To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

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Post by Jupiter » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:12 pm

To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

There he stood, my char, in front of his chest, doing the painful job (and also painful for his players wrist) of checking and sorting herbs. And then it came - a force, called GM, thinking I might not be there, leaving my char alone in this dark, dark cave. A bee appeared and attacked the weak druid, who had not one single skill of active fighting. His player, who always wanted his char to stay pacifistic and refused to let his char attack now this little insect, but also did not want him to die because of small but many, many stitches, decided to let the char fled from his cave. And there he stood - and waited.

I wrote a !gm, right one or two minutes after the bee was spawned. Did I get answer? No. And I waited some minutes. If you really think it is necessary to spawn monsters near idling chars (which I haven't done in fact) you could at least wait a bit for a reaction and for sure you should answer a !gm.

A bee is just a small thing. But it is a huge, if you don't want your char to get any active fighting skills and you can't lure it away, because the cave is just accessible by ladder.

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Post by Jupiter » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:23 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

Thanks to vilarion, the evil bee has gone!

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Post by Nalzaxx » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:10 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

To be honest the practice of monster spawning next to idling characters is a terrible one and should be discontinued.

GM's have a perfectly good kick button that they should be using in exactly these sorts of situations.

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Post by Lrmy » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:14 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

Or at least they could give you five minutes because sometimes people go afk without logging out from time to time. Once I had a goblin summoned on me after like twenty seconds of not talking and just waiting around town.

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Post by Grim_banned » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:29 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

Not to mention that it has often happened to me for the game to freeze and my char to remain stuck IG for at least a few minutes. Logging in to find my char clouded in the middle of Bane would definitely make me quit.

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Post by Kyre » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:31 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

Being kicked is not much fun either though when sorting your depot. Thanks to whichever GM decided to come and just talk to my char...that happened twice and I appreciate the time and the fun roleplay from the boring task of sorting.

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Post by Aegohl » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:18 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

It's especially ridiculous because it's not like people are macroing skills here or something while they're idle. And as long as they're not in someone's way, what's the problem with having someone on? That it makes it look that there are more players online so other players log in?

If they're in a public place, send them a message. Honestly, I wouldn't hold it against Jupiter to send in a complaint.

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Post by Felbion Lijawyn » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:20 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

Aegohl wrote:It's especially ridiculous because it's not like people are macroing skills here or something while they're idle. And as long as they're not in someone's way, what's the problem with having someone on? That it makes it look that there are more players online so other players log in?

If they're in a public place, send them a message. Honestly, I wouldn't hold it against Jupiter to send in a complaint.
Idling is forbidden because you get rid of the skillcap 3 times as fast while your character is logged in.

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Post by Qeewee » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:22 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

Felbion Lijawyn wrote:
Aegohl wrote:It's especially ridiculous because it's not like people are macroing skills here or something while they're idle. And as long as they're not in someone's way, what's the problem with having someone on? That it makes it look that there are more players online so other players log in?

If they're in a public place, send them a message. Honestly, I wouldn't hold it against Jupiter to send in a complaint.
Idling is forbidden because you get rid of the skillcap 3 times as fast while your character is logged in.
Then the skillcap system could be changed

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Post by Felbion Lijawyn » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:24 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

Qeewee wrote:
Felbion Lijawyn wrote:
Aegohl wrote:It's especially ridiculous because it's not like people are macroing skills here or something while they're idle. And as long as they're not in someone's way, what's the problem with having someone on? That it makes it look that there are more players online so other players log in?

If they're in a public place, send them a message. Honestly, I wouldn't hold it against Jupiter to send in a complaint.
Idling is forbidden because you get rid of the skillcap 3 times as fast while your character is logged in.
Then the skillcap system could be changed
I think Estralis already said somewhere, that the skilling system will be changed with the VBU so we shouldn't bother about that. But till then, couldn't we just get rid of the rule against idling? I mean people who want to idle for pg-sake will do it either way, no matter if it's forbidden or not and what Aeghol said actually makes quite some sense. (more players on the online list, game looks more attractive to new players / more popular)

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Post by Nikolaus » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:30 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

Yay...and then you go to a city and talk to someone..but he doenst answer because is afk.
You turn around ...but NO, the other person is afk too.

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Post by Aegohl » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:34 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

Like I said, if someone's in a public area, send them a message. Kick people who don't answer in a couple of minutes. However, don't PK them for it. I've quit game for less. Illarion is a game for a niche audience and there are crazy tons of games directed at the same niche audience. Don't send your community to other people. =D

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Post by Felbion Lijawyn » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:50 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

Thing is, sometimes you just forget to log out. About three months ago, I was logged in with my fighter and was about to go off when someone asked something on msn. So I clicked on the msn-window, answered and the phone rang. I went down to answer the phone and by the time I was done I had completely forgotten about Illa. We had dinner and when I came back my char was dead and some of his items were gone, including the only armor my (at that point still low-skilled and therefor quite poor) war had had. If you don't wanna allow players to idle, just send them a message and if they haven't answered within let's say 5 minutes +/-, kick them. But don't spawn monsters next to them. ESPECIALLY not poisonous stuff that will kill you even when you're a skilled char simply because you have no antidotes. (The message shown before the cross-thingie was that saliva drips out of my char's mouth)

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Post by Aegohl » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:56 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

I'd also like to mention that it's kind of ungodly hard to gain skill at Illarion for a couple of reasons. I've played at servers that allow you to macro your skills while you're reading a book or watching tv in real life and the end result is unsurprisingly not altogether game-ruining. The fact is that most of us would rather be doing something else other than repeatedly killing the same stuff or doing the same action (there are exceptions. I'm sure Konny is somewhere grinding right now and loving it) and would probably still be ingame if we had max skills, maybe, I don't know, being social, helping newbies out, going on adventures that consist of more than fighting one mob. While that's no reason to let people idle freely, it is a reason to chill a little.

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Post by Llama » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:59 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

A game I used to play used to note that you were not moving very much and would give you a popup window with some text to type in. You typed that text in and its fine.

We could do something like that - fully automated, and automatically kick those who are still idling. Its far better than spawning monsters on them.

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Post by Jupiter » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:12 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

@Aegohl

Depends on what person you are. Yesterday, I reached 100% herb lore. I play this char for five yeras now, and for five years, he collects herbs; full-blood druid even without a system :P
This is my first 100%-Skill at all.
And there are others who nearly max their fighting skills on a weekend.
Aegohl wrote:Honestly, I wouldn't hold it against Jupiter to send in a complaint.
Vilraion helped me fast and since GMs are human beings, too, they can also make mistakes. That was the reason I thought it was not needed to make a complaint and a topic in genreal would be enough. But to be honest, I am rather disappointed that I got no reaction by the GM. Not to my !gm in first place, what was bad enough, but also not this topic. If you do a mistake, you normally say 'I'm sorry'

But, well, the GM has to deal with being impolite. Even on the internet, kindness is no shame.

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Post by Nomos » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:05 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

Some interesting points here and mostly I agree with BUT idling in public areas or building shadows close to such will get a kick from me if there is no timely response. I’ve seen a good few times players trying to interact with idle chars, one or two even thinking they were NPCs. Sure we all get caught out now and then so a kick to log back in later is no big deal.

However, I don’t agree with spawning monsters next to players AFK in game for them to be ghosted. That said I have seen a few idle ghosts both from monster and player attacks, idle at your own risk.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:40 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

Wasn't me, either, but since I read my name above, I'd like to clarify: There is indeed a conception for a sophisticated skill system that fixes many if not all of the current problems. With this system, you could idle as long as you like, you won't have any benefit like you have now (what's that for a game that awards you doing nothing... :shock:). But you also wouldn't have any drawback, so you could idle all day long, whatever suits you best.

What we lack is manpower to realise this conception. We work hard on many things the game currently hasn't; we have a working skill system, so it is not main prioritity to code a new one. But it is on the list of things to do!

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Post by Colin Smalls » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:30 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

No way, I hate idling, it ruins the immersion.

The skillcap rule sucks also however.

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Post by Aegohl » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:54 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

Roleplay is not immersion and if it is in your case, you're doing it wrong. =)

What roleplay is is consensual storytelling. You can't have consensual storytelling with someone who isn't there, but it doesn't stop you from doing it with someone else.

This is a point I regularly bring up and I actually fear for your psychological health and social wellbeing if someone not talking to you and/or reacting to you ruins your ability to do what you do. I could understand if you might say it's disappointing to run into someone who won't play with you (and idle people can't play with you) but to suggest it ruins immersion or even ruins your fun... I don't agree and I hope for your sake you don't really mean it.

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Post by Llama » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:01 am

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

Aegohl wrote:I could understand if you might say it's disappointing to run into someone who won't play with you (and idle people can't play with you) but to suggest it ruins immersion or even ruins your fun...
If we ever meet in real life I will stare at you incessantly, and not talk or react to any action that you do. See what you think of that :P

Joking aside, I do hate it when there are a bunch of people ignoring me, makes me feel underappriciated.

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Post by Colin Smalls » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:22 am

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

Aegohl wrote:Roleplay is not immersion and if it is in your case, you're doing it wrong. =)

What roleplay is is consensual storytelling. You can't have consensual storytelling with someone who isn't there, but it doesn't stop you from doing it with someone else.

This is a point I regularly bring up and I actually fear for your psychological health and social wellbeing if someone not talking to you and/or reacting to you ruins your ability to do what you do. I could understand if you might say it's disappointing to run into someone who won't play with you (and idle people can't play with you) but to suggest it ruins immersion or even ruins your fun... I don't agree and I hope for your sake you don't really mean it.
Lol, it doesn't ruin my ability to have fun. Immersion was perhaps too strong a term. Its basically just annoying. :lol:

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Post by Copper Dragon » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:16 am

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

Llama wrote:
Aegohl wrote:I could understand if you might say it's disappointing to run into someone who won't play with you (and idle people can't play with you) but to suggest it ruins immersion or even ruins your fun...
If we ever meet in real life I will stare at you incessantly, and not talk or react to any action that you do. See what you think of that :P

Joking aside, I do hate it when there are a bunch of people ignoring me, makes me feel underappriciated.

But we love you Llama :lol:

Now to the point. It is frustration but you simply go on by and find someone else or do something else you enjoy in the game. If you have to go afk, hide a bit. Be in a building or behind a tree. Simply put, don't be in a main walk way and be afk or let some around you know your afk so they can watch out for you. Just don't overdo it. And thats my two copper on the subject.

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Post by Aegohl » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:42 am

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

Would it be hard to script something so that you could type, say, "#afk" and above your head it will say "<character name>(afk)" and after a couple minutes it kicks you?

That would make it safe to go pee while not allowing you to abuse the system.

While I'm making suggestions, any chance we can remove the exact time that you started your account from the information to the left there? I just don't want to know exactly what I was doing six years ago at six in the morning on March 29th.. I don't know why that strikes me as creepy but it does.

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Post by Kyre » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:07 am

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

I don't really understand the problem with afk but have no problem logging in and out either. When my char is alone and I need to leave the computer, I just log. It is usually only if with someone I go afk for a couple of minutes or it might look "funny" my char suddenly appearing again.

However most games have rules about afk with a time limit, once that is exceeded they are kicked. If a GM doesn't know how long the afk has been, they can 1. either stick around for the time then kick.. 2. talk to the char a little.. then come back to kick.

PS The time IS a little creepy.. I also find the exact age on the birthday announcement at the bottom of the forum a little strange since most forums don't post the age.

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Post by Rekarafi » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:08 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

Sometimes it just happens that you have to go afk. You get a call, you are forced away from your computer by some annoying real life matters or whatever.

You can't expect people to think about pressing ESC all the time.

How about a suggestion? If you idle doing nothing ingame (not walking, typing, sorting things in your bag) for a couple of minutes your skill cap stops fading. It also does when you switch out of the Illarion window and do sth. else. So you could idle without any problem, you would just not get any benefits from it.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

That's the plan, basically.

We don't lack ideas, we lack hands that type code on keyboards :-).

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Post by Nomos » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:05 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

Why does it need scripts, over head tags and the like, just use a little Illa etiquette and don't idle in 'public' areas and main walks, job done and no dev time wasted.

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Post by H.Banestone » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:23 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

Rekarafi wrote:How about a suggestion? If you idle doing nothing ingame (not walking, typing, sorting things in your bag) for a couple of minutes your skill cap stops fading. It also does when you switch out of the Illarion window and do sth. else. So you could idle without any problem, you would just not get any benefits from it.
Is the point of this to remove annoying idlers who had a legitimate reason to go afk, or powergamers from going afk to wait out skillcap?
If this is about removing idlers, a kick would suffice, and there's no need to involve skillcap.
If this is meant to stop people from training efficiently, it's probably not going to work, and the more complex system you design, the more challenge it is for a grinder to try and go around it.
This, for instance, fairly exploitable. Walk yourself into a mountain and jam the walk key. Client keeps sending the walk signal, and you guaranteed to not go anywhere. Or they will just start going into whisper and run macros for emotes.

If you truly want to eradicate powergamers, and that is, completely, you have to wipe all chars, and get a new system in, where skill points are granted based on roleplay value. I.E. a rating system, if players award points to other players, their chars gain skill points. Like, you could have something like "whose rp did you like today" but automated and linked to skill gain.
But again, like any system, this is also exploitable and will quickly lead to mutual RP-approvals and popularity contests. The current profile rating system is a good proof of that.

You'd literally have to make PGing impossible, like, award x skill points to be gained per day, at login. You login, and blam, you have them all to distribute as you wish, and you cannot gain more till next 24 hours. And make that unchangeable, fixed, static for everyone. If you login, you get those points, if you don't, you don't.
Fix all characters to have same learning rate. Then, you will get rid of powergamers, and only people who login every day - will have high skill. But that hardly makes them powergamers, it just makes them active participants.

Basic premise of the problem: if there is a condition that allows one character to level up faster than another, a form of powergamer will emerge.

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Post by Aegohl » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:44 pm

Re: To the monster spawning not to !gm answering GM

Personally, I haven't found a game yet where the skill system answers the problems that the staff builds it to answer. People just make assumptions that it should be this way or that and don't take a logical view of what they're doing.

Powergaming sucks at Illarion because there's no overall skill cap. You can max out all skills equally which is not only not realistic (like i'd care if it's realistic) it doesn't encourage interaction. At other games I have to make a tough decision about what skills I need and what skills I don't. I buy item X from player A to make item Y because I don't have skill Z to make item X. I don't have room for that skill because I've maxed out the things that make my character great and left the rest for other players to be great at. When there's a change in my character's life and I take him in a new direction, the skills I have also change to reflect that as I choose to max a new set of skills, letting my other skills dwindle.

At games where you have to make those decisions, no one cares about powergaming, and the faster you're able to get the skills that make your character unique the better. Heck, this morning I locked my character at another game in his house and set a macro while I went into town and hung out at the local comic shop. No one's whining about it.

In any case, I don't mean to gank this thread. For the real topic, anyone going to man up for what happened to Jupiter? It seems like he's a nice guy, because I probably would have been ridiculously irascible if it happened to me.

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