Remove "Library Research" skill

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Post by Llama » Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:10 pm

Remove "Library Research" skill

There are a lot of books, and we always say that we wish there were more IG - but a good amount of people wouldn't bother reading them, because in order to read them, they need to open books, stay going back and forth over the pages at random, until they finally spend 2 skill 'sessions' in order to actually read somethign that is usually

1. Can be found written in some OOC area
2. Is purely roleplay

So I vote we remove it.

Discuss.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:14 pm

Do it!

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Post by Mesha » Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:31 pm

Couldn't agree more.

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Post by Kadiya » Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:56 pm

Hmpf...I like the library research skill!

You can give books a own complexity...even for each site if you want.

And so there are a few books arround, who not can be read from everybody and that is a feature, I really love.

Additional not every book could be find ooc too.

Noone is forced to pg the skill, because the most books in the librarys have a difficulty of 0. And at least, the skill doesn't disturbs.

So..I'm against the removing.

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Post by Keikan Hiru » Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:35 pm

I don't know, Kadiya.
While I certainly see your points in keeping this skill, I firmly belive that there are better ways to make some books sparse/hard to read then an arbitary skill.
A skill that maybe makes you click one book/page a couple of times in rapid succession just to advance to the next page.

Nah, I think you should get rid of this skill of the time being, until a more solid and fun way of reading books is present and not a click-fest.
(Unless you secretly work for computer mouse manufacturer.)

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Post by Llama » Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:40 pm

I would agree with certain books needing OTHER skills to read, but not an arbitrary one.

For example, a book on complex magic rituals for summoning demons would need a high decisio to read, and would be rare, only found in certain places (which would also make interesting 'quest rewards' if they ever become portable).

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Post by Keikan Hiru » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:00 pm

This doesn't sound like much fun either.

In my ideal game world, reading "super rare books" is a multiple steps progession, with neither forces you to skill something.
  1. Create a character that actually has the knowledge of "Reading and Writing"
    This is a either/or thing and mostly a freebie skill for all characters unless they are deliberatly dumb (Orcs/Barbarians).
    Even if you do not start with this skill, it is easy to come by at some NPC Vendor "selling" it to you for some coins.
  2. Congratulations! You can read about 90% of all books.
    For the other 10% you need to be a bit cleverer then the averange character and figure out why you cannot read this particular book. Most of the time the engine already tells you, something like: "You don't recognize this language."
    • You need to find someone, either NPC or Player, to tell you what kind of language this is.
    • This language is never a "speakable" language like Elvish, Human or Dwarvish, but something like "Ancient", "Gynkesh Swamp People Gribberish", "Northern Albarian Dialect".
    • You need a dictionary for this language and your motherlanguage (eg. Human to Gynk Swamp Dialect)
      This could be have multiple steps aswell, requireing you to come by better dictionaries if the book is written in complex language.
    • Congratulations! You can read now read books in different languages, with no need to click 100 times on something, or speak nonsense in some remote place to boost your "[Language-Name]-Skill", but with lots of quest and interaction possibilites.
  3. Sometimes the engine might also tell you: "This looks like somekind of code."
    • Time to use this thing that usualy makes sure your helmet stays in place. There has to be a cipher for every code.
    • Find that thieves guild you just stole (borrowed) this book from, the cipher is surely on some pell a higher-up is carrying arround with.
    • Or in this large locked chest ... keys?
    • A rather exhausting quest-chain and a couple of dead dragons later, you have that cipher and can finaly read what appears to be a lundry list of this now extinct thieves guild.
This is how books should be read in a game, in my opinion.
Every "un-readable" book is a perfect quest-hook and not an invitation for a click fest.
Everything else is just flavour and should not be limited.

Edit: Horrible, horrible spelling and grammar.
Last edited by Keikan Hiru on Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Llama » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:04 pm

I like your 'book quest' idea. That is a BRILLIANT piece of work. Finding a secret code which opens up the treasure room in the bandits hideout, after you get another book - is great.

The rest, I don't like that much. Sorry.

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Post by Kadiya » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:30 pm

Allright.

Then find and implement a better way to hold some books sparse/hard to read and I will say nothing anymore against a complete skill-remove.

But as long as there is no other way ingame, I'm still against the remove.

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:31 pm

Just to insert a previous request for similar proposal: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... y+research

Except for Druids needing this skill some may never use however, I actually enjoyed the "challenge" of the library skill going from inability to read most, to some, and finally able to read all the book.. most of the "history" I read ig rather then on site.

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Post by Llama » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:49 pm

@ Achae - while you enjoy it, I'm sure there are loads of people who don't read books just because they can't be bothered skilling up to be able to read them. This is meant to be a roleplaying game... and yet to read a book and get some RP BACKGROUND, you need to stay scrolling back and forth to skill up.

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:15 pm

Then reduce the skill so it is more easily gained? I did a lot of RPing while in the library "researching" Whereas another of my chars that can't read would get "frustrated" with the book and ask someone to read it for them *g* . All I am saying is the ability to "read" or not can also be part of the RP. I like having the skill.. just one opinion.

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Post by Kevin Lightdot » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:58 am

Keikans idea might also serve as an alternative treasure map source? :o

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Post by maryday » Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:42 pm

I see no benefit to gameplay in removing a skill wich is implemented for long
and has probably been bugchecked throughoutly several times.

Also it has no naming or structural error like "backing", it seems to me.

To leave in place what has been developped,
improving it with given proposals might be nice.


---

Example:
Lightdot "treasure map" idea for everybodies fun up to 25% skill, with ascending difficulty of maps at o%, 5%, 10%...
maybe some quest related informations also?
(Is "The sunken City" already implemented in historical scriptures?)

Skill-lock(s) at 25% (,50%, 65%..).

Keikan Quest(s) to "overcome" skill-lock(s).
At high levels ever increasing benefits as skillgain to other talents like ancient or sorcery stuff in general, as Hadrian mentioned,
or complexed quest related informations?

Connecting other skills to "library research" and vice versa has been proposed many times,
and it is a good idea, i think, as it favors IG-knowledge over OOC.

---

((To notice one can skillgain with scrolling back and forth, one has do do it at least once.)) :lol:

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Post by Llama » Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:39 pm

"((To notice one can skillgain with scrolling back and forth, one has do do it at least once.))"

I actually had a broken mousewheel once, the moment I touched it it scrolled back and forth through all the pages, got me three swirlies and hit the cap. In less than 5 seconds.

I still see no reason why a roleplaying game should have IG stories hidden by such a [forgot the word] skill. Its not like most characters can't read or anything.

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Post by Nalzaxx » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:46 am

Don't you mean; Library Reserach

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