Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.
not a fact. just because healing raises magic resistance, does not logically mean that magic resistance reduces healing. it could very well be a one way influence.Shandariel el Lysanthrai wrote:Your "completly false" is completly false. With my other char my magic resistance got raised through healing spells casted by a friendly mage. This means healing IS affecting the magic resistance aswell. Just not if you cast it on yourself. But when other mages cast it on you.Quote:However, magic resistance also counts for HEALS. So a fighter with magic resistance can't get mage healed in combat = dead.
This is completely false.
Of course that doesnt matter if you got 60 - 80 % magic resistance and the mage casting has 90% or more in the magic school with healing spells. He is strong enough then to still cast on you
He's increasing his own skill as he does so.Velisai wrote:Any mage who trains your resistance with MES PEN deliberately is also shooting his own face, figuratively speaking and it still isn't a "good" way really, even you don't account for the bad RP.
You're classing yourself as a master mage, even though the skill difference between Will and Dom is something in the 25-40 range to Dom's advantage, right (so Will's 60-75 to Dominic's 90-100)? If uncertainty over the outcome of that bout is supposed to mean that the system is balanced, then you're not really making a good case for yourself here, sorry. You also know that Dom is ridiculously well equipped, as he (unlike 95% of warriors) had even drow stuff at his disposal in one point or another, which should be comparable to the stuff that Will uses.AlexRose wrote:Master fighters rape average mages. Master mages rape average fighters. Honestly, I have no idea what master mages vs master fighters is like, because I've never been stupid enough to attack Dominic (since he was strong ). I think there's a good chance that wouldn't end well for me.
Yes, we know that teaching system is completely fucked up (sorry, no lesser term sufficiently describes the state of system where we have to tell new players that it's a waste of time even trying to become a mage, because 95% chance is that you won't be able to do that) both by design and implementation (I feel like pointing finger here at your personal responsibility to the state of affairs by keeping the academy exclusive for a long time), but since this is public knowledge there's no need to really go into this. Also, for the inevitable moaning; Just because you had to wait for years doesn't mean that it should be the case for others and if magic has too much power to be allowed freely to players of this game (as it's sometimes argued), there can hardly be a more obvious proof that the system has fundamental balance issues which should be adressed.Anyway all I have to say to that that magic is not really any overpowered skill anyway, you need to learn magic for a good rl year...and that is if you just play normally and shove in a training session now and than ~and~ you have a teacher who regularly gives you lessons, a figther can be pg'ed in about well maybe a month is what I heard last...to even get all runes you allready need around 3 months for mages, if you powergamed enough skill to get the newer runes that is.
Okay, lets adress equipment dependency:As it stands now a mage is jsut as usefull as his equipment, and that equipment allready costs more than any figther will spend on his equipment...2 serinjahs and a suit of armor aren't even as expensiv as one icebird..or wand..or mastermage robe, furthermore a figther is able to kill things off continously with a greater income than any mage, who will first be stuck with killing small time monster till they might be able to hunt reds. But aside from that there aren't really mages who can live over a figther attacking them, I just saw it a few times that a figther was allready in close combat, when a mage could turn the tides in the last minute, basicly a mage in close combat is death, not to mention that the new "burnout syndrom" burns away mana like nothing as soon as you cast fast and don't take any breaks.
There are several problems with warriors gaining magic resistance, main one being that while mage requires a mere 3 stats for his casting (Int, Wil & Ess) a warrior presently needs twice as many stats (Int, Str, Agi, Con, Dex & Per) which means that a warrior typically has very few stat points to blow on will (considering how a lot of the top warriors were built anyway, spending around 6-8 points on will would probably qualify them as warlocks), which is the stat used by magic resistance. When facing a mage with obviously higher offensive capability, the low essence of a warrior means that his MR will help diddly squat against the mage even if he managed to enlist the help of a mage to PG his MR for months to an end. This means that unlike with melee, warriors have only an option to train MR realistically if they can get a mage to shoot at them, and this requires huge amount of time for no real tangible benefit due to limited WP vs. high ESS of a mage. So, you're better off becoming a warlock or something.Ultimately, it seems to me the "mage overpowered" philosophy may be due to 1. bugs mentioned in the system which may be solved with the VBU 2. how fast the reflexes are of the PO .. allowing more time between spells seems to be an answer possibly? 3. Mages who due to stats are suppose not to compete with fighters ... still don't but DO have some fighter ability...possibly giving a max of 50% as Kevin suggested would be helpful, yet if a script was in place to not allow magic a certain time after steel is used would this also be an alternative? Weakening or nerfing the spells yet again seems to me the wrong answer as mages already require so much ig time to even achieve the runes...and much more to PG them. It always seemed like a conundrum to me that roleplay was considered important for a mage char yet the PG requirements were more then most other chars....at least IMO.
As an aside... with mages having some fighter stats, isn't it likely to imagine some fighters with magic resis?
I can't agree more. Thats why I am for a balancing of magic powers, and not for a one sided change like what Nalzaxx and Matt suggested. With their change it would suck even bigger for beginning mages since it will be much harder for them. And the ubermages we got now will still be able to kill anything with ease. They will simply take their high level amethyst wands and reduce casting time from 4 seconds to 2, dodge any melee attack comming in and killing anything off. While laughing about those "noob" mages who are not as mighty as them after the change cause "they simply dont know how to play a mage right".More focus should be on making the learning more accessible, fun, inclusive and increasing the power and usefulness of beginner mages, rather than soothing the guys who have patience to PG themselves to the top by allowing them to own everything in sight. Balance works much better and results a much more enjoyable and fun game for everyone (both prospective mages and non-mages) than a shitty little elitist club which requires you to kiss ass for months and then PG your brains out to be qualified to own people (we all know that whatever shit that is supposed to ensure that "mages are good mature roleplayers blablablaa" doesn't make them any less susceptible to abuses than any other group of long-time players...).
Yes because it will be much harder for everyone. Which is the point. Currently it is far too easy for mages to destroy everything and there needs to be some way in which fighters can balance the odds. Putting aside a huge recalculation, whicht the VBU will provide anyway, doubling the casting times is a simple easy change that will curb mages destructive power. Im not saying its the best change in the world, or that it will completely fix the magic system. Just that it is a quick change that will make things better for the coming months before the VBU. Furthermore, Nitram has already once introduced much longer casting times, (about 3x iirc), however it was considered far too extreme and led to the casting times we have now.Shandariel el Lysanthrai wrote: I can't agree more. Thats why I am for a balancing of magic powers, and not for a one sided change like what Nalzaxx and Matt suggested. With their change it would suck even bigger for beginning mages since it will be much harder for them.
What the hell? Seriously, where do you get off. Firstly, no-one is rolling in magical amethysts like you seem to suggest. They take about 100 demon mages to collect just one. Secondly, they don't reduce casting times very much at all. Even a level 3 gem takes 9 dropped amethysts to make. There is no intention to 'laugh' at noob mages. What gives you the right to even suggest such behaviour from us. Please don't spout this inflammatory nonsense when you evidently have no idea what you are talking about.And the ubermages we got now will still be able to kill anything with ease. They will simply take their high level amethyst wands and reduce casting time from 4 seconds to 2, dodge any melee attack comming in and killing anything off. While laughing about those "noob" mages who are not as mighty as them after the change cause "they simply dont know how to play a mage right".
Again this is nothing but insulting and complete nonsense. I would like to remind everyone that the original Samantha Meryadeles was a monstrosity of powergaming that shames even our best efforts. Your insistence that magic is all about skill and scripts just proves further your lack of experience and knowledge in the area.Magic is for tactician? Pff...it is for those powergaming all skills to yellow and knowing the scripts too. It shouldn't be surprising that most of those uberstrong mages with highend skills and all belong to players who also have a better insight into scripts. Or who have good buddies telling them about scripts.
This will come with the VBU.Make magic finally equal to melee so that noone pwns the other without a fair chance on the same skillevel. Make it easier to be taught and achiefed, restrict the maximum strength of spells to skills in the 90 % area and give mages finally more spells which have nothing to do with killing things. So that they can be also more then just Damagedealer. Currently the usefullness and strength of a mage is determined by his ability to kill of as good as possible npc and player chars. Nothing else. Well...also by summoning portals...and that was it.
I have never been a scripter, nor have I seen the scripts for the spells. Everything I have learnt about playing a mage I have learnt by playing a mage. Now stop with this nonsense and try to contribute something constructive other than insults and slander. I think it should be clear to anyone that it is not me and Matt that are arguing for our own vested interests.and also make it more fair to those who don't know the scripts too. Currently the game has so many secrets and unknown stuff that anyone who is a scripter and knows the scripts gets a huge advantage over the other players cause they "don't know how to play right".
The current Samantha IS the original Samantha. I still have the same skills I got back before I went into break. My highest skill is around 80 % and my second highest around 60 %, probably. Everything else is under 30 - 40 % or not even 10 %.I would like to remind everyone that the original Samantha Meryadeles was a monstrosity of powergaming that shames even our best efforts.
Are you serious?...and give mages finally more spells which have nothing to do with killing things. So that they can be also more then just Damagedealer. Currently the usefullness and strength of a mage is determined by his ability to kill of as good as possible npc and player chars. Nothing else. Well...also by summoning portals...and that was it.
Let me address this issue here one and for all, I haven't done anything to make the academy exclusiv for anyone, my char merely reacted how any sane, or as sane as Pellandria can be, person would have reacted, as I said countless times before I did not even invent the council in any way and jsut joined, but the idea was great, the academy finally took shape and we tried to do soemthing with it instead of just being an annoying bulding around a free teaching room, furthermore blaming me personally for the leaving of players is just ridicoulus, its not my fault that people leave the game or play on and off again, if I'm the last one standing in the academy, than I can't teach a thousand people a week, you should point your fingers at those who went away from the game for different reasons, not the ones who stayed and tried to kept iit alive.Mr. Cromwell wrote: Yes, we know that teaching system is completely fucked up (sorry, no lesser term sufficiently describes the state of system where we have to tell new players that it's a waste of time even trying to become a mage, because 95% chance is that you won't be able to do that) both by design and implementation (I feel like pointing finger here at your personal responsibility to the state of affairs by keeping the academy exclusive for a long time), but since this is public knowledge there's no need to really go into this.
For the countless balance problem I still don't get why people continously discuss here anyway, the staff won't change a thing anyway in a good 6 months, untill the VBU is out,so really any discussion now is jsut useless, furthermore the past has prooven that the staff does not really listen to the players anyway when it comes to the mage system.Mr. Cromwell wrote: Also, for the inevitable moaning; Just because you had to wait for years doesn't mean that it should be the case for others and if magic has too much power to be allowed freely to players of this game (as it's sometimes argued), there can hardly be a more obvious proof that the system has fundamental balance issues which should be adressed.
I'm always confused...do you ever played a mage as it stands, or do you just look at people and say "ahh yeah hmm I guess it ~is~ so" because at times it seems you have a pretty good insight of the system...at others you complettly take of.
Okay, lets adress equipment dependency:
A naked fight between a warrior and a mage; which one wins? Yeah..
While mage power is amplified by equipment, warriors need good stuff to do anything at all.
Let me address this first and than we talk about the other stuff. Red's are incredibly vulnerable to magic, reds take normally jsut three qwan spells to be killed, while normal sceletons even take a good 6 or 7 Shots to be downed, so taking the reds here is a rather good move from you, because you probably know how easy they are to down, golems on the other hand are mostly unbeatable by one mage alone and we can't forget the fact that you probably slash all those monsters with swords isntead of taking them out with hammers or staffs, of course a figther will take longer to kill those monsters, but a figther will not need to wait for ages, be carefull about mana consumption and probably running away like a sissy as soon as you see two monsters coming your way.It takes several minutes for my char to kill a single red, after which he must rest (or blow money on potions) to recover his health. Fighting golems (which are strongest monsters my character has any hope of handling) takes even longer. All of this consumes the equipment of my character, and brings him down in health. Moreover, since my character (like most warriors) is owned by NPC mages just as well as PC mages, he cannot really wander to train into places where there are actually casting NPCs (why do you think everyone camps the red at the graveyard?)... meaning that his training locations are rather limited. Moreover, I personally have seen William elderberry blast away 2 red warriors and 1 red mage, before my char was even able to walk to the first one.
Treasure maps are "easy" for any mages out of several reasons..first of al you can prepare, a flame or stonecage can limit the monsters that attack you, a portal out allows you to get off the grid and slowly advance to kill the mosnters one by one, in this case the mage really should take carefull planning, if you got someone who is jsut jumping in a heap of monsters than sadly you can't play a figther at all nor do you have a good mage supporter.Oh and furthermore I have seen chars beating up 5 goolems almsot at the same time...never saw a mage killing any monster that went up to them in a group of three, even the lowest enemys, mummys, could kill a mage if he has no figthing skills at all and gets butchered by 3 fast claw attacks.Also, seeing how Nalzaxx's char (for all intents and purposes) solo'ed a pirate treasure map (2 reds, a ghost and 2 skeleton mages) which resulted in Matt's PG'd warrior being insta-killed and my char driven off to forest, I call bullshit on that. Mana limits mage's ability to kill monsters indeed, but to no more than health bar and health regeneration limit the fighter's chance of killing anything.
Mages have no advantage in fleeing over warriors anyway, they have a disadvantage even, because their three stats essence, will and int, limits them from placing good overall stats anywhere else, the selfteleportation is slower in the open field than jsut walking to that place, of course only when you are not encumbered, of course another advantage is that a mage can blast its enemys into pieces, before they even reach them.What's difference is that mages can actually fight in places where warriors can't go alone, simply because a red mage kills you in about 10 seconds (who are the ones grinding red mages for amethysts anyway? yeah. Who are the reason that magic damage had to be disabled from certain monsters altogether and spawns turned off because these ubermonsters were farmed ridiculously?). Warriors have no hope of fleeing from those NPCs especially in the open unless you're a mage.
The healing is nerfed down to almost uselessness, unless you use the better spell to heal you, a normal mes pen will barely keep you alive, unless spawned in a fast rate, which of course burns trougth your mana in a fast rate, furthermore Mana does not replesh or jsut on a very slow level if your food bar sinks under 50% and mana repleshes slower than health so unless you have the advantage to beat up one mosnter at a time you will b in trouble, no matter how awesome your skilsl are.Warriors tend to die a lot more often, not the least because a mage can ultimately heal himself in seconds opposed to a disengaging warrior who (while being shot at or beaten) has to stop, arrange the freaking inventory and then remain motionless or lose the potion.
True the Mage equipment is not really under much stress, because as we pointed out a mage normally kills its enemy before they reach him, but that also means that there are no mosnter drops to replesh their stocks, ligthning blades and even normal useable armors are drop from monsters, atleast high end monsters, more than enough times and because the serinjahs are still the best anyways you can just resupply yourself at the spawnpoint.Moreover, there's not really wear on mage equipment to the same degree as warrior equipment, and due to healing, teleporting, walls and uber damage, are a lot less likely to lose these items anyway.
You know the real reason why...because changing the system would do ~nothing~ against them, they probably have extremly powergamed chars anyway and changing the system to make the mages weaker will result in everyone else having to adjust to those changes, everyone except them, because their chars are simply to strong anyway and they will easiyl overcome those changes.I mean, why do you think Matt and Nalzaxx are saying that magic is overpowered? These guys probably know more about how combat actually works in the game than the people who write the code do ,
Velisai wrote: Mages...
are the best damage dealers.
are far better healers than druids.
Wrong, healing potions can be sipped during figthing without any interruption, healing magic either is so low that its useless, because mage take massiv damage due to the lack of armor, or its casting time is so long that it would probably be killed off, unless you plan ahead and shove a healing in two strikes
are the most mobile class of chars.
Mages have no statpoints they can spend on agility or strength, with the new updates the walking speed is just as fast and even faster on open field than teleporting
can access areas no other char can get to.
Which would be uhh yeah useless small island with nothing in it, they can teleport to use shortcuts, thats true
can break into any buildings with windows. (makes them better thieves than actual thieves)
Not true, you need to *see* inside of the buildings, which is just not given, because most buildings have no windows at the north side, so unless the roof peels away you have no chance to get inside..and the only building I ever got inside to is the farmers union..
can kill you from a distance and from the inside of buildings.
Wrong aswell, you still need to see your target...which means you have to be standing close to a window, that magic is a long rage weapon is a give away..
can paralyse, tie you up and drag you off. (only non violent way of dealing with criminals etc.)
Paralyse is something like 5 seconds...so unless you stand close to your victim you have no chance unless you blow another para on him, which takes some seconds to cast again and of course depending how fast you switch between wand and rope your victim will be free again, not to mention that a two paralyses in such an short order normally kill about 60% of your mana
do not need food.
We actually need more food than a figther or crafter, furthermore food spells are either useless or they are taking a good chunk of your mana aaaand they have an incredibly high cooldown,so making a spell after a food spell normally results in huge loss of mana aswell.
can summon animals and undead.
Which, if aggresief, normally turn immedeatly against their caster and are mana expensiv..and don't respawn...
speak the language of the gods.
can blow people over uncrossable terrain.
True, but thats mostly limited to 4 or 5 tiles anyway
can fetch items via telekinesis, which is mostly useless, but still awesome. (may be used for thievery too)
True aswell, but the spell is rather long and unless you prepare for it and have it selected the others will have traded or picked up the item, before you have any chance to call it
can do just about EVERYTHING via ritual magic.
Ritual magic is very seldom used and mostly means the mage takes huge risks and most of the ritual magic just changes rp facts, nothing engine related
are often involved in all kinds of quests just because of their connection to the supernatural.
No thats mostly because many mage chars ae money grabbing bastards and hope they get something out of the quest
have the richest background to draw upon for roleplay.
Uhm we all have the same background, unless you mean the five theories of magic
can roleplay various abilities, which runes don't cover.
I have seen druids having the ability to change into a wolf ~ages~ before we had any potions to do that, if you do not think up logical abilities for your char than its barely our fault is it now
Now compare that list with a crafter's. Oh, there's no list, because they can only craft a few items and don't even sell anything worthwhile until they are masters.
Wow you must be kidding me a ~few~ items, more like almost every item in the game, hell they can even produce elemental wands that go for a good 50-60 coins...of course the pure elements you use for them are more expensiv
Fighters? Can kill, but not as well as mages and have to raise at least four skills to higher levels than them, period.
Figthers can kill crowds of enemys better, a mage facing more than two or three enemys is, almost always, lost, just look at the two inquisitors, they hacked and slashed their way to all the big figther and mages we had
Priests, bards, thieves have no engine abilities at all.
Let's imagine a fanatic lizard magehunter. His attributes would be the following:Stop creating warriors with the absolute minimums in the magic use attributes
A potion that both heals completely and neutralises poison, is one of the least complicated to make, but the required herbs are not always available and it costs 125 copper + herbs to produce. I cba selling them for less than 4 silver a piece, because gathering the herbs and then sorting out the useless ones(clickfest) is making my hand ache and is so boring, I can barely bring up the motivation to supply my own char's need. Also in the time it takes to gather all the needed supplies, I can make more coin in the graveyard, killing demon skeletons. Or I could just fish for maps which is the most lucrative job in the game, requires a minimal amount of clicking and only one tool.Warrior B reaches for his healing potion (which aren't interrupted by magic blasts) only to find that because he hadn't thought ahead that there might be a random encounter with a mage and thus didn't petition one of the few and far between druids (our population is small, deal with it) to make him a bundle of ass expensive potions...he's screwed. So yes, items that help with health regeneration being more easily obtainable would be nice.
Velisai wrote: Let's imagine a fanatic lizard magehunter. His attributes would be the following:
Intelligence (8 )
Now this char would fight without weapons, to be most efficient in the task he's made for. That would mean he can, after a very long and excruciatingly painful time of PGing beat about 90% of the mages without much trouble, but chars like Verdazar would probably still beat him 9 out 10 times. Then there is the fact, that in Illarion we very often have groups of mages, which means he would fail against say Temple or Bearers every single time. Okay, you can create a group of his kind to counter this, but that would be all such chars could ever hope to do with the engine, slaughter mages. Against a real fighter they'd be barely useful.
To be able to do just that alone, you'll need to powergame, obviously on monsters, since mages wouldn't help you gain the ability to kill them later. Skilling the resistance to any respectable level that way will take a year of intensive PG. Who in their right minds would want to do that?
Now let's change stats a little bit to this:
Now you have stats for a decent battlemage, who after about the same PG time can own anyone, heal himself, teleport and so on.
This is why fighters don't choose the magekiller class.
Now I have really drifted off, so on topic I can say that especially after the opening of the academy, a natural teaching room would solve nothing at all.
A. Dom never used his drow stuff.Mr. Cromwell wrote:You're classing yourself as a master mage, even though the skill difference between Will and Dom is something in the 25-40 range to Dom's advantage, right (so Will's 60-75 to Dominic's 90-100)? If uncertainty over the outcome of that bout is supposed to mean that the system is balanced, then you're not really making a good case for yourself here, sorry. You also know that Dom is ridiculously well equipped, as he (unlike 95% of warriors) had even drow stuff at his disposal in one point or another, which should be comparable to the stuff that Will uses.
Exactly, and we're going to lose if mages are nerfed. You aren't.Retlak wrote:I'm going to win regardless the outcome.