Jail: Take 2

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Post by Vilarion » Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:28 pm

Jail: Take 2

Earlier I removed the jail from Trolls Bane, since the fact that some players can put away others for an undefined timespan is rather unacceptable. While some may rejoice now and others will hate me for it, I want everybody to see this as a chance for more teamwork between players of opposing characters. If your characters are enemies, that does not mean, that you as players have to be enemies as well. In fact, for the fun of everybody else, in such cases communication between players should be intense. So please take this change, use it to improve your roleplay and always bear in mind, that first of all we play with and not against each other. Also reflect what implications your actions will have on others and if it will be worth seeing them through if the fun of many players will suffer, it is not all about "winning". If you play a "bad" character, be prepared to get punished for some of your deeds along the road, with your consent as a player. Of course jailing will still be possible in the future, rp-wise, but it will require the approval of the player in question. If you think, that you cannot get along with some jail time or other punishment now and then, consider it twice trying to be one of the bad guys or getting into other conflicts.

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Post by Grokk » Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:58 pm

Fine, I'll play nice.

The issue that you point to is "the fact that some players can put away others for an undefined timespan". Characters can put away other characters. Why do you talk about players, but switch to talk of characters when it suits your reasoning?

Ignoring that, this seems to be a confined issue of OOC exploitation.

Else why are the prisons allowed to remain in other towns?

Else why has the prison suddenly become an issue, despite being around forever?

If there is an issue with OOC exploitation, then isn't it the job of the GMs to resolve it by speaking with the parties in question and issuing punishment where deserved? Or should we remove the combat system too, because my character got ghosted the other day?

Even if the removal of prison walls was somehow a sensible solution to whatever problem exists here, would it not be the job of the GMs to take care of this? Why is a dev getting involved with IG happenings?

The Town Guard is ineffective enough as it is. This move only maims them further. How are characters in authority supposed to punish other characters now? Fines are fine for small crimes. But more serious ones warrant a more serious punishment. I see nothing but an increased number of ghostings coming from this.

If Illarion had actively promoted cooperative roleplaying in the past, then this might have worked. But it hasn't done so. (Writing 'play together' wherever it seems applicable does not count.) The community has not been trained to cooperate. Many players have developed strong negative feelings for other players. People will refuse to cooperate or simply not even attempt to, which will just lead to more !gm's being sent. You are only going to create more work for the GMs, when this is something that could have been simply monitored and solved by the GMs in the first place.

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Post by bdgdkay » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:02 pm

Grokk wrote: If Illarion had actively promoted cooperative roleplaying in the past, then this might have worked. But it hasn't done so. (Writing 'play together' wherever it seems applicable does not count.) The community has not been trained to cooperate. Many players have developed strong negative feelings for other players. People will refuse to cooperate or simply not even attempt to, which will just lead to more !gm's being sent. You are only going to create more work for the GMs, when this is something that could have been simply monitored and solved by the GMs in the first place.
Actually, Punisher and I were two of the people accused of playing against each other.. We've been cooperating quite nicely with each other today.

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Post by Elijah » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:03 pm

Okay. Let me get this straight:

For the next month or so until the VBU comes out, the Town Guard will only be able to fine and banish people from the Town. If said people come into town, the only option is to playerkill them or spend countless hours politely asking the stubborn characters to leave, and god forbid they are the stubborn PGed type who think because they possess yellow skills they are demi-gods. And your resolution to this? More stress on the already depleted Staff who are busy with the said VBU and who have better things to do?

This move actually only warrants more and more "aggressive playing" because now bad characters (who are normally the aggressive ones) can PK and raid the town without any consequences.

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:07 pm

You forget that Vilarion isn't just a dev. He is ueber-staff. For all we know this decision was made amongst all the staff and he was the one charged with dealing with it.

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Post by Punisher » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:07 pm

Thats because you are one of the few that accept compromises when it comes to their chars.. not many are like you. Most people do not understand the concept of "losing". I, myself, a few days back I have told a GM that if my char were to be defeated by a rebellion, I would make him leave the island until the VBU. Not accepting defeat only ruins the RP atmosphere and that is what most people do not understand.

My sincere opinion about the removal of the jail is that while it forces players to cooperate OOCly, it is totally disregarded that not all will allow bad things to happen to their chars and we have many many examples of such things from the past. Like Grokk said, this will only lead to an exponential increase in ghostings.

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Post by Vilarion » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:24 pm

With the update, there will be no more jails, so it is time to get used to it, step by step. Because playing together was not suggested enough in the past, we should just have people fight their ooc battles ingame and have GMs running around to look after them? I do not think so. Many people put a lot of work into the coming update and so need to do the players on a social basis. Of course this will not happen overnight, but I expect everybody to try.

It really saddens me, that after an explanatory post the first posts are:
"meh hab lolled, rofl" and "this is pure stupidity, lol, rofl"

Such behaviour has no place in Illarion, and who still thinks otherwise after rereading the behavioural guidelines, should probably look for another game.

All the hints towards a general change of attitude do not come from me as some random dev, but from the chairman of the Illarion society. With the update, hopefully a whole new bunch of players will come. If those players are scared away immediatly because of some few disturbing elements, all the hard work will have been for nothing.

Seems that I got carried away a little bit into off topic, but I really want the current atmosphere to change. So please bear with me, everyone and give it your all :)

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Post by Juliana D'cheyne » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:53 pm

Thank you @Vilarion, this seems a wonderful idea. There have actually been quite a few times I recall someone being "jailed" and standing in front of the jail until "released" due to a guard not having a key, all this without any ghosting by the way and fun RP for "criminal" and "guard". I am looking forward to less "I win" situations with none or bare minimum RP up to ghosting, to more cooperative roleplay from all players.

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Post by zda » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:07 am

not to say deleting the jail was a bad thing but couldn't you have not rest the entire map. there are multiple buildings broken along with some underground things. like the grovestrider cave.

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Post by Vilarion » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:17 am

The restoration of the map came with some wildfires, destroying a great deal of Trolls Bane. I disabled random wildfires for the time being.

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Post by Colin Smalls » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:54 am

--Please refrain from insulting others, furthermore it's not up to you, to judge RP of other people--
Best regards, Zot

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Post by Elijah » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:57 am

Ouch. Somebody's cranky.

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Post by Evan Ross » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:00 am

Re: Jail: Take 2

Did not think I'd be quoting anything from a post I couldn't disagree more with.
But @ PO Colin Smalls,
Vilarion wrote: If your characters are enemies, that does not mean, that you as players have to be enemies as well.

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Post by Colin Smalls » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:14 am

I'm not enemies with PO Elijah. I don't know him personally.

I disapprove with how he's been roleplaying, and yes I think his character is a crappy governor.

I bare no ill will to him personally though.

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Post by Elijah » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:16 am

Right, mate. I don't really understand what made you want to blind side me with a insult, but I'm pretty sure that was the most random thing I've seen since my time in Illarion.


This is a thread about the jail system. Not about insulting another player, when you yourself are guilty of similar accusations. Go ahead and insult me, try to play my comments off anyway you like, but this isn't the thread for such things. Being such a high mighty person as yourself, who is blameless of any OOC or bug abuse, you should know this.

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Post by Colin Smalls » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:21 am

I just say what I think needs to be said man.

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Post by Asyur » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:49 am

At the topic at hand: Jail Removal

Excellent idea. This is noticeably a different change of pace; there are plenty of roleplaying games without a jail that players can still roleplay fine and have a fair amount of chaotic characters.

At Elijah and Colin Smalls: Argument

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of each other, each others' characters, and their roleplaying style - as well as everything else in this world. It is natural that humans (correct me if you are NOT human) will not agree on everything. Wars happen, duels are fought, people are killed... It's natural that we will sometimes disagree. However, we should be respectful of each others' opinions in this matter and not turn this into another flame war topic, when the original posting was about a jail removal notification.

Thanks.

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Post by Grokk » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:55 am

I like how Vilarion didn't address any of the questions or concerns raised throughout the thread.
Colin Smalls wrote:--Please refrain from insulting others, furthermore it's not up to you, to judge RP of other people--
Best regards, Zot.
I don't know how that could be taken as anything other than a personal attack on the POs and a serious mixing of OOC and IC matters. If you don't punish this sort of thing, then player cooperation doesn't work.

How about we all come clean and admit that people like this are the real reason the prison has been removed? There is a whole heap of OOC bullshit surrounding the goings-on in Troll's Bane, everyone knows about it, and the staff have been unable or unwilling to deal with it. This 'solution' will only exacerbate the problem.

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Post by Colin Smalls » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:54 am

I assure you, the prison removal is nothing to do with me Grokk. I'm flattered that you think I'm capable of weilding such influence. :)

Perhaps my words were a little harsh, or over the top. I'm sorry if I upset anyone.

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Post by Jaiyra el'Brahminn » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:06 am

Being in prison is way more fun now. Just saying.

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Post by Triton » Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:46 am

Image

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:06 am

Jaiyra el'Brahminn wrote:Being in prison is way more fun now. Just saying.
Sure it is. Until you drop the soap. :twisted:

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Post by Lia » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:08 pm

I find this reaction well.
the prison is to remove entirely a matter of opinion, but as it is now it is good.
The prisoners sit around not only stupid, because none of the government / Guard players are so swayed, even the players of prisoners to allow rp chars. (So it was very often the case)
You can now also be visited.

The prison should be a punishment for the chars and NOT for the players.

Accordingly, thank Vilarion


((translate by google))

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Post by Lrmy » Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:31 pm

Honestly, I was all for jailing in the other topic but.... The removal of the jail seems like a good idea if POs of banned characters can be responsible or make good RP decisions. Is it also safe to assume the players will be punished OOCly if they cannot manage to accept their in game punishments by walking around in town openly as if nothing happened?

@Lia No guards had keys as far as I know.

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Post by Siltaris » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:11 pm

I've ever hated the jail anyway.. 8)

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Post by AlexRose » Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:04 am

Yeah, you really hated the jail when you locked up your only competition to Governorship in it. :P

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Post by Ezor Edwickton » Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:10 am

Where is the fun/thrill of breaking the law if you can't go to jail?

Maybe the jail system was broken and maybe even abused, but I feel like this is just someone taking away a toy because a few people can't play nice.
Maybe not a bad move to defuse whatever was going on, but I'd like to see some sort of jail system return in the future.

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Post by Jaiyra el'Brahminn » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:00 am

Oh there's still a prison, Ezor. It's just being roleplayed now. Come visit and you'll see!

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:00 am

I'd like to see some sort of jail system return in the future.
As it was written somewhere above, after the very big update, we'll have a rather sophisticated "jail system".

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Post by Siltaris » Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:56 am

AlexRose wrote:Yeah, you really hated the jail when you locked up your only competition to Governorship in it. :P
At least I didn't kill my competitor.. :twisted: :wink:

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