Jail

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Post by Lucy Bann » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:29 am

Continuing on the topic of public humiliation, there could be a "atmosphere" line pop up (similar to the Grovestrider crest thingy) when you click on criminals, showing that they have a letter branded on their arm, or a sign saying "THIEF", etc, etc.

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Post by Orioli » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:31 am

Dantagon Marescot wrote:
Kamilar wrote:*licks Dantagon, for old-time's sake*
>.> *LICKS*

And on topic... ^^ I really like the idea of public humiliation, especially for the lesser crimes. Someone could be selling tomatoes or other spoiled foods. Have a sign up off to the side with the name and crime on it. Have two npc guards, or even two real ones guarding him at all times, so people can't come up and talk to him. Make an afternoon out of it. I like.
An opportunity is being borne here I think to expand the variety AND fun element of imprisonment in game!

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Post by Grokk » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:33 am

If someone has spent 1 or 2 months+ in prison (and their sentence is ongoing), PM a few IG friends and a GM and organise an escape.

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Post by wolfsword » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:35 am

?
I can see the jailed people's side, but... well, the other side makes much more sense. Obviously living a dangerous life and breaking people's rules will come with risks- going to jail for periods of time, or death. If they got it easier, Samuel would pk half the town, poison the food all in TB, and burn the woods. (Nah, he wouldn't.)

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Post by Orioli » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:39 am

Something to be said for the fact that having been on both sides of crime ig expands your understanding and consideration on this topic.

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:39 am

Ezor Edwickton wrote: Wait i just read this. Is this for real??? Are prison sentences going on for 4 rl months??? That does seem real extreme. I believe in the past there were actual ooc rules for jail, but they always seemed to short if I remember correctly. You have to remember this isn't supposed to be a medieval simulation game.
Yes, sir, from what I have been reading the past few days (in place of studying), it is true.

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Post by Lucy Bann » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:39 am

wolfsword wrote:?
I can see the jailed people's side, but... well, the other side makes much more sense. Obviously living a dangerous life and breaking people's rules will come with risks- going to jail for periods of time, or death. If they got it easier, Samuel would pk half the town, poison the food all in TB, and burn the woods. (Nah, he wouldn't.)

I don't think anybody is seriously suggesting that there should be NO punishments, but a petty thief shouldn't be locked in a cell and left there, because there are no guards to let him out... this also applies to the current political prisoners... they're playing pretty important roles in the ongoing government plot, and yet, because they stepped up to the plate they are losing out on RP that could be quite interesting.

The current prison system isn't an awful system, it's simple and doesn't require much effort, which a lot of times is great, but it could stand to be improved, and there are more interesting facets that can be added.
Last edited by Lucy Bann on Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by wolfsword » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:40 am

Lucy Bann wrote:
wolfsword wrote:?
I can see the jailed people's side, but... well, the other side makes much more sense. Obviously living a dangerous life and breaking people's rules will come with risks- going to jail for periods of time, or death. If they got it easier, Samuel would pk half the town, poison the food all in TB, and burn the woods. (Nah, he wouldn't.)

I don't think anybody is seriously suggesting that there should be NO punishments, but a petty thief shouldn't be locked in a cell and left there, because there are no guards to let him out... this also applies to the current political prisoners... they're playing pretty important roles in the ongoing government plot, and yet, because they stepped up to the plate they are losing out on RP that could be quite interesting.
Oh, yeah, wasn't suggesting that for the former, but for the latter (The political prisoners). Sadly, they got caught.

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Post by Orioli » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:46 am

Public ridicule and even rotten tomato throwing.. permanent tattoos showing they are criminals... caged in town square and jeered at... now that is a huge improvement already over the current process of locking them up where they can't be seen or heard from. Even noncriminals should have less reason to dislike imprisonment, if it means they still get to play the character in some capacity.
Last edited by Orioli on Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Lucy Bann » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:46 am

wolfsword wrote:
Lucy Bann wrote:
wolfsword wrote:?
I can see the jailed people's side, but... well, the other side makes much more sense. Obviously living a dangerous life and breaking people's rules will come with risks- going to jail for periods of time, or death. If they got it easier, Samuel would pk half the town, poison the food all in TB, and burn the woods. (Nah, he wouldn't.)

I don't think anybody is seriously suggesting that there should be NO punishments, but a petty thief shouldn't be locked in a cell and left there, because there are no guards to let him out... this also applies to the current political prisoners... they're playing pretty important roles in the ongoing government plot, and yet, because they stepped up to the plate they are losing out on RP that could be quite interesting.
Oh, yeah, wasn't suggesting that for the former, but for the latter (The political prisoners). Sadly, they got caught.
Yes, I realize this, but that doesn't mean that the RP should just stop there. What's the purpose of capturing a political prisoner that no one knows about, secretly? I would think it would make more sense to make an example out of him, by showing him off (like in the Robert the Bruce example I cited earlier) decrease morale of the opposing party, warn people against going against the gov't in the future, etc. If you murder someone quietly, then, I'm sorry, but that's a total waste of plot potential.

((also, i'm sorry for editing after you quoted me, i only added on to the end, but still, i know that can be annoying! :oops: ))

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Post by Athian » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:59 am

Lucy Bann wrote: Yes, I realize this, but that doesn't mean that the RP should just stop there. What's the purpose of capturing a political prisoner that no one knows about, secretly?
So that the jailers have time to downplay any politcal unrest and make up there reasons for why the person was jailed. Generally its the time used for thinking up big long winded speeches that go round in circles...like any good politican :wink:

IF anything could be improved i would say some strong OOC rules need to be established about how jailing and imprisonment work IG. Too often jailing is abused as an "alternative" to perma killing an enemy. Sadly not everyone can jail everyone else, so we have a small minority of people who use jailing as a means of OOC control. I will not name any names, but I've heard of afew occasions where threats have been made about players characters being jailed for excessive amounts of time if they even "think about rebelling" or simply do something in a manner that the jailers don't like them too, with several of these occasions having to do with forum posts rather then IG happenings.

All RP reasons aside even the potential of having one player character remove another player character from the game for an excessive amount of time is something that needs serious monitoring and consideration. Its should be in no player's rights to stop another from playing the game.

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Post by Velisai » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:10 am

Sadly our map wasn't designed with much thought given to aspects as this one. Ideally, the prison would be a town in itself, where you can spend weeks and months actually RPing. It would have a cell block, guards, a labor camp, workshop, cantina and a chapel. It should be possible to have a char in there for the rest of his/her life and still have fun playing. There can even be a public humiliation pit and all that, the more possibilities, the better.

There is the issue of underpopulation for such a large complex, but if after the VBU, the player count increases again it might work, especially if the prison were an independent, politically neutral guild that takes criminals from every settlement. Or Elijah imprisons us all. ;)

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Post by Orioli » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:29 am

I once sugested using hellsbriar kind of like that but was shot down :(

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Post by Qeewee » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:31 am

Velisai wrote:Sadly our map wasn't designed with much thought given to aspects as this one. Ideally, the prison would be a town in itself, where you can spend weeks and months actually RPing. It would have a cell block, guards, a labor camp, workshop, cantina and a chapel. It should be possible to have a char in there for the rest of his/her life and still have fun playing. There can even be a public humiliation pit and all that, the more possibilities, the better.

There is the issue of underpopulation for such a large complex, but if after the VBU, the player count increases again it might work, especially if the prison were an independent, politically neutral guild that takes criminals from every settlement. Or Elijah imprisons us all. ;)
Could anyone who knows these things say if this could be added with the VBU?! :shock: Sounds like a really great solution! (except for all the work it would take to make ofc, but I bet it would be worth it)

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Post by TiaSarah » Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:45 am

Qeewee wrote:
Velisai wrote:Sadly our map wasn't designed with much thought given to aspects as this one. Ideally, the prison would be a town in itself, where you can spend weeks and months actually RPing. It would have a cell block, guards, a labor camp, workshop, cantina and a chapel. It should be possible to have a char in there for the rest of his/her life and still have fun playing. There can even be a public humiliation pit and all that, the more possibilities, the better.

There is the issue of underpopulation for such a large complex, but if after the VBU, the player count increases again it might work, especially if the prison were an independent, politically neutral guild that takes criminals from every settlement. Or Elijah imprisons us all. ;)
Could anyone who knows these things say if this could be added with the VBU?! :shock: Sounds like a really great solution! (except for all the work it would take to make ofc, but I bet it would be worth it)

I think our poor, overworked volunteers already have enough on their plates with the VBU.... Maybe we should just leave this as an idea for after it's done.

And my two coppers on it, perhaps make a special island with a dock and/or teleporter to reach it. That way none of the cities would have to be restructured, and it could still be accessible to the general population

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Post by Llama » Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:11 am

From what I know - prisons will be changed with the VBU and converted into labour camps of sorts.

Instead of spending 5 days locked in a cell doing nothing, you can do some menial labour (mining for example) while in a 'special location' in order to work off your jail time.

Problem solved?

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Post by Punisher » Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:29 am

Re: Jail

Kamilar wrote:Too many players/characters are not logging in because of the jail system right now. Maybe we should talk about it?
Sure, let's talk.. you dont want to go to jail, stop playing shady/criminal chars, or don't get caught. Simple as that. You can't expect to walk freely without any consequence. You don't like the jail idea? then come with an alternative.. myself, I'd be for char lives, like suggested in another tread by someone. Lets see then how many chars will like breaking the laws of town just because they are bored of their dull campfire talks.
My personal opinion is that players should not have the ability to jail one another. I would recommend the radical move of removing all locks and keys from the game to prevent players from using them to try and dominate one another.
It has been said before, but I need to say it again. When you break the law of a town, you are playing against those players.. so you are basically saying.. I WANT TO BE BAD BUT I WANT NO CONSEQUENCE TO IT! ...well, cry me a river! You don't want to be played against, don't engage in this kind of play.
I think jailing should be agreed between players oocly, same as permadeath of a character or any other edgy aspect of roleplay.

Sure.. then next time when a char commits a crime, he should first send a pm to the guards and ask if they agree to let him do it. Sounds fair?
I think the jailing of characters should have closer GM oversight and possibly have a temporary ban on a jailed character to enforce the game play. I think a limit of a few hours to a couple of days should be sufficient. The never-ending jail sentence that players currently use to ban the characters of other players is significantly flawed.
On a good page, all of these will be solved with the VBU..
However explain to me this.. you plan revolution, you go to jail for a few hours... then what? you go out and carry on.. Don't tell me that your char miraculously forgets all about his/her plans after a brief visit in a cell.
This is a game, I agree, but it's not a PVP game, it's a roleplay game, which means it has to simulate reality more or less. In medieval times, any talk of treason would lead to a quick trial and a even quicker execution.
The major complaint about jailing is that the game prison functions as an oubliette with a one-way door and no RP on the other side. If this can't be changed, the GM team should take a hard look at whether the jail should remain.
Again.. you dont want to go to jail, don't commit crimes or don't get caught. Simple no?

/two cents

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Post by Noon » Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:39 am

In honesty i dont see a problem.

If people do not agree with the reasons that others are getting jailed, act against the jailor ( IC ).

If the majority agree with the jailor, which would suggest he is not a tyrant, then set about IC means to get your friend out of the jail ( IC ).

This is how it was done in the old day at least, and i think we were all quite content with the jailing system apart from Fooser. :wink:

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Post by Lrmy » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:00 am

I'm pro in game jails. Having had characters executed/jailed for a long period of time, I am sympathetic. It's hard to loose a character or not be able to play one. But the truth is..if you do extreme things you get extreme consequences. Start with a new character if you have to and if you think you were treated wrong in ANY OOC fashion, contact a GM.

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Post by Grokk » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:41 am

5 consecutive posts in this thread, all of which are sensible and intelligent responses? The Americans must be asleep.

edit so that this spam post has something resembling a disguise:
I agree with the sentiments expressed by Punisher (perhaps in a slightly less provocative tone), Noon, and Lrmy. Also, the labour camp change sounds promising. Nothing much to do but wait and see I guess.

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Post by Orioli » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:22 am

Grokk wrote:5 consecutive posts in this thread, all of which are sensible and intelligent responses? The Americans must be asleep.

edit so that this spam post has something resembling a disguise:
I agree with the sentiments expressed by Punisher (perhaps in a slightly less provocative tone), Noon, and Lrmy. Also, the labour camp change sounds promising. Nothing much to do but wait and see I guess.
Slandering a nation because you want your way *only* isn't very nice. In fact I think it is a pure flame.

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Post by Grim_banned » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:23 am

Chill, he was kidding. Lrmy is American too :)

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Post by Llama » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:34 am

Grokk wrote:5 consecutive posts in this thread, all of which are sensible and intelligent responses? The Americans must be asleep.
I guess that makes you a c-c-c-combo breaker then.

*arranges tie and walks out*

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Post by Grokk » Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:06 pm

Ha!

I'm thinking: this thread just keeps exceeding expectations.

edit:
Elijah wrote:Image

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Post by Kamilar » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:00 pm

Yeah, let's not start pointing fingers at the nationalities of players here, please. And do try to stay on topic.

*hands out all the appropriate licks from the posts made while she was sleeping*

And just to stay focused .... no one is suggesting that IG actions should have no consequences. The point is that the system right now is flawed and a roleplay killer.

Starling had some fantastic roleplay as a prisoner in the Nordmark. She insulted the jarl and did her time. The difference is that the Nordmark POs logged in every day and played their parts. All the players involved had fun, including the PO behind the prisoner, and we all stayed friendly despite the IG conflict. It can be done.

In the current system, the character gets shoved into a box with no one else in it. Let's face it, roleplay with no conflict is boring. No one would read a book or watch a movie that didn't have some core conflict to be resolved. That's the whole point. Removing all interest from the game by eliminating or greatly curtailing the possibility of conflict is bad for the game, in my opinion. Also bad for the game is having one or two players decide what sort of roleplay is permitted and letting them ban the characters that don't fit into their gameworld view. This is a GM function, not a player function.

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Post by Lucy Bann » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:41 pm

"If you don't want to be jailed, don't play a criminal." By saying this, and continuing with this system, you're making roleplaying an interesting world difficult. If everyone is either a leader or a follower and there is no one to work against the grain like a bandit or a rebel, then there would be very little to no fear, or conflict.

When people IC break the IC rules, yes, they should be punished, but not by being banned from doing exactly what the ""RPG Guide" encourages people to do, play an 'evil' character. Eventually, if this system of jailing goes on, no one is going to want to be evil or even bad, except for the powerful few or any newbies that might come along.

The current jailing system is clearly a OOC punishment for an IC event.

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Post by Aristeaus » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:50 pm

Lucy Bann wrote:"If you don't want to be jailed, don't play a criminal." By saying this, and continuing with this system, you're making roleplaying an interesting world difficult. If everyone is either a leader or a follower and there is no one to work against the grain like a bandit or a rebel, then there would be very little to no fear, or conflict.

When people IC break the IC rules, yes, they should be punished, but not by being banned from doing exactly what the ""RPG Guide" encourages people to do, play an 'evil' character. Eventually, if this system of jailing goes on, no one is going to want to be evil or even bad, except for the powerful few or any newbies that might come along.

The current jailing system is clearly a OOC punishment for an IC event.
Hi Lucy :)

I agree with mostly what you write, yet players of bandits/criminals must realise the risk they take in creating such a character. A evil/grey character can be very rewarding yet at the same time you have to sacriface much to get this reward. In creating such a character you are in a way agreeing to sacriface some of your own freedom to create roleplay for others. And if this is not rewarding enough for the characters which do this they are really not playing a role which is suited to them.

There are a number of options available to these characters which are jailed, some of which involve the help of other players and GM's to create a situation in which they are freed. If you look to it in this way you will see that instead of an OOC abusement the jail system is infact a instance of roleplay waiting to happen, and all it takes is some initiative.

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Post by Stig » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:42 pm

I have to say that I believe it to be a great idea to make the punishments more visible than they are at this point. Public humiliation and enforced labour seem to be god alternatives for less serious crimes, the enforced labour may even work for some more grave ones as well. All that is needed for the enforced labour is actually two guards (in case one of them needs to leave suddenly), some RP chains and something to do, be it mining, woodcutting or perhaps constructing buildings (after the VBU of course and only if there is any ongoing construction) for the town or building/repairing roads. Should there ever be any ongoing war one may even consider serving in the army as an alternative to a punishment. Then of course there are those crimes that can only end with execution, but it may be possible to arrange an escape, even though you won't ever again be able to show your face in the city the crime was committed and risk being hunted down by bounty hunters.

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Post by Llama » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:45 pm

Stig wrote: and risk being hunted down by bounty hunters.
That's just the problem. In Real life death-threats are serious. In Illarion all you need to do is:

1. Log on when nobody else is
2. Get killed once and end of story (or get killed multiple times and complain about reskilling).

So I do think there should be a large "Punishment", but effectivly banning people isn't it.

Labour camp should work well. A large complex where you get let out eventually, and you get the chance to communicate with fellow inmates and drop the soap should be fun.

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Post by Kamilar » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:51 pm

Hadrian_Abela wrote:A large complex where you get let out eventually, and you get the chance to communicate with fellow inmates and drop the soap should be fun.
That was hilarious. :D But along the lines I'm thinking too, just maybe without the soap?

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