The problem of Vanima

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Post by Rafael » Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:10 am

The problem of Vanima

I must clarify first though this is finally motivated by the last incidents on Vanima, this is something that has been carried for a long time. For more than perhaps 4 months, I have received numeros complains of all types of stuff that happens in Vanima. I'm not around now, so I didn't take a part in the last attacks, my opinion is limited in that matter. And finally, I have to clarify that I'm not necesarily in one side of this (if there are sides). I'm friends with both the players of the pos of Vanima and I'm also friends with several players that have a conflict with some players of Vanima.

I write this in order to, perhaps, find a solution and make the rp of some players more interesting before some pos finally quit playing this game (myself included). The problem is this: in the several past months, the enjoyability of playing in Vanima for several players had been reduced. This had been caused, mostly by indicents that forced an overdramatic reaction in Vanima, making the cheerful atmosphere of the first days evaporate, starting a cicle at least of bad mood in several players. This incidents can be, the both demon quests, the orcs attacks, the thrieves attacks, some arson incidents, etc. As an elven guard PO I can say personally that a normal day in Vanima has, at least, some suicidal girls eating mushrooms, some guys chopping eldan oaks next to the great hall, skeletons or some strange things roaming around, etc.

That said, my opinion in this matter is first, that Vanima has called more the attention, perhaps by the large activity, to events than other communities. There has been a breach between some old players of the game (as I fondly call the powerrgamers) and this new community of players of Vanima (fondly called by me as the wimps). To certain point, outsiders have abused this weakness of Vanima, frocing more incidents than what we can easily handle. However, a large fault also falls in the players of Vanima, that sink far too easily ina gloomy mood, avoiding any kind of activities to integrate to the comunity, closing they rps and not willing to find rped solutions to many of the issues at hand.

Vanima is not composed by players who want to powergame their skills to became great warriors (not all, at least), is composed by players who want to enjoy just talking. Vanima can't also try to behave as if it were a real elven comunity, the circunstances of the number of players, the natural weakness of the elves, don't allow such rp. Is that way, that the lack of adaptation of the leaders, and the whole community as well as the circuntances at hand, that became, in my eyes, one of the causes of this "drama" as we call it, that is present in almost all talks that happen inside Vanima.

I don't see how easily a solution can come to this matter, to make the pos regain the pprevius interest they had in the community, however, in one side I do think that GMs should aim less "fight involved quest" and do rather "community skills" related quest. A general change in the attitude of the players of Vanima community, aimed to try less drmatical issues, and less violent reactions to the problems, should be encuraged, also a more active commitment to the different activities of this society. And finally, a more comprehensive look from the old players should be encouraged too: if you want Vanima to became strong to be able to interact properly as a guild, with skilled warriors and a steady governmet, give it time. I'm not saying we have to be treated better because we don't want to interact with other communities, just try to arrange first this kind of matters ooc with the leaders (as leader of the guard I'm would even encourage a war, as long as all the players can have fun and is inside OOC terms) than just lead force rps in chars that perhaps had too much crap in their real lives and just want to chat with friends.

Well, that is my 2 cents, please rant as much as you want, but try to mantain a respect tone with this. We had enough flme wars already.

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Post by Athian » Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:58 am

So as far as I can see, what your saying is that the players want Vanima to be an RP only isle where the rest of the on goings in the game should have no effect on them unless they specifically sanction it. Also aggressive players should not set foot on Vanima because no one on Vanima wants to take the time to learn to defend themselves.

I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous. I think the post in the Vanima forum by Ace pretty much summed up the fact that Vanima has plenty of options when it comes to dealing with aggressive RP. None of these options are taken (might i add that it is not only the role of a singular 'leader' to do this for you, thats entirely unreasonable) and instead the players of Vanima throw hissy fits every time something happens that even implies the use of the fighting system. I'm not sure that is the best way to represent that particular group of players.

So according to this Vanima wants every IG capacity that every other town has, but they don't want to work to establish themselves as such. Give Vanima time? Vanima has been around just as long as any other place, and every other governing body has been changing hands frequently, to new characters and new players, thus it can't be said that they are 'older' in any respect. If Vanima is going to 'catch up' it should have to do so just like every other town,guild and organization does; under fire. The recent attitude of Vanima really just sounds like a bunch of selfish requests from a bunch of selfish people who should not have left newbie isle. I know not everyone who plays a Vanima character thinks or acts this way but they have been the ones complaining and thus have become the representatives of the "Vanima mindset"

Now moving past that.

The solution is; for this 'group' of players on Vanima that seems to believe that they are under some sort of conspiracy attack by older players and GM's to ruin there own personal fun in there own personal utopia to learn to be as flexible as they claim all these other groups of players are not. Instead of running away every time something happens and threatening to leave the game at every inconvenience to you, Vanima players, like every other player in all of Gobiath (skilled or not) have to learn to deal with the games ebb and flow. You may be the largest collection of pacifist's, but you certainly aren't the only ones. Why should Vanima receive protection from all aggression when all the other craftsmen, farmers, and non-fighters in the game have to actually "live" life on Gobiath good or bad?

I may be venting a bit of annoyance rage right now but seriously, suck it up and stop asking for special treatment for Vanima. Just play with the same trials and tribulations that everyone else is dealing with and stop coming off as spoiled brats (I don't believe any of our really are, but its becoming VERY hard not to see it that way).


p.s.

I will eventually respond with actual logic, be wary :wink:
Last edited by Athian on Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Elijah » Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:05 am

I've offered two IG ways to resolve this.

One being as simple as Elijah paying the money the bandits demand, with no benefit for Troll's Bane. And the other, Vanima becoming a defensive vassal of Troll's Bane, with no obligation or under sovereign rule, simply we help to build up your defense in return for a safe town.

Of course, I can see the last one being rejected. But the first? Why? I'll give you the reason the elder gave me. "It's not correct elven rp to succumb to bandit's threats.. and by paying them I am.." So you decided to let it go this far, that two players have pretty much quit the game and the rest probably don't even want to log in?

The entire situation is no one's fault but your own.

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Post by Athian » Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:23 am

Elijah wrote:I've offered two IG ways to resolve this.

One being as simple as Elijah paying the money the bandits demand, with no benefit for Troll's Bane. And the other, Vanima becoming a defensive vassal of Troll's Bane, with no obligation or under sovereign rule, simply we help to build up your defense in return for a safe town.

Of course, I can see the last one being rejected. But the first? Why? I'll give you the reason the elder gave me. "It's not correct elven rp to succumb to bandit's threats.. and by paying them I am.." So you decided to let it go this far, that two players have pretty much quit the game and the rest probably don't even want to log in?

The entire situation is no one's fault but your own.
@ Elijah

There are even more resolutions then that. None of which have even been decently explored. With proper player to player cooperation Vanima could certainly find a solution without needing to 'compromise' themselves to Trolls bane or any other city.

It was simply assumed by this group of Vanima players in question, that the bandits and the GM's (during quests, which in actuality had very little pvp action to them) and everyone else hostile toward Vanima are completely unreasonable people who would be pointless to make arrangements with, and so they never tried.

The people in Trollsbane who caught the bandit for instance were able to do so with arrangement. I guarantee if that if every player on the bandits side had showed up to fight, they'd have obliterated a Trollsbane force in less then a minute if it came down to a system fight, but it didn't. Instead the Trolls bane players got to have a well RP'd win, no system involved. in this instant it proves beyond a doubt that the 'older' players are not only capable of being negotiated with but willing to compromise and allow everyone to have a good time. Why Vanima seems to feel they are unable to do the same is beyond me.

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Post by Quinasa » Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:41 am

It isn't the whole of Vanima that feels that way, guys. Some of us are role playing the situation as best we can (as hard as it is with some people not participating and just complaining all the time) because we think that these issues should be solved in a role play manner and not OOC. Taking it to OOC just takes all the fun right out of it. It voids the actual point of ROLE PLAY.

The way I see it, Shandariel leaving her post as Elder is a good thing. There are other people that can do a good job, maybe even a better job (no offense against the PO of Shan, you know I <3 you!) of helping to run the elven community. Shandariel leaving her post, while maybe not the only solution to some of Vanima's problems is certainly going to help and give others an opportunity to make a difference.

My char doesn't like the LBA , but as a player I see the benefit of having such a group in game and I actually enjoy the challenge. It forces us to think outside of the box, to actually role play and not just perform already 'OOC'ly decided upon actions.

It's about FUN, guys.

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Post by Grokk » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:44 am

Re: The problem of Vanima

I truly hope that a PO with the sensibilities of Quinasa plays the next character to be Elder.

But I really see no argument here. The POs are quitting because roleplay happened. Roleplay that prevented them enjoying quiet-love-peace-flower time with their friends. Oh well.

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Post by The great one » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:03 am

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... php?t=1634

Seem familiar? 9 years on and nothing has changed.

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Post by Grim_banned » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:23 am

Not much left to say that hasn't been said already, but I'll give you some personal insight.

I myself play one of these bandits, a low skill one though because I have no time to powergame him, as I did with my other chars, I might add.
So let me put it this way.. this is a roleplaying game, which means we can choose whatever role our imagination lets us to play. The only difference between a bard, a bandit, or a knight, in this game, is the "maturity" of the player behind them, but the rest.. all can do the same things, all can influence the Illarion world in the same manner.. while a bandit uses guerilla tactics to go after targets and the knight trains as hard as he can to be the best of the best, the bard can bring the same amount of change in the world without having to engine battle once.
So you can not complain that you are oppressed by evil players and GMs, when there is no sign of action OOC or IC against those things. I don't know if you have any idea how many GMs are trying to actually avoid involving Vanima into quests, because the OOC actions of a few that made this tiny comunity forever wear the sticker of "whiners". Do you really want this? Is this the type of game you wish to play? A game where you log in, chat about what you did during the day, then log off? You can use msn for that!
Illarion is so much more than that.. Illarion is supposed to be a living world where every single character has a word to say, where every single character has the potential to shape it and change it. If you exclude yourself from this world then, why do you play?

Also, there is one thing you all seem to forget. When you decide to instead of acting IC, to fill the forum with flames, you not solving anything. Even worse! You ruin the fun for everyone else.. Illarion is supposed to be a magical world, where you can immerse yourself and play your role, but when you start reading the high amount of bullshit that floods the forums, that magic is gone. You have no idea how many excellent quests and elaborate plots were ruined this way! I mean, take Flux's demon quest as hard example. A lot of people were SO dissapointed when the demons suddenly dissapeared because of a certain group of people that decided that they are better than everyone else. Flux worked months for the detailes of that quests.. he did loads of maps, he wrote dozens of IG books and a plot scenario that made many novels that you find in the library, look like coloring books. Thats how you thank him? By ruining not only his motivation and HARD work, but for all the others dozens of players that actually bothered to take part of the quest instead of OOCly bitching about it?

Let me tell you something.. when I first came into this game, I was so captivated by it that I could of barely let go of the keyboard. I could feel that I was part of a living, changing world, a world where danger lurks at every corner.. UNTIL I started reading the forums and saw one big bitching topic about the Temple. I can tell you, that almost made me quit instantly.. So I ask you again, dear people... how do you think your OOC flaming affects the comunity? Not in a good way, I can give you that.

And returning to the bandits matter.. I have been part of almost every attack with my weak char. Who cares if I get clouded in the process as long the roleplay is good? Something to laugh about with the other POs later. Par example, just yesterday, a strong char was attacked, but unfortunetly we compleatly underestimated him, one of the weak members ending up visiting the cross.. Who cares? It was fun... had some excitement and some nice roleplay out of it.
And please don't make me say how many different chances the "victims" are given, IC and OOC, so don't come complaining when not one single PM was sent to the bandits to ask for some OOC resolve to the problem, like Bane did (props to Elijah for being a good leader both IC and OOC) or when IC, a certain someone, even when surrounded, prefferes to treat the bandits with arrogance and with an insultive tone, instead of trying to negotiate, as any man or woman that fears for his life and the life of his friends, would do.

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Post by Kugar » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:15 am

Well said Grim. Well bloody said.

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Post by Skaalib Drurr » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:15 am

This is beyond ridiculous. You cannot force people to participate in your rp. Like it or not it is impossible. So why should you care so much? Just leave it out, there are plenty of other people who do want to rp with you. Why not do so with them?
My pretty unqualified tuppence worth.

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Post by Grim_banned » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:35 am

Skaalib Drurr wrote:This is beyond ridiculous. You cannot force people to participate in your rp. Like it or not it is impossible. So why should you care so much? Just leave it out, there are plenty of other people who do want to rp with you. Why not do so with them?
My pretty unqualified tuppence worth.
You must be friggin kidding me.. That's exactly the player mentality that ruins the game fun for everyone else, especially for the GMs that work their ass off to give players awesome RP experiences.

Its simple. You either play the game or not? I don't see anywhere on the character window a parameter where you can choose the level of difficulty of the game.
No one is forcing anything on you, no one is comming to your house, enters your room, puts a knife at your neck ans says "DO THIS OR I CUT YOU". No.. you are not forced to do anything, you are presented with a situation to which your char has to react in a way or another. Isn't that the definition of a RP game? A character being part of a living world and all that? If you do not understand this simple aspect, then a roleplaying game is not for you, and I say this in a most friendly manner, not as an insult.

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Post by Skaalib Drurr » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:52 am

All I'm saying is that if you do all that, and the 'victim' logs or goes on the board and complains, is that fun for you?
I doubt it is. So why then should two players fun be ruined? Why not do the same with someone who is up for it? And there seems to be enough of them.

You can take the high ground all you want but the fact is that your actions are causing people to leave the game, and you seem not to care, because they are not doing it 'right'. It's no real inconvenience to you to let them do it 'wrong' (you claim not to care about skills and items) so why not just let them?

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Post by Grim_banned » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:09 am

Skaalib Drurr wrote:All I'm saying is that if you do all that, and the 'victim' logs or goes on the board and complains, is that fun for you?
You clearly think of us to be a bunch of losers that have nothing better to do than kill your pixel char because its cool. Well, I have news for you, and excuse me for taking the tone up a notch, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Did you read anything that I write, or you just like to continue on your idea? Let me repeate myself: People with an attitude like that, who take IC things into OOC and do nothing but complain, should NOT play this game!
You clearly forget a simple aspect: Good players leave the game because of bad ones, those that ruin the fun for everyone with their senseless OOC flaming and bitching.
I doubt it is. So why then should two players fun be ruined? Why not do the same with someone who is up for it? And there seems to be enough of them.
Again about selective roleplay and little groups? Should I remind you AGAIN, that this is a RP game, and not a random, chat program where you can choose who to chat with or not?
You can take the high ground all you want but the fact is that your actions are causing people to leave the game, and you seem not to care, because they are not doing it 'right'.
For this, I won't even bother to answer since clearly you don't even bother to think this through. Instead, I'll just quote the player of another bandit that posted with the Ace account on Vanima board:
I’m not seeing how the actions of the bandits are making anyone leave. Playing Illarion is playing a game with many people; as such things are not always going to go in the favor of one person. Sometimes you die, that’s a factor that’s always been present in the game, if you quit because you die or were pk’d then maybe you should not have been playing in the first place.

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Post by Shandariel el Lysanthrai » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:41 am

Illarion is a true roleplaying game. Your character is not your avatar in another world and his gain and loss is not yours. Seperate yourself from your character and let him have flaws and commit mistakes. Players commit mistakes once in a while, too. Be lenient towards the mistakes of other players, nobody is perfect, not even you. If you cannot stand the behaviour of another player, leave him alone and contact a gamemaster.Have faith in the fact that no one wants to harm your fun on purpose, likewise, you must not want to spoil anyone's fun. Consider whether everything you do in game is also fun for other players or just for you alone.
I'll give you the reason the elder gave me. "It's not correct elven rp to succumb to bandit's threats.. and by paying them I am.."
Please do not put words into my mouth which I haven't spoken. The highlighted part was made up by you. Shandariel was simply not ready to give in to bandits threats and make Vanima being forced and controlled by bandits once the settlement starts giving in and paying the money. And that was not due of her personal reason, but since she would not sell away Vanima. She stands close to her and the elven principles. And those means that a elven settlement which gives in and pays money to the bandits give up part of their freedome. But noone really bothers to see this from the elven viewpoint and the one of an Elder. And please do not give me the fault for the players leaving. They themselfs didn't want to pay the money with their chars. They leave cause they can't have peacefull RP without someone comming by and sending you to the cross with few RP and few chances to avoid it other then giving up. They leave cause someone doesn't reconsider his actions before he commit them and cause he doesn't care for the players whose chars he bullies. It should not be the victims part to do the PM and OOC regulations. It is in the attackers responsibility, since he is the one who takes a drastic influence on someone others ingame experience.
And please stop buggering me OOC again and again, trying to influence my characters desicion and behaviour and offering me OOC solutions. Please do that IC
Last edited by Shandariel el Lysanthrai on Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by martin » Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:48 am

What if you spoil MY fun right now?
Why is it that always the same players are troublemakers? (Maybe I can find a rule for that...)

Martin

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Post by Shandariel el Lysanthrai » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:03 am

--censored by myself to avoid further mud fights. I do apologize for this derailment--
It had not been me who started this thread, and I am not the only one unhappy with it. The others ones who aren't, rarely have ever wrote such postings in the game.

Also, you should ask yourself why it are usually the same players of evil or criminal chars who causes such discussions and arguements to araise due of their ingame actions.
Or why the same players are involved with such ingame actions which causes this sort of discussions.

This is a two sided coin.
Last edited by Shandariel el Lysanthrai on Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Flux » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:08 am

Shandariel el Lysanthrai wrote:It is already enough that you make it influence your staff work when it comes down to anything that has to do with me.
That is really hugely ungrateful. Martin works his arse off for this game.

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Post by Grokk » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:14 am

Shandariel el Lysanthrai wrote:And please stop buggering me OOC again and again, trying to influence my characters desicion and behaviour and offering me OOC solutions. Please do that IC
I call troll.

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Post by Shandariel el Lysanthrai » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:15 am

I know. I didn't say he doesnt. He is doing a great job for this game and he has implented a hell of amazing stuff. I don't deny that and I respect him and thank him for this hard work. Illarion couldn't exist without him.

But I also do know that we both do have our quarrels with each other. Something like that happens. Peoples don't always get along well with each other. That is the result of different personalitys, some simply doesn't mix well. And i do got often enough the feeling in the past that he simply ignores me when it comes down to any technical matters or questions. But this quarrels shouldn't influence our desicions and it shoulnd't lead to mud fights in the public between each other.

But that shouldn't be discussed here...so maybe a Mod can delete my and his remarks? I apologize to Martin to have it mentioned in the public and to have responded in a way which cause this to escalate.
Last edited by Shandariel el Lysanthrai on Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Kugar » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:16 am

*deleted*
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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:22 am

If you refuse to settle matters ingame with the people who bother you (you could), refuse the help of other player characters (which you could accept) to do if for you and refuse to even pursue avenues to help your situation (you could get help), why on eart are you complaining and why should I feel any sympathy?

I don't like Illarion losing players, any players, which of course sucks. However, in this case it's you guys who in my view are completely unreasonable and who are the source of your own troubles.

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Post by Kugar » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:25 am

Ignore my last statement btw, I don't really know anything about the matter so I will stay out of it! :P

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Post by Grim_banned » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:34 am

How can I put this, mister Patric, without being seen as a rude ass that you make me be in these situations...
Have you ever taken a bloody, god damn minute, and stop for a bit to think, how does your endless bitching influences this comunity? You have always been the same! Didnt change one bit, since 4 years I have been playing this game! It was always YOU starting endless flames and bitches on the forum, taking the fun out of everyone because your pixel elfess/dwarf/mage does't get what she wants.

Well, I have news for you, 'buddy', you are NOT a gorgeous elfess, not a smart mage! You do not live in Illarion or any other fantasy game, more than your own imagination. You want to quote rules at me? Allow me to quote the same rule then:
Illarion is a true roleplaying game. Your character is not your avatar in another world and his gain and loss is not yours. Seperate yourself from your character and let him have flaws and commit mistakes. Players commit mistakes once in a while, too. Be lenient towards the mistakes of other players, nobody is perfect, not even you. If you cannot stand the behaviour of another player, leave him alone and contact a gamemaster.Have faith in the fact that no one wants to harm your fun on purpose, likewise, you must not want to spoil anyone's fun. Consider whether everything you do in game is also fun for other players or just for you alone.
How about you start telling about how many advantages your chars have gotten during these years just because you complain the ear off the devs and GMs? Why don't you start telling how many players you have made quit or how many quests you have ruined?
Please stop seeing yourself as above others, deserving special treatment, because I can think of nothing from you, that deserves such a thing! Can't you really see how people hate playing with your chars or how GMs avoid places you go to with their quests just to prevent you from opening your mouth?

You complain that "evil" players ruin your fun? Then what are you doing playing this game? What are you doing here? You're not even playing! What is your use here, to piss off everyone? You have done the same thing for the past years, stop it already! It is getting old.

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Post by Blay » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:37 am

Everything has been said in the Vanima subforum already. Another topic for this is not needed.
If you want to complain more, use !gm, flame via PM, but do not spam the board.

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