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Post by Elijah » Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:03 am

I've honestly wondered why more people haven't asked me in the past why I'm hardly IG these days. I thought it would be more pronounced since past Governors would have already been overthrown by now. That is mostly due to the fact that like Grokk said, there is a tremendous level of OOC sentiment that follows the role. For example, if someone is jailed IG, it is automaticly an OOC power trip on my part. Even if that person was jailed without my knowledge. If someone hears a rumor that I dislike someone from another settlement on msn, they automatically take precautions IG to stop some supposed "invasion". This OOC mongering presents me with little options IG to enhance RP, such as I tried with honestly making a game wide army that wasn't bent on world domination.

Elijah has been Governor of Troll's Bane for nearly five months, and I've yet to see any reason for any character IG to believe he's planning to overtake rural communities and incorporate them into Troll's Bane. You don't think he couldn't take Greenbriar, for example? It's inactive and doing so would add some nice RP elements to the game. However, I know that is a retarded solution to IG inactiveness because the POs down there would most surely take it as an OOC insult against them. I've thought about creating a mini quest with the GMs that would involve players taking over a lich in Hellbriar and defeating him. Again, those ideals are meaningless because of the lack of OOC support from neighboring people on the island, who would feel their is an ulterior motive. It would be a one sided Troll's Bane affair and severely lack that ingredient that would make it have some level of legacy.*

*Of course these aren't all the ideas I have, but are basic examples I pulled out my brain to prove my point.

Illarion can't be changed by one group, or one entity. In order for there to be any level of widescale and realistic RP in the game, you must have equal effort on all sides. Unfortunately, I just don't think that is possible in this time and day. I'm not, by all means, suggesting I won't try.

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Post by Velisai » Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:41 am

I'm not blaming you for the game's current slowness and certainly don't envy your role as governor.

Personally, I always enjoyed the small events too. One especially memorable was of no importance at all for the rest of the island and only involved 3 chars, no GM and minimal OOC. The first GM quest I was part of, was between only a handful of players, but was the most important thing that ever happened to my char. While politics and grand scale developments are fun as well, I think we(or better you, since I can't really complain about boredom at the moment) lack those little, personal events these days, that shape a char's personality or have a few chars take a central role in something otherwise not too important. This also created many stories to tell and hear in the past.

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Post by Kamilar » Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:53 am

I won't comment on "OOC mongering" here.

I will say that the few times I've seen the governor in game, the only RP I've seen from him was the threat of being put in jail. Maybe that's fun for the part of the governor (though I sincerely doubt it, since he hardly ever logs in), but it's certainly no fun for the rest of us. What amounts to the threat of essentially receiving an indefinite character ban can hardly be classified as demanding "equal effort on all sides."

I personally think the most important thing to remember in RP is that we aren't logging in just to be entertained, but also to entertain others.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:47 pm

Ardian wrote:
Zot wrote:No Charwipe with the VBU!!!
:-P
As semi official feedback to your suggestions, I can say the following:

-We're aware of the "too big" map as it is now. However, the solution we're aiming at is a different one; make the map more "dense" rather than "smaller". What does that mean? If you nowadays walk to e.g. the Nordmark, you cross endless plains of boredom, dull mountains and lonely woods. Nothing happens there. This is what we want to change. Every single tile of the map is ment to have a use. However, in order to bring players together, we need hot spots. Our basic idea is that players meet at distinct hot spots to "roleplay" and make contact and then, set out to whatever destination they want to go to. No lonesome fishing in the middle of nowhere anymore, but gathering places and destinations that offer unique and interesting opportunities. In summary, no, the map won't become smaller, but more interesting and less arbitrary.

-An ongoing storyline is planned, however, this isn't easy to accomplish. We're planning to have a big story arch, but the details can only be realised by the players. And we're actually aiming at involving the players into the this process. But all this is distant future, so, let's talk about this in some weeks/months, ok?

-On the suggested charwipe, see above. The very big update will be quite a cut, but not that massive as a charwipe.

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Post by Colin Smalls » Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:20 pm

Elijah wrote:I've honestly wondered why more people haven't asked me in the past why I'm hardly IG these days. I thought it would be more pronounced since past Governors would have already been overthrown by now. That is mostly due to the fact that like Grokk said, there is a tremendous level of OOC sentiment that follows the role. For example, if someone is jailed IG, it is automaticly an OOC power trip on my part. Even if that person was jailed without my knowledge. If someone hears a rumor that I dislike someone from another settlement on msn, they automatically take precautions IG to stop some supposed "invasion". This OOC mongering presents me with little options IG to enhance RP, such as I tried with honestly making a game wide army that wasn't bent on world domination.

Elijah has been Governor of Troll's Bane for nearly five months, and I've yet to see any reason for any character IG to believe he's planning to overtake rural communities and incorporate them into Troll's Bane. You don't think he couldn't take Greenbriar, for example? It's inactive and doing so would add some nice RP elements to the game. However, I know that is a retarded solution to IG inactiveness because the POs down there would most surely take it as an OOC insult against them. I've thought about creating a mini quest with the GMs that would involve players taking over a lich in Hellbriar and defeating him. Again, those ideals are meaningless because of the lack of OOC support from neighboring people on the island, who would feel their is an ulterior motive. It would be a one sided Troll's Bane affair and severely lack that ingredient that would make it have some level of legacy.*

*Of course these aren't all the ideas I have, but are basic examples I pulled out my brain to prove my point.

Illarion can't be changed by one group, or one entity. In order for there to be any level of widescale and realistic RP in the game, you must have equal effort on all sides. Unfortunately, I just don't think that is possible in this time and day. I'm not, by all means, suggesting I won't try.
Solution, don't discuss Illarion on Msn.

Seriously, the game is better without it anyway.

Estralis, what would you say about the overwhelming number of tiny guilds or small towns who don't do anything except spread people out?

I'd say there should be about 3 or 4 main 'groups' of people ig. Not trying to be restrictive, but once a guild falls below say 'five' in active membership, I think it should be terminated.

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Post by Elijah » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:06 pm

Kamilar wrote:I won't comment on "OOC mongering" here.

I will say that the few times I've seen the governor in game, the only RP I've seen from him was the threat of being put in jail. Maybe that's fun for the part of the governor (though I sincerely doubt it, since he hardly ever logs in), but it's certainly no fun for the rest of us. What amounts to the threat of essentially receiving an indefinite character ban can hardly be classified as demanding "equal effort on all sides."

I personally think the most important thing to remember in RP is that we aren't logging in just to be entertained, but also to entertain others.
Saying that was the ONLY thing you seen is a severe overstatement and then discreetly discussing the same thing you said you were not going to do is entirely lame in itself. And if the large majority of the times we met ig you were presented with those options, then sorry, but it's not my job to log in and entertain you. If my character has a valid IG excuse to do something, he does it.

Your entire post was counter productive to my statement. The whole, "Entertain others" sentiment is complete and utter bees wax and you know it. For example, if Elijah were to randomly declare war on a settlement or entity tomorrow, and actually went to the offensive, I guarantee you that there would be a large section of the off topic boards dedicated to the spam of the event. My msn windows would be clicking, and two hours later I'd be rping my impeachment and taking advil for my headache. What's my other option in this situation?

I could humbly ask the players of the said group or entity if they are interested in an IG conflict. They would probably say yes. We could coordinate on the events, and even make some sort of conclusion. There is a few obstacles that arise in this situation again.

You must remember that people do not, for whatever reason, want to lose. Somehow tiled lands become like their grandmother's wedding ring and they hold onto it with the vigor of a medieval warrior. I swear, the level of hostility rises with certain people when their IG circumstances are threatened (I've been at fault a few times myself, though certainly not to the degree that I'm about to humorously describe). It gets so bad sometimes, I can picture the respective POs rising from their seats, smashing their head against their wall and yelling, "if someone would hand me a long sword I'd charge the Scottish fields and slay the English by the hundreds!!!11"

In all honesty, you can't separate that human factor. So, back to entertainment. If you are to somehow work out something of this nature, which is very shaky at best, someone has to lose. And don't give me that crap that "No.. there could a prearranged stalemate." Because 1) if there is, the leaders will know it and have to play the game as though they are reading a book that they already know the ending to and 2) it would be absolute shat RP for each group to stand down to a draw and simply go about their lives like nothing happened. The "confrontation" would technically never end, and the sentiment IG would always leave one group with a target. For example, Troll's Bane would most normally have the upper hand in this, because if you supported a group with aims to overthrow it's Government, there is a strong chance you won't be allowed in town for a while. Where's the entertainment factor in that? The main hub for RP is now disconnected from a large group of characters. And then it just boils down to people whining that someone is using OOC because you entered town to grab something with a mask on and we aren't supposed to know.

Or you were "randomly" pked despite the fact that your character was a known general in said enemy.

I'm using war as an example. There are plenty of other things that available but would meet the exact same roadblocks. And I know, because I've tried them all. If you don't think so, just read the archives of Elijah's reign.

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Post by Kamilar » Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:58 pm

@ Elijah

I'm sorry that you read my remarks as commentary on OOC mongering. I assure you, I'm keeping those opinions to myself. If you want to see the difference, you'll have to contact me off the forum for a continued discussion.

I stand squarely by my statement that part of the responsibility when you log in is to entertain others. If what you're doing is no fun for the other player, you shouldn't be doing it. It's really that simple to me.

Also, something to ponder while you're complaining that no one is willing to be the loser ....
How would you feel about being the loser? Your remarks seem to make the assumption that you must be the winner in these confrontations.

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Post by Fooser » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:00 am

Elijah wrote:For example, if Elijah were to randomly declare war on a settlement or entity tomorrow
do it

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Post by Ezor Edwickton » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:05 am

Out of character is everything that is not backed up by actions or thoughts of a character ingame. Decisions or actions in game should never be motivated by OOC influence,
This is not directed at anyone in particular, but I just thought some people need to be reminded about this rule. Don't take the game personally. :)

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Post by ltgmkay » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:08 am

Kamilar wrote: Also, something to ponder while you're complaining that no one is willing to be the loser ....
How would you feel about being the loser? Your remarks seem to make the assumption that you must be the winner in these confrontations.
Um, I think a fine reason for him to have the perspective of thinking he will always win is that the only true confrontation I can remember that I experienced involving trolls bane that resulted in a defeat for Bane was when the GM's took over.

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Post by bdgdkay » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:40 am

ltgmkay wrote:
Kamilar wrote: Also, something to ponder while you're complaining that no one is willing to be the loser ....
How would you feel about being the loser? Your remarks seem to make the assumption that you must be the winner in these confrontations.
Um, I think a fine reason for him to have the perspective of thinking he will always win is that the only true confrontation I can remember that I experienced involving trolls bane that resulted in a defeat for Bane was when the GM's took over.
There was also an incident where the town was taken over by the demon "Sinister" and we all had to flee to Goldburg.. Good times.

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Post by Elijah » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:46 am

I don't think it's possible, in the general sense, for Troll's Bane to "lose". Even with the prince, you eventually had someone come in after a while and restore the town. If an invading group, that was player run, were to come in and take Bane I doubt the occupation would last very long.

But as for me losing. I have no problem with my character losing. I'd get upset if it was a completely lame way that those events came about, but losing won't make me go crying to mommie.

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Post by Kamilar » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:51 am

ltgmkay wrote:
Kamilar wrote: Also, something to ponder while you're complaining that no one is willing to be the loser ....
How would you feel about being the loser? Your remarks seem to make the assumption that you must be the winner in these confrontations.
Um, I think a fine reason for him to have the perspective of thinking he will always win is that the only true confrontation I can remember that I experienced involving trolls bane that resulted in a defeat for Bane was when the GM's took over.
Not true. There have been successful coups in Bane. There was the time Siltaris was overthrown. Was that the same time that Silas took over and all the NPC merchants went on strike? So, at least one and possibly two in my lifetime.

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Post by Ezor Edwickton » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:44 am

Not sure if any of you guys were around back then, but Bailey Thunnigan along with Stephen Rothman took control over trolls bane through a hostile takeover back in the day (2005). Not sure how long they had control for since I wasn't around after that. I know there were many leadership changes after that.

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Post by Colin Smalls » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:54 pm

Elijah wrote:
Your entire post was counter productive to my statement. The whole, "Entertain others" sentiment is complete and utter bees wax and you know it. For example, if Elijah were to randomly declare war on a settlement or entity tomorrow, and actually went to the offensive, I guarantee you that there would be a large section of the off topic boards dedicated to the spam of the event. My msn windows would be clicking, and two hours later I'd be rping my impeachment and taking advil for my headache. What's my other option in this situation?
Blah blah blah. Just block those on msn who are being annoying, or leave msn altogether for the period where people start crying.

Just ignore the whiners dude. So long as you aren't pissing off the GMs themselves, who gives a shit? :P

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Post by Elijah » Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:49 pm

You're still missing the point of my post. If my actions IG cause people to get so upset that they start to scream in RL, throw temper tantrums and find it a necessity to spam my MSN box/off topic/forum inbox with irate messages, then that is by far not entertaining others. The level of maturity and personal affection that people take with Illarion prevents anyone from creating logical IG strife without a large majority of the community bitching and moaning.

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Post by Seori » Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:33 pm

Well said, Elijah. It's just not worth the effort to create suspense and tension when people respond that way.

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Post by Kamilar » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:54 pm

Starling makes a point of creating tension and strife every time I log her in. :D

I haven't had any complaints. :wink:

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Post by Elijah » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:30 am

Here's another example of the fact that people IG just don't want to have a global and fun conflict IG: over 5 hundred goblins (no joke) and there are still people IG who refuse to condone their actions and try to reason with them. They'd rather sit around town with their boring camp fire RP instead of creating a conflict IG that would both great and fun.

Bleh...

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Post by Velisai » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:53 am

Are you serious?

Edit: In case this isn't a joke, what is your definition of the word conflict? I am pretty sure our chars just had one and more is sure to follow soon. I'm seriously pissed at this sort of assumptions and your general attitude towards the rest of us. What makes you think you know enough about my char's motives to criticize my way of playing her? What makes you think nothing is going on behind your back? And what in the nine hells makes you think everyone condoning the gobbo's actions in unison is "great and fun"?

I've fought countless armies of monsters, so while that might be new for you, I've been there, done that, got the T-shirt with the greater demon print. By all means, lead your army to war, but don't expect everyone to agree with your char and complain about boring campfire RP at the same time.
Last edited by Velisai on Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Kamilar » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:34 am

I think everyone has the right to play the game the way they want, as long as they follow the basic rules of conduct and don't seek to spoil the fun of others. Some people like to chat with little or no emotes, some seek conflict, others like romance, some like to play with the game engine, a few want epic quest RP, others don't want anything to do with quests and some expect others to entertain them.

Who's to say which is the best way?

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Post by bdgdkay » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:50 am

Kamilar wrote:I think everyone has the right to play the game the way they want, as long as they follow the basic rules of conduct and don't seek to spoil the fun of others. Some people like to chat with little or no emotes, some seek conflict, others like romance, some like to play with the game engine, a few want epic quest RP, others don't want anything to do with quests and some expect others to entertain them.

Who's to say which is the best way?
Yeah, but it's nothing other than simple bad rp no matter how you look at it to sit at the camp fire chatting like nothings going on with hundreds of goblins running around in front of you.

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Post by Kamilar » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:53 am

There's bad RP ig every day. Is it necessary to comment on it in the forums?

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Post by Grokk » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:57 am

Yep.

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Post by Colin Smalls » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:09 am

Kamilar wrote:I think everyone has the right to play the game the way they want, as long as they follow the basic rules of conduct and don't seek to spoil the fun of others. Some people like to chat with little or no emotes, some seek conflict, others like romance, some like to play with the game engine, a few want epic quest RP, others don't want anything to do with quests and some expect others to entertain them.

Who's to say which is the best way?
personally, I don't see whats wrong with combining all seven! :D

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Post by Taiah » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:41 am

Colin Smalls wrote:
Kamilar wrote:I think everyone has the right to play the game the way they want, as long as they follow the basic rules of conduct and don't seek to spoil the fun of others. Some people like to chat with little or no emotes, some seek conflict, others like romance, some like to play with the game engine, a few want epic quest RP, others don't want anything to do with quests and some expect others to entertain them.

Who's to say which is the best way?
personally, I don't see whats wrong with combining all seven! :D
Sounds like a plan! :D

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Post by Kamilar » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:56 am

Taiah wrote:
Colin Smalls wrote:
Kamilar wrote:I think everyone has the right to play the game the way they want, as long as they follow the basic rules of conduct and don't seek to spoil the fun of others. Some people like to chat with little or no emotes, some seek conflict, others like romance, some like to play with the game engine, a few want epic quest RP, others don't want anything to do with quests and some expect others to entertain them.

Who's to say which is the best way?
personally, I don't see whats wrong with combining all seven! :D
Sounds like a plan! :D
I'm in! :D

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Post by Elijah » Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:07 am

Velisai wrote:Are you serious?

Edit: In case this isn't a joke, what is your definition of the word conflict? I am pretty sure our chars just had one and more is sure to follow soon. I'm seriously pissed at this sort of assumptions and your general attitude towards the rest of us. What makes you think you know enough about my char's motives to criticize my way of playing her? What makes you think nothing is going on behind your back? And what in the nine hells makes you think everyone condoning the gobbo's actions in unison is "great and fun"?

I've fought countless armies of monsters, so while that might be new for you, I've been there, done that, got the T-shirt with the greater demon print. By all means, lead your army to war, but don't expect everyone to agree with your char and complain about boring campfire RP at the same time.
My post wasn't directed at you. Velisai is that type of character and she is played to her role very well. Very neutral and doesn't seem to take sides. Her comments made for a decent RP, for a meeting discussing something of that nature should have proponents. But at the same time, I don't think I imagined the reactions to be as light as they were ( of other characters, not you).

Not saying the RP was bad, you can react the way you want to, because I can't tell you how to play your character. But I've helped create a situation IG that brings a lot of good elements opportunities to the game and just hope everyone wants to take part. :)

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Post by Velisai » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:23 pm

My apologies then, I didn't see anyone else take Vel's side in the argument. As for the whole quest, I'm sure there is opportunity for a lot of chars to get involved and they will use it in some way. As long as key chars stay active and keep the plot advancing, this shouldn't end like the Netheria quest.

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