Skill limit

[Flux]

Yeah, first we have to worry about Dr. Wily, then the VBU.

[H.Banestone]

In the mean time, get used to the fact that it's not easy to gain magic and it requires a bit of dedication and for you to actually really, really want it, to the extent that you're willing to log in every day and play a defenseless, useless char. I can tell you from experience illa's much more fun when you're playing a char who has real aspirations, is highly vulnerable and spends 100% of ingame time roleplaying; no skilling (no point).

A good advice, but sadly, while that stays true, Illarion remains muchly a niche game. Thing about people is, people don't like people in general. Games are an escape from people. If gamers were good at socializing, they would be outside getting some sun. If you're running a game that takes dedication, like 5-10 months of logging in every day, to accomplish your goals, you're aiming for a narrow target audience of lowest of the low class, complete shut in insiders, with either no jobs or nothing else to do, kids and adults who would be willing to treat roleplay fantasy life equal or more seriously than their real life, so escapists with little to no income and poor internet. Logically following, such people will likely not have much skill in socializing, hence will try to accomplish things on their own. Just my own thoughts, I didn't take sociology or anything. A fighter is the most I've had patience to be in Illarion. I cannot fathom the amount of time your game requires to become anything else.

Your other audience is casual gamers/casual roleplayers, like myself, who login once in a while, talk a bit, do a hunt, kill some red skeletons, log out, forget the game for a month. We, the casual players have no chance to accomplish much in the way of deep mystic professions in Illarion, and are kind of set to the role of "regular citizens", commoners, peasants and fighters if we are willing to train and build chars right. But then, why would we choose to play Illarion over other games where we can be simple fighters much quicker?
The right answer is - enforced roleplay atmosphere. That's Illarion's wild card! But currently it's hardly pulling its weight compared to the difficulty and time required to accomplish goals. Enforced RP can still be done with skills and professions easier available.

[Flux]

Have you basically just said that the whole of the mage community is a bunch of no-lifers who have no friends and can't get along with anyone?

[Estralis Seborian]

There are conclusive conceptions for changing the rune learning and skill system in order to meet the demands of the intended audience of Illarion which was also defined and differs from a) what was stated above and b) what was defined in the past.

All we lack is manpower to realise all the conceptions in time, so both issues are currently planned not to be included in the VBU.

[Llama]

To add to the above - if you want to help solve illarion's problems, we are always in need of volunteers.

So don't delay, apply today!

Its better than flogging a dead horse of a thread which has been going for a few weeks too long.

[Qeewee]

Have you basically just said that the whole of the serious Illarion community is a bunch of no-lifers who have no friends and can't get along with anyone?

<.< edited

[Kevin Lightdot]

Step 1. Make the character 1 week before the elections.
Step 2. Name your character Somebody Rothman.
Step 3. Give Matt your password and ask him to pg your char to max in half a week.
Step 4. Run in the Bane election. Promise reform.
Step 5. Organise a fighting tournament.
Step 6. Reform the guard including mage support.
Step 7. Ally with the temple.
Step 8. Conveniently take possession of Briar, Nordmark and Zzyathis.
Step 9. Invade Varshikar.
Step 10. Invade Vanima.
Step 11. Invade Grey Rose.
Step 12. Invade Silverbrand.
Step 12.a. Get banned.
Step 12.b. Get unbanned.
Step 13. Ally with the Academy.
Step 14. Attack the Bearers.

You might be able to squeese that into a fortnight .

That was mostly the idea, yeah

However instead of invading I'd find the newer english random people who want to be elves and set them up against some old elves for some stupid reason, germany enrages at england, it's super effective, england gets ban, rest of the world rages at germany, taking out germany eg. Vanima.
And I wouldn't acknowledge East germany eg. Silverbrand's existance at all thus avoiding bantime completely or for the majority untill after I rule the world.
Then arrange for someone to conveniently take controle of what I set up, plot the return of Logarius and rule the world IN STYLE!

[H.Banestone]

Estralis, how is Illarion target audience defined?

To add to the above - if you want to help solve illarion's problems, we are always in need of volunteers.

I would definitely volunteer, but currently am involved in another programming and game development project.

[Estralis Seborian]

Don't get me wrong, but this (target audience) is nothing that is to be discussed at this moment. All I'd like to say is that the orientation of Illarion will change slightly, away from hardcore fiddlyness towards a more broad audience. And no, this does ->NOT<- mean roleplaying will become optional. We are pretty much committed on the aims we have with the VBU, thus, a discussion won't be helpful at this time. But consider yourself (everyone) included in the target audience.

On the original topic, skillgain. I didn't find many helpful posts here, so I try to give one . If you want to modify or develope a skill system for a MMORPG, there is a concept called "learning curve" that shows you the reached level vs. time played. Certainly, such a curve will be different for different players, depending on their style of playing. But you can assume typical player behaviour and the design a curve that fits your target audience best.

Presenting such a curve, either skill over number of actions or skill over played time, and providing a mathematical model for this curve is the 1st step after defining what you want to achieve. Then you can go into iteration and optimisation processes and finally present methods how to achieve the curve ingame. Considereing abnormal player behaviour isn't the first step, but should be done one day.

Maybe a true game designer can jump in at this point. General statements are nice and fine, but you need concrete conceptions. For conceptions, you need no skills in programming, but you need to derive conclusions from all your nice ideas, things that one can implement.

PS: Any news on Abyssal ?

[H.Banestone]

Hmm, a chart of skill gain, huh? Well, this is highly subjective, because everyone is different, but does this help?

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/1497 ... lchart.png

Even from this primitive example we can see that some skills are very broken.

Though I think skill gain rate is fine in the game, I see more problems in the mechanical process of acquiring skill to begin with, i.e. initiation.
Druidry - I like. It's easier with a teacher, but doable without one, if you're curious enough to explore, and can get someone to finalize a potion. All in all, it's possible to figure out. Took me about 20 minutes to figure out what to do with druid runes in the little notebook, but it was fun to figure out the interface with no visible hints.
Magery - I don't like, because not even possible to acquire without teacher. I'd rather it to be a hard intuitive puzzle with no interface explanation, that involves library books, symbol copying, travel, rune stones, whatever else.
Crafting - unless you have another income source, crafting chokes you. Resource gatherers are hardly ever online, and NPC traders send you spiralling into economic hell. Being a crafter you pretty much have to be something else, most accessible is fighter for easy profit. To be fair, crafting system has improved a LOT since back in days when we were young and innocent. So I mostly like it.

Have you basically just said that the whole of the mage community is a bunch of no-lifers who have no friends and can't get along with anyone?

Who else would bother to deeply and jealously protect their secrets? Insecure people - is the only answer that comes to mind.
Have you ever seen fighters hide their secrets from noobies? Heck no, we're secure! Go fighters!

PS at Estralis: Huh? The game I'm working on is called PlayToCrush, and is a continuation of a hit game Shadowbane, which was closed by UbiSoft in 2009.

[Athian]

Who else would bother to deeply and jealously protect their secrets? Insecure people - is the only answer that comes to mind.
Have you ever seen fighters hide their secrets from noobies? Heck no, we're secure! Go fighters!

LOL are you serious? the actual mechanics of the fighting system were one of the most elitist and heavily guarded secrets of all. in fact most people STILL don't know how it works, they only take guesses from hearsay. So no, don't go fighters ^^

[Flux]

Banestone, how do you get 80% skill in slash, parry and dodge in 2 days?

[Kevin Lightdot]

Banestone, how do you get 80% skill in slash, parry and dodge in 2 days?

Depends on which of the gm's is most sexually frustrated at the time.

[Nikolaus]

Banestone, how do you get 80% skill in slash, parry and dodge in 2 days?

#me points at Matt.

[Felbion Lijawyn]

Banestone, how do you get 80% skill in slash, parry and dodge in 2 days?

Seduce a druid.

[Llama]

Banestone, how do you get 80% skill in slash, parry and dodge in 2 days?

Depends on which of the gm's is most sexually frustrated at the time.

Do CM's count?

[Flux]

No, because CMs can't raise your skills. Herp derp.

[H.Banestone]

Time is listed in hours on my chart.

[Kevin Lightdot]

Banestone, how do you get 80% skill in slash, parry and dodge in 2 days?

Seduce a druid.

Constant potion chucking, yay.

The time for drug addicts in Illarion has come.

[H.Banestone]

I'll pretend I didn't hear those corrupt thoughts about seducing game staff to get ingame benefit, that surely would reflect poorly if such rumors spread after VBU. You do not need druids or potions to raise combat skill, you only need to learn to cook or have access to good diet meals, and your life regeneration gets a serious boost, allowing you to tackle quite a few opponents.

[Retlak]

It's always funny to see my name pop up at least once in a skilling based topic.

-Matt

[Granfaloon]

from what i've read and seen (and i'm new so i could be a bit off) i've an idea.

to reward people who RP without giving a huge benefit to skills that others have to work hard for, but not leave it to no reward at all, perhaps make their social positions realistic. reward them with wealth and material things. a guard captain should have nice armor right? and a politician should have plenty of money as well?

Housing is a good idea i think. have some perks for owning a home, as far as realism... think about how nice it is to have your own house, alot nicer than not having one at all isn't it? hehe... also as i'm new i dont know, is there a fatigue level? if so having a house could help that, like being in your house could relieve fatigue faster than just sitting outside, this too could be social, to allow friends over to your house to rest and chat (RP) with you

as far as skills, my idea is this. selecting a vocation. allowing you to ear more levels in that particular skill than the others. i think it could help the game economy like this. if you can only skill up so many times in your other skills while a different number of skillups is available for your vocation is in place, say 10 levels for pretty much anything else whereas the cap for your primary vocation is higher. you would only get so many levels for mining or woodcutting or anything else you would need secondarily to blacksmithing (sword handles, metals for forging) you wouldn't be as proficient in these secondary skills so you would still have to buy from a supplier, a miner, or a lumberjack or carpenter. to prevent people from switching rapidly changing vocation could be made only available once per week.

also a vocation could allow a higher overall cap in that particular skill, while doing something as a hobby you may get pretty good at it, but its doubtful you'd get as good as somebody who does it for a living. realistically none of us are just one dimensional, most of us can cook, fish or could have woodworking as a hobby and do quite well at it. but we can cook things that are good enough but a chef, with a higher cap and daily gain, would be able to cook wonderful things that would make you willing to pay for it instead of just eating what you could make.

same for a professional blacksmith, somebody who got good at it doing it as a hobby might sell you a weapon good enough for your daily activities but, for a big event, hunting down a menacingly powerful demon that is threatening the existence as life as you know it....you may want the absolute best armor and weaponry that money can buy, items that could only be made by some one who has dedicated their life to their work.

as i said im quite new so be gentle lol

[Juliana D'cheyne]

@Granfaloon, btw welcome! Your ideas appear well thought out and I will be very interested to hear more when not quite as new *attempts to be gentle* ...as far as RP reward some games do that now, you can usually tell which by the flames on their forum about "why didn't I get.." and "the GM's are prejudice" among other things. Some chars also want to roleplay as poor or peasants, weak and unable to be a town guard, no interest in politics or possibly as a druid..neutral.

I like your idea of primary, secondary and maybe even tertiary skilling..perhaps a little time after the VBU while we wait and see what the dev's have in mind, I am guessing this has already been thought of and decided yeah or nah for now.