"Vanima" vs. "Tol Vanima"
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"Vanima" vs. "Tol Vanima"
A question about usage: Are these terms just synonyms? Or does anyone else also understand there to be a difference between Vanima and Tol Vanima? I somehow got the idea that Tol Vanima is the island and Vanima is a political entity (not quite a city or even a town, but that sort of thing) that sits on top of the island. Does that ring true to anyone else?
As to their locations on the map, the way I understand the two terms from the illa wiki and how Lhosseth uses them: Tol Vanima refers to the entire Elven island and Vanima is the Elven city, indeed not really a city but to me it means the main hall building.
When speaking of a political entity, I think they are the same, because both are controlled by the Elves and their system of government, the Elders, and protected by the Tinechor.
When speaking of a political entity, I think they are the same, because both are controlled by the Elves and their system of government, the Elders, and protected by the Tinechor.
- Alli Zelos
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- Aldan Vian
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- Shandariel el Lysanthrai
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- Location: Somewhere on Vanima
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True 'dat. Still, it's ambiguous just which part of the island is supposed to be Vanima proper. It might not be a proper part (in the technical, mereological sense). It could be that "Vanima" refers only to the Great Hall, but it seems odd that the smithy wouldn't be considered part of Vanima. For now, I'm sticking with my original understanding: Tol Vanima is a landmass, a physical entity, and Vanima is a settlement, a political entity, that overlaps entirely with (the surface of) the physical entity. Esp. now that I know that one of the Vanima Elders shares my understanding.Hadrian_Abela wrote:I just realised that if you look at the Map of Gobaith - it clearly shows "TOL VANIMA" to be the island, with "Vanima" inside it.
- Cain Freemont
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Not all of us.Shandariel el Lysanthrai wrote:Exactly
We elfs love to do it complicated
@Thread Topic:
As for Tol Vanima vs. Vanima, I've always looked at them as a formal/informal contrast as stated by Alli. When speaking with a complete stranger (and sometimes people he doesn't like), Cain makes a direct attempt at not slipping into an informal context, and so Vanima becomes Tol Vanima and Bane becomes Troll's Bane. Ultimately the distinction should be made based on how one's character approaches it. The idea that Tol Vanima and Vanima as island and community was an intentional decision seems incorrect. It is simply an informal shortening that has taken place over time. I remember when the elven community was verbatim and given proper noun capitalization (Elven Community). When the island arose from the sea, the community needed a proper name and Tol Vanima was chosen.
Guess I could be wrong. The details aren't 100% clear to me anymore and I am not up to snuff on the political climate of Tol Vanima.
Although I hate to the very fibre of my being the word(s) FOIG. This seems to me to be something that was developed through characters, as opposed to players, and so should be something that is not defined through OOC parameters. The greatest strength of Illarion is the character of the world that is developed ingame through the characters and their interactions. To step back and define what these things mean extrinsically, as players, seems somehow to undermine the very life that our characters have given it.
I understand that from a game design viewpoint some OOC development is completely necessary and is more than welcomed. However I can't help but feel there is a point where we should step back and let the lore and life of illarion grow through its own means. Trying to narrow that down simply tends to result in terrible monstrosities such as the 'Warlock Definition'.
So in essence. It is whatever your character believes it is.
I understand that from a game design viewpoint some OOC development is completely necessary and is more than welcomed. However I can't help but feel there is a point where we should step back and let the lore and life of illarion grow through its own means. Trying to narrow that down simply tends to result in terrible monstrosities such as the 'Warlock Definition'.
So in essence. It is whatever your character believes it is.
Sorry, I wasn't looking for a decisive definition OOC. My characters and I already had opinions as to what, if anything, the distinction between Vanima and Tol Vanima amounts to. I was just curious as to how widely shared those opinions were. Even if this discussion thread had convinced me that my opinions were wrong (it hasn't -- it reinforced them), there wouldn't be any way for me to communicate my new understanding to my characters. So they'd have to go on using the terms in the wrong way. Maybe I should have started the thread on the Off-Topic board; nothing said here is really going to affect my gameplay.Nalzaxx wrote:To step back and define what these things mean extrinsically, as players, seems somehow to undermine the very life that our characters have given it.