Natural Magic Room

Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.

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Post by Tanistian_Kanea » Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:09 am

Natural Magic Room

This should be one anyone with a good memory is familar with. The idea (my idea)is a slight tweak to helping the magic system, and that was to create an area on the map that would function as a teaching room that would be accesable by everybody and controlable by no one.

reasons why to do this.
1.fast
2.easy
3. keeps a student teacher relationship (which i think is a really good idea and i love the rp it creates)
4. it can actually help. i know there are a few teachers that do not teach because they do not want to be affiliated with the current schools/guilds. more teachers = more mages.
5. it can ONLY make things better. if it doesn't work we are back where we started.

here: you can read up on it yourself: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... &start=120

now what bugs me is why this simple little itsy bitsy teeny weeny tiny flea speck of a change takes months to put ig. que wait for VBU.... drumrolll.....drrrrrrr....."wait for VBU"-there it is!. let me make my befuldement clear. what about a map change requires the VBU as well.

I clearly remember various map changes taking place for... oh idk... the prince take over. there was some map changing there.... yeah... lots of it... i remember the farmer unions fields getting bigger - map change! the castle in varshikar was blocked off, than opened up again. -map change! hellbriar (way back) - map change! nordmark buildings - map change! who knows what other changes have taken place without a VBU to hold their hand along the way.

oh, i do realise i am be patronizing. in fact, it was deliberate. the facts seem to tell me the gm's/devs/irdc (i really don't care) respond quickest to patronizing posts, because they get all defencive over their little excuses not to. why ever little "t" as to be crossed with a perfect little - and every "i" needs the cutest little <3 over top... it makes me sick.... it's great that you want to completely redo the game, practicaly from the ground up.

but there are problems ig that need to be solved and they can be potentially be solved quickly and easily long before the VBU. so stop putting this nightmare on a freakin pedistal and do some small stuff. like this room. it gives players the feeling that something is actually being done. i know when i have played other games i liked seeing that changes where made. it made me feel like the staff ACTUALLY CARED. instead of this oh just wait stuff we get here.

right now our ideas are ignored (proposal board), when all that needs to be done is said, this is a good idea, it will be added to the to do list. THAT makes people feel good. not only do our ideas get ignored but for i can't remember how long now any responce we have gotten for why something is not being done is because of the vbu.

it makes it seem like the staff are hiding behind this curtain of secrets. which is another thing that annoys me. why illarion ev visable to those who cannot even view what is written there. every now and then i see a new post has been made there and i think, what are they doing they don't want us to see. like the deletion of the races for instance. how long has it been since that was decided? my guess? about the same time the vbu was started. as soon as paperdolling was started they would have known that there would not be any sprites for these races. the players of these races could have had months longer to create something special to send their characters off.

as for why we aren't aloud to have them change to another race? because you don't think we could handle it? this seems like a parent telling the kids no because they might, MIGHT, get hurt. sometimes kids needs to get hurt. and the diference in these situations? unlike parents the staff do not know the players well enough to know what they are and are not capable of. their lack of site to see the worst that could come of this is a little bad role play, which they could easily go and say, ok this isn't working, have the characters go "off on somequest to find their new selves" and be done with it. but instead they will not even give us the oportunity to try what would be some very unique, fun and exciting role play.

role play, it's gone to pieces. the thread "whose rp did you like today" is like some bad joke. when 90% of the posts on their are just friends doing what i call "being pleasant" they are handed something mediocre but because it came from their friend all of a sudden it's a freakin mona lisa. the atmosphere of the world in illarion now saps my will to live. everyone is just out to make money and get rich. unless it's changed dramatically since i logged in at least half the people are only on to make money.

i've stopped logging on because 5 times out of 6 i only find people interested in what they are doing. what are they doing? making x item... over and over again. for what? some digital coin that is only 1' and 0's and can be gone or gained with a couple punches of a key? how horribly materialistic that is.

yet you have the opportunity to get real memorys, laughter and joy from creating a story with other people, that's what role play is.

weaknesses are as much what make a character who they are as their strengths. oh... that super hero rp when the guy hears someone coming in a crowd from behind and catches him stealing someone else's purse is cow droppings. comment all you like and do whatever you want to me.

i am getting tired of games in general and this is losing all taste for me. if you really don't like this you will just lock it, like just like putting it in a closet, or drinking booze to make the problem go away instead of fixing them. my memory mut be threw rose colored glasses because i remember a comunity that helped people, and was actually open to other's opinions. now it is 2 in the morning where i am and i am heading to bed.

Tanistian

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Post by RayJ » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:01 am

You drink a lot don't you? HaHa, its OK.
Actually your rant expressed my thoughts exactly. Why must every broken thing in this game need to wait for the VBU? I joined this game with the wishes of being a mage, instead I play three other types i don't like. I even started a character for the future, hoping the VBU would allow me to be a mage finally. After a month of just skilling for the future, he was deleted for a name violation that I dont even understand, with no expanation. So now I just play a character I am not that fond of waiting in anticipation for the VBU.
Well there it is, then again I drink to much. :)

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Post by Pellandria » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:13 am

I do n't read oer it, because slowly it gets annoying, you talk about stuff that is so irrelevant and so wrong in so many ways, that its not even funny anymore to shoot you down.

So instead of tearing your post apart sentence by sentence I will just tell the facts and how useless this free teaching room is.

We have currently ~one~ magican who teaches away from the academy or university ONE teacher, and this ONE teacher hasn't got the skills/attributs, don't quote me on that but I believe so, to give the teaching rune to anyone else, which means that the mapchange would only allow ONE teacher to teach faster, knowing his requierments to students he will not teach anyone either, so you would still probably not getting any teaching from him.

And do not even assume that people magicly come back to teach more people, just back than people argued with this to have a reason for not playing anymore, magic teaching is nothing funny, its mostly annoying and it repeats itself...because basicly no matter how or where you teach theory magic..its still kind of the same theory, so if those "freelancers" are to lazy to click the mousebutton a few more times, than I honestly doubt they will come back with flyingflags to teach more poeple.

Bottom line- natural teaching room just helps one teacher, it makes things not easyier, because it would be the same as any other teaching room and it certaintly wouldn't be faster, because one had to find a magical enchanted place to place the teaching room, because I would guess that those who take magic more seriously would be quiet pissed off if the rules are bend again and again, it allready pissed me off that someone just relocated the yellow cross on the libary...magic does not ~work~ this way, because the yellow cross is just something like a signpost..its not the one thing that heals everyone

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Post by AlexRose » Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:23 pm

If people ask me to teach them I say "I can't be bothered with the academy doors". Always having to unlock the first one, walk to the room, try and find the password which is in German or something and I'll never remember, walk some more, maybe get caught in cobwebs, teach, walk back, walk all the way back to unlock the door again so I can walk outside and shut the door and lock it so I can put my key back in the depot.

If someone asked me to teach them and all I had to do was cast a portal spell and it put me in a teaching room, I would be like "Sure, why not?"

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Post by HolyKnight » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:14 pm

Or you could sacrifice some of your own skill to teach :twisted: :P

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Post by AlexRose » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:25 pm

I did that a few times.

Another problem is that I don't have skill high enough to teach lots of runes (despite being able to cast all spells at maximum capacity due to my equipment).

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Post by Llama » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:48 pm

The problem with the magic system teaching currently isn't that there aren't enough rooms.

Its that IN ORDER TO TEACH, I NEED TO POWERGAME A LOT.

That's the reason.

Moreover, there is an even bigger, underlying cause - namely "When you depend on SINGLE INDIVIDUALS, there is a good chance that you'll get let down"

Think of all the mages who used to teach, and think how many are still around, and active.

I mean, the academy's '5 person council' was reduced to '1 person and a gm'

Now as part of the VBU, there are plans to change the magic teaching so its less irritating, more people can get in on this, and you don't need to suffer to get a teacher.

*hands him a queue ticket*

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Post by Fooser » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:32 pm

Weaken magic a little and let everyone be a mage

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Post by AlexRose » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:34 pm

This is Mr "founded the council". It was the worst decision in the history of illarion magic to do that. Too many people were learning magic so you had to establish locks and ridiculous rules and now noone learns magic. The BHONA caps, skill loss and skill requirements haven't helped either. I don't see how people can complain about a system and then make it considerably worse.

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Post by Pyrrho » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:37 pm

Let them have magic!

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Post by Kyre » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:48 pm

Application based instead of severe limiting by rules?

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Post by Shandariel el Lysanthrai » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:59 pm

Could it be that the skillloss at teaching magic runes without a room is just temporarely? cause i did teach a rune, and soon after, either through use of the magic school or logging in and out again, the former skill level was back.

if thats true it means teaching rooms arent needed for mage teachers


and we dont need restrictions on magic, or making it weaker so that everyone can cast it. we need a better balancing. currently anyone having the runes can cast the most powerfull spells pretty early. even with a turqouise skill colour you can cast a spell at its maximum now...or you can cast a portal spell with just nearly green skill. that means that there wont be much difference between nearly green skill and deep yellow skill beside breaking someones magic resistance skill.
I would say keep the spells powers, but spread them more over the skill bar. the most powerfull damage spell should be just at his highest power once someone reaches yellow skills in its school...or like 85-90 %. There is no need to give someone maximum spell strength already at 40 or 50 %. No wonder everyone sees mages as too powerfull. same with portals...everyone can cast them...before my break you needed yellow skills to be able to cast a portal spell.

Somehow the requirments to cast spells at their maximum strength got lowered alot. through this even the less experienced mages with the runes appear to be uber killer machines

compare that with fighting skills. anyone with bright yellow dodge, tactics and parry/weapon skill is a killer machine. And he looks uber power to anyone else.

Also...anyone with magic resistance is pretty well equiped against magic. if magic spellpowers get lowered even for those with high skills they wont stand a chance against those with magc resistance. Even yet a magic resistance equal to a offensive spell skill negates that one completly, instead of just weaken it.

All that we miss is more balancing. if you doctor now around and make spells weaker, and change nothing else, you will just cause more inbalancing for the whole system

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Post by Alsaya » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:34 pm

Okay, I see this turns into the 1000. Magic discussion this board has seen. To make it short:

Yes, the teaching system is flawed.
Yes, we think about changing it but have not had the best idea to do it yet.
No, we haven't started on it obviously.
It might be included in the, by Tanistan so hated, VBU, but don't count on it.

I think that's enough on this topic now.

Now let me proceed to the other things you wrote Tanistan:

Creating a teaching room isn't only a map change. I could build you something nice, which looks like a teaching room but it wouldn't be one. There are still some nasty things called scripts needed and since our devs are busy with other imho more important stuff, I doubt they would do it.

During the Prince attack, we did change the map and it took most of Zaks time. Because he had to place every new item separately, delete every item separately, change every tile separately. And to make it worse, those gm made changes are only temporary. So with the next map reload, all those changes gms made and didn't tell Lennier about, are lost for good. So we tend to only make temporary changes.

Of course we could build them with the map editor, but then we face the same problems as the players right now. Lennier is not around to put them up.

Next Topic: Special races

We of course knew about it longer than the players, but to say now that the players have no time now to play something cool is wrong. You make it sound is if the VBU comes out next week or month. In fact the VBU needs more time, I think Pharse posted something about August 2010. This is in 8 month, so I suppose that's plenty of time to think of something.
I also do not know where you heard that those chars will be 'killed' I honestly haven't made up my mind about it and I fail to see any decision on the gm boards, so I suppose there is no official ruling yet. We will think of ways to do it, when the time of the VBU is near, but not now.

I hope that cleared some things up.

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Post by Karl » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:42 pm

Take off the skills limit for runes and teachers will start teaching again, seriously.

I want to roleplay, I don't want to wait to have to wait for my students to skill up until they can learn the runes and so on. It's just annoying.

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Post by AlexRose » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:51 pm

The attitude "just wait" is a terrible one. You can temporarily improve the situation by removing the skill limit and skill loss.

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Post by Nitram » Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:19 am

You should get one thing. And the sooner you get it the better it will be.

The Illarion you are playing currently is not maintained in matters of technical development. That means there won't be any changes at the technical things of the game until the large update. It does not matter how much afford the changes would take, it does not matter how important you rate those issues. No changes to the current state.

We are focusing every single minute we are investing to the development of Illarion to the large update. If you can get along with this or not does not matter. Thats the way it goes.

Nitram

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Post by Kevin Lightdot » Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:20 am

AlexRose wrote:The attitude "just wait" is a terrible one. You can temporarily improve the situation by removing the skill limit and skill loss.
Especially with waiting times in Illarion running from months to years. :P

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Post by H.Banestone » Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:50 am

Well since we're discussing magic and since proposals board is closed, here's my observations.

Currently magic system is such a big deal that it's apparently only trusted to favorite players and they are granted special permission to teach it, and the moment someone goes irresponsible with their spells, they are taken away.
A completely wrong way to do magic from a gamemaster/developer point of view.

I looked at the reasons why you guys are doing it, and realized why. No wonder you guys are afraid to trust magic to new players!
You made magic insanely much too powerful and unbalanced to even be playable.

A person can indefinitely paralyze another person.
A person can block doors with long lasting magic walls.
A person can instantly teleport virtually anywhere with magic.

What is the point of having such powerful magic if you will only restrict it to favorites, who roleplay in accordance to a behavior template you agree on? With new update, make magic public, make anyone be able to learn it independently, provided stats are right for it, and make it less absolute. Make magic less powerful. Right now it seems absolutely powerful.

For example, a magic wall. It is an art of summoning stone from the ground. The wall should be an attackable target, being able to be destroyed with mundane force of sword and fist. This way no infinite wall-ins. Right now only a mage can dispel a wall. That makes no sense. Walls are physical, they should be target-able. And if you have a reason to not do this because of lore, that is a poor reason. Lore should not be used to justify a flaw in concept planning of the game, it should be a reason to make things more possible, not more impossible.

A paralyze - definitely should not be infinite. Targets should be granted paralysis immunity for 3x times the duration as soon as it wears out.
You paralyze me for 5 seconds. I am frozen for 5 seconds. Then I am immune to paralysis for 15 seconds.
You paralyze me for 3 seconds. I am frozen for 3, then immune for 9. etc.

Teleportation - should take a longer time and be interruptable, and should not be an instant cast spell.

Another very powerful spell you guys included is self-walling. In a game that uses neighbor-cell ctrl-click, that is extremely powerful combined with AOE spells. A mage should not be able to surround themselves with a wall of unbreakable protection and be able to deal damage to the radius around it. If you guys want to make a safety spell for mages to easily escape danger, implement a summon spell.
Summons are much better than rings of indestructable walls. Here is how summon works. You need a buddy mage to work in team.
It takes two mages - one who summons, one who is being summoned. The summoner casts the spell, types in the target's name. The target gets a message "Johnny the Mage attempts to summon you", you can hit #yes or #no, and you get summoned to the location of the summoner, where ever they are.

Summoning should drain the entire mana bar, to prevent from summon spamming and griefing people trying to talk.

You can expand this spell to be able to summon non mages as well.

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Post by Alsaya » Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:56 am

We know it is unbalanced and we are already working on it.

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Post by H.Banestone » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:45 am

Do you like the suggestions? I know you know it's unbalanced, I'm looking more for feedback.

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Post by AlexRose » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:58 pm

H.Banestone wrote:Currently magic system is such a big deal that it's apparently only trusted to favorite players and they are granted special permission to teach it, and the moment someone goes irresponsible with their spells, they are taken away. - I've seen loads of mages who the staff hate (probably myself included) and they've not had their magic taken away from them at all.

A person can indefinitely paralyze another person. - With MUCH skill after years of play and at the cost of mana (you can only cast it a few times!)
A person can block doors with long lasting magic walls. - So write an ig notice on the board saying that person is a miscreant. Probably at the point where they're getting high jinks from putting walls over doors they're susceptible to getting pwnt.
A person can instantly teleport virtually anywhere with magic. - Again, with a very high level of skill. If you had magic, you would know how there's actually not that many benefits at all. Everyone can attack and summoning monsters is mainly useless, so the only thing even master mages mages really have as a benefit are teleportation, summoning static objects and healing.


A paralyze - definitely should not be infinite. Targets should be granted paralysis immunity for 3x times the duration as soon as it wears out.
You paralyze me for 5 seconds. I am frozen for 5 seconds. Then I am immune to paralysis for 15 seconds.
You paralyze me for 3 seconds. I am frozen for 3, then immune for 9. etc.

Teleportation - should take a longer time and be interruptable, and should not be an instant cast spell.

Another very powerful spell you guys included is self-walling. In a game that uses neighbor-cell ctrl-click, that is extremely powerful combined with AOE spells. A mage should not be able to surround themselves with a wall of unbreakable protection and be able to deal damage to the radius around it. If you guys want to make a safety spell for mages to easily escape danger, implement a summon spell. - You cannot cast where you can't see. If you summon walls around yourself you CANNOT damage ANYONE outside the circle. End of.

Summons are much better than rings of indestructable walls. Here is how summon works. You need a buddy mage to work in team.
It takes two mages - one who summons, one who is being summoned. The summoner casts the spell, types in the target's name. The target gets a message "Johnny the Mage attempts to summon you", you can hit #yes or #no, and you get summoned to the location of the summoner, where ever they are. - See one minute you say stuff's overpowered, but that is like.. mad. That's a GM command.
Added comments after it.

Y'know, everyone joins this game and thinks magic is overpowered. When you actually get it you realise that, other than showing off your magic to people, magic doesn't actually enable you to do that much at all. It saves you money on portal books (which you'll probably end up paying back much more on on mana potions). It enables you to attack from a distance, although if someone gets close to you you're screwed. Other than that.. magic isn't really that useful to have other than for entertaining yourself.
Last edited by AlexRose on Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Alsaya » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:12 pm

To be honest I didn't really bother to read the whole post. Because some things are already worked on and to be honest, the mages only seem so overpowered because most monsters are weak, as well at the fighters and I think we do not need to mention the archers who barely can kill something right now. Since we balance the monster stats as well as a fighting system (no surprise here) everything will be balanced out and in the end the mages will not be as 'overpowered' as they seem to be now.

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:42 pm

Thanks for the information Alsaya, will be interesting to find out more in the update. Since this topic seems to be revived and going in a different direction ( the Academy now open to mages) *g* ......

Playing a mage and fighters along with a crafter IMHO mages aren't overpowered being mainly blind (low precept) and except for those with high skill, the spells dissipate quickly. Mages have a set of skills that other players don't have...like druids. IMO mages should be physically weak having non-existant fighting skills except for warlocks but that may be impossible to script. (i.e. adding one set of skills takes away another set)

WE, except for the distance aspect, since mages are effectively blind supposedly a good archer with excellent precept can pwn if game mechanics allows.

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Post by King Udan Trollbane » Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:02 pm

Keep mages as weak as possible, they can already EASILY kill any fighter unless taken by surprise from many sides...

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Post by Kevin Lightdot » Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:06 pm

How about giving the player a choise between several fighting classes skillwise too, something you can choose in the game at some point via maybe a quest or just an item or an npc.

You can choose lets say mage druid, melee fighter and ranged fighter(if ranged becomes strong enough, otherwise just put it under fighter)

Fighter: Limit magic, druid & range skills to max 50%
Mage: Limit fighting, druid&range skills to max 50%
Archer: Limit fighting, druid&magic skills to max 50%

Or leave out the archer class and file that under fighter, depending on how the ranged stuff is going to work.
Ok it limits freedom on becoming everything you want a little, but so little that it shouldn't really make a difference, and stops mages from also maxing their dodge and parry.

Of course, if the big update adresses this problem otherwise without making mages useless I didn't say anything. :P

As for mr. Udan, most mages playing right now are also very highly skilled, wheras you are likely not, that really contributes.

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Post by Nalzaxx » Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:49 pm

Classes are fundamentally against some of the basic principles of Illarion. I think the ability to be able to skill up everything and anything leads to a whole host of much more interesting characters.

I must concurr though, mages are incredibly overpowered, and while it may spoil my own fun a little if they get nerfed, I truly cannot complain if it happens.

3 Qwan Kels are all it takes to eliminate a standard fighter, and that can be spammed off in about 4 seconds by the top end mages. Combined with the about 30 ms casting time of paralyse they are literally illarion's answer to atomic weapons.

There's also a number of bugs and glitches in the system that experienced mages can use to get an advantage on even the most skilled warriors. And then! They can heal themselves too!

But in the end, the solution remains the same, wait for the VBU where things will (hopefully) be balanced properly.

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Post by Kevin Lightdot » Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:10 pm

Nalzaxx wrote:Classes are fundamentally against some of the basic principles of Illarion. I think the ability to be able to skill up everything and anything leads to a whole host of much more interesting characters.

True, but maxed parry/dodge mages lol

Though perhaps if/when we get a priest system you can nerf a mage's healing skills a whole lot since I guess priests will get healing spells mostly.
That'll be able to contribute a bit to nerfing mages.
And maybe a variable max running speed depending on agility or dex, making mages unable to outrun a fighter if it does come down to it.

Or go World of Warcraft on them make their damage a bunch less, but give them a few instant cast spells that have a cooldown instead of a casting time. :P

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Post by Saril » Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:19 pm

Nur einmal meine Meinug dazu und auf Deutsch, weil ich die Einseitigkeit solcher Diskosionen verabscheue:

Ein "natürlicher Lehrraum" ist witzlos. Jeder Magierlehrer kann seine Runen auch frei ohne einen Lehrraum geben. Er muß dann nur damit leben nicht 10 Schülern auf einmal Runen geben zu können sondern vielleicht nur 2 oder 3 hintereinander. So schlimm ist das meiner Meinung nicht.
Würde jetz ein jedem zugänglicher Lehrraum geschaffen, würde es nur das PG verhalten einiger Fördern. Es würde ihnen erleichter jedem Idioten (damit meine ich Chars die nicht als Magier ausgelegt sind wie Krieger oder so) Runen zu geben nur damit sie ein paar Zauber können und so nicht so shcnell besiegt werden können. Ich finde soetwas sollte nicht gefördert werden.

Zur Wiederholung: Man kann ohne Lehrraum Runen vergeben!

Lehrräume wurden geschaffen damit Magier sich an einen Ort binden. Die Akademie ist noch sehr Liberal. Dort kann ja jeder Lehrmeister sein egal welche Einstellung er außerhalb der Akademie vertritt. (oder konnte es zumal)

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Post by Alsaya » Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:30 pm

Das ist irrelevant nun Saril, da die MA ihre Pforten geöffnet hat für alle und nun jeder Lehrer den Lehrraum dort benutzen kann.

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Post by AlexRose » Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:32 pm

Master fighters rape average mages. Master mages rape average fighters. Honestly, I have no idea what master mages vs master fighters is like, because I've never been stupid enough to attack Dominic (since he was strong :P). I think there's a good chance that wouldn't end well for me.

But meh. Also @Nalzaxx: Y'know.. you'd expect players who are mages to not abuse bugs as you put it.

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