Jail

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zda

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Post by zda » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:09 am

Re: Jail

Kamilar wrote: I would recommend the radical move of removing all locks and keys from the game to prevent players from using them to try and dominate one another.
if you remove every lock and key then there would be no use for a privet house. the locks and keys are to keep people in placesthey need to beand other people from were they should not be how would you like to log in with a bandit standing over you?

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Post by Kamilar » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:11 am

Private houses are rare and I don't have one. I face a good chance of logging in with a bandit standing over me every time I get in game. For years the houses in Varhsikar had no locks and it was understood that players were supposed to RP them as locked. It wasn't that bad, to be honest.

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Post by zda » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:13 am

ok lets see there are apartments being rented in trolls bane that are being rented there are rooms in a inn being rented, there are guild halls that they dont want nonmembers getting in. so having locks is a good thing

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Post by Junior Giant » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:13 am

As I posted above, an engine enforced solution can help this. Just like getting ghosted has an engine enforced penalty. If you are tortured and have your legs broken, you can not expect to have the same agility when leaving jail. Harsh treatment in jail will break your constitution and will power. Depending on the nature of your crime, the more you will be beaten. The more you will be hurt on being released. The longer you will be harmed by your treatment in jail.
You will not be able to continue your previous activities with your depleted character stats.
You will still be able to Rp your current situation. Having your character reduced to lowly stats does suck, but if you commit the crime, penalties are a real thing you need too deal with. And these penalties can be temporary or permament, depending on your crime.

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Post by Kamilar » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:17 am

This is an interesting idea, Junior. How do you propose it affecting only the prisoners and not the guards?

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Post by Junior Giant » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:24 am

the guards are not strapped to the torture table. Any damage they may receive getting the character there is already in place.

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Post by Orioli » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:26 am

Junior Giant wrote:As I posted above, an engine enforced solution can help this. Just like getting ghosted has an engine enforced penalty. If you are tortured and have your legs broken, you can not expect to have the same agility when leaving jail. Harsh treatment in jail will break your constitution and will power. Depending on the nature of your crime, the more you will be beaten. The more you will be hurt on being released. The longer you will be harmed by your treatment in jail.
You will not be able to continue your previous activities with your depleted character stats.
You will still be able to Rp your current situation. Having your character reduced to lowly stats does suck, but if you commit the crime, penalties are a real thing you need too deal with. And these penalties can be temporary or permament, depending on your crime.
This avoids the fact before mentioned about the corruption of government and the fact that many jailed characters committed no crime but where still denied role play opportunity. That is totally uncool without an arranged agreement.
In addition they are often pked in the process. If you want to pk me and I have no choice I could deal with it if I know ahead and have a chance to accept that. Sorry but no one wants such a surprise and that mean treatment without any concern for the POs feeling cause: we do have them and denying that is ludicrous.

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Post by bdgdkay » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:28 am

Orioli wrote:
Junior Giant wrote:As I posted above, an engine enforced solution can help this. Just like getting ghosted has an engine enforced penalty. If you are tortured and have your legs broken, you can not expect to have the same agility when leaving jail. Harsh treatment in jail will break your constitution and will power. Depending on the nature of your crime, the more you will be beaten. The more you will be hurt on being released. The longer you will be harmed by your treatment in jail.
You will not be able to continue your previous activities with your depleted character stats.
You will still be able to Rp your current situation. Having your character reduced to lowly stats does suck, but if you commit the crime, penalties are a real thing you need too deal with. And these penalties can be temporary or permament, depending on your crime.
This avoids the fact before mentioned about the corruption of government and the fact that many jailed characters committed no crime but where still denied role play opportunity. That is totally uncool without an arranged agreement.
In addition they are often pked in the process. If you want to pk me and I have no choice I could deal with it if I know ahead and have a chance to accept that. Sorry but no one wants such a surprise and that mean treatment without any concern for the POs feeling cause: we do have them and denying that is ludicrous.
Not to mention that torture is against the rules in the first place.

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Post by Lucy Bann » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:29 am

Alright, I generally make it a rule to stay far, far away from any OOC drama going on, but this is really frustrating me.

All of you so-called superior roleplayers, who are whining about the lack of drama, "campfires" and played-out characters, what the hell is your problem? One of the things that called me to join Illarion was the fact that not every character needed to play a HUGE part, just like not every person in real life has to change the world either. People go about their personal dramas, they joke and make friends, work, etc., etc. Just because not every character is involved in politics or intrigue is not OMG SUPER ORIGINAL AND DEEP like you obviously are, doesn't make us any less than you. The "campfire" people make up the majority of the player base, and just because we don't get as involved as you in debating about things doesn't make us less present. Yes, the game certainly needs tyrants and leaders and so on, but it also needs the average Joe who just tries to focus on his work, family and friends and get through the next day with his sense of humor, just like all of history has needed that.

If this is seriously a problem to you, I suggest you petition for stricter rules or form your own drama club, but please stop whining about the roleplay of characters, the majority of whom do not effect the way you roleplay at all.

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Post by Kamilar » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:32 am

Lucy, I fully agree with you in principle ... but sorry, you get a lick too.

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Post by Orioli » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:34 am

Juliana D'cheyne wrote:
I have two suggestions
1. Start a rebellion.
2. Get in jail then try to discuss all ig how to get out of jail with no one to RP with and a very long sentence, hence the number of RP threads.


Again repeating myself .. ignore if already read.. A GM needs to be involved with a char denied RP opportunities by another player for any length of time. The jail can be better arranged so RP of the char can be done from the jail, or let the char out after a certain length of time.
Surely in this sugestion is a basis for a good discussion of a solution that won't negatively effect the game nor the "fun" for either side.

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Post by Junior Giant » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:36 am

You do have a choice in this. You can resist arrest to the point of being ghosted. Ghosts can't be arrested. I f you choose to RP it out, then you did the crime or not, The enforcement of a reduction in stats, takes a GM to adjust. So the case must be made clear. And to those that just take a ghosting, well that can be looked at too. We all have a log of activities, it is easily proven.

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Post by Kamilar » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:38 am

Hmm... not sure about that Junior. Actually, I think from an engine point of view, it is technically possible to tie up a ghost and drag them to jail. Can anyone else confirm?

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Post by Orioli » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:39 am

Junior Giant wrote:You do have a choice in this. You can resist arrest to the point of being ghosted. Ghosts can't be arrested. I f you choose to RP it out, then you did the crime or not, The enforcement of a reduction in stats, takes a GM to adjust. So the case must be made clear. And to those that just take a ghosting, well that can be looked at too. We all have a log of activities, it is easily proven.
I disagree that being pked to the point of a ghosting is, in effect, a real choice.

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Post by Orioli » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:43 am

The jail can be better arranged so RP of the char can be done from the jail, or let the char out after a certain length of time.

Can we consider a way to make this happen especially when the character is not really guilty of crimes. They would have to agree not to "break out and doing so would be understood to constitute a "real crime" of course. I just want a solution to the lack of RP opportunity for none crimes please.

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Post by Junior Giant » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:48 am

commiting a crime has penalties, just being accused of a crime does too, even today, much more so in an illarion world. If you cant accept the chance of that, dont put your character in that position. If you do, then you must accept some penalty coming your way if caught. Being ghosted is a luxury, you should be dead, or caught and punished.

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Post by Orioli » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:52 am

Junior Giant wrote:commiting a crime has penalties, just being accused of a crime does too, even today, much more so in an illarion world. If you cant accept the chance of that, dont put your character in that position. If you do, then you must accept some penalty coming your way if caught. Being ghosted is a luxury, you should be dead, or caught and punished.
Not putting my character in that position would require me not to play. Please stay with reasonable remarks. Being Ghosted is no luxury. This is a game for fun, not a sadistic journey into bloodthirsty domination.

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Post by Kamilar » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:53 am

*keeps a close eye on things, keeping tongue ready* Don't make me lick you guys.

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Post by Lucy Bann » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:54 am

The fact is that characters are encouraged to play not necessarily "good" characters. While I totally agree that characters should be given IG punishments for crimes they commit, and definite discussion should be placed towards execution of frequent/drastic offenders, POs shouldn't be punished OOC for adding variety to the game by playing a criminal.

I suggest a more interactive jailing system, some sort of stocks, or an openly viewable cell in the town square for people to throw things at. In this way, a character is not getting off easily, but there is still room for the PO to roleplay

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Post by Junior Giant » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:56 am

Exactly why law needs to be enforced. You made my point . Law needs teeth to have any control at all. Do you just want all to be let free? Or the Po to lose their characters for all time in jail?

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Post by Orioli » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:58 am

Lucy Bann wrote:The fact is that characters are encouraged to play not necessarily "good" characters. While I totally agree that characters should be given IG punishments for crimes they commit, and definite discussion should be placed towards execution of frequent/drastic offenders, POs shouldn't be punished OOC for adding variety to the game by playing a criminal.

I suggest a more interactive jailing system, some sort of stocks, or an openly viewable cell in the town square for people to throw things at. In this way, a character is not getting off easily, but there is still room for the PO to roleplay
I really like this idea too i wonder if an area could be arrange with a sort of glass ceiling like a pit where the offender could not leave but could be spoken to and jeered at while being allowed to speak back and bemoan the conditions of prison life .. in the center of town would be fun. Great expansion of the idea Lucy!

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:03 am

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 346#634346

*Cough* opps, didn't realize there was a topic going on about it already.

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Post by Kamilar » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:05 am

*licks Dantagon, for old-time's sake*

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Post by Junior Giant » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:10 am

I like the idea as well, but wonder. I have only been here for two years, but how does that effect our player base, already much reduced. In my suggestion, you still can play. Gain skills, enjoy your time here. You will no longer be a danger, because those stats are reduced, for a time but you can do other things. Learn a trade, learn to RP. Sometimes the weakest characters are the most fun.

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Post by Ezor Edwickton » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:11 am

I don't see the big deal. In order to have some good rp everyone has to give a little. If your character is "bad" or just happens to find himself in jail for other reasons, that is your 'giving.'

If you're likely to get jailed have other chars to play also. If you are jailed and don't have another char, just go make one. You don't need to be using your char with PG'd stats to have a good time (or rather you shouldn't).

It seems like too many people nowadays are trying to 'win' at this game. There is no winning, it's a sand box game and we play with each other not against!

Just my two cents.

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Post by Lucy Bann » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:17 am

That's true, and I myself agree with you, I have FIVE characters, and most of them relatively weak ( am allergic to PGing.) But some people get very, understandably attached to a character, or don't necessarily want to start a new char only to abandon them when their sentence is finished and want to continue roleplay.

I'd also like to point out historically (as much as you hear about dungeons.) the majority of prisoners/criminals were NOT imprisoned, mostly being punished through public humiliation, at all for most of history, and in fact that was used only as a coercion technique for political prisoners and even in that case there is exceptions, such as the female relatives of Scottish king, Robert the Bruce. His daughter, wife and sisters were captured, and his sisters were put in solitary confinement, in wooden cages placed in public squares, left to the elements and harassed both verbally and physically, so making punishments, no less harsh, while keeping them interactive and not dulling the RP is possible, if we choose to emulate history.

(Disclaimer: I am not saying that Illarion NEEDS to be, or even should be, historically accurate, I just find history useful when looking for ideas.)

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Post by Ezor Edwickton » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:23 am

Dantagon Marescot wrote:http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 346#634346

*Cough* opps, didn't realize there was a topic going on about it already.
Wait i just read this. Is this for real??? Are prison sentences going on for 4 rl months??? That does seem real extreme. I believe in the past there were actual ooc rules for jail, but they always seemed to short if I remember correctly. You have to remember this isn't supposed to be a medieval simulation game.

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Post by Orioli » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:26 am

Grokk wrote:I'm thinking:
This is just a case of the messenger being shot. The punishment/law enforcement system is completely retarded. Its faults have little to do with the people forced to use it. Anyone who has played a character somehow involved with the law (both inside and outside of it) knows this. It is why the Town Guards are such a joke, and why criminals are able to easily exploit the system. Authorities can't be expected to release murderers back onto the streets in a matter of hours/days/weeks. But POs don't want to be stopped from playing their characters. One side's argument is perfectly understandable from an IC perspective, the other's perfectly understandable from an OOC perspective.

Its something that should really be taken care of by the staff, in my opinion. There needs to be consequences for characters who break IG laws, but it is wrong to punish the PO for the RP actions of their character. A compromise needs to be found, and there needs to be a system put in place. The introduction of the NPC guards was a tiny step in the right direction, but nothing ever came of it unfortunately.
Dantagon Marescot wrote:I am thinking that I agree with Grokk and it is something I know all too well. Your character did something wrong, I'm sorry, my character looks like a joke if I just let you go and looks even more like a joke if someone comes in and busts you out in less than an hour. Yes, it sucks, I'm sorry. But there is a consequence for all actions. 4 real life months does seem extreme. On the other hand that is what, an ig year? There are people that complain that this game isn't realistic enough to the time/life. I am not pointing fingers as I can't even remember who has said what in the past 2 years, but for those who want realism, honestly, a murder should be dead on the spot, within a year, or will never be seen again.

On the other hand, no one wants to lose a character they enjoy playing. Especially now as it seems to be harder and harder to get into this game if you are new/returning/starting anew. There is no easy solution to this. If it isn't left to the staff to play moderator, then everyone has to sit down and agree on a charter as to how to deal with punishments. And quite frankly, I don't see that ever happening.
I like the input here of both Grokk and Dan. So I hope we continue this discussion with a calm approach and consideration of the "fun" aspect that the game should hold. Dan i think It is possible to create that charter if it is agreed on in town and/or game rules.
Also on the idea of a pit prison. The NPCs could be the reason that the characters could not get out of a glass ceilinged pit. they could be put in it from an underground door and a lattice of some kind shows on the top to explain why you can walk over it. I believe this is possible, using a pit it would be not unlike looking over a cliff to the ground below. As we all know you cannot jump down or climb up if there is a ceiling, just use null tiles with a grid superimposed on the top to effect the pit ceiling. Can this be considered?
Last edited by Orioli on Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Kamilar » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:26 am

Yes, Ezor. That's the objection I'm making.

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:26 am

Kamilar wrote:*licks Dantagon, for old-time's sake*
>.> *LICKS*

And on topic... ^^ I really like the idea of public humiliation, especially for the lesser crimes. Someone could be selling tomatoes or other spoiled foods. Have a sign up off to the side with the name and crime on it. Have two npc guards, or even two real ones guarding him at all times, so people can't come up and talk to him. Make an afternoon out of it. I like.

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