Temple

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Post by Retlak » Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:05 am

Temple

Dear players,

These topics arise once in a while but this one is fairly different. It is just a statement really that I would like to get out there regarding the players of characters associated with the Temple guild.

I'll keep it short and sweet to prevent much of a language barrier (Please excuse my ignorant self for only knowing how to speak English).


I've recently been confronted by a friendly player who asked to speak with me regarding the Temple / players of evil chars. One of the things that was mentioned is that there is a select group of players who choose not to log in while temple characters are online, and that there is a lot of behind-the-back hatred aimed at the players of such characters. This is something that we've known about for some years now, and it is understandable.

The problem is, this is aimed at every player of the Temple characters, not just the ones who actually break rules / start fights etc. I must remind you all that while it is easy to blame a group as a whole, it should really stop at an individual. Ooc hatred is not something that can be easily gotten rid of however there are players of the Temple who prefer to roleplay and are friendly. I play a fully maxed char but I do not run around ctrl clicking to annoy everyone. Myself and others do have a conscience for the fun of others and we enjoy to roleplay where possible.

To finish the post - please do not avoid playing with every player of the Temple, it is very saddening to hear that people choose to log out and throw comments for the action of one bad encounter in the past.

Thank you.

Matt

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Post by Kaidan Firestone » Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:58 am

Re: Temple

Kaidan doesn't like the Temple.

PO Kaidan has no ill will to the characters.

If there are some players who cannot separate themselves from this fantasy game then they should be banned. Plain and simple.

The sort of attitude Matt just described is poisonous and will lead to lots of drama between players that will cause other good players to quit because many of us don't want to play a game that results in OOC backstabbing and plotting.

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Post by Athian » Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:13 am

Re: Temple

Oddly i agree with Kaidan. Griefing does happen in illarion and alot of it is motivated by OOC dislike, however it is often a two way street. Sometimes it is a matter of the overly aggressive, other times it is a matter of those who are overly sensitive. CM's are here to deal with these matters and make sure that they don't get out of hand. However when a player or players decide not to use us in our provided capacity and rather quit playing, I have little sympathy for them. such forms of protest never address or even fix a problem IF there is one to begin with.

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:18 am

Re: Temple

There are also those that sign in seeing a "temple" member knowing on the whole there will be some fun RP :wink: Sometimes I wonder if the online list causes more problems then it is worth but that is an aside. Matt, I don't know who you have been talking to but I have never heard a complaint for the temple as a whole, yes some from maybe a char or two. The basic problem with the temple is it has been around so long that most "evil" deeds are attributed to it yet most of the ones I hear about are not even temple members. I imagine however because the organization and members are fairly secret this can be a disadvantage too.

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Post by Hashim El'djin » Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:58 am

Re: Temple

No offense, but anyone who does this needs to get a life. Not that I've actually heard of it happening.

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Post by nathi » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:13 am

Re: Temple

hej
I try to avoid players then I feel if their rp based on ooc disscusion or hatred. I like a continuos rp even if it a evil rp. Illarion would be boring without evil chars. Thanks to everyone whose shows his char on the online list, this list is very helpfull for rp.
lg nathi

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Post by Alexander Knight » Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:40 pm

Re: Temple

I totally agree!
I've seen both sides of the fence with Alex an ex temple member (be it ages ago) and then a rather pleasent fellow.
Personally I did prefer the darker side of things as it gives alot more freedom but thats not the point.
Imho there is not enough evil chars about.
From what I know there is one "Evil" guild (Temple) and then a few opposing forces (Spearheaded by the bearers of fire).
If anything it's the Temple members who should be the ones not coming online.
When the prince quest was happening and the isle was pretty much split in 2 is when I personally had the most fun.
(Thank you Mesha)

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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: Temple

The temple are a bunch of noobs and Matt powergames!

Anyway, there is a single very important trait / attitude that the temple & associated ("bad players", as Old Korm liked to call them) have, which the rest of the community would do well to adopt. This is the ability to play without bearing endless grudges about stuff which happened IG and to move on. You seldom see the temple players complaining even when the half of the community gangs up on them and beats them. I've always found this really cool, and it's sad that certain other parts of the community seem unable to adopt the same attitude - especially knowing that there are very few long time players around who actually are in the moral position to complain about shit when it comes to the behaviour of others.

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Post by Nalzaxx » Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:41 pm

Re: Temple

I think the term 'bad players' sums up our concerns quite well in this situation. I don't think anyone in the temple is a bad player, and those who have been in the past have been dealt with accordingly by the GMs. However this attitude that assumes that just because the characters we play sometimes tend towards the darker sides means that we, as players, are also bad for the community has to stop. It seems to become more of a question of trying to remove us from the game as players, rather than dealing with our characters appropriately. I've busted my balls in the past few years to calm down the activities of the Temple and to move away from the rather violent past it held specifically because of the OOC animosity that has been directed towards myself and others who play Temple characters. It becomes a case that we are fighting not to further the evil deeds of the Temple, but to even play the game at all.

I have expressed some complaints recently about the activities ingame, but only insofar as I feel they are motivated by OOC prejudices. The fact that a huge army was summoned to combat the 4 or 5 active characters of the Temple I think is testament to this. It may be somewhat paranoid of me to think so, but it did strike me as more of a campaign against the players than the characters. Of course some will take this as a complaint that we lost but in all honesty I personally had no attachment IC or OOC to ruling Bane. I just liked being able to sit at the campfire and talk to people and to be involved in the day to day roleplay of Bane. Something that we are typically not allowed to do unless we hold power. So I think it is understandable that some of us feel a large part of the community got together simply to say, "We don't want you playing Illarion."

I really wish this wasn't the case and that we could work towards providing a situation where there is room to compete in a fun and constructive way that doesn't diminish anyone's ability to play, or enjoyment of the game itself. Perhaps then we can move past the OOC divisions.

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Post by Retlak » Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:57 pm

Re: Temple

Thank you everyone for your understanding of the situation, I know the group of players who have adopted this negative approach to the temple players but I will not post details to anyone for confidentiality reasons. All I ask is for them to read this and understand that there should be no grudge, we're very friendly behind the computer screen.

Thank you

Matt

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Post by Orioli » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:01 pm

Re: Temple

There is an ooc element to the treatment of Temple players. If i say nothing in a rpg forum and maintain no obvious ig association with them, to indicate temple affiliation, even stating the temple does not exist ig, but come out in an ooc thread as temple it becomes obvious. Being Temple is an art and i personally think it made me a better player overall.

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Post by Kaidan Firestone » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:27 pm

Re: Temple

PO Nalzaxx shouldn't have had to change his character's actions due to OOC pressures. That pretty much ruins the game.

On the flip side, I do know OOC bias to the Bearers does exist and indeed some posts here and a couple that popped up on the OOC boards that should have been left in the IC ones also give evidence of that.

The alliance war against the Temple, I do not feel, was in any way OOC motivated. If anyone wants to have a discussion about the reasoning behind certain fractions involvement we may, but I feel most of that should be discussed ingame among characters. But from what I have seen, all the actions and reactions have been about IC dealings.

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Post by Alexander Knight » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:38 pm

Re: Temple

See I see where PO Nalzaxx is coming from but I kind of see it on the flip side.
Yes playing an "Evil" character will sometimes see you banned from town and there for limit the RP but there is an IG/IC reason for that which, for me is totally fine.
Though I do disagree that it would be hard as 99% of places have banned Temple members.

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Post by Djironnyma » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:20 pm

Re: Temple

deleted some spam

To the topic: it will be ever harder to play a char with a real ethic no matter if good or evil. There wil ever be ppl which avoiding playing with you, or complain about you. thats the price you have to play if a neutral char or a char with a pseudo ethic is to boring for you.

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Post by Lrmy » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:07 pm

Re: Temple

The problem isn't that people's characters get banned from towns but rather certain POs have taken it personally. I guess I'm lucky in the sense I think it's funny when people get mad and send angry PMs.
My character is banned from town and would likely be attacked by certain characters if he didn't leave. If I PKed them every time this happened I think it would make things worse. I think some temple POs have shown quite a bit of restraint when their character sees another that openly speaks out against them and tries to slander them in any way possible. But no one wants to have their character PKed every time the bad guys see them even if it's in the bad guy's nature.

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Post by Nalzaxx » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:52 pm

Re: Temple

Djironnyma wrote:deleted some spam

To the topic: it will be ever harder to play a char with a real ethic no matter if good or evil. There wil ever be ppl which avoiding playing with you, or complain about you. thats the price you have to play if a neutral char or a char with a pseudo ethic is to boring for you.
So because I play a character with a questionable past I should accept that people will hate me as a player? I deserve to be the target of such OOC animosity because of the reputation of my character and my guild? If I choose to play a certain type of character I should be punished by the community as a whole?

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Post by Po Will » Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:21 am

Re: Temple

Djironnyma wrote:deleted some spam

To the topic: it will be ever harder to play a char with a real ethic no matter if good or evil. There wil ever be ppl which avoiding playing with you, or complain about you. thats the price you have to play if a neutral char or a char with a pseudo ethic is to boring for you.

Come now Djir, I can understand if you missed the fact this is regarding OOC feelings regarding other players which are conflicting with IG happens but seriously. If people IG stuff IG great! But the moment they start having problems with the player, well that is totally something completely different. :|

But onto the IG stuff. Regarding evil characters ( not saying that the Temple is evil, I'm simply using you guys as a template ) of course you're going to find yourself in a spot where about your going to have problems moving from town to town. But I'd say that's where the joy is, grabbing then wrangling a towns population so that you can move back into a town - when I say wrangle, I mean try to change their opinion through certain acts and such -.

A perfect example might be by saving the town from some attack of some form, I remember back a while ago when mummies were attacking or something then the temple lent a hand.

I'd feel there's a wide range of possibilities in that situation but of course, the moment it goes OOC, that's when you pull out a trout and start smackin'abeitch for being a eejit.

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Post by Alexander Knight » Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:35 am

Re: Temple

Djironnyma wrote:deleted some spam

To the topic: it will be ever harder to play a char with a real ethic no matter if good or evil. There wil ever be ppl which avoiding playing with you, or complain about you. thats the price you have to play if a neutral char or a char with a pseudo ethic is to boring for you.
Come on Dji that was uncalled for mate. Bad form.
He's trying to help players so why cut him short?

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Post by Athian » Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:05 am

Re: Temple

Nalzaxx wrote:
Djironnyma wrote:deleted some spam

To the topic: it will be ever harder to play a char with a real ethic no matter if good or evil. There wil ever be ppl which avoiding playing with you, or complain about you. thats the price you have to play if a neutral char or a char with a pseudo ethic is to boring for you.
So because I play a character with a questionable past I should accept that people will hate me as a player? I deserve to be the target of such OOC animosity because of the reputation of my character and my guild? If I choose to play a certain type of character I should be punished by the community as a whole?
Simple answer is no.

There are things people need to remember.

The fact is that there are no 'evil' players. No player joins this game to become a single constant enemy of another player or group, nor are they there to satiate another players need to 'kick ass'. Adversaries are always going to be present in illarion, they make the game fun and interesting. However the only 'true' evils you will ever get are those played by the GM's for that specific purpose. There really is no excuse for demonizing certain players to the point where they cannot enjoy there time IG, this goes for the 'good' and the 'evil' side. There is a limit to just how much of this kind of action players should be allowed to get away with, sadly in the past it was not enforced very well. when a player or group crosses the limit from Adversarial RP into malicious griefing we'll try to work in out with discussion, if that still does not solve said issue, then expect there to be consequences.

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Post by Djironnyma » Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:26 am

Re: Temple

Nalzaxx wrote:So because I play a character with a questionable past I should accept that people will hate me as a player? I deserve to be the target of such OOC animosity because of the reputation of my character and my guild? If I choose to play a certain type of character I should be punished by the community as a whole?
I dont say it shoud be so, i just say you cant avoid it. We cant change anyone so far that none will ooc emotions/thoughts let have influence to his char/IG (or the other way).

You now i have deal with the same problem, how many complains and insults i have to hear ooc. The most of them i simply ignore. If one goes to far you can call a CM to talk with him or a GM to punish him (if you can proof it).

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Post by Lrmy » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:17 am

Re: Temple

Djironnyma wrote: You now i have deal with the same problem, how many complains and insults i have to hear ooc. The most of them i simply ignore. If one goes to far you can call a CM to talk with him or a GM to punish him (if you can proof it).
He brought it up so maybe some one will read this and come to a realization that there's no hard feelings. That way things don't have to go to far and more people can play together.

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Post by pharse » Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:20 pm

Re: Temple

Just as food for thought:

When I was active, I once played a character that had to oppose the temple guys (due to his guild membership). So there was this moment my char met a temple member. Unfortunately this player obviously assumed that I (the PO) would act like all the other OOC driven players (afterwards he told me so, when I PM'd him), so I didn't even had a chance to prove my fair playing style - and eventually got killed. Conclusion: my char was killed due to a OOC driven assumption of a PO of a temple member although there was no real need to kill the char.

I fully understand your points and such things can happen in the heat of the moment, but on the other side you have to understand aswell that such actions will rather add negative feelings (about the players of temple members) to an actually fair and neutral player.

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Post by Orioli » Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:10 pm

Re: Temple

Just as food for thought:

When I was active, I once played a character that had to oppose the temple guys (due to his guild membership). So there was this moment my char met a temple member. Unfortunately this player obviously assumed that I (the PO) would act like all the other OOC driven players (afterwards he told me so, when I PM'd him), so I didn't even had a chance to prove my fair playing style - and eventually got killed. Conclusion: my char was killed due to a OOC driven assumption of a PO of a temple member although there was no real need to kill the char.

I fully understand your points and such things can happen in the heat of the moment, but on the other side you have to understand aswell that such actions will rather add negative feelings (about the players of temple members) to an actually fair and neutral player.
These things happen in reverse. The point made here being that most Temple players have not held it ooc against the PO or ooc against one group or another. We often even act calmly when no ig reason shows a need not too. And yes we have been pked in the same manner ..unsuspecting.. we keep that result ig. :wink:

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Post by Djironnyma » Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:47 pm

Re: Temple

the temple po's in general neither play or threaten better nor worse than others. Any player have to deal with ooc ig mixing or "bad" rp by other po's. If it disturb anyone to much or destroy his game fun he/she have the option to use the service of the CMs or in havy cases a GMs.

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Post by Tialdin » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:50 pm

Re: Temple

I am the "friendly player" from Retlaks post on the beginning.
I asked him some things in a PM because i wanted to understand
some things. Understanding the player could help to accept his
roleplay more.

One question was, why the Char Retlak don't accept
the ban from Bane, simple answer, he want to make roleplay
and in Bane are the Charakters to do so.
OOC Acceptable, ingame a problem.

I hope all what i write is understandable, english is not
my language...
Don't search for keywords, only think about the opinion behind
the words. For some things i used extrem simile.
(and google for finding words .....)
_____________________________________________________________

Illarion is a game with place for a lot of different forms
of Roleplay and a lot of different players and their opinion
what is Roleplay for them and wich sort of Roleplay they like
or dislike.

So it comes, that we HAVE a lot of different forms.

Problems are coming from the different opinions what
a Player want for a GENERAL sphere in Illarion.

In this part we have so much different opinions like players.
____________________________________________________________
One exampel from the not so far past was the little quest
with Santa Claus bringing presents.

I heard that some players have the opinion that this have no
place in Illarion. Some others have great fun on it.

____________________________________________________________

Another Example are Wars, the first three years
we playd Illarion without any wars. And nobody missed wars.
(The first war started in 2004)
And this war ended with the permantent dead of the
leader of the enemies.

In this time we had a little number of "evil" chars.
The real evil (like Ashkatuul the Deamon)
was GM controled.
The evil Chars were punished hard and sended to prison for
month, so long that they change their mind.

That was another General Sphere in Illarion as now.
____________________________________________________________

Now we have a greater Number of "evil" chars and not really
opportunities to punish them. Prisoning is not allowed,
Fines are not payd everytime. Sending to the Cross help nothing.
(and is sometimes impossible, because of weak "good" chars.)
Bans from the towns are not a good solution for the player
behind the char (Permanent death the same) and difficult to
enforce because nobody can be only 24 hours a day.

Result is a change in the General Sphere, The "Good" can not win.
Criminals are not punished effektiv.
(The quest with Mandrel had part on this Atmosphere. One evil
fight against another evil and the "Good Guys" could only win by
doing evil things.)

It follows, that player do not logg in or quit the game complete.

_____________________________________________________________

And think about one thing, in the real live, would you accept
a satanic sect in your neighbourhood?
Its spoken from THE TEMPLE a shortening of the temple of MOSHRAN.

I know OOC that the temple have changed, but the name not
and members used blackmail, or beeing undead.
It follows, the change is not really visible ingame.

_____________________________________________________________

As i restarted playing Illarion i heard from the Dwarfs ingame.
Don't Enter Trolls Bane, its controlled from the temple. Every
second citizen is member of the temple and Dwarfs are killed on
sight. What happened in that time because of ONE single player
(now banned from Illarion), but member of the temple.

It follows, fighting against the temple make Trolls Bane to a
place where the Dwarfs can enter and now can make Roleplay.

______________________________________________________________

Thanks for reading and please think before answering.

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Post by Kyre » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:45 pm

Re: Temple

It is sounding like the changing of Trolls Bane allows one to enter and roleplay.. another not and vice versa never the twain shall meet? This sounds like a very poor exchange. I also don't think it matters oocly why the PO's char refuses the ban.. only why the char does but that is just me, as far as Retlak, I don't recall the char ever NOT being banned from Trolls Bane so would just assume he would ignore it by now.

A big change from two years ago in my opinion is the "expansion" of the town to include surrounding territories effectively preventing a wide area of roleplay where before, banned chars/PO's could still get good roleplay from the ones leaving town i.e outside the gates in the form of duels etc. I totally agree one player grieving can ruin it for a lot of players, some however may automatically attribute certain players to the temple when they are not. I would suggest a temporary solution on the spur of the moment is to only ban from the immediate town, not from the territory in order not to block roleplay from banned chars.

As an aside, personally not involved in the temple rolplay, however knowing most of the PO's and chars, I would much rather ban a char disallowing voting etc. on a specific act of that char and not the "group" as a whole because they happen to be a member of a guild that some members caused trouble to Trolls Bane in the past, and find it sad they have to defend their choice of RP oocly along with their guild.

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Post by Alexander Knight » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:02 pm

Re: Temple

Kyre wrote: As an aside, personally not involved in the temple rolplay, however knowing most of the PO's and chars, I would much rather ban a char disallowing voting etc. on a specific act of that char and not the "group" as a whole because they happen to be a member of a guild that some members caused trouble to Trolls Bane in the past, and find it sad they have to defend their choice of RP oocly along with their guild.
You must also remember that the Temple is meant to be THE evil guild.
As a personal opinion I believe they should be banned from a few towns as atm they don't really seem evil, more slightly annoyed.
Most of it's members remain hidden (even OOC due to metagaming issues I guess) so they could always do the ground work like recruiting members and propaganda and the others could do rituals and rape and burn something :) Or cloak up and hide in TB somewhere lol

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Post by Athian » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:56 pm

Re: Temple

@ Tialdin

Illarion is not a world where the 'good' guys must always win. I think some people mistake this game for a story book with a singular ending rather then a progressive world. I can take every point you've made and throw it right back at you. The 'good' guys label themselves good, refuse to lose and refuse to accept consequences they feel are unfair upon there characters. When Trollsbane defeated Silverbrand, Silverbrand was not heavily punished, you were not asked to perma your characters and I know for a fact you would have never agreed to this. Silverbrand in fact was given no form of permanent loss. I imagine that there were plenty of people who found this extremely frustrating as well. If you use the excuse that it is because 'Silverbrand' is no evil then you only end up speaking hypocrisy. You wouldn't give up your home, you wouldn't have all dwarves banned from it, you'd have fought tooth and nail OOC and raised a fuss with every member of the staff if that were to happen.

You do not receive extra liberties because you believe you characters to be good and someone else to be evil. IF your side is frustrated that the can't kill off there enemies then no doubt your enemies feel the same way. Except that in this case your 'enemies' have been mature enough to work around this point, while apparently some people on the other side are unable to do the same and then feel they must stop playing...honestly I find this to be no big loss.

Perhaps in the future we need to work out some rules of engagement for these big types of struggles that will be enforced by the GM's. So that there are some better punishments for those who lose a conflict (not just EVIL people) and everyone can play on even ground.

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Post by Kaidan Firestone » Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:00 pm

Re: Temple

The jail should be allowed again, but there would need to be a solution to prevent mages from just teleporting themselves/their friends out 5 minutes later.

Otherwise I do agree with Athian that what can happen to the bad characters should happen to good as well.

I also feel that the POs of some temple characters who want to roleplay with people in Trolls bane should just make a new character.

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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:05 pm

Re: Temple

Athian wrote:@ Tialdin

Illarion is not a world where the 'good' guys must always win. I think some people mistake this game for a story book with a singular ending rather then a progressive world. I can take every point you've made and throw it right back at you. The 'good' guys label themselves good, refuse to lose and refuse to accept consequences they feel are unfair upon there characters. When Trollsbane defeated Silverbrand, Silverbrand was not heavily punished, you were not asked to perma your characters and I know for a fact you would have never agreed to this. Silverbrand in fact was given no form of permanent loss. I imagine that there were plenty of people who found this extremely frustrating as well. If you use the excuse that it is because 'Silverbrand' is no evil then you only end up speaking hypocrisy. You wouldn't give up your home, you wouldn't have all dwarves banned from it, you'd have fought tooth and nail OOC and raised a fuss with every member of the staff if that were to happen.

You do not receive extra liberties because you believe you characters to be good and someone else to be evil. IF your side is frustrated that the can't kill off there enemies then no doubt your enemies feel the same way. Except that in this case your 'enemies' have been mature enough to work around this point, while apparently some people on the other side are unable to do the same and then feel they must stop playing...honestly I find this to be no big loss.

Perhaps in the future we need to work out some rules of engagement for these big types of struggles that will be enforced by the GM's. So that there are some better punishments for those who lose a conflict (not just EVIL people) and everyone can play on even ground.

When Silverbrand lost to orcs... ;)

Anyway, same story - declaring war, losing and busting the balls of the other side ooc over the consequences. Why ask for something from other players which you (and the group of PO's you represent in the debate) are unwilling to give yourself, Tialdin?

Ps. There has never been as bellicose, oathbreaking and sour-losing bunch in Illarion as the dwarves of silverbrand. These are the good guys? Pff. :P

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