Attn: Crafters - Opinions wanted

Rekarafi · Post by **Rekarafi** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:58 am

There was already a proposal in that case: You could regenerate health faster after eating a good meal.
That would cause only fighters to eat rabbit dishes before the fight and go there hungry...hrm.

So maybe after a really good meal was eaten you have then chance to get +1 to one of your attribs for some time (30 mins, perhabs?)
OR
After one of these meals your hunger glass goes empty at a slower rate

Both might increase the value of good cooks and their meals, but i prefer the last proposal of me

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:47 am

wilf wrote:i´ve made my own sowrd... a good fighting sword! it works!... and i made it in...öhm...3 Weeks?!

Did you make it using a medieval hammer, and did the process involve smelting your own ore using a coal furnace? Not a modern blast furnace. What happens if you whack your sword against something made of metal, does it chip or break?

-
@ Vern: Food consumption while gathering can be done (far as I know), honey gathering as well, make 50 pins as well, I'm trying to fix carpentry - they have all the shields now, so that makes them useful, more useful things are harder to make now.

@ Arabel+Rekarafi : Beyond the scope of this opinion request.

Thrym · Post by **Thrym** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:32 pm

As for herblore, when a druid goes to a certain plant to harvest herbs, it's because he's looking for a certain herb to harvest -- not random herbs. He would not bother to pick any other herbs unless he was looking for those specific ones. We would typically pick many of the same herb over and over, and then filter out all but the best ones to make a potion with, so it would do us no good at all to get multiple kinds of herbs from the same plant unless they were all very high quality. Otherwise, we would just be throwing away even more herbs to get just the ones we want.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:06 pm

The fact that NPC's sell crap at a high price and buy items for next to nothing is good...DO NOT change that! It forces one to seek out tradespeople ingame to do business if you want a good deal or a quality item.
Gemcutting I agree. The success rate is way off.

"Shields as smithed items. Totally off." Who else would make a shield? They are made of metal for the main part aren't they?
I think fishing gives too many "special items" as it is at lower levels. True it does give new players a bit of an income right away but my character had something like ten oil lamps his first day fishing! The frequency of "special items" should increase with the skill level.
I keep hearing that it is going to be more and more difficult to build new structures in the future for a number of reasons. So reduce the amount of raw stone in the mines. It is very annoying to constantly have to stop and dump loads of stone while you work. Maintain the rate of ore and coal success but just lower the stone. Perhaps leave it high in one mine so miners that want stone will go to the stone mine.

Mesha · Post by **Mesha** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:10 pm

"Shields as smithed items. Totally off." Who else would make a shield? They are made of metal for the main part aren't they?

Out of wood. Carpentry.

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:23 pm

They are made of metal for the main part aren't they?

No. A round shield, made of solid steel, with 60cm diameter and 1cm thickness would weight around 20kg (ten six packs of beer cans). Lift 20kg with one arm and try to deflect a swift blow of a sword. Iron has around 16 times the density of wood. Same shield out of wood would weight 1.25kg.

Metal is only used to reinforce certain points or for plating. But apart from some bucklers and decorative shields, shields were never made of solid metal. And we have no super light weight metal alloys in Illarion that would allow this, even merinium has a density of 6g/cm³

.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:31 pm

I stand corrected. And also a bit less comfortable behind my shield.

Alexander Knight · Post by **Alexander Knight** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:52 pm

Mesha wrote:
"Shields as smithed items. Totally off." Who else would make a shield? They are made of metal for the main part aren't they?
Out of wood. Carpentry.

Correct me if i'm wrong but dudnt coopers (Barrel makers) also play a hand in making shields as they practiced joining wood and metal

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:56 pm

Guys

Back on topic please.

Magdha Tiefenerz · Post by **Magdha Tiefenerz** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:56 pm

Alexander Knight wrote:
Mesha wrote:
"Shields as smithed items. Totally off." Who else would make a shield? They are made of metal for the main part aren't they?
Out of wood. Carpentry.
Correct me if i'm wrong but dudnt coopers (Barrel makers) also play a hand in making shields as they practiced joining wood and metal

Do we have coopers (Barrel makers) or the skill barrel making in the game? No. But we have smithing and carpentry. The discussion was about wether shields do belong to smithing or to carpentry.

Achae Eanstray · Post by **Achae Eanstray** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:00 pm

Tailoring, cooking, lumberjacking, herblore, alchemy.. tools and resources used good except for the problem with finding new herbs for potions that are in good condition.

My only problem with the craft system has been the frequent interruptions even though skill is high. Typically there is not even time to emote before some kind of furry animal runs out of a plant

If possible it would be nice to lengthen these messages/make an auto-start for one time after a fail, or some other way in order not to mess with skill gain yet allow more time to RP.

Anon of D'Athen · Post by **Anon of D'Athen** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:15 am

As to the problem of whether shields belong to carpenters or smiths.. well, why not handle it like swords were when I crafted. A smith made the blade and a carpenter the handle. Have carpenters make the main shield while smiths make the bolts (pins for simplisity), boss (round metal part of the shield that protects the hand as well as where the handle is placed), and for certain heavier-duty shields metal coverings. Yes, a bit of a range of objects, but realistic and useful for..er.. 'convincing' crafters to work together.

Shield boss:
http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&h ... =0&ndsp=21

Alli Zelos · Post by **Alli Zelos** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:18 pm

-Easier way to fill buckets.
OR
-Less water needed to plant trees, and increase time needed to grow by 24 hours.
OR
-Something else to make planting trees NOT take 10 hours.

Thurik Goldenhand · Post by **Thurik Goldenhand** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:41 pm

Carpenters can already make pure wooden shields. Smiths can make metal (useful) shields. And of course, metal shields aren't made of metal. Mostly of wood but bound together with metal. Just like weaponry, carpenter makes one part, smith makes the other. Help high skilled carpenters. Interdependence is good.

Darkshade · Post by **Darkshade** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:01 am

There are just two problems with that proposal as far as i can see.
A. I have a smith charactor who can make hardly anything because he doesnt know any carpentors beside other smiths
B. I have a carpentor char who doesnt know anysmiths exept carpenting smiths

Rekarafi · Post by **Rekarafi** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:04 am

Well, problem B is easy to solve, my char needs much good handles. You'll find him around quite often, so dont say there are no ones

Pellandria · Post by **Pellandria** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:37 am

Could you maybe reduce the food consumption with farming aswell, atleast for a bit and reduce the fail rate with making flour, because last time I tried it its a constant failrate of around 20 flour, which is just annoying to reclick everytime, adds nothing to the game in my opinion aswell as harvesting, thrashing and flourmaking is eating alot of food.

Now I know those jobs ae hard to beginn with yes, but woodcutting, mining and other stuff is hard too and take less food, atleast from my point of view.

Magdha Tiefenerz · Post by **Magdha Tiefenerz** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:42 am

Alli Zelos wrote:-Easier way to fill buckets.
OR
-Less water needed to plant trees, and increase time needed to grow by 24 hours.
OR
-Something else to make planting trees NOT take 10 hours.

Actually I think planting trees is perfectly fine as it is now.

1. You need "just" about 1-2 buckets per tree with a high agriculture skill.
2. You can plant trees near some water, which reduces the effort considerably.
3. Considering the semi-permanent result of planting trees this should neither be a beginner nor an easy skill.
4. There are quite some trees already on the map.
5. Lennier has offered to make more trees permanent should someone plant trees at the same location continuously.

Magdha Tiefenerz · Post by **Magdha Tiefenerz** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:50 am

Pellandria wrote:Could you maybe reduce the food consumption with farming aswell, atleast for a bit and reduce the fail rate with making flour, because last time I tried it its a constant failrate of around 20 flour, which is just annoying to reclick everytime, adds nothing to the game in my opinion aswell as harvesting, thrashing and flourmaking is eating alot of food.

Now I know those jobs ae hard to beginn with yes, but woodcutting, mining and other stuff is hard too and take less food, atleast from my point of view.

Reducing food consumption won't help the cooks much. What I want to say with this is, that you have to be careful adjusting things as it might have an effect somewhere else.

Darkshade · Post by **Darkshade** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:09 pm

Than who is Your char? pretty sure i`ve met him just cant remember who

Magdha Tiefenerz · Post by **Magdha Tiefenerz** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:12 pm

Darkshade wrote:Than who is Your char? pretty sure i`ve met him just cant remember who

Rekarafi · Post by **Rekarafi** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:30 pm

If i was meant, i can just say
foig

If you'll meet my char, you may notice that he needs handles.

Arabel · Post by **Arabel** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:46 pm

Is it possible to rename the second meat dish as 'steak dish'?
Having two dishes with the same name is causing problems with customers!

Pellandria · Post by **Pellandria** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:57 pm

Magdha Tiefenerz wrote: Reducing food consumption won't help the cooks much. What I want to say with this is, that you have to be careful adjusting things as it might have an effect somewhere else.

Which doesn't change the fact that a farmer can't bring up the coin that it takes to produce something and seel the products, thus every cook farms himself, just as there are not really real miners nor real woodcutters, its easier to produce an endproduct than to seel the products, but while there is almost everytime a opportunity to sellcoal and iron for a nice price and even wood, its almsot impossible for a farmer to price his items high enough to have atleast some coin.

Rekarafi · Post by **Rekarafi** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:50 pm

Farmer -> make hundreds/thousands of things grown daily (at a high skill)
Sell each a copper, or even 3 a copper, youll have at least some coin daily.

If you find a buyer, is another question. But its not like you dont produce a thing to make coins with.

Pellandria · Post by **Pellandria** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:42 pm

Even with just growing grain, one of the fastest growing crops with the best shed of all of them takes alot more time than going into a mine or cutting wood..that taken with the fact that it costs even more food to produce something than we seriously need to balance a few things.
If I need half or even 3/4 of the food I produce to produce it to beginn with, than something is clearly wrong.

Velisai · Post by **Velisai** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:05 pm

The main reason for starving farmers/crafters is the overly greedy attitude of a lot of players, especially those who sit on pile of gold from maps/monster grinding. 3 Tomatoes a copper? Seriously? I'd rather feed Bane's pigs with my harvest, than sell for such a price. Pay for a service or stop moaning about the lack of it.

Generally, I'd say any profession, which yields less than selling herbs to NPCs is doomed to be not taken up by anyone.

Is it possible to rename the second meat dish as 'steak dish'?
Having two dishes with the same name is causing problems with customers!

#me signs. They could be renamed to pork dish and steak dish respectively.

Magdha Tiefenerz · Post by **Magdha Tiefenerz** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:33 pm

We are about to change the subject into a discussion of Illarion economics. I'm not sure if this was intended by Hadrian.

Pellandria, I'm not against adjusting the food consumption of farming. I just wanted to point out that no adjustment should be considered isolated from the rest, that's all.

I have a farmer, who is fortunate enough to be a cook as well, and I can make enough money to buy new tools and some clothing from time to time by just selling my products to a NPC. Meanwhile I'm even good enough to save some money. I will not get rich this way but it works for me.

Btw. I think that 3 copper is too expensive for a tomato. The problem is that 1 Silver is almost nothing worth if there are some ways to earn hundreds of them in relatively short time. The whole economy in Illarion has to be adjusted, which is quite a difficult task.

Velisai · Post by **Velisai** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:09 pm

We were discussing 3 tomatoes for 1 copper, which is definitely far too low for the time it takes to grow them, even if you have 3 large fields at your disposal.

Anyway, good that selling to NPCs for a minimal profit works for you, but that cannot be said of the general playerbase. I don't see why anyone should spend hours farming and cooking (often in solitude) for just a few coppers. It can make sense IC for a not so bright char, who couldn't spell 'economics', but we all know that OOC boredom without reward is an activity killer.

That said, I think the game's economy system may be slightly unbalanced, but the main problem is in my eyes player attitude.
Adjusting food consumption for farm work will help a little, but the main problem will still be there. Cooked food is most useful for fighters and a lot of them are looking for it quite desperately, but are not ready to pay a worthwhile price. To change that, is beyond the scope of this thread though.

Magdha Tiefenerz · Post by **Magdha Tiefenerz** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:19 pm

Velisai wrote:We were discussing 3 tomatoes for 1 copper, which is definitely far too low for the time it takes to grow them, even if you have 3 large fields at your disposal.

Well, you don't have to watch the plants to grow. So, yes, it takes the plants some time to get to the stage where you can harvest them, but in the meantime you can do something else. This ranges from doing some RL activities where you can monitor the game to pursuing another occupation in the game, e.g. looking for herbs nearby if you don't want to leave the field alone. I think that this has to be considered when adjusting anything on farming because in that it is different compared to other crafts.

Velisai wrote:Anyway, good that selling to NPCs for a minimal profit works for you, but that cannot be said of the general playerbase.

Did I say so? I think 1-2 silver for half an hour playing isn't that bad. But maybe I'm just fortunate enough that my character doesn't need to purchase those expensive armours and weapons.