Illarion is not a world where the 'good' guys must always win. I think some people mistake this game for a story book with a singular ending rather then a progressive world. I can take every point you've made and throw it right back at you. The 'good' guys label themselves good, refuse to lose and refuse to accept consequences they feel are unfair upon there characters. When Trollsbane defeated Silverbrand, Silverbrand was not heavily punished, you were not asked to perma your characters and I know for a fact you would have never agreed to this. Silverbrand in fact was given no form of permanent loss. I imagine that there were plenty of people who found this extremely frustrating as well. If you use the excuse that it is because 'Silverbrand' is no evil then you only end up speaking hypocrisy. You wouldn't give up your home, you wouldn't have all dwarves banned from it, you'd have fought tooth and nail OOC and raised a fuss with every member of the staff if that were to happen.
You do not receive extra liberties because you believe you characters to be good and someone else to be evil. IF your side is frustrated that the can't kill off there enemies then no doubt your enemies feel the same way. Except that in this case your 'enemies' have been mature enough to work around this point, while apparently some people on the other side are unable to do the same and then feel they must stop playing...honestly I find this to be no big loss.
Perhaps in the future we need to work out some rules of engagement for these big types of struggles that will be enforced by the GM's. So that there are some better punishments for those who lose a conflict (not just EVIL people) and everyone can play on even ground.
When Silverbrand lost to orcs...
Anyway, same story - declaring war, losing and busting the balls of the other side ooc over the consequences. Why ask for something from other players which you (and the group of PO's you represent in the debate) are unwilling to give yourself, Tialdin?
Ps. There has never been as bellicose, oathbreaking and sour-losing bunch in Illarion as the dwarves of silverbrand. These are the good guys? Pff.
They also lost to Bane you know...Silverbrand has lost quite a few conflicts in the past. Though this is not directed specifically toward Silverbrand, aside from some of it's members expressing the discontentment. I do however agree with everything save the very last comment, as i have had very few conflicts with the dwarves (i have only watched them near and far) with any personal characters, I think most are quite okay, perhaps I am ignorant
I get that it's hard or maybe frustrating to punish characters in game. But, as Athian and Cromwell pointed out, there's a flip side to the good guys punishing the evil ones. So, you think a guy is evil.. You decide to ban him, make fun of him and attack his friends. It's likely that an evil guy would go after friends and family or maybe you while your alone after all that. That would be how an evil character punishes some one. But since everyone isn't to scared of the occasional PK and has a gang of friends to back them up, nothing can be done to "win" from the bad guys perspective. For instance, my character recently PKed another that was trying to enforce a ban. After this happened I get a PM that pretty much says.. Next time I see you I will attack you quickly. So, there is nothing I can do to "win" my character's struggle against this certain other one. And honestly, I'm ok with that but I'm not ok when the opposite happens and I'm expected to keep my character away from towns because one guy might be there that wants to kill my character.
Illarion RPG rules wrote:Revenge without end
You will love your character after some time. If he dies, a world will break for some players. Therefore we have made the death in Illarion less serious but still hurting. You will be able to keep on playing with some losses. The only permanent death is sentenced by gamemasters, if they find you with a massive rule violation. Therefore players shouldn't make themselfs the law and enforce it on their own. So if you are taking revenge on someone and have to kill him because of the seriousness of his guilt, kill him only once. It is not possible to explain logicaly why someone has to die more than once for the same guilt, so only kill him a second time when he has earned the death again. Also be warned that this "multi killing" is forbidden by the rules and you have to face the consequences if a gamemaster catches you.
Always friendly?
The players of Illarion are manualy selected, so the most of them are so friendly, that they overdo it a bit. Act as your characters nature is. Therfore the most person may have the one or other outburst of rage - without conflicts it would be boring. A wide spread bad habbit is, to give a lot of gifts to new players. This has a few drawbacks, because it takes the fun out of the game for the new player, even if he is happy at the beginning. For many players it is a motivation to achieve wealth in the game that attracts them. If they get a complete high-end equipment set on their first day - what can they achieve more tomorrow? Another drawback is the negative impact on the economy. If expensive equipment is given away for free from some persons, where should the craftsmen earn their money from? The prices will drop to the bottom. If you want to do something good to a new player, than give him something to do. Include him in your roleplay and give him impulses what to do. The good stuff you are doing to him can also be something evil...
It is extremely annoying, if characters that are supposed to be evil (by their background story), quit their evil business for a while to meet with the simple people for a beer in the tavern and give away presents to their enemies and have a nice smalltalk or watch a stage play on the market place. The day after they will be murdering and devastating through the village again and will be hunted by everyone. If you want to play an evil guy, be aware from the beginning that you will exclude yourself from the "normal", peace loving society.
Take part in others roleplay
In a game like this all your companions are controled by real players and not by a computer. Therefore they have the same wishes and rights like you. If you want them to react on your characters actions, do the same for them. If everyone is only playing his own game, you can also play a single player computer game. So if a group of three people catches you from behind and describes with #me commands, how they overpower and tie you, take part in their game (even if it would be technical possible to simply walk away!). If you are extremely strong, you can describe an escape attempt also using #me commands, but don't ignore them completely even it has bad consequences for you.
If you are planning a bigger action, it is a good idea to announce it on the boards before in an appropriate form, to get other players to take part. If you are playing in a gang of robbers for instance, that are planning to raid the village, you can start several days before to post small notes on the board, about some dubious persons lurking around the village, spying on the guards and camping in the nearby woods. This would give other players the possibility to participate so that perhaps 20 instead of 5 person will have fun with this situation. Fun may, in this case, not only mean "win", because the goal is to have fun roleplaying. You may also have fun if your side "looses".
Evil guys
The characters that are played with a bad style the most are "evil" characters. To play a bad guy is really hard! Many dull persons just want to kill other people like in other games. They have no reason why they kill and are just killing randomly.
If you are playing a murderer for instance, you won't kill anyone without choice that comes along. The risk of getting caught or killed yourself is too high. He will only kill where he has a motive and will be relatively sure that no one will take revenge. Also he should have a nature that enables him to kill without regret. Even a lunatic would not kill randomly. He also has a story, how he got mad and perhaps there are some situations that provoke an outburst of rage. All this must be logically from the persons background story.
People tend to think of murderers if they think of "evil", even if a murder is perhaps the most seldom crime. What about tricksters? Thieves? Rowdys? Schemers? Spys? Road robbers? Blackmailers? Kidnappers? Badmouthing about the merchant concurrents? Conflicts between neighbours? Peasants that put vermin in the barns of other peasants? Isn't it more pleasing to infiltrate a guild, sell their secrets and set them against another guild, to get rid of two guilds that are concurring with your (third) guild?
Whatever type of "evil" you are playing, play him consistent. Don't be a fierce robber on one day and, as soon as it gets attractive to take part on the life of a simple citizen, play a friendly villager that takes part on the banquette of the king (where of course many people know him as a robber, but don't act against him, because it is so nice sitting together talking).
I don't. Some parts of these rules need some serious update to match the actual play environment. They are a vague and years old outline in some cases, with parts that are tried and true and other parts that don't mean much anything.
The 'evil guys' section is the worst of it and the most invalid, simply because everyone in illarion save a very few people have probably wronged someone or gotten into some aggressive RP, etc. Players are the ones who label each other good or evil but everyone generally has committed acts that someone might considered evil. truth be told as i've said already, there no no really evil characters played by players over the long term, its merely a matter of being the side with the most people on it. Real evil is something to complex generally to be played for the long term for many reasons on both the side of the EVIL beings and the ones who want to defeat it.
@Alexander
the text you have posted are not part of the rules its only part of the rpg guide i think. (correct me if not)
A Gamemaster said to me that the guide is only a guideline.
So its only polit to follow it, but not valid.
But i find the last paragraph points to one problem i talked about: Whatever type of "evil" you are playing, play him consistent. Don't be a fierce robber on one day and, as soon as it gets attractive to take part on the life of a simple citizen, play a friendly villager that takes part on the banquette of the king (where of course many people know him as a robber, but don't act against him, because it is so nice sitting together talking).
@Athian
I Agree with you that the part in the RPG Guide for "Evil Guys" is vague. Thats the reason why its only in the guide
and not in the rules.
@Kyre
I agree its a poor exchange, but how could it solved?
(ingame i had not really a choice)
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Back to my problem with Punishments, i don't meaned the punishment after a conflict, i meaned punishment of
Criminals (Thiefs, Robbers, Murderer, Blackmailer...). Lawbreaker.
If you are a victim of a crime, you can not hope that the Criminal could be punished and he will sit on the campfire
and take part on the normal life.
And if you are a Judge or Townleader you are helpless to save the law.
In this part the opinions are very different. A punishment system is an old Problem in Illarion. One solution in the
past was after a long discussion, that some Charakters (Town guards and others) get a skill, "imprisoning". Wich
teleports a char into prison instantly (I have this skill anymor but without funktion).
So you can see i am not allone with my sight. Now we have the situation that imprison someone is not allowed.
Something changed, what happened?
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I don't played Illarion in the time of the war with the orcs or Trolls Bane so i can't say anything about this time.
And i only speak for myself and about my Opinion.
And i don't like wars, i don't need them for my RP. But i follow the logic of my charakterplay.
Bans, jail time and fines seem like they're fine punishments to me. If there are enough active guards around there is hardly crime in Troll's Bane. Maybe something once a week comes up. I don't think a jailing skill would be needed. The only ways to jail some one are by tying them up, sending them to the cross then the jail and them allowing themselves to go to jail. If they refuse after the cross just call a GM. A system where someone could send you to jail whenever they see fit doesn't seem like it would work well.
Kaidan Firestone wrote:
I also feel that the POs of some temple characters who want to roleplay with people in Trolls bane should just make a new character.
The point is to be able to RP with THAT character.
I dont think any bans or jail times should be for any too long of an amount of time and idefinate bans should also not be allowed.
If you want to sit around a campfire and roleplay a fun conversation with certain characters, why does it need to be with a character that is seen as something just short of pure evil? I understand people get attached to their characters, but there is such a thing as crossing the Rubicon.
I'm cranky and i hate repeating myself over and over, before this erupts into flames I'm going to get 'lockish' as I've so nicely been dubbed topic has outlived its usefulness.
Tialdin wrote:The quest with Mandrel had part on this Atmosphere. One evil
fight against another evil and the "Good Guys" could only win by
doing evil things.
That's a terribly uninformed opinion there.
The whole quest was completely non-linear and completely changed on the fly based on the decisions of the characters. Pressuring them and deception brought out the evil in them, perhaps, but ultimately the decision was theirs. Examples include:
Alvis murdered the dragon because he was under the impression he was going to get something valuable from it. He didn't, it was useless (but I later integrated a purpose for it that wasn't originally planned because I like to tie up loose ends). He later on ended up getting locked in a dungeon. That's karma for you .
On the contrary, the characters were told that they MUST destroy a sacred tree and damage the whole plantlife of the isle. A non violent solution was found and the outcome changed from what was originally going to be absolute mayhem occuring with all of them in serious danger to the whole situation being resolved peacefully with no reprocussions. If anything being good throughout provided larger rewards (even on the "evil" side of the quest, the only character who got to learn what was really going on did so because he was a very agreeable, trustworthy and good person who was only in that situation due to specific circumstances).
