Current Demon Quest and the way it treats the belief in Gods

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Post by Shandariel el Lysanthrai » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:10 pm

Current Demon Quest and the way it treats the belief in Gods

Hi everyone,

I have a little problem with a part of the current quest, and I would like to hear the opinions of others concerning this.

It happened that the demons appeared not just on the isle, but also in the shrines, crosses and temples of the five and younger gods, as if those places were holding no importance. They are completly unaffected by the holy places and don't care for them, yes, they even speak bad about the gods, claiming them to be without power or even non existant and it is a joke to belief in them cause they cant and wont do anything against the demons.

My problem with this is...that is pretty much destroying any religious roleplay ingame. we all play characters beliefing in the gods who are not just some memorys of the past or some ideas written down by others...the gods are real ingame. They have shown their might and power many times in the past. Silverbrand got moved to an other place by Irmorom, Tol Vanima got raised from the ocean by the five, the drought was ended through the influence of the gods. Messengers of them appeared, dead ones were blessed another life in rituals and the crosses repel any creatures and undeads. and and and...there are dozens of examples in which the gods took influence ingame.

And now the demons appear, and nothing happens. They attack and kill others at the cross, steal their souls on holy ground, or terrorize religious peoples standing at a shrine and praying to the gods for protection. It feels a bit like force roleplaying that the gods really dont exist anymore...It is really not easy to continue your religious roleplay ingame when a demon is standing right beside an altair of the five and mocks them and you, yes, even threaten to kill you right there infront of the shrine if you do not stop beliefing in the gods and turn to the demons...

In my opinion the PO's behind the demons and the GM's should concider more the holy power of shrines, crosses and altairs and they should not simply ignore them...their power IS real..I mean, in Tol Vanima there is holy light shining down around the altair...it is not just some neat grafic effect...it is actually a visible sign of the gods...a sign of their blessing...and still it gets ignored...I don't belief that the demons are powerfull enough to ignore completly the holy light of the five shining down on an altair of them. and if they are...well...then we can forget the ingame world Illarion anyway cause it would be soon destroyed and nothing can be done ;).

What are your opinions?

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Post by Grim_banned » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:17 pm

Holy cow, Shan... we are talking about a game here, not about real religion and gods... get a life *rolls eyes*

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Post by Flux » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:18 pm

In Vanima a holy light came and drove the demon away from the altar. What more do you want?

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Post by Shandariel el Lysanthrai » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:18 pm

@Grim
Um...I pretty much stated above that this is about the INGAME religion and the roleplay in connection with that. I really don't understand why you attack me now like that...

Just for your information. I am an atheist out of the game.

@Flux
That the demons show more respect infront of the holy places which hold the power of the gods and their blessing. If you are playing a religious character who takes refuge at a shrine or altair and start praying to the gods for protection and nearly every time the demon simply laughs and mocks him and does what he wants with the one praying it will pretty much destroy the roleplay part of the religion for the char. It is like force roleplaying that the gods don't exist and have no power over the demons and that the holy altairs are nothing else then...how were your words...rocks without meaning.

Religion IS a part of the roleplay ingame. And the religion ingame is not just some idea, it is real for the characters. The gods DO exist and take action and show their powers. If the quest gm's ignore now those gods and their shrines powers in 90 % of the cases it will pretty much destroy any roleplay background for that true existance of the gods and the belief in them. and that is what buggers me a bit
Last edited by Shandariel el Lysanthrai on Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Grim_banned » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:21 pm

Didnt mean to sound like an attack, but more like a critique.. the whole post sounds kinda silly, as if written about real religion and not the religion of a roleplaying game... :)

EDIT: demons showing respect to the gods.. thats a new one

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Post by Flux » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:26 pm

I told all the demons that altars are now safe havens.

The semitranscendent one can still WHISPER at altars but not appear.

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Post by Shandariel el Lysanthrai » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:32 pm

Thank you ^.^

But it didnt even have to go that far...what was troubling me were not that there have been demons at the altair...but simply that those places had no influence. It would be already a great improvement if they would feel uncomfortable or weakened, or would have troubles staying there...maybe they feel pain or feel how the power repels them and their demon powers. They don't have to stay away completly =).
Aslong as the holy power won't be ignored and will be involved in the Roleplay there is no problem for me *smiles*

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Post by Olaf Tingvatn » Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:24 pm

not that i bothered to read that whole rant and rave BUT... they are demons, what makes a demon a demon? they are evil.they dont care about any other "gods" and do what the fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu they ever want to do, jeebus...for an atheist you care greatly for fake religion..hm..they come in all shapes and sizes dont they...?

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Post by Alexander Knight » Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:26 pm

Well if you look back at the history of the gods especially Moshrans, you will see that no younger god could stop him and they had to call upon Brágon and his dragons to defeat him. So my advice..... Pray.... Or die :D

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Post by Keikan Hiru » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:01 pm

At the very end it's a question of scale.

How important is this altar in the grand sheme of the whole world and does it get the attention of the god it is dedicated to?
Not every little stone that someone declared holy might have been recognized by the gods yet.

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Post by Kranek » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:27 pm

Shan: Thanks for pointing that out. Religion IS a very important part of the game cause its part of the background of Illarion and our chars!

@Olaf:
Rules of posting:
-Read
-Think
-Think again
-Write
-Think AGAIN
-Post

If you skip ONE of these points:
DONT mind posting at all.

@Keikan: If your theory were true, perhaps you'd have a point here. But you don't. Most altars we are talking about are designed by the gods themselves, f.e. The holy Oak of Nordmark. Tanora planted it. If I imagine a demon going there and talking bad about the goddess, I also have to imagine him being crushed in the very same second by a mighty wave, a giant icicle or at least knocked out by a very heavy branch.

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Post by Keikan Hiru » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:50 pm

Don't become to matter-of-fact-y when it comes to mysticism.

Your characters belive that Tanora planted this tree. Might have been some completly different enity of the panteon claiming to be Tanora. Slowly driving the dwellers of the Northmark into his/her corrupted ways.
Mortal characters have little grasp of supernatural things, they cling to simplified explainations.

... at least in the books that I read.

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Post by Olaf Tingvatn » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:28 am

Kranek wrote:Shan: Thanks for pointing that out. Religion IS a very important part of the game cause its part of the background of Illarion and our chars!

@Olaf:
Rules of posting:
-Read
-Think
-Think again
-Write
-Think AGAIN
-Post

If you skip ONE of these points:
DONT mind posting at all.

@Keikan: If your theory were true, perhaps you'd have a point here. But you don't. Most altars we are talking about are designed by the gods themselves, f.e. The holy Oak of Nordmark. Tanora planted it. If I imagine a demon going there and talking bad about the goddess, I also have to imagine him being crushed in the very same second by a mighty wave, a giant icicle or at least knocked out by a very heavy branch.
correction..*grumbles* i said what had to be said. did read, thought, thought again, wrote, thought AGAIN then posted. its just my oppinions..jeebus..so sorry..really sooo sorrryyy....

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Post by Joxia Doral » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:48 am

Also it should be noted that ALL of the gods made an appearance on Gobaith to stop the reunion of Moshran with the tainted armor of Madrook. For the couple dozen mortals that witnessed this event any dopubt of the existence of the Gods should have been wiped away. On the other hand I can recall that the shrines and altars are favorite places for demons to desecrate. Also on the day that gods saved the world from Moshrans wrath they made it very clear that would not be interfering with mortals again and that our survival or destruction was up to us. (of course, they are the Gods and can change their minds at any time)

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Post by Wyrda » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:55 am

I completely agree with the OP. In-game the gods are real and interfere frequently. In-game the gods are being mocked at their holiest of places. In-game the gods would not allow this to happen. Simple.

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Post by Alli Zelos » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:58 am

They are not being mocked, as far as I read. The problem has been fixed... lock the thread?

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Post by Rincewind » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:32 am

I like to add another point.

All things are able to say with the tale of Hiob in bible.

God(s) proove their worshipers.
Do not think your Char will be able to understand one of their actions.
They are Gods. Doing waht they like to do. And not waht you like to see.
Be sure there is a well reason for don't bash the demons just. (on longer few)
Kawanga!

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Post by Alexander Knight » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:20 pm

Lets face it. Gods can be killed. Madrook basically done it. Moshran done it to his fellow gods. I bet the gods are shitting themselves over these skill stretched PGers

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Post by Milo Bottoms » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:23 pm

Perhaps when we have Clerics in the game with real powers the Religious aspects will be paid attention to by more than a very few players.

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Post by Alexander Knight » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:44 pm

Bit of a sly dig at the devs and players :P

Well from an IG point of view the best with the Gods are Orcs, Lizards and Elves. Alex dont believe in a god as he has never seen proof of their existence but when Bragon comes back with a flaming sword and hordes of dragons I'll believe then :P

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Post by Kevin Lightdot » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:47 pm

Who said demons can't bluff btw?

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Post by Damien » Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:17 pm

OMG... another of these things.

Ladies and gentlemen,

What we have here is not realy worth of any further discussion, nor is it worth getting angry over.

GMs hire NPCs, NPCs are humans too, their briefing might not have included things that the briefers/GMs did not think of worth mentioning, and kazzang a few NPCs do something unpretty that none of the plot GMs could foresee. It's just Murphy's Law.
Now the GMs re-briefed their NPCs, stuff is being done with more "plan" now, no damage done, everything fine.

Stuff like this happens, happened before, will happen again.
Players playing NPCs can be a bit over-in-the-fun, happens, will be corrected by the GMs doing the plot. Everything normal.
Everyone please stop ranting and discussing and start enjoy playing !

Lock pwease ?

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Post by Mesha » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:47 pm

Mostly agree with Damien's story, however:

Lore-specific issues can always be discussed (in a friendly manner). I think it broadens the knowledge of players about the world, and I have always found that aspect about Illarion fun. Please, try to keep your flames away from such threads, and let players have their (fantastical) theological debates.

This was a post from Shan asking about opinions. She gave hers, other players (or perhaps even the GMs in question if they feel the need) can add with other arguments. A perfectly valid use of the General Forum. ;)

Mesha

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Post by Kevin Lightdot » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:52 pm

Kevin Lightdot wrote:Who said demons can't bluff btw?
Referring to the fact that the demons weren't 'intimidated' by the altar incase it was unclear btw.

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Post by Pellandria » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:57 pm

I doubt you can come away with the "yeah we were just playing it off "ha ha"", if you hold your hand in a burn furnace which burns the flesh from your bones, you can't just say "hehe you can obviously see I'm in pain and dieing here, but I will just keep on taunting you!".

Shans Post was justified, seeing how several times in the past people ignored the holy places, this is not a one time way, but several occurrences, but anyway it seems the problem was fixed...up till a new batch of random questers get the chance to trample all over ig logic and lore.

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Post by Kevin Lightdot » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:08 pm

Demonguy runs away quickly
Demonguy: Aaah!
Someone: Wait,,, sir.
Demonguy: It burns!
Demonguy: Ouch ouch ooouch!
Someone : verrückt..nghaa..
Demonguy: Pfuffff...
Demonguy: Safe.
Someone shakes his haed, looking after man.
Someone : Verrückt... offensichtlich, ja...
Demonguy sits on the bridge above
Demonguy tosses a coin down at the woman's head
Someone looks up at the bridge, frowning.
Someone : What the...?
S:Demonguy: The elder gods grant you money!
Gods acknowlaged, shrine hurt, point made?

And did they, at any point(Beside the first demon screaming like a ninny and running away), enter your shrine?
Last edited by Kevin Lightdot on Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Alexander Knight » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:10 pm

Okay I'm getting really pissed off with this now. Yeah maybe they did do stuff to annoy the gods. But so have many others, it's not like you pray regularly to them. This has happened before if you look at the IG history on wiki. And it was ended by a mortal with some help from the gods the mortal then went on to become Moshran but thats another story. Just because you cant chase the naked elfesses around the alter no more does not make it a bad quest! Try using your head a bit more and do some research into the Rot and help the resistance. The gods will not come and save you at every turn as it also said in Illarion history when the crafted world was passed over to the mortals.
Unless you piss on their alter. then they hit you with lightning

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Post by Flux » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:15 pm

How can you even still be complaining? Noone has entered altars since!

Alexander Knight even pissed on some shrine, so he had Irmorom watching him so Miden couldn't even go to his jail cell and attack him.

I hate people who lock threads, but really, if anyone is still complaining they're misinformed.

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