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

I actually think that ingame conflicts would be better served by a revision of the PvP and Death mechanics in the game. Getting ghosted, particularly for an experienced character is a terrible experience and can wipe out weeks (and I imagine for some months) of hard work and dedication in a single blow. When you have an open PvP system such as the one in illarion, and a stronger character can simply wander up to you and set you back that amount there are of course going to be problems that arise OOC.

It's my belief that if we could remove this element from the game it would help turn the situation into more of a fun competition between groups rather than a do or die struggle that drags in all elements of OOC influence and every single cheap trick and bug abuse to win. Simply put loosing doesn't foster a "Nice battle guys, we'll get you next time." it creates an "Oh dear god It'll take me weeks to regain my losses." I think this is one of the reasons people try to permakill off the other group as, if they manage, they don't have to worry about the rediculously severe death penalties.

No-one from the Temple side turned up to the battle simply because there was no chance of victory and they didn't want to suffer the crippling losses that would have been associated with it. If we could have turned up, had a cool battle and lost, of which the consequence would be an OOC agreement that we forfeit the town then I think that day would have been a lot more fun. And it isn't even as if the losses are one sided. I've no doubt that when Nalcaryos got clouded it completely destroyed his motivation to play the game. Even though this is in some ways a good thing for us, (if he doesn't play we don't have to worry about him clouding US) I don't think it takes a genius to realise that this situation is far from perfect, and I don't want him to stop playing because of it.

In my opinion the game would be served far greater if the penalties for death were reduced to a much more temporary basis. The hour wait after being clouded is a great idea and should be improved upon in other ways, but the skill and item loss just provides completely unecessary heartache that, in my opinion at least, adds nothing to the game.


As to the evil question I would simply say that it is nonsense to even have a guide for 'evil' characters. Take for example some events that have occured ingame.

a.) A man overwhelms his rival and forces him to drink a potion, cursing him to wither and become a monstrosity.
b.) A man kidnaps an innocent elf and uses his essence to transform a king's children into elves, so that the king will understand the error of his ways.
c.) A man takes up a fight against an evil sorceress in order to save his friends from her bewitchment and to spare the island her wrath.
d.) A man sides with a great general from far away and helps him conquer a town so that his rivals can not gain a foothold there.
e.) A man escapes an unfair imprisonment and, in doing so, begins a war between two nations.
f.) A man is involved in a bar brawl. He slaughters his opponents along with any witnesses, the Gods take away his powers as punishment.

Which of these would you attribute to an evil character? Would it surprise you to know which characters are responsible for each of them?

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Post by Kaidan Firestone » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:25 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Death needs to and should have consequences. The notion that somehow someone who is so emotionally invested in his character that he will rage quit when his character loses one or two skill levels and a handful of rare items but won't care if his character loses the settlement he had spent months/years building is absurd on its face.

It takes a level of maturity to play this game. If you rage quit when you get clouded by players (or perhaps the occasional spider) then you really need to take a break from any RPG.

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Post by Tialdin » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:39 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Wie Athian schon geschrieben hat gibt es kein gut oder böse.
Beide Begriffe sind höchst subjektiv.

Worüber also reden wir hier?

Wir reden über Verbrecher, über Kriminelle, Menschen (Wesen) die
Gesetze brechen.

Objektiv kann man sich wohl darauf verständigen, dass Taten
welche im realen Leben eine Strafe
(Sozialstunden, Geldstrafen, Gefängnis)
nach sich ziehen hier gemeint sind.

Alleine deswegen würde ich den Titel "Evil Guys" eher in
"Lawbreaker" ändern oder eine Passage zu "Lawbreakern" in
die Spielregeln und nicht in den RPG Guide aufnehmen.

Im folgenden ein spontaner Versuch eine Spielregel zu formulieren.

_______________________________________________________________
Vorschlag:

Gesetzesbrecher

Achte die Gesetze oder lebe mit den Konsequenzen. In Illarion
haben sich einige Regierungen etabliert. Diese haben für ihre
Einflussgebiete Gesetze erlassen und bestimmte Taten unter
Strafe gestellt. Wenn Dein Charakter eines dieser Gesetze
übertritt, kann es zu einer Bestrafung kommen. Einige Strafen
werden direkt von der Engine unterstützt, andere werden durch
Rollenspiel gelöst. Diese Bestrafungen sind Teil des Rollenspiels
und gehören zu der Simulation einer Gesellschaft dazu.
Selbst dann, wenn es sich um eine ungerechte oder despotische
Regierung handelt.

In diesem Punkt wird deine Selbstbestimmung über Deinen Charakter
eingeschränkt, was dazu führen kann das unangenehme Situationen
durchgespielt werden müssen. Einzig bei einem Todesurteil (wie es
in einer mittelalterlich geprägten Fantasywelt vorkommen kann) greift
weiterhin die Selbstbestimmung und Du kannst der permanenten Löschung
deines Charakters widersprechen.
Wenn Dir eine Strafe zu hart vorkommt wende dich erst im Spiel
an die entsprechende Regierung, sollte diese sich nicht einsichtig
zeigen gehe den Weg über einen CM oder GM.

Allerdings gilt wie in der Realität auch, wenn Du nicht erwischt
wirst folgt auch keine Strafe.

Solltest Du jedoch erwischt werden, wirst du mit einer Strafe leben
müssen. Wiederholtes Umgehen dieser Strafen kann von den GMs als
Regelverletzung eingestuft werden.
_________________________________________________________________

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Post by Athian » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:42 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Kaidan Firestone wrote:Death needs to and should have consequences. The notion that somehow someone who is so emotionally invested in his character that he will rage quit when his character loses one or two skill levels and a handful of rare items but won't care if his character loses the settlement he had spent months/years building is absurd on its face.

It takes a level of maturity to play this game. If you rage quit when you get clouded by players (or perhaps the occasional spider) then you really need to take a break from any RPG.

You've never had skills in the 90's I imagine ^^ From the prospect of players who skill up, when you reach the high end of your skills they become ridiculously hard to reacquire. Some skills are much harder then others to attain as well. I agree however death without consequence is not a good idea. Losing items hurts because currently anything good is difficult to attain.

The reasoning why items are so motivating/demotivating makes sense to me. Lets all face it, Illarion monsters suck when it comes to the pay out. The best items you cannot get without a lot of time and patience. Time spent killing monsters to find magical item X is certainly not a pleasurable experience, when you find this item after investing this painstaking amount of time, losing it can hurt your motivation. This however can be fixed with more diverse and lucrative drops, and drop rates being based on the difficulty of the monster you are fighting and its spawn time. Obviously a super strong monster boss that takes a group to kill and spawns once every day (example) should have a large chance of dropping its very good items for the effort and risk that the monster has involved in it. Sadly this is not the case currently with illarion, you must farm and grind even the most powerful monsters on the map and generally you end up with a hand full of coins and a bottle or something. This tend to give the feeling that you aren't meant to have the good items, thus when people get them they want to hold onto them no matter what.

To quote Estralis "fixed with the VBU" (I hope ><)

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Post by Tialdin » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:44 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

I am agree with Nalzaxx the Skill loss is not fair
ist a great different to loose a Skillpoint from 31 to 30
than from 95 to 94.

I hope the lost will changed in Development Steps,
so a ghosting have the same concequence for a high skilled
and a weak skilled char.

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Post by Fooser » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:45 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Nalzaxx wrote:In my opinion the game would be served far greater if the penalties for death were reduced to a much more temporary basis. The hour wait after being clouded is a great idea and should be improved upon in other ways, but the skill and item loss just provides completely unecessary heartache that, in my opinion at least, adds nothing to the game.
Haven't you heard? We must force players to be terrified of death for the sake of realism.

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Post by Retlak » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:54 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

To be honest, Kaiden, Death shouldn't hold any consequences that are detrimental to a players time and effort. What you say is all fine and good to consider, but you need to tell that to 90% of the community and it may not get far.

While we should focus on this game having an effective system, one method is not to annoy the player base.

I would love to go to war and lose happily, have my characters kingdom stolen from him, roleplay it out and suffer a temporary penalty that stops me playing for 24 hours or something, enough to make me think about whether i want to jump into the fight in the first place, as long as I can log in later and be a-okay and continue enjoying the game I'll be motivated.

150 Demon skeletons = What i've been killing for the last two weeks to get back some skill points lost to an internet connection interuption :wink: I could have spent that time doing something fun. I think we lost some valuable players recently also because they aren't as motivated as myself on this matter.

It is better to remove a problem in the first place, than to try and work with it.

Matt

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Post by Tialdin » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:05 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Ein anderer Teil der Diskussion sollte sein, welche Strafen überhaupt sinnvoll sind. Laut einiger Aussagen soll
mit dem VBU ein Strafensystem eingebaut werden.

Hierzu haben einige Spieler mal Vorschlage gesammelt, aber ich glaube diese wurden noch nicht irgendwo gesammelt
vorgeschlagen.

Bekannt sind bisher:
Geldstrafen, Gefängnisstrafen und Verbannung

Gefängnis und Verbannung ist eher Rollenspielschädlich. Gefängnisstrafen kann der Spieler einfach dadurch umgehen
das er mit dem Char nicht einloggt. ((Wozu auch ist ja stinklangeweilig im Gefängnis))


Dementsrpechend erscheint es sinnvoll weitere Strafen zu entwickeln, die weniger RP gefährdend sind.

Dazu folgende Ideen:

Fussfesseln = die Bewegungsrate wird für einige Zeit eingeschränkt.

Handfesseln in einhändiger und zweihändiger Version
Eine Hand = der Char kann nur noch eine Hand verwenden die andere wird blockiert, damit entfallen alle zweihändigen Arbeiten und zweihändiger Kampf (oder Schild)
= bei beiden Händen wird arbeiten und Kämpfen unmöglich der Char kann allerdings weiterhin Gegenstände transportieren.

Zwangsarbeit = Der Char muss eine Aufgabe erfüllen. Dies könnte über einen NPC gelöst werden, dem bestimmte
Gegenstände gebracht werden müssen. Könnte aber auch über einen Char gelöst werden.

Hierzu gab es unterschiedliche Varianten, ein Beispiel war Minenarbeit wo der Char die Mine erst dann wieder verlassen kann, wenn er eine bestimmte Menge Erz abgeliefert hat.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Vielleicht gibt es ja noch mehr kreative Ideen für Strafen die das RP nicht so stark belasten.

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Post by Nalzaxx » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:26 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Kaidan Firestone wrote:Death needs to and should have consequences. The notion that somehow someone who is so emotionally invested in his character that he will rage quit when his character loses one or two skill levels and a handful of rare items but won't care if his character loses the settlement he had spent months/years building is absurd on its face.

It takes a level of maturity to play this game. If you rage quit when you get clouded by players (or perhaps the occasional spider) then you really need to take a break from any RPG.
The problem is that it isn't the character who is spending weeks to regain those lost skill points. It is the player that has to sacrifice his time and pleasure in other aspects of the game while he makes up for his losses. It's hard to explain but the loss from being clouded tends to hit players far harder than any RP related loss, and as you say, this is absurd and shouldnt happen. But, simply, it does and just saying "STFU and grow up." isn't solving the problem at all.

Death does need consequences, but they need to be proportionate in order to not spoil the fun. As I mentioned the hour wait is a great idea and I would favour expanding that over the skill/item loss that we have currently. Perhaps death would result in a full cap, an over encumberance and the stat loss. In the first hour the stats regenerate, in the second the encumberance wears off, and in the third the cap is allowed to regenerate.

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Post by Retlak » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:29 pm

Re: RP conflicts and Guidelines

Perhaps death would result in a full cap, an over encumberance and the stat loss. In the first hour the stats regenerate, in the second the encumberance wears off, and in the third the cap is allowed to regenerate.
This, combined with the fact that you need to stay logged in to process it.

That's the kind of penalty that would be affective, enough to make people consider why they are running into battle, and not harsh enough that they get demotivated. It may even be fun to roleplay something like that out!

Matt

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