I agree with Ezor on the "high ranking" point. We have had some pretty poor roleplayers playing characters in important positions, and some of the great roleplayers have played characters who are nothing more than penniless commoners. There is little correlation between a character's role and their PO's roleplaying ability.
But in general, I agree with Morbius. This sort of thing has been suggested countless times, over many years, and I've never read a proper response as to why it would fail or be less successful than the current skill system. If everyone admits that the current skill system is broken, why are we still being punished by it? As I understand it, GMs already have the ability to increase skill levels, so this suggestion would require little effort implementing.
Rewarding good roleplay just seems to be the most basic and obvious of first steps toward improving the quality of roleplay around here.
@Maryday: I'm going to take a 50/50 and guess that the answer to your post is 'yes'.
Skill limit
Moderator: Gamemasters
Re: Skill limit
Illa's VBU aim is to get a bigger playerbase. A skilling system which depends on a small group of people observing the whole population of the game and deciding to award skill points to a player (which you have to do when they're offline unless you want to go through a fiddly process that generally ends up with someone having a new, useless skill appearing in their inventory due to the syntax not being the same as the displayed names of the skill, and then somehow inform the player that it's occured) is just counter-intuitive and highly impractical.
Re: Skill limit
That's fair enough.
What about making the skill-change less problematic? And the GMs observe the playerbase anyway, so it wouldn't be asking too much more from them. They wouldn't need to be monitoring everyone 24/7, just issuing a reward whenever they noticed someone consistently roleplaying well and improving the atmosphere of the game. And more GMs can be appointed too, as would need to happen with a significant population increase whatever the case.
What about making the skill-change less problematic? And the GMs observe the playerbase anyway, so it wouldn't be asking too much more from them. They wouldn't need to be monitoring everyone 24/7, just issuing a reward whenever they noticed someone consistently roleplaying well and improving the atmosphere of the game. And more GMs can be appointed too, as would need to happen with a significant population increase whatever the case.
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Drakon Gerwulf
- Developer
- Posts: 332
- Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:39 pm
Re: Skill limit
That also mean you need gm's in all time zones and who are on when everyone is on at all hours or the poor person who lives in say Australia (( no offense to the players in that region just know there are very few people play from from there, I know one in particular)) May never see a single point unless they rush to log in or stay on the very late at night.
not to mention Grokk, you just said it yourself. They don't have to give points all the time only when it is seen, What if the GM is busy else where dealing with a problem and someone rp's perfectly then but either gets tired or bored because of something going on and goes off to find something else to do. You have to have a system that is fair to all.
As an example, Little Joey rps something catching the eye of the gm, little Kimmy does the same but the gm don't notice do to paying attention to Joey and his antics. Both deserve points but only Joey will get them do to the gm seeing that exact moment.
Just trying to point out some problems that may happen, we just have to wait and see what they have en store for us.
This is not an attack or to start a war, it is just something that pop into my head when I read this.
it is a good topic and a good discussion, talking it out will help the Dev's come up with a better system.
not to mention Grokk, you just said it yourself. They don't have to give points all the time only when it is seen, What if the GM is busy else where dealing with a problem and someone rp's perfectly then but either gets tired or bored because of something going on and goes off to find something else to do. You have to have a system that is fair to all.
As an example, Little Joey rps something catching the eye of the gm, little Kimmy does the same but the gm don't notice do to paying attention to Joey and his antics. Both deserve points but only Joey will get them do to the gm seeing that exact moment.
Just trying to point out some problems that may happen, we just have to wait and see what they have en store for us.
This is not an attack or to start a war, it is just something that pop into my head when I read this.
it is a good topic and a good discussion, talking it out will help the Dev's come up with a better system.
Re: Skill limit
I'm from New Zealand so I am quite aware of this problem, but I find that I don't have too much of an issue getting in touch with a GM. I always assumed that the staff plan it so that there are (or will be when the VBU is released) GMs to cover people from all of the time zones. Everyone should have a period of time when they can play and have GMs around. If that's not correct, then that could certainly be an issue.Drakon Gerwulf wrote:That also mean you need gm's in all time zones and who are on when everyone is on at all hours or the poor person who lives in say Australia (( no offense to the players in that region just know there are very few people play from from there, I know one in particular)) May never see a single point unless they rush to log in or stay on the very late at night.
Good point. I should have clarified. People should only be rewarded for good RP over an extended period of time. No one should be rewarded for a single day of quality roleplay. Or for standing out in a quest that took place over a few hours. I would only support rewarding someone for good roleplay if they were doing so on a consistent basis. It would need to occur across several weeks, even months. Over such a period, it would become far more difficult for a person to go unnoticed.Drakon Gerwulf wrote:not to mention Grokk, you just said it yourself. They don't have to give points all the time only when it is seen, What if the GM is busy else where dealing with a problem and someone rp's perfectly then but either gets tired or bored because of something going on and goes off to find something else to do. You have to have a system that is fair to all.
Also, perhaps forum posts in the RP section could be factored into the equation. They can't be missed. And it would help generate some activity there, too.
Re: Skill limit
Well, moving away from the Gm's handing out skills. It was mentioned earlier about and automated system where depending on how many #me's are being used you got points to spend on whatever or somaehitng like that. I think it was Karl who mentioned it. But then there was the argument that people would sit around simple going #me takes a step. #me takes another step. Etc.Just to get points. Well, if people do that, it's just like any other rule break, you get warned or banned. Or you could just set it somehow that points only get added when other people are around to hear your rp or something. I'm no tech head so i really have no idea how hard any of this would be, just spouting more idea.
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Ezor Edwickton
- Posts: 679
- Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:23 am
- Location: Canada
Re: Skill limit
And I believe this is how it should be. It keeps things more 'pure' in a sense. In that characters gain positions, either government/guild or anything else based on the situation IG, not rp ability, which would constitute as an OOC reason.I agree with Ezor on the "high ranking" point. We have had some pretty poor roleplayers playing characters in important positions, and some of the great roleplayers have played characters who are nothing more than penniless commoners. There is little correlation between a character's role and their PO's roleplaying ability.
The problem being that in order to be 'caught' rping well, you'd probably want to spend time with as many players in the most populated areas. Some might think this is great! But with this most people would change their chars to overly friendly overly social character, and we'd have no diversity. Also, some of the best rp I've seen involved only 2 or 3 people together at a time. Most of the worst rp I've seen has been during major quests. I see too many player gushing about great rp after quests as if GM involvement or in game combat equals good rp.Everyone should have a period of time when they can play and have GMs around. If that's not correct, then that could certainly be an issue.
Re: Skill limit
The GM tool lets the GMs see everything that is said in the client in real time.
Re: Skill limit
I believe there is also the problem that the number of #mes you do and the number of words you type have absolutely no impact on how good of a RPer you are. Not to mention RP is 50% subjective. Or I think it is. When taking into account a character's actions you also have to ask why they did what they did. Knowing the back story and previous in game experiences are the only indicator. And no GM will know all of that. Sorry but I think the entire idea is flawed.Morbius wrote:Well, moving away from the Gm's handing out skills. It was mentioned earlier about and automated system where depending on how many #me's are being used you got points to spend on whatever or somaehitng like that.
Re: Skill limit
No that's fine, and I compleatly understand, and agree with you on most points. I'm sure there's a way... out there... somwhere.
Re: Skill limit
There are lots of ways, but none is without drawbacks. Letting GMs handle them is in my opinion still the worst way to handle skills. First, there are going to be a lot of complaints of bias. Whether rightfully or not, it will happen and it will lead to a lot of hostility across the whole community. We have enough of that as it is, no need to create more potential for frustration and unfair treatment. Second, there are far more important things to do for GMs like dealing with rule breaks and most importantly organizing IG events, quests, etc. These events are one of the few reasons to play this game and not one of countless others out there, so let's not detract from that by making GMs take care of even more chores than they have on their plates already.
The easiest way to fix some/most of the current issues would be to simply make skilling faster. Ways to do this could be:
1. Make skillcap potions mass producible, but costly. This would give players the possibility to PG longer during the less busy hours, but the price should make it impossible to use them all the time.
2. The effects of intelligence and willpower on the speed of skillgain could be increased.
3. Skill could generally build up faster.
4. In the case of fighting specifically, the difference in power between 0% and 100% could be lowered. One fully skilled char should not able to beat four untrained ones if all involved have comparable equipment.
5. Get rid of starting packages. All chars should start out with a decent amount of coin, which they can spend on some average equipment before they are spawned on Gobaith or keep for spending in game. Starting skill is a little more difficult, since different types of chars need different numbers of skills, but still possible. An easy way would be to just give everyone the same amount of "skill points", which can be distributed completely freely or only up to a certain level for each skill, which forces people to invest in more than one. Obviously some skills are harder to learn than others, so the cost for each level of each skill should be made visible.
One game I played had a system, which let you distribute more points on skills at char creation than you could ever get through levelling. There are no attributes, only skills of different categories like social, scientific, combat related etc. and upon creation you put these categories in an order of importance. The most important area then gets assigned the most points to spend on its individual skills. That doesn't mean you will be able to max out that area, though even through levelling you won't. It does however make the char useful right from the start and gaining levels is not really that important at all, since you can be pretty good at at least one task without ever PGing at all.
Though Illa is too different to implement the same system here, the basic principle behind it is worth considering. I think gaining skill should be easier and gaining wealth harder. After all, this game is about interaction between chars, not about grinding endlessly just to become even remotely useful some day. This will be even more important if we get an influx of newbies with the VBU, since the average new player wants to be involved in exciting stuff as quickly as possible and monster grinding isn't exactly Illa's strongest game aspect. For levelling and combat, there are plenty other games that do a far better job in that area. If you join Illarion, you probably do so for role play, so everything else should be less important and time consuming.
The easiest way to fix some/most of the current issues would be to simply make skilling faster. Ways to do this could be:
1. Make skillcap potions mass producible, but costly. This would give players the possibility to PG longer during the less busy hours, but the price should make it impossible to use them all the time.
2. The effects of intelligence and willpower on the speed of skillgain could be increased.
3. Skill could generally build up faster.
4. In the case of fighting specifically, the difference in power between 0% and 100% could be lowered. One fully skilled char should not able to beat four untrained ones if all involved have comparable equipment.
5. Get rid of starting packages. All chars should start out with a decent amount of coin, which they can spend on some average equipment before they are spawned on Gobaith or keep for spending in game. Starting skill is a little more difficult, since different types of chars need different numbers of skills, but still possible. An easy way would be to just give everyone the same amount of "skill points", which can be distributed completely freely or only up to a certain level for each skill, which forces people to invest in more than one. Obviously some skills are harder to learn than others, so the cost for each level of each skill should be made visible.
One game I played had a system, which let you distribute more points on skills at char creation than you could ever get through levelling. There are no attributes, only skills of different categories like social, scientific, combat related etc. and upon creation you put these categories in an order of importance. The most important area then gets assigned the most points to spend on its individual skills. That doesn't mean you will be able to max out that area, though even through levelling you won't. It does however make the char useful right from the start and gaining levels is not really that important at all, since you can be pretty good at at least one task without ever PGing at all.
Though Illa is too different to implement the same system here, the basic principle behind it is worth considering. I think gaining skill should be easier and gaining wealth harder. After all, this game is about interaction between chars, not about grinding endlessly just to become even remotely useful some day. This will be even more important if we get an influx of newbies with the VBU, since the average new player wants to be involved in exciting stuff as quickly as possible and monster grinding isn't exactly Illa's strongest game aspect. For levelling and combat, there are plenty other games that do a far better job in that area. If you join Illarion, you probably do so for role play, so everything else should be less important and time consuming.
Re: Skill limit
Probably the most sensible sentence in the entire thread. Closely followed by these two:Velisai wrote:The easiest way to fix some/most of the current issues would be to simply make skilling faster.
I remember making the suggestion to speed up skilling when I first started playing Illarion. It would solve so many problems. The skill system would see a huge improvement. PGers lose a lot of their advantage. Less time spent skilling = more time spent roleplaying. New players are able to participate and actually be useful.Velisai wrote:For levelling and combat, there are plenty other games that do a far better job in that area. If you join Illarion, you probably do so for role play, so everything else should be less important and time consuming.
Another possible change which would have similar results (and that I have suggested previously) is to greatly reduce the ability gap between high and low skilled characters. Let low skilled characters have a use. The powerful knight is still going to destroy a peasant in a one on one combat, but the odds might be evened out when three of the villager's friends show up at his back. Character interaction is key for Illarion. But having such a wide range of ability only prevents this.
Re: Skill limit
Years ago skills used to go up faster and we had maxed mage/fighter/crafters around every corner. It was really lame and caused a lot of problems if I remember correctly. I think that is why the cap was put in place and why skills went up slower. I think it would sort of "kill the economy" if skilling was to easy.
Re: Skill limit
What sort of problems, if you can remember?Lrmy wrote:It was really lame and caused a lot of problems if I remember correctly.
Re: Skill limit
While I agree that making skill gain more rapid would make certain aspects of the game more dynamic, I think there are disbenefits to consider as well.
If skill gain is quick enough for everyone to take advantage of the full range of skills, variability between characters is harmed. Every smith is a master smith, every fighter strong enough to fight dragons. While there are many benefits to this, it can serve to discourage interaction between characters. No one relies upon a master smith, because one of his friends has mastered smithing. It's even more difficult to maintain order, because any pair of fighters can kill whoever they please. Craftspeople don't want to play victims (mostly) so they all become master fighters too. Monsters are either too easy, or too difficult, for the whole of the population. People who favour playing a single character get bored of one skill-set, and switch between them, one day a smith, the next a fighter, the next a mage, so character roles become less significant.
If skill gain is quick enough for everyone to take advantage of the full range of skills, variability between characters is harmed. Every smith is a master smith, every fighter strong enough to fight dragons. While there are many benefits to this, it can serve to discourage interaction between characters. No one relies upon a master smith, because one of his friends has mastered smithing. It's even more difficult to maintain order, because any pair of fighters can kill whoever they please. Craftspeople don't want to play victims (mostly) so they all become master fighters too. Monsters are either too easy, or too difficult, for the whole of the population. People who favour playing a single character get bored of one skill-set, and switch between them, one day a smith, the next a fighter, the next a mage, so character roles become less significant.
Re: Skill limit
I'm glad you asked.. There was a specific example of a halfling fighter mage that went around with shields casting spells at everyone. Even though he didn't have great fighting stats he was able to parry just about anything with maxed parry and was nearly invincible. This was in the case with several characters. Then you had the crafters that could make excellent versions of anything from greaves to staves to leather gloves that also had maxed fighting skills. It made it pointless to have a crafter that wasn't a fighter because no one knew who you were. Things like this make the characters more uniform and less realistic. No, the current system isn't perfect but I think it accomplishes what it needs to. Not to mention that there is still the portion of players who still won't go out and PG even if it takes 25% less time. Since skilling would be easier those characters would be even more overwhelmed those labeled as PGers.Grokk wrote:What sort of problems, if you can remember?Lrmy wrote:It was really lame and caused a lot of problems if I remember correctly.
Re: Skill limit
Definitely agree with Korwin's post. That's exactly why I think reducing the ability gap between low and high skilled characters would be more effective than just speeding up skill gain. You'll still have variability between characters, with those people willing to put in training hours being more powerful than those who aren't. The difference in power would simply be less than it currently is, making lower skilled characters more useful and interesting to play.
That is not a system accomplishing what it needs to.
I agree with the problems you identified in your examples, but I just cannot accept that statement. Illarion is averaging <10 players online at once. The skill system is regularly complained about, and has driven plenty of decent players away. It might be appropriate for a generic PvE online game, but it is not the kind of system that promotes roleplay. People who wish to spend their time IG roleplaying and adding to the atmosphere receive no encouragement to stick around and continue doing so. It rewards the person who hides away from the rest of the community, and has the most time to waste. Players are forced to endure the terrible grind if they wish to play any of a large range of possible character types.Lrmy wrote:No, the current system isn't perfect but I think it accomplishes what it needs to.
That is not a system accomplishing what it needs to.
Re: Skill limit
There hopefully will be more players online soon. I suspect we'll average well over ten at a time in the coming months. Who exactly hides away from the community PGing all the time anyways? In my experience very few people PG alone for long at all. The ones with the high skills are characters that have been around for normally over a year. It's just as easy to RP with people in town as it is in the graveyard or the crypts or the forests. This happens every day and adds just as much to the atmosphere as sitting around a campfire with two or three people for an hour.Grokk wrote:I agree with the problems you identified in your examples, but I just cannot accept that statement. Illarion is averaging <10 players online at once. The skill system is regularly complained about, and has driven plenty of decent players away. It might be appropriate for a generic PvE online game, but it is not the kind of system that promotes roleplay. People who wish to spend their time IG roleplaying and adding to the atmosphere receive no encouragement to stick around and continue doing so. It rewards the person who hides away from the rest of the community, and has the most time to waste. Players are forced to endure the terrible grind if they wish to play any of a large range of possible character types.Lrmy wrote:No, the current system isn't perfect but I think it accomplishes what it needs to.
That is not a system accomplishing what it needs to.
I am quite curious what type of system would allow us to gain skill fast or make characters a closer match for each other while still allowing for crafters to be as important as fighters. If all fighters were similar strength we wouldn't have people who were pure fighters because there would be little point. The reason "Pged" characters can kill four weak ones is because of a gear/skill combo. If everyone could get good gear we should do away with all the lesser items because no one will want them. But wait, low level smiths wouldn't have anything to make coins off of. Remember we also need monsters for people of all skills to fight because we need different levels of loot unless we want warriors all killing the weak monsters and nothing else. If weak monsters simply dropped more loot there would still be no need for low level crafters. I'm assuming monsters contribute to almost all of the in-game money, so we still need people to have a need to farm them unless we want fighters becoming master craftsmen or robbing others all the time. It sounds like a relatively slow skill-gain system with rules about Pging and a cap would best solve all these issues.
Re: Skill limit
Low level craftspeople don't earn anything with the current system. I started my main char as a pure tailor and the only orders she got were out of pity. Only later, when she became a fighter, she could actually afford to learn the craft. And even now I can't sell barely any very good, brand new stuff, since people would rather wait until they can afford it and then buy the excellent item for twice the price. So I don't think any system at all would make low level crafters useful, ever. There's just no demand for their goods.
Maybe you just shouldn't be able to dodge or parry at all if the number of attackers exceeds one every 25% tactics skill or something like that?
I am a powergamer. Faster skillgain doesn't benefit me nearly as much as others, but I still think it is a little too slow right now. I'm not saying it should be possible to max out one skill a week, but making the system more friendly would benefit the game in my opinion. Those things I listed a few posts back, don't depend on each other and are not at all specific in how great their influence should be.
Take this for example: Make skillcap potions mass producible, but costly. This would give players the possibility to PG longer during the less busy hours, but the price should make it impossible to use them all the time.
If you read the original post, this is exactly what addresses the problem this thread was built up on. This isn't meant to make everyone reach 100% in a few weeks, it is meant to allow people more freedom to decide when they want to grind. They'd still have to kill just as many things as before.
A more radical approach would be to have a weekly skillcap. That way it still takes months to reach the higher levels, but you could do it with less grind. As for money, right now it is a byproduct of skilling. If you'd have to grind demon skeletons for the coin instead of skill, money might actually become somewhat valuable for a decent fighter or mage. Though as every system, this is flawed too.
One more thing:
If one char has 60% in his fighting skills and another has 80%, no gear short of heavily gem encrusted weapons and armors will make a difference. If you compare 80% to 20%, the number of opponents doesn't matter at all anymore. The 80% char can slaughter those beginners by the hundreds without breaking a sweat.The reason "Pged" characters can kill four weak ones is because of a gear/skill combo.
Maybe you just shouldn't be able to dodge or parry at all if the number of attackers exceeds one every 25% tactics skill or something like that?
I am a powergamer. Faster skillgain doesn't benefit me nearly as much as others, but I still think it is a little too slow right now. I'm not saying it should be possible to max out one skill a week, but making the system more friendly would benefit the game in my opinion. Those things I listed a few posts back, don't depend on each other and are not at all specific in how great their influence should be.
Take this for example: Make skillcap potions mass producible, but costly. This would give players the possibility to PG longer during the less busy hours, but the price should make it impossible to use them all the time.
If you read the original post, this is exactly what addresses the problem this thread was built up on. This isn't meant to make everyone reach 100% in a few weeks, it is meant to allow people more freedom to decide when they want to grind. They'd still have to kill just as many things as before.
A more radical approach would be to have a weekly skillcap. That way it still takes months to reach the higher levels, but you could do it with less grind. As for money, right now it is a byproduct of skilling. If you'd have to grind demon skeletons for the coin instead of skill, money might actually become somewhat valuable for a decent fighter or mage. Though as every system, this is flawed too.
One more thing:
Have you been down in the graveyard lately? People not only camp out there for days, some even log out when you come along, since sharing the few reds makes skillgain too slow.In my experience very few people PG alone for long at all.
Re: Skill limit
That would only be a problem if you sped skill gain up to an unreasonable level, where it was possible to max out a skill in a week. Or if you cut the differences in character ability so much that a low skilled character was no longer distinguishable from a high skilled one. There is no need to go to such extremes. There is a need not to go so far, in fact, for the reasons which you point out.Lrmy wrote:I am quite curious what type of system would allow us to gain skill fast or make characters a closer match for each other while still allowing for crafters to be as important as fighters.
Roleplay. That is the point.Lrmy wrote:If all fighters were similar strength we wouldn't have people who were pure fighters because there would be little point.
Re: Skill limit
No, that's the point of pen and paper or text based games. Illarion is clearly not that. Illarion is part that and part a video game just like any other..skills and items and what not. Also, haven't you ever played a DnD game where people only want to PG? It's an issue that can't be solved by some engine. There simply isn't a player base for purely RP based games with graphics. As for your other point.. Don't you think the years of experience that was put into the fighting system created a better balance than you can suggest?Grokk wrote:
Roleplay. That is the point.
Re: Skill limit
I do not have a lot of experience with this game, or community, so keep that in mind when reading my post.
It does not matter what medium Illarion uses as a game. From what I have seen, the importance is solely on the roleplay. All the "features" of the game exist solely to enhance the roleplay. However, when making a game with such a high reliance on roleplay, sometimes the game "features" can start to get in the way if you are not careful. Skills and items are nearly always the features that can easily drag roleplay down in games like this.
As for the main topic of this thread, there are many ways skills and their gain could be handled in a game like this. Without spending a large amount of time detailing all of those various ways, I will propose one that could possibly be very simple to add to the current system, without the need to change anything else.
What about letting new characters start with some medium-advanced skills? I do not mean that they should have a great number of them, maybe only one or two. What this would do is allow people to create new characters that can actually do something worthwhile right away. Then if they want to take it further, they can work on their character's other skills.
As it is right now in the game mechanics, new characters know how to do nothing... at all. That makes little sense to me, unless we are all creating characters with no backstory/previous lives (aka children).
My suggestion would allow someone to create, for example, a herbalist character with some experience in gathering herbs and have the game engine back them up. Then if they wanted that character to become known for producing many high quality herbs, they could work on leveling up the character's herbalism from there. If they wanted other skills, they would have to learn them from scratch, which would make some sense for that character.
As I said in the beginning though, I am pretty inexperienced with this game and community. I have been looking for a long time for a skill-based MMORPG, and I stopped here because this game looked promising.
The question may not have been directed at me, but I will provide an answer. I have played DnD with those people, and I did not enjoy it very much either, largely because they did not care much about the RP, only the treasure and experience points. That behavior is the kind that can ruin any game for people who enjoy roleplay.Lrmy wrote:Also, haven't you ever played a DnD game where people only want to PG?
It does not matter what medium Illarion uses as a game. From what I have seen, the importance is solely on the roleplay. All the "features" of the game exist solely to enhance the roleplay. However, when making a game with such a high reliance on roleplay, sometimes the game "features" can start to get in the way if you are not careful. Skills and items are nearly always the features that can easily drag roleplay down in games like this.
As for the main topic of this thread, there are many ways skills and their gain could be handled in a game like this. Without spending a large amount of time detailing all of those various ways, I will propose one that could possibly be very simple to add to the current system, without the need to change anything else.
What about letting new characters start with some medium-advanced skills? I do not mean that they should have a great number of them, maybe only one or two. What this would do is allow people to create new characters that can actually do something worthwhile right away. Then if they want to take it further, they can work on their character's other skills.
As it is right now in the game mechanics, new characters know how to do nothing... at all. That makes little sense to me, unless we are all creating characters with no backstory/previous lives (aka children).
My suggestion would allow someone to create, for example, a herbalist character with some experience in gathering herbs and have the game engine back them up. Then if they wanted that character to become known for producing many high quality herbs, they could work on leveling up the character's herbalism from there. If they wanted other skills, they would have to learn them from scratch, which would make some sense for that character.
As I said in the beginning though, I am pretty inexperienced with this game and community. I have been looking for a long time for a skill-based MMORPG, and I stopped here because this game looked promising.
Re: Skill limit
People who play the game primarily in the graveyard, and who only max their skills to have "power" over others because they lack the necessary RP skills to present their characters in the same manner are honestly doing nothing for the game. Skills shouldn't make someone an amazing military leader, or experienced soldier when they play their characters like complete and utter noobs. I know several characters who have played the game who have gained primarily established "fighting" positions based solely on their ability to ctrl others and not RP the roles accordingly.
The developers shouldn't fear that by removing some of the difficulty of the system they'll lose an already small player base. Simply take a page from the book of UO and have players select players caps on individual skills upon creation (with so many points that can be allotted to each skill I.E. you place a 99 cap on slashing and parry, you only have another few hundred points to allocate in other areas.). Those games continuously have somewhat full servers, and no one ever complains about the skill system or "jack of all trades" characters.
The developers shouldn't fear that by removing some of the difficulty of the system they'll lose an already small player base. Simply take a page from the book of UO and have players select players caps on individual skills upon creation (with so many points that can be allotted to each skill I.E. you place a 99 cap on slashing and parry, you only have another few hundred points to allocate in other areas.). Those games continuously have somewhat full servers, and no one ever complains about the skill system or "jack of all trades" characters.
Re: Skill limit
What Respen said, basically. Also, he is exactly the kind of player that this game attracts, and then soon drives away: intelligent, mature, and with a passion for roleplay. Listen to people like him, and they might actually stick around. Increasing the starting skills is a brilliant idea. That is the kind of idea that should be adapted from other games, as it aids roleplay. Just like almost every other suggestion in this thread, it is not by some freakish coincidence that it has been suggested countless times over many years by intelligent people. Why anyone should be forced to play a middle-aged character who is completely incompetent and lacking in any sort of skills in a roleplaying game is completely beyond me.
"Illarion is a free, graphical fantasy game that focuses on true roleplaying."
The roleplay is what brings people to this game. There is nothing else that this game offers that hundreds of other games don't also offer to a higher standard. The problem is that Illarion, game-mechanically, just doesn't really separate itself from any other game, despite possessing a completely different aim. It doesn't do much different than an RP-enforced server of any other number of games, which is why so many players have no difficulty moving on from Illarion. What is there to separate Illarion from a RP-enforced UO shard, let alone to make it better? Even if Runescape were to open a highly regulated, RP-enforced server, in what way would Illarion be a more attractive RP option?
"Illarion is a free, graphical fantasy game that focuses on true roleplaying."
The roleplay is what brings people to this game. There is nothing else that this game offers that hundreds of other games don't also offer to a higher standard. The problem is that Illarion, game-mechanically, just doesn't really separate itself from any other game, despite possessing a completely different aim. It doesn't do much different than an RP-enforced server of any other number of games, which is why so many players have no difficulty moving on from Illarion. What is there to separate Illarion from a RP-enforced UO shard, let alone to make it better? Even if Runescape were to open a highly regulated, RP-enforced server, in what way would Illarion be a more attractive RP option?
No, I don't. That is a poor argument.Lrmy wrote:Don't you think the years of experience that was put into the fighting system created a better balance than you can suggest?
Re: Skill limit
"Aaaaarrrgh! I`m almost perma-capped just because of three swirlies clay-digging!!!
Once again.
Alike concerning pen`n paper games: Finetuning and balancing!
Better slower then uber-heroes too fast.
->Slow development shows the 'peaks' of a system, which have to be cut.
->Fast development leads to quick rise of enemies difficulty,
making it ever more easy/fun to PG against ever more weakening cannon fooder
=>ruins the fun, worse then biting off teeth against legions and legions of 'rats';
Here comes a penny, you may rub to yours.
The higher 'primary' skills proposed sound promising:
How about choosing tertiary skills (four up to six, automatically) along with the starting package and thereafter allowing
the player to choose three up to five secondary skills manually (from the package)?
Thereafter could also be the possibility implemented to let the engine 'descide' about which (one or two)
of the (by player picked three or five) secondary skills would become primary ones
(->receive a learning bonus/->cap-decrease, up to a certain level of overall experience).
=>The PO would get the chance to have indirect influence on the cap(s) ((in the beginning of the chars 'life'));
Maybe there could also be the possibility to let the PO choose one or two (not-class-related) tertiary skills?
(From basic skills like work, combat, etc. NOT magic, language, alchemy, etc.=>Therefor a package could be chosen.)
@Respen;
The point is: Having a char begin from the bottom of the IG-social pyramid gives chance
to develop agreement/relationship/friendship from the scratch.
Over the years playing this and maybe some other games, i have had enough chance(-s)
to come to this, my, way of seeing the things.
I feel urged to express my opinion of PG on a chars social development,
yet i refrain from doing so. You have ways of researching this, if you want to.
I can only say: A purely/mainly PGd char has to fight huge problems of acceptance from side of the
established player(char-)base both IG as OC. Also here have been plenty of examples concerning this,
and will be.
To me it seems like something every action-oriented player has to get along with, some day.
@Grokk; Because of the small sized community (->possibility to expand/adapt content)
and therefor smaller 'gap' between staff and PO?
Once again.
Alike concerning pen`n paper games: Finetuning and balancing!
Better slower then uber-heroes too fast.
->Slow development shows the 'peaks' of a system, which have to be cut.
->Fast development leads to quick rise of enemies difficulty,
making it ever more easy/fun to PG against ever more weakening cannon fooder
=>ruins the fun, worse then biting off teeth against legions and legions of 'rats';
Here comes a penny, you may rub to yours.
The higher 'primary' skills proposed sound promising:
How about choosing tertiary skills (four up to six, automatically) along with the starting package and thereafter allowing
the player to choose three up to five secondary skills manually (from the package)?
Thereafter could also be the possibility implemented to let the engine 'descide' about which (one or two)
of the (by player picked three or five) secondary skills would become primary ones
(->receive a learning bonus/->cap-decrease, up to a certain level of overall experience).
=>The PO would get the chance to have indirect influence on the cap(s) ((in the beginning of the chars 'life'));
Maybe there could also be the possibility to let the PO choose one or two (not-class-related) tertiary skills?
(From basic skills like work, combat, etc. NOT magic, language, alchemy, etc.=>Therefor a package could be chosen.)
@Respen;
The point is: Having a char begin from the bottom of the IG-social pyramid gives chance
to develop agreement/relationship/friendship from the scratch.
Over the years playing this and maybe some other games, i have had enough chance(-s)
to come to this, my, way of seeing the things.
I feel urged to express my opinion of PG on a chars social development,
yet i refrain from doing so. You have ways of researching this, if you want to.
I can only say: A purely/mainly PGd char has to fight huge problems of acceptance from side of the
established player(char-)base both IG as OC. Also here have been plenty of examples concerning this,
and will be.
To me it seems like something every action-oriented player has to get along with, some day.
@Grokk; Because of the small sized community (->possibility to expand/adapt content)
and therefor smaller 'gap' between staff and PO?
Re: Skill limit
Sadly, this is no longer true. When I first played and fell in love with Illarion it was a true roleplaying game. Now it is just another hack 'n slash game with a minimal - and optional - RP component. Honestly, it seems like everyone has just given up.Grokk wrote:"Illarion is a free, graphical fantasy game that focuses on true roleplaying."
I agree with spending a few skill points on character creation. I also favor addressing individual problems with individual players instead of changing the game engine based on the behaviors of a handful of troublemakers.
With the focus so squarely on skills and engine performance, the magic of the game has vanished.
Re: Skill limit
Honestly, the system has nothing to do with the "hack and slash" and "strict roleplayer" ratios. It's due to the fact that the numbers are dwindling, and the level of true rpers have unfortunately took the hardest hit with that drop off in player base. I've played a position that people tend to claim is one of the most powerful for 6 months with little to no skills and did alright. I honestly am a little iffy when people want to claim the system affects RP as much as they say it does.
The only way it affects it is it you let it. I think it all boils down to the basic and recurrent fact that people don't want their characters to be led, beaten, or anything done to them that they dislike. People, for whatever reason, can not stand to lose. Having PGed tanks walking around keeps people from being able to RP pompous jerks or getting on others bad sides. You disable advantages such as those that are available with the current system and I think that everyone's characters would have such large E-cocks the client would explode (no pun intended.)
That's not to say, however, there are not compromises (such as the one I mentioned dealing with the starting caps).
The only way it affects it is it you let it. I think it all boils down to the basic and recurrent fact that people don't want their characters to be led, beaten, or anything done to them that they dislike. People, for whatever reason, can not stand to lose. Having PGed tanks walking around keeps people from being able to RP pompous jerks or getting on others bad sides. You disable advantages such as those that are available with the current system and I think that everyone's characters would have such large E-cocks the client would explode (no pun intended.)
That's not to say, however, there are not compromises (such as the one I mentioned dealing with the starting caps).
Re: Skill limit
For Runescape, sure. But it doesn't work for UO shards, which have small enough communities to allow strong communication between staff and players. Is the small gap even a benefit? The suggestions in this thread have been made countless times, but they are never properly acknowledged and nothing is done about them. Is the gap even that small? I've seen plenty of games with much larger communities which have much better communication between staff and players. Here, most things staff-related seem to be kept top secret, with a handful of people possessing sole control of Illarion's future direction. Players aren't listened to, unless their proposal is something extremely minor, or something already planned by the staff.maryday wrote:@Grokk; Because of the small sized community (->possibility to expand/adapt content)
and therefor smaller 'gap' between staff and PO?
Completely agree. Immersion is something vital that this game lacks.Kamilar wrote:With the focus so squarely on skills and engine performance, the magic of the game has vanished.
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Ezor Edwickton
- Posts: 679
- Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:23 am
- Location: Canada
Re: Skill limit
I think this is a major point, that I strongly agree with. I don't think a bunch of fresh unskilled fighters should be able to take on skilled ones. But worse is to have it that a higher skilled fighter can take on any number of slightly lesser skilled fighters.Another possible change which would have similar results (and that I have suggested previously) is to greatly reduce the ability gap between high and low skilled characters. Let low skilled characters have a use. The powerful knight is still going to destroy a peasant in a one on one combat, but the odds might be evened out when three of the villager's friends show up at his back. Character interaction is key for Illarion. But having such a wide range of ability only prevents this.
Just adding on other person adds potentially two more weapons swinging at you, which act totally independent of the other. There should be multipliers for the combat system when you are being attacked by more then one char at a time. I think this would greatly improve the rp. Lower skilled fighters won't even attempt to go after others, but if you could round up a few fighters and go after another, then we have some rp and aspects of strategies going on.
And I'm a no go on the potion idea. This will only serve to increase the gap between pgers and the rest. (when did pging become acceptable??? or even cool anyway???) Players who pg will naturally have more coin then those who don't/can't get on a pg all the time and won't be able to buy the potions as readily.
The thing is that it should take you a long time to gain skills, nobody can master something overnight. I think maybe higher starting skill might be a better idea then making skill gain easier.
Re: Skill limit
Oooooooh.
Another entirely pointless discussion.
You can talk about what you like about skills and what you don't as long as you shall fit. Yet you do not know how that will change during the VBU. Also you can ensure you that this discussion will have no impact at all on the VBU release of Illarion.
Just so you know...
Have Fun.
Nitram
Another entirely pointless discussion.
You can talk about what you like about skills and what you don't as long as you shall fit. Yet you do not know how that will change during the VBU. Also you can ensure you that this discussion will have no impact at all on the VBU release of Illarion.
Just so you know...
Have Fun.
Nitram