Anachronism's in Illarion

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Hashim El'djin
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Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Hashim El'djin »

I guess I'll start this thread by saying that a big draw of the game for me is the medieval background. I'm a history buff, and I love that era (not necessarily for swords/shields, but for the politics, culture, society and drama which came with it all).

As such, for me anyway, realism IG makes things 10x better.

So, I'm wondering what people really thought about the Noble/feudalistic governing set up in Bane which has now been abandoned. Did the majority of you dislike it? If so why?

I guess the issue for me are the anachronisms. In the world of Illarion, people shouldn't be marxists, or have pseudo modern day concepts about things such as sexism, racism, and class. Thats not to say people can't play characters with modern day views, but they should definitely be a small minority, and generally viewed as illogical by the rest.

What I'm trying to say is what do you all think about the game being played with a more realistic feel in relation to the era? Do you care? Do you hate the idea? Do you agree with it?

Let's take sexism for example. As far as I'm aware, the world of Illarion has not yet had 'women's lib'. It is still a feudalistic, patriarchal society. Feminism in the modern sense should not exist.

It may be difficult for some people to get their head round, since we all live in the modern world. But after all, this is a roleplaying game. People playing 21st century people in a swords and sorcery environment may as well be WOW.

Course, there may well be groups where views like; people should rule collectively, men and women are equal, etc exist in some form, but there should be a reason for why they came to that position. Also, any other anachronisms people might want to point out?

Anyway thats all I had to say. Wondered what people thought.
Grokk
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Grokk »

Hashim El'djin wrote:So, I'm wondering what people really thought about the Noble/feudalistic governing set up in Bane which has now been abandoned. Did the majority of you dislike it? If so why?
I like the idea of feudalism in Troll's Bane. But I dislike the way that it was implemented in this last instance. It was lazy. Just like any IG government, you need the right players behind it. And unless you have another Prince Quest or something, it just seems nonsensical for an existing settlement to move 'back' to a Noble system.
Hashim El'djin wrote:I guess the issue for me are the anachronisms. In the world of Illarion, people shouldn't be marxists, or have pseudo modern day concepts about things such as sexism, racism, and class. Thats not to say people can't play characters with modern day views, but they should definitely be a small minority, and generally viewed as illogical by the rest.
Eh, it's a tough one. Here is where people are going to bring up that 'Illarion is not a reflection of real life' (despite so much of it being near identical). Because Illarion is a world of its own with magic and elves, you can't compare it to real life and you can't possibly know whether an idea could or could not exist at a particular time. For all we know, the world of Illarion could currently be in a time that corresponds to the present time in the real world. I don't think you can call these concepts anachronisms, at the least.
Hashim El'djin wrote:What I'm trying to say is what do you all think about the game being played with a more realistic feel in relation to the era? Do you care? Do you hate the idea? Do you agree with it?
I agree with you. I'd much rather it was played with a consistent medieval feel. Everything points to that era, let's just acknowledge it and move on. I think it would make things much simpler, and more interesting too.
Hashim El'djin wrote:Also, any other anachronisms people might want to point out?
I've found philosophy, especially that of religion, to be a relatively common one. People trying to use an argument that they have obviously discussed with a Christian at some point in their lives to disprove the existence of the Illarion Gods. That works in the real world, where the existence of a deity cannot be logically proven, but it is complete nonsense in the context of Illarion, where the existence of the Gods is taken as fact.
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Brighteyes
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Brighteyes »

Well, I think feminism in Illarion did exist for a while now, seeing as how there are many woman warriors, guild leaders, and the former Archduchess was, in fact, a woman.

Aside from that, looking into history all depended on the culture, time, and place. Greece for example, never came close to a constricting level of dictatorship that monarchy in England did.

So, albeit having a medieval resemblance setting, Illarion is unique. Sure, you can kind of compare its technology to a time period, but what place on Earth would you look at to compare it to? Medieval Germany? Medieval England?
Illarion is not medieval Earth, most would agree, and despite having no technological progress of modern society, there could very well be social innovations. For one, magic is something that throws all and any comparison to real history out of proportion. But the wiki outlines Mainland culture settings somewhat detailed. I got an impression that Salkamar is compared to Rome, and Albar is compared to England.

I think there is plenty of both feudal and democratic system even on Gobaith. And the range of preference seems wide. There is a kingdom, silverbrand, a religious clergy, the Zyathis, a "technocratic dictatorship" of the Bearers in Varshikar, tribal order in Nordmark, and Troll's Bane seems to be fluctuating between systems, Mayor, Governor, Usurper, Council.

So, is this a question about Illarion in general or about Troll's Bane in particular, in lue of events that just happened to it?
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Juliana D'cheyne
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Juliana D'cheyne »

As a medieval fantasy game I don't expect it to be realistic and to encourage as much variety of roleplay as possible still staying in the thankfully fairly scarce history I wouldn't presume to tell another they couldn't be "sexist" etc. In fact I think my female chars would be bored if it was similar to the medieval.

My personal preference is to see more of a feudal system politically, punishments fitting the era, along with medieval medicine.. i.e. leeches etc. At first I thought the teleporter and portal were out of place :wink:
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Hashim El'djin
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Hashim El'djin »

Grokk wrote: I like the idea of feudalism in Troll's Bane. But I dislike the way that it was implemented in this last instance. It was lazy. Just like any IG government, you need the right players behind it. And unless you have another Prince Quest or something, it just seems nonsensical for an existing settlement to move 'back' to a Noble system.
Yes fair point. I don't think it was implemented particularly well either, but it definitely had far greater potential for rp than the old system (at least imo).
Eh, it's a tough one. Here is where people are going to bring up that 'Illarion is not a reflection of real life' (despite so much of it being near identical). Because Illarion is a world of its own with magic and elves, you can't compare it to real life and you can't possibly know whether an idea could or could not exist at a particular time. For all we know, the world of Illarion could currently be in a time that corresponds to the present time in the real world. I don't think you can call these concepts anachronisms, at the least.
Its not a reflection of real life no; but many of the attitudes IG ARE a reflection of real life, just a 21st century one. Like it or not none of the cultures or races ig are what I'd describe as truly fantastical or Alien. I agree 100% with Brighteyes when she says that Albar seems to mirror a medieval monarchy like England whilst Salkamar mirrors a Roman culture.

I've found philosophy, especially that of religion, to be a relatively common one. People trying to use an argument that they have obviously discussed with a Christian at some point in their lives to disprove the existence of the Illarion Gods. That works in the real world, where the existence of a deity cannot be logically proven, but it is complete nonsense in the context of Illarion, where the existence of the Gods is taken as fact.
Agreed 100%. I think religion is way underutilised in Illarion, and could play a much bigger role. I love the idea of praying to a certain god resulting in genuine interactions with that god (gm-controlled). Gives things that mythical ancient greek kind of feel.
As a medieval fantasy game I don't expect it to be realistic and to encourage as much variety of roleplay as possible still staying in the thankfully fairly scarce history I wouldn't presume to tell another they couldn't be "sexist" etc. In fact I think my female chars would be bored if it was similar to the medieval.
I feel ya. :P That said, I disagree that women in the medieval period were necessarily 'boring'. They just had to be much more creative in how they gained power and exerted influence. Of course, they nearly all had to be members of the nobility to do so, but the poor were basically screwed whether male or female.
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Djironnyma
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Djironnyma »

As it was said, i doubt that you can compare illarion with the real life medieval age. actually bane are the only place where ppl call for democracy and some of them not for vote but just because they are opposite to the new rulers. Even Vanima is no real democracy, the elders are voted on lifetime (or on activ time :mrgreen: ) and anyway more advisor's than rulers.

The history of illarion has anyway shown that the most important point is not how a ruler come in power, it is much more important how active and how friendly (to his own ppl as to the other guilds) he is.
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Brighteyes
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Brighteyes »

The poor were basically screwed whether male or female.
/signed.

But, in Illarion, there are no poor people, who stay poor for long. Unless you are actively trying to stay poor, or are extraordinarily unlucky, anyone can be rich within a week. Be it hunting skeletons or farming, or fishing, there is always a way to make a few coin and those add up quickly.

And honestly, we all know fighting is the class that pays most, which is actually historically accurate.
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Athian
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Athian »

Brighteyes wrote:
The poor were basically screwed whether male or female.
/signed.

But, in Illarion, there are no poor people, who stay poor for long. Unless you are actively trying to stay poor, or are extraordinarily unlucky, anyone can be rich within a week. Be it hunting skeletons or farming, or fishing, there is always a way to make a few coin and those add up quickly.

And honestly, we all know fighting is the class that pays most, which is actually historically accurate.
Some better money sinks int he future will give people more incentive to spend there coins rather the simply sit atop a growing pile. Hopefully it will separate the rich (those who can make a gold coins some of the time) form the consistently profitable.

p.s. fighting currently does not begin to compare to the wealth a mage can make in an average day. Something else that could do with a little balance :wink:
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H.Banestone
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by H.Banestone »

I think brighteyes meant fighting as in killing monsters in general, not fighter as a class. In that sense a mage is actually a fighter :mrgreen:
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GolfLima
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by GolfLima »

there are poor players in Gobaith. Try to play a nonfighter :arrow: it will be difficult to become rich.
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Orioli
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Orioli »

There were amazonian type women who partnered with Serinjah. Read the history. Not all cultures had it but it existed in illarion lore. This isn't midevial earth. It is a fantasy land with a history and culture of its own. read the background and brush up on what has happened over the years here and you will see it is very common in this world. You cant just dictate to change that. Yes this is modern day illarion as it where. Some of us evolved. :roll:
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Hashim El'djin
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Hashim El'djin »

Orioli wrote:There were amazonian type women who partnered with Serinjah. Read the history. Not all cultures had it but it existed in illarion lore. This isn't midevial earth. It is a fantasy land with a history and culture of its own. read the background and brush up on what has happened over the years here and you will see it is very common in this world. You cant just dictate to change that. Yes this is modern day illarion as it where. Some of us evolved. :roll:
I know. I mentioned that certain small groups differed in the OP.
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Piotnik
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Piotnik »

Well, there are poor players. But no one of them has to starve like many people in the medieval age. Even in the depths of the winter.
Also there is much more public domain (or at least ressources accessible to anybody), just like mines, farmland or equipment(mills, workbenches etc.). If these things/ressources would be more limited (by number, ownership, tearing/fading...), money and power would fluctuate much more.

PS: Sorry for this capitalistic comment :mrgreen:
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Lrmy
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Lrmy »

Since everyone had to come up with a story as to how and why their character came to be alone on an island, we get viewpoints that might even be out there for Illarion. That mixed with the fact that we all live on present day earth and pretend to be people living in a world we know relatively little about would tend to resemble present day more than medieval earth. Maybe someone smarter :lol: and that has more time could come up with a list of questions that asks how you would act in certain circumstances that might happen to one's character in Illarion. If you answered the questions as your character would it might help you get a better idea how to play them. Like the test we had to take to join some years ago. Only, don't make it a test and just post it in the forums. I don't know.. maybe it's unnecessary... but it couldn't hurt.
Grokk
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Grokk »

I like that idea.

There should definitely be some guides/help on these forums for new (and old) roleplayers, especially for things such as character creation.
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Vern Kron
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Vern Kron »

I've typed this up a few times, and ended up ranting far too long on the matter.

To sum it up: Troll's Bane is NOT like the mainland in many matters, and for many reasons. Some for legitimate reasons, such as cultural blending. Others, due to it being a good place for new players to start.

As such, I do not believe that there needs to be an 'intended' shift in the culture of the town. If you wish to make a character who is sexist and otherwise, feel free. Put them into power, see how it works. Intentionally using ooc means to shift the feel of a town is not what ought to happen. The culture of Troll's Bane was established through years of playing, and these can be changed. It will simply take time, but it will also be met with much resistance.

In abbreviated points, here is how I see the culture of the game (in the sense of sexism and others):

Those characters who have stronger attachment to their background, will enter with some form of bias. Those with less attachment, or who have seen reasons against such things (too much against those things could place them in the first category, mind you) will simply roll with what the island is doing.

Troll's Bane is a blend of people from different backgrounds. Always has been, always will be. They had to work together to survive. At the end of the day, no character actually wants to die of starvation due to lack of ability to get along. Even a hermit will say please for some food.

This need of survival eventually gave way to different ways of government, and in the end both democracy and monarchy was created. Both are in the town's past, and both are legitimate because of that.

Modern day view points in the game, such as equality and otherwise also had to be picked up. There are/were amazing female fighters. There are great male cooks. When a tournament is held, and half the victors in crafting are women, there is a legitimate cause of equality. (And this has occurred.)

Belief in the gods comes in three forms, denial, picking one as favorite and acknowledging all the others, or worshiping them all. Ignorance of who they are does not stand on Gobiath. A character may not believe in their existence (although there is a history lesson to be done IG about why they do exist) they would atleast know the names. Thus, a piece of all of the cultures has been mixed, in acknowledgement of religion.

Then comes races. Troll's Bane, as a starter town cannot come off too hard on racism as a whole. If the whole town was racist against orc, and a new player makes an orc, most likely that player would quit. A few characters who are racist in Troll's Bane, while others are not, would get scolded for such treatment. Thus, racism would have to be kept behind closed doors, and to a point that it would drive a new player character to a group they could associate with.

Elitism in Troll's Bane has, and always will, exist. Each person in town has a preference as to what group of people rule, or what sort of person rules. Due to the nature of Troll's Bane, this results in power struggles. Good rp if done correctly, annoying/rude/bad if done incorrectly.

Troll's Bane has a connection with each aspect of the mainland, and with each part of the island. It is the gateway point for the rest of the game. It is highly important in that manner, because it has to be conducive to most play styles as well as welcoming for new players. It is placed strategically on the map and is a cross roads. Troll's Bane has developed its own culture, and its own people. A person who has just arrived on the mainland would be just as any other foreigner would be. Different. As they get introduced into the town though, either they begin to change and feel comfortable, stay and try to force their culture onto others, or they move to a town that better suits them. Maintaining this sort of culture, or bending it somewhat is part of the job of a leader. Remember however, that simply because a person is a leader does not mean that anyone is following them.
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Orioli
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Orioli »

Vern Kron wrote: Remember however, that simply because a person is a leader does not mean that anyone is following them.
Well said. Bring back Artimer please. We need him.
Fooser
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Fooser »

I think when you're talking about a game you should leave nitpicking about realism at the door. Should female characters (also usually female players) get less out of everything than male characters/players? No. Should only a tiny fraction of players be able to jump into political RP? No. Illarion never really conformed perfectly to medieval mindsets and probably for the better as more people are allowed to participate/contribute to more things.
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Elijah »

A noble, feudal system would work if it was implemented and actually RPed well.


Anyway, why does it seem like this is the fiftieth time there has been a discussion based around realism in the game?
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Lrmy
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Lrmy »

Elijah wrote: Anyway, why does it seem like this is the fiftieth time there has been a discussion based around realism in the game?
Sooo.. it never hurts to bring it up.
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Nikolaus
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Nikolaus »

Lrmy wrote:
Elijah wrote: Anyway, why does it seem like this is the fiftieth time there has been a discussion based around realism in the game?
Sooo.. it never hurts to bring it up.

*Starts magic system discussion number 42 and gets flamed hard*
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Hashim El'djin
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Hashim El'djin »

I think people misunderstood me a bit. I wasn't necessarily saying that everyone had to rp a character from medieval Europe. Its a fantastical game with its own world where people can be creative.

What I was saying was that in this scenario people playing characters who barely differ from someone living in the 21st century is what I find disappointing.
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Damien »

Oh yes, that is indeed a disappointing thing.

However, concerning "female iberties" etc: Even here, you have to keep in mind that illarion itself mirrors a background where people "migrated" to the island from very different cultures.

Look at the different human cultures : Albarian culture is, let's say, the "opposite" of female liberty. Salkamaerian nobles make no real difference between genders, anyhow females are much rarer to join their military structure, their legion. Gynkese don't care about male or female, as long as they're rich. Norodaj treat their females equal, however opinions and habits differ from tribe to tribe - the further noth, the less albarian influence one might see. The Serinjah are ruled by both males and females, and no male would risk being scolded by his grandmother...
When you look at other races, you'll find dwarves and elves and lizards first, who might not even understand why humans could be so stupid to make gender an important thing in politics at all. Especially the lizards, who need to sniff or take a closer look at lower tail scale colourings to find out which gender they#re dealing with... :lol:
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Alexander Knight
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Alexander Knight »

I say we turn Trolls Bane into a Kingdom. It's got a Knighthood and a jester/queen (Brer)
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Anon of D'Athen
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Re: Anachronism's in Illarion

Post by Anon of D'Athen »

I'm working on it oocly, mate.
;) just support the good RPers, kingdom or no.
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