Good thing it's unsigned.Hadrian_Abela wrote: And Sigma(IQ) would become negative.
Is Illarion doomed to being another hack and slash?
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We're derailing this gentleman's thread, we'd better stop.-
rakust dorenstkzul
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Sirith-Rym
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So then let's change the attitude.Damien wrote:As long as that attitude in the community does not change, illarion will always run low on quests and questers.
The reason people complain so much is because their whining works. Their ridiculous complaints are actually listened to by the higher-ups, and acted upon. This game caters to all the wrong crowds, and won't take action against them for fear of losing some of its already small playerbase. These crowds know this, and exploit the situation as they please.
In every other game I have played, GMs are the law. For a GM to be disciplined, they must have fucked up pretty bad. Here, they seem to be treated as just another player who just happens to have a few more tools. The word of a GM should be final, not subject to the beliefs of a player who has been around for so many years that their opinion suddenly becomes 'correct'. I assume that it is no easy task to become a GM, and that there is quite a strict screening process involved. If someone becomes a GM, it is because they are capable of filling the position. When a GM runs a quest, just let them run it. That is their job. When people complain, ignore them or, if necessary, punish them. If they quit playing, so be it, the game is most likely better off without them.
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Grim_banned
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Anon of D'Athen
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I like this community.
When they want something they cry out in masses. When they need to give something back like SIMPLE NPCS written in a language you could teach a monkey, they all scatter.
Now this interesting statement I made up there will either be ignored, or will kill the thread. Hooray.
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I remember the "Pig disease" and the "Plague" quests which weren't all hacky-slash. The 'minor' quests usually aren't either - I like those the most - less heros.
When they want something they cry out in masses. When they need to give something back like SIMPLE NPCS written in a language you could teach a monkey, they all scatter.
Now this interesting statement I made up there will either be ignored, or will kill the thread. Hooray.
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I remember the "Pig disease" and the "Plague" quests which weren't all hacky-slash. The 'minor' quests usually aren't either - I like those the most - less heros.
Last edited by Llama on Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Juliana D'cheyne
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CJK
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Hadrian_Abela wrote:
I remember the "Pig disease" and the "Plague" quests which weren't all hacky-slash. The 'minor' quests usually aren't either - I like those the most - less heros.
The problem with the pig disease is that it just went on and on and on for way too long for a quest that directly affected major trades.
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Friedwulfa
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By the way.. maybe you forgot the Competitions of Irmorom. The biggest Part isnt for fighters!
Ok, its not a official Quest, but its in the hand of the player, who attaches blame to change this in his possibilities.
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Nebenbei bemerkt.. ihr vergesst die Irmoromschen Spiele. Der grösste Teil davon ist nicht für Kämpfer!
Gut. es ist keine offizielle Quest, aber es ist auch in der Hand der Spieler die sich über sowas beschweren, es nach ihren Möglichkeiten zu ändern.
Ok, its not a official Quest, but its in the hand of the player, who attaches blame to change this in his possibilities.
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Nebenbei bemerkt.. ihr vergesst die Irmoromschen Spiele. Der grösste Teil davon ist nicht für Kämpfer!
Gut. es ist keine offizielle Quest, aber es ist auch in der Hand der Spieler die sich über sowas beschweren, es nach ihren Möglichkeiten zu ändern.
I hope this doesn't start one of these Damien-Aegohl arguments again, but we've disagreed in the past on this. Honestly, the community never was too hard on me. Most of the complaints I had to deal with were internal in nature or from players who really didn't play anymore. Players I killed in quests usually understood why they were killed and I didn't hesitate to kill anyone in quests, while I was in no hurry to kill them either. Having witnessed some of the quests where people complained against Damien, I've felt that perhaps some of it was a lack of understanding on one side or the other and just bad/blocked communication. However, that's not an easy thing to do, because the GM is one person and he has to communicate with so many people at once, and that's a two-way street.
I think you need to take a balanced view at things. If the playerbase isn't reacting how you want them to, well, that's something you can change through interaction. Communication is a big part in that.
Anyhow, I think the main reason why there are so many quests about good v evil, swords and sorcery, and end of the world scenarios is because those are staples of the genre, really. Many GM's come from a tabletop gaming history, and those are the type of stories that are easy to put together and really players do mostly react favorably to them.
While I did minor non-violent events, I can't think of a quest that I did that didn't require some sort of fighting challenge... wait. One. Anyhow, I tried and I'm sure every GM tries to add roles for other folks, but you'll never please everyone.
In any case, I don't think it's any fair to the players to blame them for the lack of GM's and GM quests. We work when we have an internal energy that drives us and we quit when that energy is all done up. Some GM's run out of energy and keep working, but never recover and just flounder, sometimes for years. Only we have the power to feed the inner flame, and even if you run into a bummer it's your job to keep that flame protected.
I think you need to take a balanced view at things. If the playerbase isn't reacting how you want them to, well, that's something you can change through interaction. Communication is a big part in that.
Anyhow, I think the main reason why there are so many quests about good v evil, swords and sorcery, and end of the world scenarios is because those are staples of the genre, really. Many GM's come from a tabletop gaming history, and those are the type of stories that are easy to put together and really players do mostly react favorably to them.
While I did minor non-violent events, I can't think of a quest that I did that didn't require some sort of fighting challenge... wait. One. Anyhow, I tried and I'm sure every GM tries to add roles for other folks, but you'll never please everyone.
In any case, I don't think it's any fair to the players to blame them for the lack of GM's and GM quests. We work when we have an internal energy that drives us and we quit when that energy is all done up. Some GM's run out of energy and keep working, but never recover and just flounder, sometimes for years. Only we have the power to feed the inner flame, and even if you run into a bummer it's your job to keep that flame protected.
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Damien
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Exactly ! Just that this energy is used up alot, if a few people who (usually) don't even play, complain about everything. And a GM who uses up ten times the energy by dealing with complaints than used by creating quests, WILL loose the fun in creating quests or even work for the community. Some recover, some will say "this is not worth putting all the work in anymore" and leave.Aegohl wrote:We work when we have an internal energy that drives us and we quit when that energy is all done up. Some GM's run out of energy and keep working, but never recover and just flounder, sometimes for years.
The communication is an important part, and you don't have really working communication if three people who don't even participate in something, complain it down on te forums afterwards and also get ten other people who didn't participate either to jump into the flame war as well.
And that is what has to change, or Questers will continue to leave as fast as they come. Therefore : --> CHANGE THAT ATTITUDE, and you'll get more people willing to help and to contribute time in creation here.
To be honest, its completely unsurprising that GM's quickly loose motivation and drive. The whole way they are expected to GM and the rules around that means it is boring and unfulfilling. It's really no wonder that players soon stop playing when they become a GM and shortly after that stop GMing too. I think player complaints only really hasten the inevitable. The underlying problem is much more deeply rooted into the whole GM ethos.
no quest runs on hack and slash alone..
fighters need weapons and armor(usualy) " omg there are smiths!!"
Some need leather goods "omg there are hunters and tailors!!"
and every one needs to eat.. " holy fricken cow!! there are cooks!!"
some fighters need potions " hi alchies!"
Some folks just like to drink till they crap them selves to death " hello again cooks and brewers"
cooks need things to cook " can you say Farmers!?"
Smiths need handles and archers need arrows " *gasp* Carpenters"
or if all else fails be like Darius and slave away at something and pretend you don't care... for those who say you cant avoid monsters i did it for a full year IG with Darius.. if you know where they are you don't go there! there is a reason Darius is good at almost every thing but fighting even if he's not a master... that is he rarely fights.. could be why he loves it though..
if you can think of more "useless" professions pm me i'll give you a reason you're not useless ;)
David D. Kain
fighters need weapons and armor(usualy) " omg there are smiths!!"
Some need leather goods "omg there are hunters and tailors!!"
and every one needs to eat.. " holy fricken cow!! there are cooks!!"
some fighters need potions " hi alchies!"
Some folks just like to drink till they crap them selves to death " hello again cooks and brewers"
cooks need things to cook " can you say Farmers!?"
Smiths need handles and archers need arrows " *gasp* Carpenters"
or if all else fails be like Darius and slave away at something and pretend you don't care... for those who say you cant avoid monsters i did it for a full year IG with Darius.. if you know where they are you don't go there! there is a reason Darius is good at almost every thing but fighting even if he's not a master... that is he rarely fights.. could be why he loves it though..
if you can think of more "useless" professions pm me i'll give you a reason you're not useless ;)
David D. Kain
I don't think you completely caught what I was saying, Damien, but that's okay.
Nalzie, GM's tend to quit playing immediately after because the illusion is shattered, really. It's like going to see a magician when you know how he does all the tricks. At first it might still be interesting, but repetitive viewings will grow tedious. This is why I don't suggest that anyone becomes a GM until they are damned good and ready. However, it's difficult to find someone who's more or less on their way out of playing who still has a drive to build and create in a game they no longer play, and so the problem persists..
All I'm really trying to say is this: don't feel sorry for the GM's. Sure, be courteous. Be helpful. Yes. But don't feel sorry for them. The devs pour blood, sweat, and tears not to mention long hours into developing the game, get less than satisfactory reactions for it, get little reward when they do add something awesome, and still tend to last years longer than your average GM. Feel sorry for those guys. GM's, alternatively, are treated like rock stars by the players and do very little work (and I mean that for myself, as well).
The stalwarts of this community seem to have this attitude of "hum drum, I don't deserve anything so if I get a quest it's a bonus." If you want quests, do what Belegi did back in the day. As a player Belegi started a player questing group on her own and showed off that players can do more quests and better quests with none of the tools. I also recall players who came to me with fully written up quests and plotlines.
Now that's not for everyone, but if you want quests, take them. And when the GM's see it, it might just motivate them. =)
Lastly, tip your devs.
Nalzie, GM's tend to quit playing immediately after because the illusion is shattered, really. It's like going to see a magician when you know how he does all the tricks. At first it might still be interesting, but repetitive viewings will grow tedious. This is why I don't suggest that anyone becomes a GM until they are damned good and ready. However, it's difficult to find someone who's more or less on their way out of playing who still has a drive to build and create in a game they no longer play, and so the problem persists..
All I'm really trying to say is this: don't feel sorry for the GM's. Sure, be courteous. Be helpful. Yes. But don't feel sorry for them. The devs pour blood, sweat, and tears not to mention long hours into developing the game, get less than satisfactory reactions for it, get little reward when they do add something awesome, and still tend to last years longer than your average GM. Feel sorry for those guys. GM's, alternatively, are treated like rock stars by the players and do very little work (and I mean that for myself, as well).
The stalwarts of this community seem to have this attitude of "hum drum, I don't deserve anything so if I get a quest it's a bonus." If you want quests, do what Belegi did back in the day. As a player Belegi started a player questing group on her own and showed off that players can do more quests and better quests with none of the tools. I also recall players who came to me with fully written up quests and plotlines.
Now that's not for everyone, but if you want quests, take them. And when the GM's see it, it might just motivate them. =)
Lastly, tip your devs.
Ex-GM here, most of you young-uns won't know who the hell I am!
Anyways.
I broadly agree with what Aegohl's said. Really, don't feel sorry for most GMs. I am absolutely astonished and impressed with GMs like Damien and Estralis who have not reached critical mass of insanity yet. How they're not burned out is beyond me. I was a GM for about 2 years, but really only extremely active for 1 of those years. That was back when there was an application system and we had to spend most of our time offering criticism for absolutely dire prose. That was one constraint on quest-creativity back in the day.
The tools for developing quests are pretty limited too. At least, they were when I was a GM. Most quests HAD to be hacky/slashy with the veneer of a story line over them, because that was what was easiest. More detailed, long-term or rewarding quests involved making maps, waiting to have them approved/uploaded, etc. This also ties in with what Aegohl says about seeing behind the illusion of the game. Once you see the pain-staking process involved in making a quest, your grand story designs slowly diminish and become replaced with an increased frequency of more simple hack/slashery. It comes from a desire to balance meeting player expectation for lots of quests, with actually maintaing your own life and sanity. And yeah, most GMs NEVER play the game once they've served their time. See Aegohl, Papoitsi, Rinya, me etc.
ANYWAY, incoherent ramble over. And yes, give SOOOO much praise to the Devs. They're the ones making the game, slaving over it etc.
Anyways.
I broadly agree with what Aegohl's said. Really, don't feel sorry for most GMs. I am absolutely astonished and impressed with GMs like Damien and Estralis who have not reached critical mass of insanity yet. How they're not burned out is beyond me. I was a GM for about 2 years, but really only extremely active for 1 of those years. That was back when there was an application system and we had to spend most of our time offering criticism for absolutely dire prose. That was one constraint on quest-creativity back in the day.
The tools for developing quests are pretty limited too. At least, they were when I was a GM. Most quests HAD to be hacky/slashy with the veneer of a story line over them, because that was what was easiest. More detailed, long-term or rewarding quests involved making maps, waiting to have them approved/uploaded, etc. This also ties in with what Aegohl says about seeing behind the illusion of the game. Once you see the pain-staking process involved in making a quest, your grand story designs slowly diminish and become replaced with an increased frequency of more simple hack/slashery. It comes from a desire to balance meeting player expectation for lots of quests, with actually maintaing your own life and sanity. And yeah, most GMs NEVER play the game once they've served their time. See Aegohl, Papoitsi, Rinya, me etc.
ANYWAY, incoherent ramble over. And yes, give SOOOO much praise to the Devs. They're the ones making the game, slaving over it etc.
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Friedwulfa
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Damien
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@Aegohl : don't worry, think i got it, just didn't answer to all of it and focussed on what seemed most important. You know how long posts can become elseways.
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I liked the communicative part in the GM business. Even though i stopped GMing bout two or three years ago, my ICQ and MSN lists still contain more than fifty illarion contacts, even though i once cleaned out many never-online-contacts. You get to talk to a lot of people from all over the world if you're GM for seven or so years, however, that is if you can spend four to six hours per day in the evenings answering or listening to stuff and chatting. I had to stop when my g/f started to beat me
verbally.
Besides that, planning quests and making maps is of course the most fun part besides actually running quests, when the server survived those. Those things didn't "cost" energy, for my own experience. If they went well, stuff like that motivates and increases creative output.
From my own experiences, the demotivating part was the ever-persistant flame-complaining of usually always the same people about tiny or made-up issues. I saw like, how many ? Five ? Ten ? Good people become perma-inactive or leave directly after such a flaming or complaining spree, or after kindergarden-backtalk-nonsense in the community.
If you have different things to do in a staff and really get annoyed by something in one area, well, you can just retreat from one activity for a few weeks or months and do something else that needs work. For example : instead of questing, you focus more on reading some account stories and replying to those who fumbled those (good old times!). Or if the forums were silly, you go sort some written text parts and idea fragments or concepts, or you try teaching some new people RP ingame, arguing with them about why leet and constant dueling is a bad idea on this server... and so on. Or ask some of the tech guys if they need help with something. Lots of different things to do.
But ! Read enough silly complains, those must not necessarily be directed at you, read enough rantings and people kicking each other's verbal heads in, and you'll be more annoyed or frustrated than motivated. And in the long run, that also gets rid of people who have different things they can focus their work on.
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I liked the communicative part in the GM business. Even though i stopped GMing bout two or three years ago, my ICQ and MSN lists still contain more than fifty illarion contacts, even though i once cleaned out many never-online-contacts. You get to talk to a lot of people from all over the world if you're GM for seven or so years, however, that is if you can spend four to six hours per day in the evenings answering or listening to stuff and chatting. I had to stop when my g/f started to beat me
verbally.Besides that, planning quests and making maps is of course the most fun part besides actually running quests, when the server survived those. Those things didn't "cost" energy, for my own experience. If they went well, stuff like that motivates and increases creative output.
From my own experiences, the demotivating part was the ever-persistant flame-complaining of usually always the same people about tiny or made-up issues. I saw like, how many ? Five ? Ten ? Good people become perma-inactive or leave directly after such a flaming or complaining spree, or after kindergarden-backtalk-nonsense in the community.
If you have different things to do in a staff and really get annoyed by something in one area, well, you can just retreat from one activity for a few weeks or months and do something else that needs work. For example : instead of questing, you focus more on reading some account stories and replying to those who fumbled those (good old times!). Or if the forums were silly, you go sort some written text parts and idea fragments or concepts, or you try teaching some new people RP ingame, arguing with them about why leet and constant dueling is a bad idea on this server... and so on. Or ask some of the tech guys if they need help with something. Lots of different things to do.
But ! Read enough silly complains, those must not necessarily be directed at you, read enough rantings and people kicking each other's verbal heads in, and you'll be more annoyed or frustrated than motivated. And in the long run, that also gets rid of people who have different things they can focus their work on.
