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Post by Evan Ross » Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:35 pm

Valione wrote:@gm's - use your right to play as the 'gods' more often!
Unless I'm mistaken, This is kind of limited by a past quest in which the 'gods' agreed to no longer interfere with the Island unless it was majorly threatened.

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Post by Vern Kron » Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:48 pm

AlexRose wrote:I don't think that's necessarily the case that other things stopped us from playing. It's not like we seeped out over time, I think there was definitely a short period of time in which all of the "last gen" as I'm gonna call it spontaneously combusted.
I can firmly agree with that. Like, there was a time when guilds were hugely popular, and powerful. Now.. they don't look quite so.. ya know.. active. Then we had a whole bunch of new gm's who then just slowly disappeared. And then we had a bunch of players who were here.. and they sort of faded away too. So now we got what we got and we need to make the best of it. So lets do it. Start today!

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Post by AlexRose » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:36 am

Yeah sure, the fun is dead. You're never gonna get all the old players to simultaneously come back. Most of them don't even come on msn anymore.

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Post by Pyrrho » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:58 am

Vern Kron wrote:
AlexRose wrote:I don't think that's necessarily the case that other things stopped us from playing. It's not like we seeped out over time, I think there was definitely a short period of time in which all of the "last gen" as I'm gonna call it spontaneously combusted.
I can firmly agree with that. Like, there was a time when guilds were hugely popular, and powerful. Now.. they don't look quite so.. ya know.. active. Then we had a whole bunch of new gm's who then just slowly disappeared. And then we had a bunch of players who were here.. and they sort of faded away too. So now we got what we got and we need to make the best of it. So lets do it. Start today!
Forcing on the user end of game design hardly works either. It wont help to try and accomplish your goals with a system that doesn't cater to them.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:19 am

OK, this discussion yielded:

Board is lame because of non lame players left because of lame game.

Fine so far, I (and the staff) are aware that this game has... room for improvement. Or do you think we're satisfied with the current state? That's why some devs are working their asses off for what was baptised the "very big update". Since this is an ongoing process, we need your feedback what to improve! The devs have their own ideas, but ideas of (former) devs led to the current state, so voice your opinion :P!

A bad road is to add more and more "junk features" to the game, stuff it with stuff nobody uses while leaving sucking features untouched. So; what do you like? What do you dislike and how would you change it?

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Post by Arvemor » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:35 am

So; what do you like? What do you dislike and how would you change it?
Smaller areas? I know it sounds like a step backwards, but according to those players that were here when the map was smaller it was much easier to find someone to rp with.

And if us new players suck at roleplaying, teach us! I know I make the occasional mistake...but so far only one person has corrected me.

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Post by Pellandria » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:42 am

Estralis Seborian wrote:OK, this discussion yielded:

Board is lame because of non lame players left because of lame game.
Thats the reason the game goes downhill, when player discuss the gm brain seems just to see either "mock mock complain" or "praise praise asslick" really...

No seriously now, it was allready told what the reasons are, old players leaving or evolve to lurkers, which contribute nothing to the game itself but atleast give the illusion of forum activity, some older players leave the forum alone because either of childish behaviour, unbearable topics or ridicoulus locking policy of the gms, those players as such will be lost to Illarion, for the simple reason that you cannot play the game alone with the client, the forum itself is an important part to keep up with the island events and shape your chars reaction on such.
The real players, who use the forum wisely slowly die out, which isn't suprising, as we see an almost dictatorship in here, rules are bend so far that they represent a slinky, while rights are taken away from the player again and again, just take the rumor post in the forum, that thing was "blooming" and even had a few fun posts, since gm administration, over a year ago, the rumorspost not only saw a ~lock~ but also just 6 posts, six posts in over a year is an ridicoulus amount. in the five years of existanc the rumors topic had a , very well rounded, normal ration of 300 posts in a year, now its closed up for good.

Of course the constant locking and different opinions of gms on about ~every~ topic does not really shed much good light on the allready rather hard connection from the playerbase to the gms.

So the summary is..the trend of leaving the board always seemed to be a natural occurance, older player leaving the game or lurking the forums, maybe some decissions from the staff side shifted the balance to one or the other side, probably the picture is far too complex to just say "reason x caused event y", maybe its just like a big jigsaw puzzle and we all hold one piece of evidence in our heads..or its just a phase that will repeat itself in a year again, after it got better.

The reason that I do not further explain myself or even answer on someone elses post, except the humoristic and incredibly witty response to estralis, is that I actually need to know what exactly "aggresiv posting" is, that Icaused two bans allready so in case I "post aggresievly" again, I certaintly wouldn't know, well unless a Gm finally explains what kind of rule is covering "aggresiev posting" as a rulebreak.

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Post by Alexander Knight » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:58 pm

Pellandria wrote: just take the rumor post in the forum, that thing was "blooming" and even had a few fun posts, since gm administration, over a year ago, the rumorspost not only saw a ~lock~ but also just 6 posts, six posts in over a year is an ridicoulus amount. in the five years of existanc the rumors topic had a , very well rounded, normal ration of 300 posts in a year, now its closed up for good.
Being a new-ish player amongst ya i read into the rumour post and even tried to re-open it (Got locked in record time) and i actually agree with ya... Like take Alex's story IG: Killed/attacked a few guards and a bearer and is now on the run... I might like some RP in the way of rumours as to where i am (Tol woods btw ;) ) without nailing parchment to door (Which i cant cos i'm banned from trolls Bane). which leads me onto my next rant.... Although i admit i do like the whole guard/soldiers in bane there must be atleast one way to get in without GM help. No town is impregnable, not even trolls bane. I say take a guard away or atleast give us a secret tunnel with a key or something.
Icaused two bans allready so in case I "post aggresievly" again, I certaintly wouldn't know, well unless a Gm finally explains what kind of rule is covering "aggresiev posting" as a rulebreak.
Dont worry about it. I been banned....*Counts* Alot :) Admittingly most of the time i deserved it (a few times i didnt but we wont get into that ;) )

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Post by AlexRose » Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:20 pm

Estralis Seborian wrote:A bad road is to add more and more "junk features" to the game, stuff it with stuff nobody uses while leaving sucking features untouched. So; what do you like? What do you dislike and how would you change it?
Personally, I think, as an rp game, illarion didn't even require the current client. I don't see it as an improvement and due to my crap pc (which is the reason I joined illarion in the first place) I couldn't even run the new client for several months. I was getting killed by invisible wolves. Had to use my mum's laptop. I don't see why an increase in the playerbase was a good thing when it just drove out all the experienced rpers.

But anyway, I just carried on using the new client, we got a lot more noobs and lost a lot of good players but I played anyway, found a new group of friends 3 times and I think magic kept me motivated to play as well.

But in the current state it's in, I think the only way to get people more.. interested again is to stop ignoring a big issue I see.

Make ice walls. Make bamboo floors and hedge walls. Make vines. RECOLOUR MONSTERS. Noone cares on illarion what the graphics look like. Make ice golems and make elements. Elements are important to an rpg. Make it so a firesword hurts ice golems and ice dragons and ice elementals and snow wolves and snow panthers, and have ice swords which damage flame skeletons and dragons and fire elementals and things. Honestly, paperdolling is "oh look wow my man changes clothes, incredible, I couldn't have done that with my imagination". Scripting new monster types and making new monster graphics add a GAMEPLAY element. Something that's fun to do. It's not fun to watch your man change clothes. Paperdolling is suggested by the current forum noob once every few months. You're always looking to increase the playerbase, but you're not keeping your old players because you'd rather make updates they don't give a damn about than actually make the gameplay more enjoyable. There nothing wrong with recolouring your preexisting models. Or using the same graphic for 10 different types of sword. "Magical Serinjah" "Serinjah of Malachín", whatever takes your fancy. I know it's probably a crapload of work but if you just made a start on it then maybe one day you'd have it that fire spells damage ice monsters more and ice monsters can stun (freeze) you and lightning axes will damage.. water skeletons, whatever, it doesn't matter. Lizard pirates. If people cared about graphics they wouldn't be playing illa over the other hundreds of rpgs. And I know you may say "well it takes away the rp element". New dungeons make new rp. New monsters make new attacks on town and new quests other than generic demon lich things.

/endrant

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Post by Alexander Knight » Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:36 pm

AlexRose wrote:Make ice golems and make elements. Elements are important to an rpg. Make it so a firesword hurts ice golems and ice dragons and ice elementals and snow wolves and snow panthers, and have ice swords which damage flame skeletons and dragons and fire elementals and things. Honestly, paperdolling is "oh look wow my man changes clothes, incredible, I couldn't have done that with my imagination". Scripting new monster types and making new monster graphics add a GAMEPLAY element. Something that's fun to do.
http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=32128


New dungeons make new rp. New monsters make new attacks on town and new quests other than generic demon lich things.
Agree'd

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Post by Kranek » Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:02 pm

I think paperdolling ads ALOT to the rp!
Just imagine some guys fromt he same guild, wearing the same robes. Or some barbarians wearing the same armors and weapons ;)

ABout dungeons and such: sure, they add things...for the warriors and the mages! Anyone still wondering why there are not enough crafters out there? Cause most of the proposals to improve the game focus on the fighting chars!

Sure, some things will change with the VBU, we will see which ones. But only adding dungeons and new monsters will NOT help the game overall.

Concerning the rumours: they got closed cause many people abbused them like:
"Some people say that X is an idiot and Y has a small di**!"
I am glad that this is over ;)

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Post by The great one » Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:43 pm

Kranek wrote:Concerning the rumours: they got closed cause many people abbused them like:
"Some people say that X is an idiot and Y has a small di**!"
I am glad that this is over ;)
So get the moderators to do their job properly.

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Post by Kranek » Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:57 pm

The great one wrote:
Kranek wrote:Concerning the rumours: they got closed cause many people abbused them like:
"Some people say that X is an idiot and Y has a small di**!"
I am glad that this is over ;)
So get the moderators to do their job properly.
So get more credible people to become moderators

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Post by Miklorius » Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:42 pm

Here are some very good statements about the status quo of Illarion - I hope the devs don't understand this thread in a wrong way.

I overall agree with Pyrrho: Although the technical updates since late 0.4 (where I joined Illarion) are mostly good or interessting, often the game design aspect of these changes seems to be absent. But as it was said: Game design and balancing is a hard and often no fun work. So I understand that the devs who still work for free on this game are programming/scripting stuff in which they are interested in. But as the game features get richer and more complex, the need for design or at least balancing is important (I still don't get it why some stupid error was in the weapons database forever while quite destroying the fighting system).

As it was also pointed out in this thread, Illarion's greatest problem is its small player base. Mr. Cromwell said it: If you only have limited players, active/important/famous players resp. characters are indispensable! It was a big fault by the staff to scare off some of these players only because they piss off some staffies - even if some of these POs acted like idiots sometimes. If you look back you see that the most town governments and guilds are run by one central PO - if (s)he leaves, the guild etc. usually crumbles in no time. Somehow there was then an exodus of many veteran players and since then, the game or player base changed in my perception. I don't know if it's really that new players don't find old ones to learn from them the "Illa RP way", because eveybody left or chose exile.

To attract more players it seems that the devs only try to get more points for the game's features list to compete with other free MMORPGs. This means better graphics and far more functions, but on the other hand the game got more and more complex as Pyrrho said and many of the new comfort functions just happen to mitigate a bit this new complexity. I don't know what this "VBU" (or "NIX", as I call it for now ;-)) will change, but I hope it doesn't mean a ton of new features which aren't balanced between each other. Make the core mechanisms run well before try to compete with bigger players! BTW: I really looking forward for paperdolling or at least different coloured figures.

To get back to the initial posting: I was never a big fan of forum RP, but I used the forums to keep me informed about IG happenings (or write about them), esp. since I stopped playing the game regularly. In the "past" it was possible to follow and reconstruct IG happenings from the forums, which seems not possible anymore. Illarion was a Realm vs. Realm MMO for me, in a smaller, but wider sense: Quite everybody could impact the world with enough endurance (compare Cromwell's posting). I liked the smaller and bigger conflicts (not necessarily battles) between guilds and towns - is this all gone now? Because I don't read much of this in the forums...

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Post by Pyrrho » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:03 pm

A bad road is to add more and more "junk features" to the game, stuff it with stuff nobody uses while leaving sucking features untouched. So; what do you like? What do you dislike and how would you change it?
Adding new features doesn't fix an already broken game. You have to do a few things according to my big post:

1) Skilling should become easier. I dont think anyone originally got in this game to "grind". Skilling is fun, its part of the game! Just dont make me work for so little, as this is not the main draw of the game.

2) Smaller distances between cities. Or more content in between travel times.

3) Easier skill system. No more "niche" crafts that really don't accomplish much. They dont really add any variety, just a different name for a subset of tools/items. Also, just because collecting/harvesting should be its own job doesnt mean you force this by making it take hours ot collect a reasonable amount of material. A person should be able to harvest/craft but for a quick stockpile they can buy cheap. In fact, if people had large stock piles they wanted to sell for a price, they would buy it.


These are the most obvious errors. Adding more functions or content wont mean anything if the system to which its added isnt being used.
Last edited by Pyrrho on Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by AlexRose » Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:03 pm

Kranek wrote:I think paperdolling ads ALOT to the rp!
Just imagine some guys fromt he same guild, wearing the same robes. Or some barbarians wearing the same armors and weapons
It's an rp game. We already have a look at system and you can all emote that you're wearing the same armour.
Kranek wrote:Concerning the rumours: they got closed cause many people abbused them like:
"Some people say that X is an idiot and Y has a small di**!"
Very few people did that, and everyone should be punished because of that? I'm sorry, but the final nail in the coffin was "A rumor begins to spread ridiculously fast that the Elves of Vanima have begun sacrificing human children to Nargun." "In the northmark, the rumour about elves sacrificing human children is widely believed."

That's what we call a bit of light hearted humour. But das ist

Image

in illa apparently.

I find it ridiculous that after a complete change in the player base Nitram is like "Evidently the whole of the rest of humanity has proved themselves unworthy of the rumours thread" in Alexander Knight's thread.

Oh and that Prince thread is classic. I don't know who Udan is but he is a hero amongst mortal men. I couldn't see a better way to show a stance on that situation.




[importance begins here]
Kranek wrote:ABout dungeons and such: sure, they add things...for the warriors and the mages! Anyone still wondering why there are not enough crafters out there? Cause most of the proposals to improve the game focus on the fighting chars!
Crafting is already broken anyway. Only a masochist would play a crafter. I don't see what the appeal is for crafting in any game at all actually, but yes, there are the odd few that like crafting. However, I put this to you:

A miner find a hollow whilst mining and cave in which his friend explores and a blood curdling scream is heard, and he reports it to the protectors of the island (or maybe some children are playing and one falls down a hole and dies or something suitably morbid that'll get people talking). The people in a position of authority, especially those who own the land, have to make the call on whether they should block the whole, or maybe send in some hired blades to investigate first. Say the blades come back and say there's an old lizard temple in there that's been completely frozen, probably by magical forces, for some reason unbeknownst to them. The scholars of the island will wish to study it and find its secrets and the reason for it being there, but they'll need some people to accompany them to fight the horrible monsters that reside inside.

Maybe there's even something for Crafters. Some rare.. nevermeltice or something that can be used to craft magical swords that only a good eye of an experienced crafter will be able to spot, and he needs a group to escort him.

However, the authorities might see it as a danger to the people? Should they choose to close it? Of course, this may result in opposition from the Magic Academy or a Priesthood. Maybe priests will declare it sanctioned ground for the time being because such a powerful display of magic could be attributed to the Gods long ago, maybe to punish people? Maybe there were secrets within that someone didn't want people to find out about? Maybe the Barbarians of the isle wish to go inside and smash the living daylights out of things, and they get opposition from the scholarly mages? Maybe the elves know about this event as a story passed down, and know of some great power that lies within, and wish to either harness it or prevent any mortal from falling to this? Maybe one of the protectors of this secret decides he wants this power, and maybe that starts a badass quest.

Even just the act of going down there and blasting the crap out of new monsters with your friends, you have something to rp about.

Or they could make crafting a bit easier, so people can sit by an anvil all day shift clicking stuff, carrying it from their depot and having the only player interaction as "Selling 5 cursed shields" "I'll pay 250 copper" "Deal".

Or they could add paperdolling so people can marvel at their character "Oh no, we have matching clothes! What a wardrobe malfunction! I'd better go home and get changed!" or "Omg hawt a nakedz elf fapfap"

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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:04 pm

Looking at the thread there are evidently some very differing views over what is 'wrong' with illarion (my own view included). Moreover, the subjectivity of the sources of dissatisfaction is further highlighted by the fact that some of the things mentioned here as "bad changes" such as increased map-size were in fact welcomed by great many players. More importantly, some changes which have lead to a sparsely populated map are directly traceable on the players of the game themselves; the movement for more cities has traditionally been player driven (varshikar/northerot, greenbriar, silverbrand/goldburg, Zzyathis, Nordmark, Caelum, Union, Grey Haven..) which has lead to the (modestly) increased amount of players being divided over (much) more settlements. One thing is however certain; There have always been (even during the days of complete technological stagnation client-wise, so technological change is not the culprint here) old players who have (for whatever reason) become dissatisfied with the game and consequently feel the need to proclaim that the game has gone down the crapper. This is an important thing to keep in mind. We all experience the game differently due to our individual likes and dislikes, and most likely there is no magical formula which addresses the concerns of everybody, simply because these concerns may often be contradictory from person to person.

Anyway, I think that:
1.) The staff should ease the bridles a little bit, when it comes to the behaviour in roleplaying boards. Allow discussions, allow debates... These will then allow people to communicate interesting and controversial events and may even attract people back online. Furthermore, allow free posting in the rumour thread, only removing the retarded rumours. Activity in the boards over IG matters is good because it is fun and interesting. If you want creative roleplay and want to support it, then you must be willing to accept the chance of occassional misbehaviour (freedom isn't free, and all that ;)). In general, steer clear of the trend of "since some people do X in a way that we do not approve, we ban everyone from doing X".

2.) I think Pyrrho has a point about the work-reward when it comes to skillgain (and by extension to the whole magic-rune-gaining-mess), however I more think that either the way skillgaining works should be completely or that the current system is simply tweaked. I really don't look back at the 'good old days' when it was possible to max all skills in a week or so with warmth. There should still be a divide between experienced characters and non-experienced characters, which should not be crossable with a simple snap of the fingers.

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Post by Pyrrho » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:21 pm

Looking at the thread there are evidently some very differing views over what is 'wrong' with illarion (my own view included). Moreover, the subjectivity of the sources of dissatisfaction is further highlighted by the fact that some of the things mentioned here as "bad changes" such as increased map-size were in fact welcomed by great many players.
So long as the design functions as it was meant to, there was nothing bad about it. In this case, the big update is a success. However, if the real big update was now introducing "Illarion: The Turn Based Strategy", would you still play?

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Post by Alexander Knight » Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:24 pm

Mr. Cromwell wrote: such as increased map-size were in fact welcomed by great many players.
I think here the GM's mainly done it in anticipation of the masses of players coming to Illarion.
Mr. Cromwell wrote:Anyway, I think that:
1.) The staff should ease the bridles a little bit, when it comes to the behaviour in roleplaying boards. Allow discussions, allow debates... These will then allow people to communicate interesting and controversial events and may even attract people back online. Furthermore, allow free posting in the rumour thread, only removing the retarded rumours. Activity in the boards over IG matters is good because it is fun and interesting. If you want creative roleplay and want to support it, then you must be willing to accept the chance of occassional misbehaviour (freedom isn't free, and all that ;)). In general, steer clear of the trend of "since some people do X in a way that we do not approve, we ban everyone from doing X".
Agree'd and the GM's dont even need to do that much tbh. If we all see a player starting a rumour which is out of line or noteworthy we can contact a GM about it or even take it into our own hands and tell them the consequences of it being taken away from the others (In private... NO NAMING AND SHAMING)
Mr. Cromwell wrote:2.) I think Pyrrho has a point about the work-reward when it comes to skillgain (and by extension to the whole magic-rune-gaining-mess), however I more think that either the way skillgaining works should be completely or that the current system is simply tweaked. I really don't look back at the 'good old days' when it was possible to max all skills in a week or so with warmth. There should still be a divide between experienced characters and non-experienced characters, which should not be crossable with a simple snap of the fingers.

See i dont agree on this one. I would honestly like to work for my rewards and it makes it more fun but thats my opinion. My char Alex doesnt even train any more as i didnt set out to have a maxed char only a decent one.
In my opinion it should be a little harder (Fighting skill) because we have too many maxed or nearly maxed chars and be honest how many people in medievil times were so hard even their own nightmares were scared of them? (Few romans, a monguls and a few crusaders, not every tom dick and harry)

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:54 pm

I just thought i would throw in my two cents and will expand on it a little later (might as well get a word in before the topic locks).

Illarion's been deteriorating for a good 2-3 years from what I have noticed. There was a rush to expand the player base which instead seemed to decrease it. I remember a time where there would be 10 - 15 people online in the evening here in America, at least 3-4 of them would be in the tavern or by a camp fire. Occasionally I still see people by the fire, but normally I log into an empty Trolls Bane when I play. When there is action people are causing trouble. Something which may entertain them, but annoys everyone else on the map. New players have little to no rp experience. I agree that it can't be fixed without them rping with older players/experienced rpers, but on the flip side the new players actually need to be willing to learn. You can lead a new player to good rp, but it doesn't mean they will follow along.

Guilds have been deteriorating. I remember a time when someone in the knighthood would set a time for a meeting and at least 5-6 people would show up. Now good luck even getting one person to arrive. People complain about guild inactivity, but guilds won't be active if there aren't any people to participate in them. Guilds won't work if people can't follow the set rules. This may be a game and you can't spend all your life in it. But if you make an ig commitment, it is a good idea to attempt to stick to it.

Realism in this game is both a blessing and a curse. I'd love to see people treat this as a real world. On the other hand people think realism and they think either modern or European middle ages. Illarion is neither. Illarion is a world in and of itself and Gobaith is a isle with its own culture, politics, and people. You have to treat the world as that. There is a fine line where democracy in Trolls Bane comes off as a modern day idea and as the original politics of the town. You have to figure out where the line is ig. Is democracy in Trolls Bane right because we think it is right, or is it right in our characters minds because that is what they have always known.

I have to get going, but there is one last point I want to make. I remember Damien saying something along the lines of "If you go in game with the intent to be entertained, don't bother. Instead go in game with the intent to entertain others." Don't think too hard on this or make a bigger deal out of it than what it is. Don't go in game and expect people to come to you. Instead go to others and create something together. This isn't WOW where multiplayer can be done on your own. You have to work together to keep Illarion alive, 'cause it can't be done by one person.

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Post by Pyrrho » Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:11 pm

"If you go in game with the intent to be entertained, don't bother. Instead go in game with the intent to entertain others."
Don't go into a movie and expect to see something. Instead, imagine your own film!

If we follow this, all the system requires it to be is an online graphical chat. Except now its that with a bunch of obstacles in your way.

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Post by Korwin » Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:25 pm

That's a terrible analogy. Movies don't rely on the interaction of viewers for their appeal (Except Snakes on a Plane and the Rocky Horror Picture Show).

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Post by Pyrrho » Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:27 pm

Yes, it was, but I tried to clear it up with the second statement. Its hard to make your own entertainment when you can't find anyone or everyone is too busy to actually interact. The game design should facilitate the objective, not hinder it.

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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:11 pm

Alexander Knight wrote:See i dont agree on this one. I would honestly like to work for my rewards and it makes it more fun but thats my opinion. My char Alex doesnt even train any more as i didnt set out to have a maxed char only a decent one.
In my opinion it should be a little harder (Fighting skill) because we have too many maxed or nearly maxed chars and be honest how many people in medievil times were so hard even their own nightmares were scared of them? (Few romans, a monguls and a few crusaders, not every tom dick and harry)
Well, work is work, but gaming should be gaming (gaming doesn't need to be easy, but it should not be work. It can be challenging, but it should be fun as well). The problem (IMO) now is that the maxing of the char is more like work than fun (at least from my perspective). Maxing your character is actually all the same possible to everyone (with some players achieving very high skill very quickly even), but it comes at a horrible-boredom price. After you have gained uber skills, I am sure that the gaming is rewarding.. however, I'd digress if someone suggests that the process of gaining those skills would typically be so. ;)
Pyrrho wrote:
Looking at the thread there are evidently some very differing views over what is 'wrong' with illarion (my own view included). Moreover, the subjectivity of the sources of dissatisfaction is further highlighted by the fact that some of the things mentioned here as "bad changes" such as increased map-size were in fact welcomed by great many players.
So long as the design functions as it was meant to, there was nothing bad about it. In this case, the big update is a success. However, if the real big update was now introducing "Illarion: The Turn Based Strategy", would you still play?
I wonder how you can get that impression from what I wrote. If anything, I shifted a portion of the 'blame' over why the game is the way it is (which is important because other players such as you disagree with this) to the community itself rather than blame the staff for bad game design. If group A wants a bigger map because this helps to facilitate different kinds of IG groups and different kinds of RP (which brings them enjoyment), whereas group B wants to keep the map small for the sake of finding people more easily (which brings them enjoyment), then expanding the map a bad design decision only for the members of group B. That's a question of perspective. You somehow seem to be thinking that that whatever you say is the true and most crucial perspective from which the issue should be looked at. Certainly you are right, but only as far as you are concerned (as in, your own perspective to a given problem is naturally the most important one for yoy). As soon as you make an attempt to generalize this into being something which applies on the entire community (as you seem to be doing, judging from your tone) you're just as wrong as you previously were right.

Nonetheless, I actually appreciate your concerns and am thinking a way which would allow people to find company easier IG. I actually thought of an idea where players would be able to flag themselves on the minimap (visible for other similarly flagged players) when they're searching for roleplay. Granted, I see some issues with that even without considering the technical implementation, but it would in my opinion be a good way of facilitating people like you on a larger map. :)

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Post by Pyrrho » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:27 pm

The main function of this game is to provide a world to RP with other players, at least thats what I thought it was. Redesigning the game that would work better for a larger player base we did not have seems to be bad design.
. As soon as you make an attempt to generalize this into being something which applies on the entire community (as you seem to be doing, judging from your tone) you're just as wrong as you previously were right.
to the community itself rather than blame the staff for bad game design.
Its never a communities fault for not enjoying the game, because they can just stop playing. I was trying to point out that making a bigger map isn't inherently a bad design. In fact, in many cases it could be good. However, in this case, it was unwarranted. Sure there may be some players who enjoy a bigger map, but it hinders playability more than it adds, which can be seen right now. As you said, you can't please everyone's specific fantasies of what they envision the game to be. You can however, find a balance. It appears to me, that a larger map does the opposite, at least the way the map was designed. If people want lands to explore, a more centralized city approach could have been made.

I suppose I could have made my point in a more elegant manner, but basically there may be some few players out there who want X land for each player to call his own, but this wont be done because its so narrow and only benefits a few players. Assuming most players are here to RP with other players, a larger map that was presented hinders more players than helping what appears to be those who appreciate a large map. Just as you can't please everyone, you can't make a game that wants to do everything.
I actually thought of an idea where players would be able to flag themselves on the minimap (visible for other similarly flagged players) when they're searching for roleplay.
As I said above, it would be easier to find a solution by making a more concentrated "play" area and then from there exploration area (as I can only see exploration as the enjoyable function of a larger map). This would be easier for new players, cut down on traveling costs, and allow players who want a large map to still enjoy it. Note, flagging players on a map still means I have to travel long ways to get to them on the current map.


EDIT: I also want to make myself clear that my previous post was disagree with your position. If the staff did make Illarion: Turn Based Strategy as the big update and hyped it to the players. Well, surely the game could function and may have been designed well, but that doesn't mean that current group would be satisfied, it also means that it wouldn't be their fault. Its not the players fault that the player base is the size it is when the new client came out.

If the staff just wanted to redesign a game to how they saw fit, they have made no fault. It just did not seem they put too much thought into who was playing the game and why, as well as how viable the design would be.

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Post by Alexander Knight » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:16 pm

Why dont some people make a topic IG like free RP where they state their location so people will be able to find them to RP

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Post by rakust dorenstkzul » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:21 pm

Alexander Knight wrote:Why dont some people make a topic IG like free RP where they state their location so people will be able to find them to RP
It's the whole issue of OOC Knowledge over what your character knows.

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:32 pm

Pyrrho you did exactly what I told you not to do. His point was not to tell people to create rp because they should, but to enjoy the game together because the game doesn't revolve around your character or your preferences. Go back to kindergarten and learn how to share. There are better rpers in some kindergartens who play house together than there are in Illarion at times. The game ain't about you. It is about having fun together.

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Post by Pyrrho » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:49 pm

Dantagon Marescot wrote:Pyrrho you did exactly what I told you not to do. His point was not to tell people to create rp because they should, but to enjoy the game together because the game doesn't revolve around your character or your preferences. Go back to kindergarten and learn how to share. There are better rpers in some kindergartens who play house together than there are in Illarion at times. The game ain't about you. It is about having fun together.
My beef isn't with the player base, its with the platform.

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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:14 am

Pyrrho wrote:The main function of this game is to provide a world to RP with other players, at least thats what I thought it was. Redesigning the game that would work better for a larger player base we did not have seems to be bad design.
Its never a communities fault for not enjoying the game, because they can just stop playing. I was trying to point out that making a bigger map isn't inherently a bad design. In fact, in many cases it could be good. However, in this case, it was unwarranted. Sure there may be some players who enjoy a bigger map, but it hinders playability more than it adds, which can be seen right now. As you said, you can't please everyone's specific fantasies of what they envision the game to be. You can however, find a balance. It appears to me, that a larger map does the opposite, at least the way the map was designed. If people want lands to explore, a more centralized city approach could have been made.
As I said above, it would be easier to find a solution by making a more concentrated "play" area and then from there exploration area (as I can only see exploration as the enjoyable function of a larger map). This would be easier for new players, cut down on traveling costs, and allow players who want a large map to still enjoy it. Note, flagging players on a map still means I have to travel long ways to get to them on the current map.
The community is at fault simply because it has been the driving force behind the current layout of the map beyond the fact that it has been expanded. If what you say was true regarding only a few players enjoying the large map, then I think we would not have such a large amount of player-constructed buildings and settlements sprawling across the island. If the players themselves would have wanted to retain a single playing area and the rest for exploration, then this would undoubtedly be the case at the moment ingame as most of the construction has been always initiated by the players. So, the community is really at fault here, with blame on the staff only laying on expanding the map and allowing the players to actively tell their stories and shape the world according to these stories. If the players have been demanding these props (as they have) and you disagree with that, that's fine. Just stop pretending like it was not the case and that , when the game design of the world has actually been done by the players. Yes, the staff are very much guilty of giving the players this freedom; however if you think the child is a bastard, then you should take into account that like with most freedoms, there is one who gives the freedom and other who makes what he wants with it. The decentralized nature of the island is the fault of the playerbase itself, period.

If there was no interest on behalf of the players in these various groups, if there was no interest on behalf of the players to spend considerable amounts of their time and effort in creating these story-telling and roleplay settings, then this would not have been done.

But anyway, it seems to me that you're not really interested in a world in which to RP with other players, but rather a small graphical lounge or chatroom where you can hang around and be entertained by others. I'm sorry, but your constant attitude towards making any effort on your own behalf, even if that includes walking a minute or two to another player (because realistically, walking around is fast in this game and portals take you to all the important locations anyway). What seems to be good game design to you is simply to force all characters to be at the same location by removing any choice or alternatives. That may very well have its merits in bringing players together, but may fail at creating an interesting world.

The point is, that there's no anti-gravity which by force pulls the players away from the center and tosses them in the far corners of the island. That's the choice of each player. If the players would so want, everyone would sit in the tavern telling stories even at the moment. If the externality of the decision of not doing so brings the difficulty of finding RP partners quickly and effortlessly, then the solution lies simply in using your own energy and ability to RP into luring other players into roleplaying with you by creating a hotspot of your own. If the individual settings created by others are more interesting than the prospect of finding quick RP (which could be done by players simply going, by agreement, to the same spot to look for it) then the whole premise of your argument "only few people wanting this and that" is clearly wrong.

The thing you seem to miss is that the roleplay in Illarion has (thus far) been about freedom of the players to roleplay and shape the world. That has (apparently) been a design decision. Whether this is a success or not, is of course debatable. I agree with you in some points, but well.. if players have wanted to create settings, they have been allowed to. Their roleplaying and demands have been supported. Are there too many settings too far apart (or alternatively, too few players)? Yes. Who is to blame for that? Players.

Freedom isn't free. Currently, it is people like you who are suffering from the freedoms of others. Other way around, it would be people like you suffocating the storylines and RP of others by forcing them into the same lounge and preventing them from shaping the world (or alternatively, keeping the world dull and stagnant, as opposed to dull and changing ;)). Anyway, the thing with freedom is that you're free to do your own thing. You are completely within your powers to try and find the best remedy for the situation. :)

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