Jail

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Post by Kamilar » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:26 am

Jail

This is a hot OOC topic currently. Too many players/characters are not logging in because of the jail system right now. Maybe we should talk about it?

My personal opinion is that players should not have the ability to jail one another. I would recommend the radical move of removing all locks and keys from the game to prevent players from using them to try and dominate one another.

I think jailing should be agreed between players oocly, same as permadeath of a character or any other edgy aspect of roleplay. I think the jailing of characters should have closer GM oversight and possibly have a temporary ban on a jailed character to enforce the game play. I think a limit of a few hours to a couple of days should be sufficient. The never-ending jail sentence that players currently use to ban the characters of other players is significantly flawed.

The major complaint about jailing is that the game prison functions as an oubliette with a one-way door and no RP on the other side. If this can't be changed, the GM team should take a hard look at whether the jail should remain.

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Post by Elijah » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:28 am

A little too harsh.

But either way, I hope this thread doesn't spiral off into the no man's land of flaming. I honestly look forward to some of the suggestions that might be discussed within.

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Post by bdgdkay » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Jail

Kamilar wrote: I think jailing should be agreed between players oocly, same as permadeath of a character or any other edgy aspect of roleplay. I think the jailing of characters should have closer GM oversight and possibly have a temporary ban on a jailed character to enforce the game play. I think a limit of a few hours to a couple of days should be sufficient. The never-ending jail sentence that players currently use to ban the characters of other players is significantly flawed.
I agree with this completely. Putting the ability to essentially ban characters into the hands of players really isn't a good idea. And I have played both sides of this system, so I would know. Either that, or I think there needs to be a reform of the jail system so that there is some sort of rp available, whether it is a communal jail system which allows for all the prisoners to be in the same room so they can rp, or what, I don't care. Right now, you get a few minutes of rp, the lock goes click, and you log out for several days because you know you'd be wasting your time to sit and wait for someone to come rp with you.

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Post by Kamilar » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:38 am

Elijah wrote:I hope this thread doesn't spiral off into the no man's land of flaming.
Thanks for reminding me, Elijah. No flaming or Starling will lick you. I'm watching. :twisted:

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Post by Juliana D'cheyne » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:39 am

I have no problem with players jailing other players yet think there should be an oocly max time allowed before a GM is involved in it.. possibly 8 hours in game. In the past some jailers have been very good about visiting their charges.. bringing food and I have even made a couple of temp chars that were jailed to keep someone company :wink: at the request of the guard. Jail as a punishment for a char is fine... as a punishment for the PO is not. Yes, the char may continue his/her rebellion, continue his/her life of robbery (..and I am assuming the PO enjoys this type of RP and if it gets out of hand or disturbs other player's RP a GM should be called ).

Enough jail time, the char may change it's ways.. may not. However it is not up to the players to perform the role of a GM by keeping a char in jail permanently/which is akin to banning or for a very long time.

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Post by Elijah » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:42 am

Grokk wrote:I'm thinking:

This is just a case of the messenger being shot. The punishment/law enforcement system is completely retarded. Its faults have little to do with the people forced to use it. Anyone who has played a character somehow involved with the law (both inside and outside of it) knows this. It is why the Town Guards are such a joke, and why criminals are able to easily exploit the system. Authorities can't be expected to release murderers back onto the streets in a matter of hours/days/weeks. But POs don't want to be stopped from playing their characters. One side's argument is perfectly understandable from an IC perspective, the other's perfectly understandable from an OOC perspective.

Its something that should really be taken care of by the staff, in my opinion. There needs to be consequences for characters who break IG laws, but it is wrong to punish the PO for the RP actions of their character. A compromise needs to be found, and there needs to be a system put in place. The introduction of the NPC guards was a tiny step in the right direction, but nothing ever came of it unfortunately.
Just thought I'd add this here, since it has some valid points.

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Post by Flux » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:00 am

You think temporary bans for people who break ig laws, thus completely eradicating any chance for rp is a good solution for "People can't log in and rp"? There's a simple way to not get in jail; don't break the laws. You can't complain about facing the consequences of the actions you know you're risking when you decide to break laws, which essentially means playing 'against' other players. Most crimes ingame ruin someone else's fun anyway, so whining that you then have nothing to do is redundant. You have 5 character slots.

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Post by bdgdkay » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:05 am

Flux wrote:You think temporary bans for people who break ig laws, thus completely eradicating any chance for rp is a good solution for "People can't log in and rp"? There's a simple way to not get in jail; don't break the laws. You can't complain about facing the consequences of the actions you know you're risking when you decide to break laws, which essentially means playing 'against' other players. Most crimes ingame ruin someone else's fun anyway, so whining that you then have nothing to do is redundant. You have 5 character slots.
You may have 5 char slots, but when youve only been playing one of them for 4 years, it can be a little difficult getting into a new character.

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Post by Grokk » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:10 am

It completely destroys the IG atmosphere when you have a murderer walking free after a few days. I dislike the notion that a player expects their character to be a blatant law breaker, and go virtually unpunished. If your character doesn't want to go to prison, don't have them commit a crime, or don't let them get caught.

If a character commits a minor crime, I completely agree with the brief prison term. If the authority refuses to release the prisoner after this time, try to RP it out. If that fails, contact a GM.

But if we are talking about a serious offence, then I am fully behind a lengthy sentence. Murder, assault, treason, and so forth, are all serious crimes. If people didn't get punished for them, society would crumble. Our character's ridiculous immortality on Gobaith doesn't make this any different. It is just poor RP to suggest that your OOC longing to log on to your dull, played out characters should trump any potential consequences faced by said characters for their IG actions. I've had two characters get caught for breaking serious laws. One of them is still in prison (character deleted) and I let two guards execute the other (character deleted.) In fact, I would love to see GM-run executions for serious offenders who repeatedly get caught.

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Post by Kamilar » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:17 am

Flux wrote:You think temporary bans for people who break ig laws, thus completely eradicating any chance for rp is a good solution for "People can't log in and rp"? There's a simple way to not get in jail; don't break the laws. You can't complain about facing the consequences of the actions you know you're risking when you decide to break laws, which essentially means playing 'against' other players. Most crimes ingame ruin someone else's fun anyway, so whining that you then have nothing to do is redundant. You have 5 character slots.
The problem is that power corrupts. Not all of the jailings are for ig law breaks. Certainly the punishments being handed out player to player are not in the best interest of the game. Frankly I'm surprised the GM team hasn't gotten involved before now.

Look at this poor soul...
http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=34374
I find this very difficult to support, no matter how many character slots the player has.

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Post by Elijah » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:18 am

Exactly what I was trying to say in the Off Topic forum. I can relate and even sympathize with you on the fact that minor crimes should not be met with strict consequences IG. However, you can't expect your character to be released after a few days when they have been convicted of treason/admitted to it. Add any other large scale crime to it, and I don't really see anyone's point in the matter. It would destroy the RP for the rest of the game, for someone to be released after killing someone or trying to rebel against the government as if nothing happened. You should have known that was a possibility when you decided to A) murder another character IG and B) start a "rebellion" IG and openly talk about it to every passerby you meet.

Am I saying people's characters are going to be jailed for all of eternity? No. But am I saying that they will be released after committing serious crimes because the player moans and wants to log in (when your character has only been in jail for 4 days)? Nope.

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Post by Junior Giant » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:24 am

Instead of lengthy jail times, that punish the PO with not being IG with his character. Why not have a short stay in jail with a serious reduction of character stats, loss of constitution, strength, agility, willpower, as a result of a punishing sentence in jail. These reductions could be time limited do to the severity of the crime, or the beating the character took as a result of his crime. More serious crimes mean longer reductions of stats.
You will no longer be the Pk'er you once were if your stats are nill. Time to learn to RP in a new way.

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Post by Grokk » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:27 am

Kamilar wrote: The problem is that power corrupts. Not all of the jailings are for ig law breaks. Certainly the punishments being handed out player to player are not in the best interest of the game. Frankly I'm surprised the GM team hasn't gotten involved before now.

Look at this poor soul...
http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=34374
I find this very difficult to support, no matter how many character slots the player has.
Why are you making this an OOC issue? The chap was imprisoned IG. So is everyone else. Just because they weren't jailed for law breaks, doesn't mean they weren't jailed for an IG reason. It is no secret to anyone that the government of Troll's Bane is corrupt/evil/whatever. People should be doing something about it IG, not pissing themselves on the forums. This entire situation just speaks wonders of the people playing this game. Your characters are perfectly content sitting around a campfire making poorly veiled OOC and sexual references, while the town they reside in is run by the nearest thing to a tyrant I've ever met IG.

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Post by Kamilar » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:30 am

Grokk is the first one getting licked. Keep it clean!

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Post by Elijah » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:31 am

I honestly don't see the flame there. It's a valid point.

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Post by Kamilar » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:36 am

Oh, sorry. I should point out that disparaging remarks about individual roleplay is considered flame in this thread. Foul language is not specifically considered flame, but it is discouraged.

One lick for Elijah. :twisted:

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Post by Grokk » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:38 am

It wasn't individual. You are one of many.

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Post by Kamilar » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:41 am

And personal too? Shame!

Another lick for Grokk.

Seriously, let's not make this about criticizing one another's roleplay. It's supposed to be a real discussion. If you can't stick to that, please refrain from posting.

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Post by Elijah » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:44 am

Grokk wrote:
Kamilar wrote: The problem is that power corrupts. Not all of the jailings are for ig law breaks. Certainly the punishments being handed out player to player are not in the best interest of the game. Frankly I'm surprised the GM team hasn't gotten involved before now.

Look at this poor soul...
http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=34374
I find this very difficult to support, no matter how many character slots the player has.
Why are you making this an OOC issue? The chap was imprisoned IG. So is everyone else. Just because they weren't jailed for law breaks, doesn't mean they weren't jailed for an IG reason. It is no secret to anyone that the government of Troll's Bane is corrupt/evil/whatever. People should be doing something about it IG, not moaning about it on the forums. It seems like your characters are perfectly content sitting at campfires, while the closest thing I've seen to a tyrant runs your town.
So you can't derail off subject anymore, and push aside valid facts with your attempts at forum moderation, I edited his post to continue the conversation.

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Post by Kamilar » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:46 am

The subject is the prison system, not roleplay. Feel free to criticize my roleplay and anyone else's you wish. Just please do it in a different thread.

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Post by Elijah » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:48 am

The fact you're not seeing is these jailings are apart of the RP, and in order to talk about them (and ultimately the thread you've linked us to) you must talk about RP. Not one post in here has not talked about RP elements, because quite honestly that is what this thread is about. Imprisonment is something that happens IG and is affected by characters and the people involved IG. Starting a thread about jailing people and the jailing system, and refusing to allow discussion on the RP that affects that system is just absurd.

Unless you're trying to say the jailings are OOC motivated, which they honestly are not.

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Post by Juliana D'cheyne » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:52 am

which essentially means playing 'against' other players. Most crimes ingame ruin someone else's fun anyway,
Actually there have been only one or two I have been involved in that ruined fun.. and that was mine due to the lack of RP. Ghosting, kidnapped, even perma two chars all done with the fun of all players involved.

Yes, the player has more then one char to play.. but that char has a history and could be the player's main char RP wise which is why they may have gotten in jail in the first place. You break the laws you are jailed.. that is reasonable. What is not reasonable is denying the player RP for that char for a very long time.. and that can't be an ig discussion.
This entire situation just speaks wonders of the people playing this game. Your characters are perfectly content sitting around a campfire making poorly veiled OOC and sexual references, while the town they reside in is run by the nearest thing to a tyrant I've ever met IG.
I have two suggestions
1. Start a rebellion.
2. Get in jail then try to discuss all ig how to get out of jail with no one to RP with and a very long sentence, hence the number of RP threads.


Again repeating myself .. ignore if already read.. A GM needs to be involved with a char denied RP opportunities by another player for any length of time. The jail can be better arranged so RP of the char can be done from the jail, or let the char out after a certain length of time.
Last edited by Juliana D'cheyne on Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by bdgdkay » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:52 am

Elijah wrote:The fact you're not seeing is these jailings are apart of the RP, and in order to talk about them (and ultimately the thread you've linked us to) you must talk about RP. Not one post in here has not talked about RP elements, because quite honestly that is what this thread is about. Imprisonment is something that happens IG and is affected by characters and the people involved IG. Starting a thread about jailing people and the jailing system, and refusing to allow discussion on the RP that affects that system is just absurd.

Unless you're trying to say the jailings are OOC motivated, which they honestly are not.
The problem is that the jailings are not part of rp. If it were real rp, there would actually be something to do in the jails. People in real jails actually have people to that they are around, and other things to do. Right now its you just sit in an enclosed room for x days and then you are let back out.

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Post by Kamilar » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:55 am

I'm trying to separate the mechanical system from the roleplay. I think we need to find a better in game system to support the concept of jailing characters that what we currently have. I'm not saying anything about the roleplay involved.

But since you bring it up.... I always suspected the reason Elijah wants Starling in jail is to keep him company. :wink:

And like Flux said... we have 5 character slots. Please try to remember that when making remarks about individual roleplay.

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Post by Elijah » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:58 am

Kamilar wrote:The problem is that power corrupts. Not all of the jailings are for ig law breaks
I'm pretty sure that post begs to differ, love. :wink:

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Post by Kamilar » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:00 am

Elijah, please PM me for a continued personal discussion.

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Post by Elijah » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:03 am

I don't have any intention of speaking to you anymore then I need to. You're not a forum mod and I'm not going to allow you to blatantly suggest the IG jailings are based on OOC, while discussing RP in your entire post, and then turn around and say RP shouldn't be discussed here when every single one of your points have been chewed up and regurgitated as an answer you don't like because it's a fact. It's supposed to be a discussion. People are giving valid points. If you can insult me and the magistrate, then there is no reason why you can say we can't do the same to you.

Your little games don't work with me.

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Post by Kamilar » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:04 am

*whispers* Elijah ... you're ranting dear.

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Post by Grokk » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:05 am

I wish people could be this creative with the production of drama in game.

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Post by Elijah » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:08 am

Image

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