Inconsistancy in death.

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Arvemor
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Inconsistancy in death.

Post by Arvemor »

Blergh, it always churns my gut when someone says they "died."
But they didn't...did they? Were they "ghosted?" I think I made a topic on this agessss ago, but everyone just said how they roleplay their temporary deaths. maybe they *did* die, I don't truly mind what the answer is. So long as everyone does the same thing.


Whats the deal? Gods are super-nice in our world and reincarnate everyone? The fact that people aren't quite so scared of actually dying in Illarion leads me to believe that it doesn't really happen often.

This came about by someone on the forums, talking about how they were killed (and I'm not saying you did anything wrong). Just wondering what the "correct" way to roleplay it is.

(Personally, I'd prefer people say they were badly hurt/fainted/maimed/or simply defeated. However, I understand how this contradicts ghosts and the blood spatter when you stumble and fall back and such.)

Death is no small matter. If you die, you're...you know...dead. Anyway, food for thought.
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Post by Flux »

There's been a million threads about this.

The way I perceive it:

You actually die, as you'd expect when someone sticks a sword into you a lot of times, and then, luckily, because this game has magic and real gods, by the grace of Cherga you're brought back to life.

However, just because you know your char can come back to life doesn't mean your character knows that. When a character is resurrected [s]he should be damned happy about it, considering Cherga could just be like "Yeah you've died too many times now, I'm not bothering reviving you anymore". Anyone talking about how they died on a passing aside like it was barely of any significance is just rping badly. Just because you as a PLAYER aren't really affected by it after an hour if you don't care about skills and you lost nothing, doesn't mean your character didn't just DIE.
Illal
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Post by Illal »

I heard my sister talk a lot about this game when she played, and ghosting was one of the things that was brought up.

Having recently witnessed my first IG ghosting (actually the one being referenced above) I started thinking about what she said.

I agree with the resurrection thing, where "BY THE GRACE OF THE MISTRESS OF DEATH THOU HAST RETURNED. Be GRATEFUL puny mortal."

One of the things she heard/liked/though about/? was being swept away to an underworld and having to find your way back out. I liked this idea because another game I play implemented it and we talked about it some (and by talked, I mean made maps using snapshots of IG graphics and photoshop).

Considering that you have to make a trip to a cross anyway, I think that'd be pretty neat, though I understand that most Illarionites wouldn't like it since it lacks RP elements.

Although, talking to ghosts and escaping from Cherga's realm would be pretty awesome.

Anyway, my character took it as "Oh CRAP that woman just got BEAT TO DEATH." :shock: *four minutes later* "Ohai there lady. How was yur trip?"
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Arvemor
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Post by Arvemor »

Exactly. Erm...poll?
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Kevin Lightdot
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Post by Kevin Lightdot »

I think somewhere long ago in a galaxy far away an underworld thing was already suggested once no?
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Estralis Seborian
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

Arvemor wrote:Exactly. Erm...poll?
Nope. Flux description is the official one. See:

http://illarion.org/community/wiki/index.php/Death

Death will change (slightly) with the very big update, making everything a bit more clear and obvious. And also, more convenient. Stay tuned!
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Post by Damien »

In any way, treating an ingame death as actual death makes the resulting RP become kinda silly because many people tend to have lost their dig-into-rp-situation-feeling. People tend to think of their characters as themselves, not act their characters as if they would be different beings than the player behind them.
In short, the fact that a character got killed and the (good) fact that the player of that character does not get angry at the other player sadly often leads down to the point that the character is not mad at the character who actually killed him.
Concerning RP, that totally takes the salt out off the soup. For what we perceive as "good RP" is storytelling and acting in one.
RP, after all, is a story, and the characters are fictive persons in a story. Each story is different, has to be, but a story or a character lacking depth and style becomes a boring or even silly story, and when the story in a book becomes shallow or silly, you tend to close that book and toss it aside.
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Seori
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Post by Seori »

People tend to think of their characters as themselves, not act their characters as if they would be different beings than the player behind them.
Yes, I have to agree. For players to identify with their characters might be a sign of highly immersive roleplaying due to the deep immersion of the player into the fantasy world. This may be a positive thing as it can lead to vibrant, truly lived characters. The best actors I hear often immerse themselves so deeply into their roles that sometimes, even days after all the movie scenes have been taken, the actors still talk and behave as if the movie was still going on.
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Post by Damien »

True, but actors ACT, while many players tend to take an ingame insult against their character very personal out of the game. Two actors can shoot each another in a movie, while outside the movie they don't care about what happens inside.
Many of the players who lack that certain ability to divide these two things, also tend to see even RP as a winning / loosing style game.
And there we have the point where the stories become flat, repititive, a manga-ish hero contest, and children's battles for sandbox domination have replaced the telling of tales we usually strived for.

Have a good excanmple : http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=34277
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Dyluck
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Post by Dyluck »

Personally, I have always preferred the "defeated/injured/knocked out" explanation. The thing about death and resurrection from the character's point of view, is that it happens WAY too often for both a character himself and the number of people in the world overall. At some point, the characters should logically notice that the revival rate around him is such a unbelievably high rate that this so called death starts to lose significance to him. Being "defeated" on the other hand, is not necessarily always specifically severe injuries, so it can happen a lot of times and with varying degrees, without being too strange. It also just sounds bad when multiple characters are in a conversation in which they all refer to incidents where they "died".
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Juliana D'cheyne
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Post by Juliana D'cheyne »

I actually prefer "seriously hurt" myself because the "I was killed" even if brought back multiple times by the gods just seems a little extreme when there is more then one time it has happened. However, the game engine is not condusive to that explanation or "ghosts" wouldn't look like "ghosts" and a char should be able to emote pain etc. as a "ghost" in that case. As a work-around I basically say "sent to the cross" (and know it is not an actual cross but haven't found another word as descriptive). There have also been multiple threads if you can "see" a ghost or not and how to act when/if you do see one.
Last edited by Juliana D'cheyne on Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kevin Lightdot
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Post by Kevin Lightdot »

Orcs never die, they just get really bad hangovers.
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Lrmy
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Post by Lrmy »

Damien wrote:True, but actors ACT, while many players tend to take an ingame insult against their character very personal out of the game. Two actors can shoot each another in a movie, while outside the movie they don't care about what happens inside.
But the actors don't lose hours of work when they die. The only way to stop that is by getting rid of skills. I do agree that it's absurd to take anything in game personally.
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Post by Flux »

Dyluck wrote:At some point, the characters should logically notice that the revival rate around him is such a unbelievably high rate that this so called death starts to lose significance to him.
What about the massive amount of pain that accompanies being killed?
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Post by Elijah »

I'm sure that the enlistment rate for armies throughout the world would triple if someone said "Yeah.. you can get shot nine times.. might hurt quite a bit.. but there is generally a 90% chance you'll be revived with little to no effects." Unbearable pain suddenly becomes bearable if you know there are greener pastures beyond it.
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Post by Lrmy »

Elijah wrote:I'm sure that the enlistment rate for armies throughout the world would triple if someone said "Yeah.. you can get shot nine times.. might hurt quite a bit.. but there is generally a 90% chance you'll be revived with little to no effects." Unbearable pain suddenly becomes bearable if you know there are greener pastures beyond it.
I think we can all agree responsible players will allow their characters to have some fear of death every time it is near. Of course everything won't make sense in a game based on magic and roleplaying so there are things like the cross/resurrection that we need to accept in order for the game to work.
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Post by Illal »

It sounds like everyone is dying all over the place in this game. :?


I heard that you loose skill points when you die (or something, wasn't really listening at the time) and that it's a shitty thing to have happen to your characters and you really should be cautious.

Is that just not true? Or do people just not give a shit?
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Dyluck
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Post by Dyluck »

Avoiding extreme paid can be a good reason for not wanting to die, but knowing that you will never (or extremely unlikely) be able to come back to continue living is equally important. I think both are conditions that need to be fufilled in order to satisfy the qualities of "death" that make it so significant.
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Post by Nitram »

So we should add a chance of 50% that your character is permanently banned when getting ghosted. :D
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Post by Grokk »

Yes.
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pharse
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Post by pharse »

Juliana D'cheyne wrote:As a work-around I basically say "sent to the cross" (and know it is not an actual cross but haven't found another word as descriptive)
I think it is "column of resurrection".
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Juliana D'cheyne
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Post by Juliana D'cheyne »

Lrmy wrote:I think we can all agree responsible players will allow their characters to have some fear of death every time it is near.
To expand on this, I don't think any older char that has RP'd is not afraid of death i.e. I have not seen one yet except for those PO's ready to perma that char anyway. What I have seen however is the misunderstanding of the PO that even though a fantasy game, there is consequences of your char's actions. That is, if you make a shady, surly char that ignores demons, taunts other chars etc... expect to get the results of those actions eventually.



@pharse: a good phrase, possibly change "go to the cross" ig to "go to the column of resurrection"?
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Post by pharse »

Juliana D'cheyne wrote:@pharse: a good phrase, possibly change "go to the cross" ig to "go to the column of resurrection"?
I think on Noobia the Lizard explains it already with "column". Where does it say "cross"? Can't think of anything at the moment.
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Juliana D'cheyne
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Post by Juliana D'cheyne »

pharse wrote:
Juliana D'cheyne wrote:@pharse: a good phrase, possibly change "go to the cross" ig to "go to the column of resurrection"?
I think on Noobia the Lizard explains it already with "column". Where does it say "cross"? Can't think of anything at the moment.
When ghosted ig it says "go to the Cross" with directions of the nearest ( though I don't have a spare char I want to test that with at the moment )

nm, found a log:
(xxxxxxxxxx)Someone (xxxxxxxxxx): Walk to the YELLOW CROSS to be resurrected!
Juliana D'Cheyne: Go SOUTH to be revived.
(xxxxxxxxxx)'Foe': Good job
Juliana D'Cheyne: Go SOUTH to be revived.
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pharse
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Post by pharse »

oh okay, didn't know that. Wasn't ghosted in a long time 8)

But that will be gone with the VBU, as the resurrection is handled in another way.
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Olaf Tingvatn
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Post by Olaf Tingvatn »

SINCE i did NAWT bother to read all the text of awl da answurs, you could allways just say you were severly wounded or some fecies...



For orcs "meh hab meh fais smashed..'ard!"

For oomins/juuminns "i was badly beaten/wounded by *insert name of monster* and came to at a strange glowing cross"

For Effies/longears "i was in a struggle for my dear life, the heavens beckoned me...i yearned to answer its call. But by the grace of *insert name of characters preffered deity* my mortal body was wringed from the hands of death and turmoil. how i survived such a horrid experience is only known to *insert name of characters prefered deity* and i shall be forever gratefull of his/her/its intervention..it was not my day to die.

Stunty/Stumpy "bah! got me arse kicked by some wee *insert name of monster, add scottis accent* thank the stonegod ah wuss seved!

Lissurds/greenskinn/water lover "by the gracssse of the goddesssssss! Clean water wasss bessstowed on me in my time of need!

and so on and so forth...
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Quinasa
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Post by Quinasa »

pharse wrote:oh okay, didn't know that. Wasn't ghosted in a long time 8)

But that will be gone with the VBU, as the resurrection is handled in another way.
Also, before the new client was released in 2005 the resurrection pillar WAS a yellow cross. :]
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H.Banestone
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Post by H.Banestone »

How does the mechanic of death influence judicial system of ingame governments?
Trials for murder and assassination must be very easy, because the victim comes back to life and can identify the "killer" or "clouder".
Do characters lose memory of their death or have a mental impact clouding the victim's mind, or are all killers indeed instantly idenitified from the testimony and apprehended? How does this impact inter-guild wars?
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Post by Rhombus »

H.Banestone wrote:How does the mechanic of death influence judicial system of ingame governments?
Trials for murder and assassination must be very easy, because the victim comes back to life and can identify the "killer" or "clouder".
Do characters lose memory of their death or have a mental impact clouding the victim's mind, or are all killers indeed instantly idenitified from the testimony and apprehended? How does this impact inter-guild wars?
For most people: #me is wearing a disguise.
Otherwise, "murders" aren't taken very seriously in game, at least not in Bane. You could ghost someone and have virtually nothing done to you because ghosting is a pretty normal thing.
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Lrmy
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Post by Lrmy »

How does the mechanic of death influence judicial system of ingame governments?
Trials for murder and assassination must be very easy, because the victim comes back to life and can identify the "killer" or "clouder".
When there is a trial held the player of the character in question often is asked if he would accept a permanent death. If not, they are generally subjected to a lengthy time in jail.
Do characters lose memory of their death or have a mental impact clouding the victim's mind, or are all killers indeed instantly identified from the testimony and apprehended? How does this impact inter-guild wars?
Unless you want the death to be more traumatic to your character you can allow them to remember the death. As far as guild fights go... I know of some somewhat recent afflictions some characters had. Permanent deaths are also sometime ways of settling those things.
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