I am not complaining at all about how Zak responded. Infact, i want to openly thank him for this.
People forget just how vulnerable humans really are. If you were sparring, and you were to recieve a cut, say to your arm, from a sword. This cut would cause profuse bleeding, extreme pain, possible damage to muscles, and be at high risk of infection, and could lead to death.
This is just a small example. A small cut is expected from a spar.. but when youre out there going full out, fighting a battle, people should be taking large injuries to more vital parts of the body. The truth is, mideval warfare, was a bloody, gruesome, and extremely deadly form of warfare. If the injury didnt get you, infection would. People would lose limbs or worse from such battles.
Rather we do see the "#me bleeds" or the "#me coughs up blood" that Zac mentioned before. Coughing up blood meant you had internal bleeding in either your lungs or stomach.. both of which would almost certainly mean death. The only way they could be saved would essentially be to get them to the hospital immediatly, and find a mage to fix them magically. In true mideval warfare, any person who coughed up blood was going to die. No two ways about it.
The fact is, people play themselves as super humans, myself included. Sure, none of us want to have our chars killed from a small battle like we saw today, but the least you could do would be to act out some sort of injury for the sheer sake of roleplay.
Also, I understand this is a fantasy game, thats why I believe that while you shouldnt die from such injuries, unless your character is dead beyond a reasonable doubt.. but rather, if they just go to the hospital and rp being injurred and getting healed by some sort of medico, and they should be healed after a short while.(which doesnt mean go to the hospital and be fighitng in under an hour.. you need some recovery time still)
My two cents. Thoughts?
Injuries and today's events
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Injuries and today's events
Last edited by bdgdkay on Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Yeah, I had read that, and you have no idea how much I wanted to post a comment on how much i supported the idea. that is quite honestly one of the best ones ive seen in a long time.
Anyways, on another note, i was just watching a fight scene from troy, and one guy has only barely been scraped across the leg with a sword and he fell to the ground with a scream, and he couldnt even stand.. had to try and crawl away. Heavy bleeding, etc. you know..
Anyways, on another note, i was just watching a fight scene from troy, and one guy has only barely been scraped across the leg with a sword and he fell to the ground with a scream, and he couldnt even stand.. had to try and crawl away. Heavy bleeding, etc. you know..
Thoughts? The thread was locked. Zak requested PMs for more discussion about the issue. I don't think thanking him for his actions changes that.
Also, adrenaline. If the two scenarios are tied closely together, the body's own inner workings could easily drive a person to ignore wounds that would otherwise prove hindering. I will readily admit, however, that the two scenarios were likely not close together. I was not present at the first of the engagements. There are many, many viable explanations for most of what appeared to take place, but it was simply deemed "bad RP" and the players were told they were naughty roleplayers.
Also, adrenaline. If the two scenarios are tied closely together, the body's own inner workings could easily drive a person to ignore wounds that would otherwise prove hindering. I will readily admit, however, that the two scenarios were likely not close together. I was not present at the first of the engagements. There are many, many viable explanations for most of what appeared to take place, but it was simply deemed "bad RP" and the players were told they were naughty roleplayers.
But, adreneline or not, cut/torn ligaments and tendons, broken bones, cut/torn muscles will prevent you from moving no matter how much adreneline is flowing through you.. I would know. Its just not physically possible to move an injury like that.
Also, this is not for discussions about today so much as a call to attention when it comes to rping injuries. Im just saying, what happened today, in my opinion, was right, because people were exceeding the limits of the human body, which is more related to the idea of promoting the rp of injurries than it is a comment on the rp of today.
Edit: Also, I posted this to be used constructively, not to have people complain about what happened, which is what was going on in the other thread.
Edit 2: Also, while adreneline will allow you to fight despite more minor cuts, it also increases blood pressure which in turn goes on to force more blood from the body, and proving to be even more deadly in most cases.
Also, this is not for discussions about today so much as a call to attention when it comes to rping injuries. Im just saying, what happened today, in my opinion, was right, because people were exceeding the limits of the human body, which is more related to the idea of promoting the rp of injurries than it is a comment on the rp of today.
Edit: Also, I posted this to be used constructively, not to have people complain about what happened, which is what was going on in the other thread.
Edit 2: Also, while adreneline will allow you to fight despite more minor cuts, it also increases blood pressure which in turn goes on to force more blood from the body, and proving to be even more deadly in most cases.
Last edited by bdgdkay on Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
I agree with this 100% It is very unrealistic and stupid for people to be getting hurt all the time and not noticing, sparring, falling to the ground, and not even bothering to rp an injury. For example, I was on the roof of the seahorse, and walked too far and accidentally dropped off the roof, I immediatly rped my mistake, and Iris sustained a dislocated knee, ankle, and a compound fracture to her shin. It wasnt all fun rp either, Iris was bedridden for a couple days, and if no one was around she could just lay there for hours with no one to rp with. After she got crutches, things improved, but I still took (and take) care to walk slower than normal, emote it often, and dont do any unrealistic actions, like: "#me stands on her good leg, using one crutch as she spars the dwarf" Realisism people. Its why I love Illa. A note: I am also going to wait the ig 6 weeks, rl 2, before it is fully healed.
Nuff bout me, some annonomous* examples of unrealistic rp.
1-I saw someone fight to the death, falling over, almost getting ghosted, then stand, drink a health potion and attack again.
2-Someone came into town with a broken arm, an less than 2 rl minutes later, was ignoring it and waving around two swords.
3-Someone went into the graveyard, was attacked by a lich, and was ghosted. The next ig day, he is walking about bane, perfectly healthy.
Okays.. You all heard nuff from me.. now we get to the good part... discussion!
*I love you all, and if you are one of the annonomous above, take it as constructive critisism, cause I mean no insults.
Nuff bout me, some annonomous* examples of unrealistic rp.
1-I saw someone fight to the death, falling over, almost getting ghosted, then stand, drink a health potion and attack again.
2-Someone came into town with a broken arm, an less than 2 rl minutes later, was ignoring it and waving around two swords.
3-Someone went into the graveyard, was attacked by a lich, and was ghosted. The next ig day, he is walking about bane, perfectly healthy.
Okays.. You all heard nuff from me.. now we get to the good part... discussion!
*I love you all, and if you are one of the annonomous above, take it as constructive critisism, cause I mean no insults.
@ Bdg: Okay, well let's look at it another way then. Did you bear witness to any roleplay that involved specific debilitation of opposing forces (people actually seeking to cut ligaments, tendons, and so on)? If not, there is no reason to believe that people had been debilitated as such. Ghosted characters, I will concede, should have stayed out of whatever events took place afterwards. It makes sense. But if a character, upon realizing their injuries, is still in a capacity to move around and has a burning desire toward revenge or valor or whatever drives that person, then it does not seem so far fetched to me.
Regardless, I somewhat feel as though this conversation is going to end up being what Zak wanted to avoid.
I understand where you are coming from, but I disagree with the situation entirely. From a "general" perspective, of course people should roleplay injuries appropriately. But it isn't for other players to decide what is appropriate for one's own character. Not even GMs. And that is all I am going to say in this thread.
Edit: Adrenaline was an example, not a primary argument.
Edit 2: Thank you Azuros, for being a middle ground. I always admired that.
Regardless, I somewhat feel as though this conversation is going to end up being what Zak wanted to avoid.
I understand where you are coming from, but I disagree with the situation entirely. From a "general" perspective, of course people should roleplay injuries appropriately. But it isn't for other players to decide what is appropriate for one's own character. Not even GMs. And that is all I am going to say in this thread.
Edit: Adrenaline was an example, not a primary argument.
Edit 2: Thank you Azuros, for being a middle ground. I always admired that.
Last edited by Cain Freemont on Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Injuries and today's events
You have no idea how great you are in my opinion right nowbdgdkay wrote: Rather we do see the "#me bleeds" or the "#me coughs up blood" that Zac mentioned before. Coughing up blood meant you had internal bleeding in either your lungs or stomach.. both of which would almost certainly mean death. The only way they could be saved would essentially be to get them to the hospital immediatly, and find a mage to fix them magically. In true mideval warfare, any person who coughed up blood was going to die. No two ways about it.
As the player of a medico, I've had people come to me with wounds that are pretty dangerous even by today's medical standards and expecting me to cure them. Additionally, people don't seem to understand the gravity of some wounds. An arrow shot at you isn't just a thorn you can remove easily and be fine later. It is a very grave wound that effectively disables you from battle.
Other players of medicos and I have frequently talked about the stuff we've had to see, but we have taken it all because in the end, fun is the goal and having your character suffer that much from every battle is no fun to anyone.
So, shorter version: It might be a bit annoying to see people go from a fatal injury to fine the next day, but I'll live with it so long as people try to roleplay in some way.
Yes, but -some- rp of injuries would be nice. Im not saying to specifically rp those injurries when someone doesnt say they mean to, but it is assumed, even in a friendly spar, that you are going to get small injurries like cuts, and the occasional major injury like broken bones and all the rest of them..
Im not saying Im perfect at this.. or that you should even neccesarily rp injuries at every single spar, but rather, from time to time, throw it in there.. make some good roleplay out of it, and in the long run, have a good time with it.
Edit: Also, I understand adreneline wasnt your main arguement, but it was a point you made that I felt should be adressed.
Im not saying Im perfect at this.. or that you should even neccesarily rp injuries at every single spar, but rather, from time to time, throw it in there.. make some good roleplay out of it, and in the long run, have a good time with it.
Edit: Also, I understand adreneline wasnt your main arguement, but it was a point you made that I felt should be adressed.
I'd agree to all of this because I don't like seeing folk getting ghosted then coming back for more, just doesn't work. I've had ever broken bone under the sun (collar bone has to be the worst) So I'll try to Rp anything my char gets right as I'd be restricted in life. Though I'd say when it comes to healing if the medico or mage goes like this:
mage: heals your gash to your back, closing the wound
It seems like a simple answer to something that could heavily influence what your char can and can't do. For a attack to your back I'd say thats damage to the spine which you can't fix witha click of a button, even for mages.
Though, I'd say its the way your ghosted that affects how your char ends up. If they end up cooked in the fire, They won't be walking properly for a wee while, if they get smashed with a sword, they end up with a nasty open cut they need to fix right away, if they be unlucky enough to end with a mace that's a crushed bone they'll have to deal with. All in all, chars need to fear ghosting or at least rp along to how they get there in the first place
mage: heals your gash to your back, closing the wound
It seems like a simple answer to something that could heavily influence what your char can and can't do. For a attack to your back I'd say thats damage to the spine which you can't fix witha click of a button, even for mages.
Though, I'd say its the way your ghosted that affects how your char ends up. If they end up cooked in the fire, They won't be walking properly for a wee while, if they get smashed with a sword, they end up with a nasty open cut they need to fix right away, if they be unlucky enough to end with a mace that's a crushed bone they'll have to deal with. All in all, chars need to fear ghosting or at least rp along to how they get there in the first place
Illarion is not real life it is a game.
People do not roleplay injuries for days because it is not fun to do so.
People play (and rightly so) in order to have fun.
If you want people to stay out of action longer, and roleplay more injuries, increase the technical penalties for death.
I for one am in favour of letting the system decide such things.
Also, I'd just like to point out. Magical powers. I will start roleplaying serious injuries for weeks in Illarion the moment I can shoot fireballs from my fingers IRL.
If that means I am a bad RPer in your books. So be it.
People do not roleplay injuries for days because it is not fun to do so.
People play (and rightly so) in order to have fun.
If you want people to stay out of action longer, and roleplay more injuries, increase the technical penalties for death.
I for one am in favour of letting the system decide such things.
Also, I'd just like to point out. Magical powers. I will start roleplaying serious injuries for weeks in Illarion the moment I can shoot fireballs from my fingers IRL.
If that means I am a bad RPer in your books. So be it.
And this is why I play illarion and not another generic game. The point remains however, that there is an engine for a reason, and you cannot fault people for roleplaying within the limits of said engine. If the engine allows them to operate as fully healed, then why shouldn't they be allowed to roleplay in a similar manner? You cannot balance this by saying, "Such and such is bad roleplay". It also implies that using the engine, for fighting and other purposes, is completely distinct from roleplay. Just because someone is using the engine to fight someone, instead of writing lengthy essays on the subject does not make them any less a roleplayer.bdgdkay wrote:But, also, this is a role playing game.
How many times have we seen people write that this is not a regular hack and slash game?
Rp'ing injuries is a way to get more rp, and less of the hack and slash.
This hangup that using the engine is taboo is completely non-sensical, and quite frankly, I think it can hinder the atmosphere significantly. I've been engine attacked by the Bearers with less than ten words said beforehand. And I'm fine with that. They are playing within the limitations that the engine gives them, and while it may be a bitter pill to swallow at times, I cannot justifiably bring up any gripes with such behaviour.
Also, my main point to take into consideration, dont rp every single cut from every single spar.. That is where it gets too realistic, and would get annoying. But when you get ghosted, Youre in a huge(meaning huge for illa.. so yeah, more than a small amount of people) battle, youre in a fight based mostly the idea that there was rp leading up to the fight, or in other such situations, rp some sort of injury.
So yeah, this game is not supposed to be exactly like real life. But also, this is not fantasy to the point of runescape. and quite frankly, saying things like "#me bleeds" or "#me coughs up blood", etc. Thats barely above Runescape on the rp scale imho.
Edit: And yes, using the engine to determine a fight 100% of the way is runescape imo. If you just go, swing the swords until the health bar is gone, then go and fight again right away with no rp of getting injuries checked out, and you do this several times a day, thats essentially runescape style fighting
So yeah, this game is not supposed to be exactly like real life. But also, this is not fantasy to the point of runescape. and quite frankly, saying things like "#me bleeds" or "#me coughs up blood", etc. Thats barely above Runescape on the rp scale imho.
Edit: And yes, using the engine to determine a fight 100% of the way is runescape imo. If you just go, swing the swords until the health bar is gone, then go and fight again right away with no rp of getting injuries checked out, and you do this several times a day, thats essentially runescape style fighting
Alright.. Which one of these honestly looks better?(which im just doing this as a pretty basic comparison.. its not going to be perfect either way)
Example 1:
P1: #me coughs up blood
P1: #me gets send to the cross
P1: #me stumbles back to the fight
P1: #me attacks his opponent
P1: #me repeats steps 2,3, and 4 several times
-this way p1 will then have to go back to the graveyard to pg for several days to recover lost skills, and providing less rp
Or Example 2:
P1: #me stands back from the fight, watching the battle
P2: #me falls back from the fight coughing up blood, and crawls back from the fight
P1: #me sees P2 fall back from the fight and moves to his side to help them
P2: #me groans a bit and asks for help to the hospital
P1: #me helps him back to the hospital with help of P3 who happens to be a medico
P1: #me helps P1 into the bed, and moves to the side to give P3 room to work
P3: #me looks over P2's wounds, heals them, etc.
-then P2 is able to go around town for several more days with the risk of further injury, but is still able to rp
Example 1:
P1: #me coughs up blood
P1: #me gets send to the cross
P1: #me stumbles back to the fight
P1: #me attacks his opponent
P1: #me repeats steps 2,3, and 4 several times
-this way p1 will then have to go back to the graveyard to pg for several days to recover lost skills, and providing less rp
Or Example 2:
P1: #me stands back from the fight, watching the battle
P2: #me falls back from the fight coughing up blood, and crawls back from the fight
P1: #me sees P2 fall back from the fight and moves to his side to help them
P2: #me groans a bit and asks for help to the hospital
P1: #me helps him back to the hospital with help of P3 who happens to be a medico
P1: #me helps P1 into the bed, and moves to the side to give P3 room to work
P3: #me looks over P2's wounds, heals them, etc.
-then P2 is able to go around town for several more days with the risk of further injury, but is still able to rp
To point something out, while we're getting technical:
1)Two people sparring would not be using sharpened blades... It's simply not done.
2)People would not be running around the battlefield in full, solid plate armor.
3)Orcs, Lizards, Elves, Gnomes, Fairies, Drows, etc. did not exist.
As you can see, Illarion is not quite historically accurate.
... I do agree, though. Let's stop with the uber, invincible warriors. Let's see how many apple trees we can plant on the island instead, eh?
1)Two people sparring would not be using sharpened blades... It's simply not done.
2)People would not be running around the battlefield in full, solid plate armor.
3)Orcs, Lizards, Elves, Gnomes, Fairies, Drows, etc. did not exist.
As you can see, Illarion is not quite historically accurate.
... I do agree, though. Let's stop with the uber, invincible warriors. Let's see how many apple trees we can plant on the island instead, eh?
.And this is why I play illarion and not another generic game. The point remains however, that there is an engine for a reason, and you cannot fault people for roleplaying within the limits of said engine
In fact, we do all the time. It's called "passing judgment". Now, this is roleplaying game with emphasis on fairness instead of "winning". Reliance on engine enables you to win all the time if you do it right, however this often is done at the expense of fairness, fun and general courtesy towards other players. I know it's a bit unfair, but maybe you would like to tell what would have been the direction where the bearers-case would have been if you were not in fact so incredibly good sport about that?
Moreover, aren't you yourself making a distinction with the case, by specifically mentioning a situation where behaviour had been .. different to what your expectations or standards are?Allowing people to use the engine without any consideration to realism, sensibility of actions and fairness is an enormous slippery slope, leading to nothing good. Hiding in the building shadows? Hell yes. Logging out? Why not. Completely unfair, illogical, et cetera RP involving identification of characters. Sure. Walking to someone and killing them without a word? Bellissimo! While being defeated, turning around and running away without saying anything, fleeing half the map from pursuers and locking yourself in the outhouse, taunting the other character from there since you know that there's no way anyone gets in there? Ok. Grabbing stuff from the ground without saying a thing? Free stuff for you! Changing your equipment from cloth to steel without a word since you've been confronted by someone? Ok.
The engine allows you to do all that. However, we all also know that a lot of the aforementioned stuff will in fact get your ass banned, or will make you very undesired person to play with at the very least. Why? Because that is not fair, courteous or nice behaviour towards your fellow players.
This isn't argument against your position in this case per se, however this is argument against what you say in general. Using the engine and roleplaying within the engine is to a degree limited and treated differently because this allows people to dick around and force their shit down their fellow player's throat without any consent or consideration. This, in many cases results in a decrease of overall fun and enjoyment for everyone else who is playing.
I mean, look at it this way: The other guy has just engine wise, technically defeated you... beat you in the face with a huge hammer and you completely ignore that, because the engine does not permakill your character or make playing pure misery? I mean, there are in fact engine pointers to the fact that your char is not well. Where does the "roleplay" part come in? Does the engine somehow free you from all responsibility or judgment?
No, it does not. You can still be a moron, even if the engine allows you to be just that. Engine allowing something is nothing more than a statement that well.. the engine allows something. Whether this something, is good, bad or desirable is a matter of individual judgment, and ultimately of the GM's judgment.
Mr. Cromwell wrote:---annoying campaign ad removed---And this is why I play illarion and not another generic game. The point remains however, that there is an engine for a reason, and you cannot fault people for roleplaying within the limits of said engine.
In fact, we do all the time. It's called "passing judgment". Now, this is roleplaying game with emphasis on fairness instead of "winning". Reliance on engine enables you to win all the time if you do it right, however this often is done at the expense of fairness, fun and general courtesy towards other players. I know it's a bit unfair, but maybe you would like to tell what would have been the direction where the bearers-case would have been if you were not in fact so incredibly good sport about that?
Response: Using the game engine within the limits of roleplay is something that cannot be faulted for. If you can fault for it, may as well scrap the whole system and just play the entire game with a text interface. No joke, because that is exactly what ignoring the game mechanics boils down to. He isn't saying to rely on the game engine, but use it in tandem with roleplaying. This is something that has been a raging problem for years and is becoming increasingly more difficult with both sides polarizing to one agenda or the other due to disliking either minuscule or major aspects of each side.
Allowing people to use the engine without any consideration to realism, sensibility of actions and fairness is an enormous slippery slope, leading to nothing good. Hiding in the building shadows? Hell yes. Logging out? Why not. Completely unfair, illogical, et cetera RP involving identification of characters. Sure. Walking to someone and killing them without a word? Bellissimo! While being defeated, turning around and running away without saying anything, fleeing half the map from pursuers and locking yourself in the outhouse, taunting the other character from there since you know that there's no way anyone gets in there? Ok. Grabbing stuff from the ground without saying a thing? Free stuff for you! Changing your equipment from cloth to steel without a word since you've been confronted by someone? Ok.
Response: Again this is an example being taken to an extreme. Use the system while you roleplay. Don't be afraid of pressing key combinations other than the alphabet. Mages do it all the time. To answer all of the questions in this paragraph in a simple manner, starting from the top: Yes (within bounds of roleplayability), no (violates rules), no (metagaming), yes (a completely insane or enraged individual. a simple #me attacks would validate this), yes (taunting is within a character's right as long as there is no RP'able method to reaching the taunting character), no (unidentifiable if in a crowd and not in a roleplay perspective), and the last one is iffy. People are gonna do that and you literally can't stop them. Have fun with that.
The engine allows you to do all that. However, we all also know that a lot of the aforementioned stuff will in fact get your ass banned, or will make you very undesired person to play with at the very least. Why? Because that is not fair, courteous or nice behaviour towards your fellow players.
Response: Of course it will get you banned. If you do not properly provide roleplay for your mechanics-driven actions.
This isn't argument against your position in this case per se, however this is argument against what you say in general. Using the engine and roleplaying within the engine is to a degree limited and treated differently because this allows people to dick around and force their shit down their fellow player's throat without any consent or consideration. This, in many cases results in a decrease of overall fun and enjoyment for everyone else who is playing.
I mean, look at it this way: The other guy has just engine wise, technically defeated you... beat you in the face with a huge hammer and you completely ignore that, because the engine does not permakill your character or make playing pure misery? I mean, there are in fact engine pointers to the fact that your char is not well. Where does the "roleplay" part come in? Does the engine somehow free you from all responsibility or judgment?
Response: The roleplay comes in when you type #me. Its as simple as that. If someone soundly thrashes you, then they soundly thrashed you. Get over it, roleplay while you have the person ctrl+clicked, and throw your actions in with the actual combat. That is mixing the two elements of the game together. If a person literally requests a strictly RP fight, then maybe that is where the communications should start between players. But I personally think that entirely roleplayed fights are only good for public displays for amusement. Again, if the skill sets exist, it should be made use of or removed.
Whether this something, is good, bad or desirable is a matter of individual judgment, and ultimately of the GM's judgment.
Response: This is basically the only part I agree with you on.
I don't see how roleplaying injuries enhances anyone's character or does anything at all for character portrayal.
Roleplay is about dialogue and situation, making choices the way your character would, cowering before danger, or going into a fight.
I dislike how some people here naturally denounce anything to do with viable combat and use roleplay as a refuge, or perhaps excuse, a handicap, a crutch, to be able to justify a character which is not viable and useful within the system.
Thus, you only see skilled characters who are good at things commenting in favor of speedy recovery, because it brings us to combat faster, and players whose characters are inferior in combat speaking in favor of long term injuries.
My question is, why do players who don't understand making superior combatants - insist on going into combat instead of modifying the character?
I mean, mechanics of the client and roleplay - are not two extremes of the same spectrum. They should go hand in hand. You have to know both how to play the game, and "roleplay" the game.
As far as I understand the universe, Gods watch over Illarion, and Holy Crosses contain power to revive the ghosts. This cyclical nature of illarion population dictates that people don't really die when they die, and the real death occurs only when the spirit is too weak in its desire to return? Which means illarionites cannot be judged against normal realistic human scale in the first place. It's not some "Medieval total warfare". It's a fantasy world where body and spirit always exchange places. Why did nobody think of characters as being able to heal supernaturally fast with the speed of HP bar? Why handicap illarion characters to the level of real life characters? They live in a different world.
Just saying.
Roleplay is about dialogue and situation, making choices the way your character would, cowering before danger, or going into a fight.
I dislike how some people here naturally denounce anything to do with viable combat and use roleplay as a refuge, or perhaps excuse, a handicap, a crutch, to be able to justify a character which is not viable and useful within the system.
Thus, you only see skilled characters who are good at things commenting in favor of speedy recovery, because it brings us to combat faster, and players whose characters are inferior in combat speaking in favor of long term injuries.
My question is, why do players who don't understand making superior combatants - insist on going into combat instead of modifying the character?
I mean, mechanics of the client and roleplay - are not two extremes of the same spectrum. They should go hand in hand. You have to know both how to play the game, and "roleplay" the game.
As far as I understand the universe, Gods watch over Illarion, and Holy Crosses contain power to revive the ghosts. This cyclical nature of illarion population dictates that people don't really die when they die, and the real death occurs only when the spirit is too weak in its desire to return? Which means illarionites cannot be judged against normal realistic human scale in the first place. It's not some "Medieval total warfare". It's a fantasy world where body and spirit always exchange places. Why did nobody think of characters as being able to heal supernaturally fast with the speed of HP bar? Why handicap illarion characters to the level of real life characters? They live in a different world.
Just saying.
Point of insuries, from the gameplay point of view, is exspecially in player versus player battles a point of having those ending.
If everyone runs back to cross and returns 10min later there is a good chance that those battles never really end. And thats really annoying. If those who get beaten stay out of the battle, on both sides equally, there is a good chance that there is a clear result at the end.
So while ignoring all injuries is bad roleplay and all that, and maybe fun for you it will hardly be fun for anyone else, exspecially for your fellow players who play the enemy party of the battle. Playing injuries is all fine if you have a medico around or you like playing so. But keeping out of battle is needed for someone who got beaten. Everything else just makes you a bad looser.
And standing out of battle does not stand against the idea of roleplay. During the direct battle there usually isn't that much roleplay anyway. In my point of view the interesting parts of a battle between players are before and after the battle. Because this is the time were you actually roleplay. And a beaten character who stands near the battle but does not take part in is not much of a problem. And so you still see what is happening.
So as a simple summery. Keep exspecially during those events in your mind that the way you act should be fun for everyone, including your enemies. You play with the other players, not against them. Even if your character fights theirs. Think about how you would feel about if your enemies keep returning after you beaten them.
Nitram
If everyone runs back to cross and returns 10min later there is a good chance that those battles never really end. And thats really annoying. If those who get beaten stay out of the battle, on both sides equally, there is a good chance that there is a clear result at the end.
So while ignoring all injuries is bad roleplay and all that, and maybe fun for you it will hardly be fun for anyone else, exspecially for your fellow players who play the enemy party of the battle. Playing injuries is all fine if you have a medico around or you like playing so. But keeping out of battle is needed for someone who got beaten. Everything else just makes you a bad looser.
And standing out of battle does not stand against the idea of roleplay. During the direct battle there usually isn't that much roleplay anyway. In my point of view the interesting parts of a battle between players are before and after the battle. Because this is the time were you actually roleplay. And a beaten character who stands near the battle but does not take part in is not much of a problem. And so you still see what is happening.
So as a simple summery. Keep exspecially during those events in your mind that the way you act should be fun for everyone, including your enemies. You play with the other players, not against them. Even if your character fights theirs. Think about how you would feel about if your enemies keep returning after you beaten them.
Nitram
Hm, okay. I think I understand what you are saying, Nitram.
So this means, the point of the game is peace and eventual end, not war and battle itself?
So conflicts are not meant to be eternal, but rather conclusive? With ends in someone's permanent victory?
Is war between guilds and organizations not what makes the game go round?
So this means, the point of the game is peace and eventual end, not war and battle itself?
So conflicts are not meant to be eternal, but rather conclusive? With ends in someone's permanent victory?
Is war between guilds and organizations not what makes the game go round?
Winning a war with one battle is pretty rare
Conflicts are nice and all but conflicts do not take part only while a bunch of characters are hitting each other. If you and your allies get beaten it means two things: 1. The others are stronger. 2. You need a different plan.
The battles are not meant to last forever. On going conflicts are not a problem. But a proper played conflicts contains ALOT more then just a few PvP fights. At least it should in a roleplaying game. If you lost a battle you are not meant to give up the conflict. But you should give up the fight itself, so the roleplaying part of the game can take place again. Fighting on another day is not a problem.
Nitram
Conflicts are nice and all but conflicts do not take part only while a bunch of characters are hitting each other. If you and your allies get beaten it means two things: 1. The others are stronger. 2. You need a different plan.
The battles are not meant to last forever. On going conflicts are not a problem. But a proper played conflicts contains ALOT more then just a few PvP fights. At least it should in a roleplaying game. If you lost a battle you are not meant to give up the conflict. But you should give up the fight itself, so the roleplaying part of the game can take place again. Fighting on another day is not a problem.
Nitram
H.Banestone wrote:Hm, okay. I think I understand what you are saying, Nitram.
So this means, the point of the game is peace and eventual end, not war and battle itself?
So conflicts are not meant to be eternal, but rather conclusive? With ends in someone's permanent victory?
Is war between guilds and organizations not what makes the game go round?
No the point of the game is: Roleplay.
You have to act according to your role and according to logical common sense.
So if you fight, and you loose the fight, it is logical that you are pretty messed up after you just received a beating.
The engine tries to support the logic. But its still roleplay, so play.
The fun-for-everyone ideal is truly one that is the grandest and most sought-after concepts known in the gaming world. However, it is absurdly, impossibly impractical. While I do agree that both sides should make some sort of attempt to make the situation entertaining for both sides, I think there is a very important factor to consider: No one can make anyone have fun. A person has to go into a situation with an attitude that allows for them to have fun. People may say, "well I didn't think it was going to be fun, but it turned out to be," but this is subconsciously incorrect I feel. On another level, that person wanted to have fun and so it naturally came to be for them, whether or not it surprised them in a conscious way. If a person is consistently playing a type of character, say, a soldier or warrior, and they not letting themselves have fun even when defeated, then it is that person's responsibility to find out why it isn't fun for them. Perhaps a change of character is in order. Perhaps the soldier's role just is not that specific player's best choice. That player should be looking to options available to him or her in order to make a pleasant experience for him/herself. Not everyone is fit for the same role and people trying to force themselves to fit are never going to have fun. And that should be a 'too bad, so sad' issue.
Why does a "proper" conflict have to be about more than just a few PvP fights? Not everything needs to be intensely intricate. Sometimes a direct physical conflict is all that is needed. Sometimes its not needed at all. But this should be up to players to decide. And those that feel they are not having fun should be looking for a way to have fun, not trying to force others to make them have fun. Many factors can come into play in regards to not waiting to mount another attack, as well. It is not so black and white that there should be definite parameters of when it is okay to immediately counterattack and when it is unacceptable. I think a soft boundary, perhaps, but anything within that boundary should be entirely at the players' discretion. It should not be a meta-game decision for a player to abandon the fight. That decision should belong to a character, when that character reaches its limit or has other in-character reasons for ceasing.
And finally, the system has never seemed, to me, to exist to be subservient to roleplay. If that were true, the system would be an unnecessary waste of everyone's time. (wow, way too many "to"s)
Forgive me if I don't respond any further. I can already tell by my sentence structure that I am sleep deprived.
Why does a "proper" conflict have to be about more than just a few PvP fights? Not everything needs to be intensely intricate. Sometimes a direct physical conflict is all that is needed. Sometimes its not needed at all. But this should be up to players to decide. And those that feel they are not having fun should be looking for a way to have fun, not trying to force others to make them have fun. Many factors can come into play in regards to not waiting to mount another attack, as well. It is not so black and white that there should be definite parameters of when it is okay to immediately counterattack and when it is unacceptable. I think a soft boundary, perhaps, but anything within that boundary should be entirely at the players' discretion. It should not be a meta-game decision for a player to abandon the fight. That decision should belong to a character, when that character reaches its limit or has other in-character reasons for ceasing.
And finally, the system has never seemed, to me, to exist to be subservient to roleplay. If that were true, the system would be an unnecessary waste of everyone's time. (wow, way too many "to"s)
Forgive me if I don't respond any further. I can already tell by my sentence structure that I am sleep deprived.
Last edited by Cain Freemont on Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hm, well, Nitram, I get that, but you also have to consider that battle itself will never be endless. It will eventually be over. Even if a person returns from the cross back into the fight, if he got beaten once, he will get beaten again, because he was weak to begin with, and now he lost skill and got even weaker. So yes, battles will last longer, perhaps a day and a night, but they will eventually end when the losing side is out of skills to sacrifice - that is more realistic than having a one hour fight, and then meet up with your enemies and chat at camp fire to continue battle next time.
About letting other players have fun. I guess it's the same way with the stealing system. It's the victim's job to make sure the thief has fun and gets some items? I just don't understand why. Why should the winner cater to the loser or otherwise?
If I got beaten in a battle, is it my job to make sure the winner had fun? I mean, I may be from a different school of RP, but I was taught that every player makes their own fun. Fun comes from within, from inside. It's our own job to make sure we have fun playing our class and profession. If you only want victories, and do not have fun being in combat, perhaps one should not play a combatant? Perhaps a crafter or a socializer type, who is not fighter/noble/mage all at once?
Players roll combat characters to engage in their favorite activity.
I mean, if I pick to play a soldier, and i get ghosted fair and square, or just blasted to bits with one powerful spell, and i heal up, and the battle is still going, why not go back in and battle again? It's not likely that I will overpower my killer anyway, but the rush is still there to go and try. Just seems like that is in fact the funner of two things. The thing about fun is, someone may partake in battle for an hour, and someone may be blasted in two seconds, and not receive their share of battle fun. I wouldn't blame the player who died instantly for wanting to get back out there and try to get some hits in. Fun kind of comes from within, if you cannot have fun or make yourself have fun, then nobody else will help you, it's nobody else's job. And nobody can make you have fun, because a sore loser will complain about everything, whatever happens. If sore loser dies, he complains about powergaming. If sore loser wins, he complains about enemy returning from the cross.
It's the people who have a relaxed attitude that are easy to please, and they really don't care how long combat lasts.
I don't think Illarion has any fear of becoming hack&slash. It's nowhere near. In hack-slash games players don't even acknowledge each other's existance, they never talk to each other, and just hunt monsters and hoard treasure. I agree that having roleplay that leads to battle is important, I just think that battles should last as long as players want them to last, and it should be both sides call on when to stop, not the outside force of "the gods". I.E. a GM's voice should not be heard in the sky telling people that they have no more strength left. It should be up to players when they decide to give up and acknowledge that the enemy won.
Granted, this will put more heated discussions on the forums, but that's the whole point of GM jobs - make sure those conflicts and flames stay in character, and not OOC.
Limiting such conflicts in fear of forum flame, is like telling to football players they cannot kick the ball because they may touch it with their hand, or telling basketball players not to dribble, because they may foul.
See what I mean? It's like not wanting to deal with the monitoring problem and instead preventing the problem from occuring.
I would suggest a larger moderation staff on forums, and let the players have freedom of choice in how to manage their health.
As for all of you guys out there who play medics, well, craft healing potions. They are very useful. Perhaps the new system will allow for slowed down health regeneration, unless you have medicated yourself? That would be a nice boost to usefulness of doctors!
About letting other players have fun. I guess it's the same way with the stealing system. It's the victim's job to make sure the thief has fun and gets some items? I just don't understand why. Why should the winner cater to the loser or otherwise?
If I got beaten in a battle, is it my job to make sure the winner had fun? I mean, I may be from a different school of RP, but I was taught that every player makes their own fun. Fun comes from within, from inside. It's our own job to make sure we have fun playing our class and profession. If you only want victories, and do not have fun being in combat, perhaps one should not play a combatant? Perhaps a crafter or a socializer type, who is not fighter/noble/mage all at once?
Players roll combat characters to engage in their favorite activity.
I mean, if I pick to play a soldier, and i get ghosted fair and square, or just blasted to bits with one powerful spell, and i heal up, and the battle is still going, why not go back in and battle again? It's not likely that I will overpower my killer anyway, but the rush is still there to go and try. Just seems like that is in fact the funner of two things. The thing about fun is, someone may partake in battle for an hour, and someone may be blasted in two seconds, and not receive their share of battle fun. I wouldn't blame the player who died instantly for wanting to get back out there and try to get some hits in. Fun kind of comes from within, if you cannot have fun or make yourself have fun, then nobody else will help you, it's nobody else's job. And nobody can make you have fun, because a sore loser will complain about everything, whatever happens. If sore loser dies, he complains about powergaming. If sore loser wins, he complains about enemy returning from the cross.
It's the people who have a relaxed attitude that are easy to please, and they really don't care how long combat lasts.
I don't think Illarion has any fear of becoming hack&slash. It's nowhere near. In hack-slash games players don't even acknowledge each other's existance, they never talk to each other, and just hunt monsters and hoard treasure. I agree that having roleplay that leads to battle is important, I just think that battles should last as long as players want them to last, and it should be both sides call on when to stop, not the outside force of "the gods". I.E. a GM's voice should not be heard in the sky telling people that they have no more strength left. It should be up to players when they decide to give up and acknowledge that the enemy won.
Granted, this will put more heated discussions on the forums, but that's the whole point of GM jobs - make sure those conflicts and flames stay in character, and not OOC.
Limiting such conflicts in fear of forum flame, is like telling to football players they cannot kick the ball because they may touch it with their hand, or telling basketball players not to dribble, because they may foul.
See what I mean? It's like not wanting to deal with the monitoring problem and instead preventing the problem from occuring.
I would suggest a larger moderation staff on forums, and let the players have freedom of choice in how to manage their health.
As for all of you guys out there who play medics, well, craft healing potions. They are very useful. Perhaps the new system will allow for slowed down health regeneration, unless you have medicated yourself? That would be a nice boost to usefulness of doctors!