Proposal Forum

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Post by Tanistian_Kanea » Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:52 pm

Proposal Forum

I can no longer post there, what is going on?

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Post by Llama » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:16 pm

Weird, I'm not having that problem...

ADDED:

Bottom right you should have a list :

"You CAN post in this forum
You can't bla bla bla"

Does it say you can?

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Post by Olive » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:47 pm

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

I havethe same issue

Developer
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Post by Estralis Seborian » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:57 pm


Developer
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Post by Nitram » Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:02 pm

We are about to rename to board to "Llama board" and Hadrian already got the exclusive access rights.

:wink:

For the real issue you should check out the news on the homepage.

Nitram

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Post by Llama » Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:11 pm

Nitram wrote:We are about to rename to board to "Llama board" and Hadrian already got the exclusive access rights.
If anyone wants to propose anything llama-related, just talk to me :P

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Post by Alexander Knight » Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:18 pm

O will pay just to annoy people long into the night :twisted:

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Post by Llama » Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:28 pm

So this raises the question - what point does the Proposals forum have now?

News post said that the following people have access - "members of the society and active contributors".

Now 'active contributors' i assume are the devteam, GMs, and scripters - these already have access to Internal Proposals.

Members of the society - I have no idea.

So basically the proposal board currently serves no real purpose, as anything the A.C. want to propose goes in Internal, and the members of society probably have close ties to members of the A.C. (or are members), and can talk to them.

I'm all for integrating the proposals board to prevent it from being full of junk - that said, we're not really going to need it until after the VBU is implemented.

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Post by AlexRose » Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:59 pm

All that will happen is that General will become Proposals again like in ye olde days.

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Post by Tanistian_Kanea » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:00 pm

yeah so it sounds like if you could already post on the internal boards, now you're the only ones. I'd like to point out that even amongst alex's junk where some good ideas. you only need to assign someone, like llama boy to take them and put them on the internal board if the are any good. this change does not seem logical to me.

p.s. I have suggested that someone actually FILTER the proposals SEVERAL times before and everyone thought that it would be a waste of manpower. so let me make this perfectly clear. I COULD DO THIS. OR anyone else who a) has been playing for some time and b) has a BASIC knowledge of what is possible. being able to speak both languages would be preferable

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Post by AlexRose » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:02 pm

But whether a proposal is any good is entirely subject to opinion and even the most sensible people in this forum have suggested garbage and have naysayed good proposals in the past.

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Post by Rekarafi » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:03 pm

Thats the problem. Some ones will allow more posts then others...and they will get loads of PM's...and will get annoyed...and accept less proposes...

Dudes, dont frustrate yourself, open the board again!!!oneeleven

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Post by Alexander Knight » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:04 pm

Wouldnt it be better to give a few people who have scripting knowledge admin rights so they could look over the proposals and sort the ones that could and would be possible to do.

[edit] So we will only be left with proposals that we would be able to implement therefor narrowing it down [/edit]

Thats my opinion cos technically your making the users pay for the use of one of your features and considering some of the players are still in school and have no job i think it's a little unfair. But thats just my opinion
Last edited by Alexander Knight on Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by rakust dorenstkzul » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:05 pm

I was actually in the process of formulating an idea that would change the face of NPCs in Illa.

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Post by Vern Kron » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:12 pm

All your proposals are belong to us.

Seriously though, there is reasoning to this. Maybe its a temporary thing, anyway. That way the devs can focus on getting this really important stuff out, and then come back to the other changes. Instead of this VBU being turned into the IBU (impossibly big update).

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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:23 pm

I think it would actually be better if the proposal board would still allow discussions, just not new topics by random people.

There are several reasons for this:
Firstly, it would give your average player the possibility to voice his opinion over ideas that have been pre-screened by developers (to weed out the useless, spamtastic and plain crap suggestions) or directly from scripters/awesome people. I can see a situation where a scripter or dev would be interested in getting feedback for an idea.

Secondly, it might be handy for the gamemasters to gauge the player's opinions in certain situations. This might help to make the necessary adjustments, such as were made to the diet-system after the first implementation with negative aspects proved rather unpopular. However, in order such system to function in a satisfactory way, it is necessary that basically anyone is able to contribute into the discussions.

Thirdly is the fact that even people with supposedly intimate knowledge of the game or an aspect of it are no less capable of making mistakes, coming up with inane crap or having a tunnelvision (see, magic teaching) ;). Player input would, at least in my opinion, help to balance the groupthink which may result from the expert discussions. ;)

However, if this approach were to be taken, then I think that "Development" would be more apt name than "Proposals".

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Post by Faladron » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:24 pm

Nobody cared about

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=32035

When writing their proposal or replying to others.
I believe that's the reason for this change.

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Post by Tanistian_Kanea » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:36 am

in all honesty. i liked the way it worked. that nice little post is more for when the idea is more formed. the way proposal forums work now is someone comes up with a problem, and a basic idea of a solution. then a million people get together get together and actually come up with an idea. it's at this point that someone should write up that nice page and bring it to the attention of the devs. If they like it, then it should go on a TO DO list. meaning it will get done. maybe not now, but it will.

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Post by Keikan Hiru » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:26 am

In all honesty: Its irrelevant if you liked it or not.
The point is, it has to work for those you are working on the game. And it clearly does not.

This whole "I burp up a post and hope someone else refines it into a worthwhile idea" is what spelled doom for the proposal board.
Brainstorming and other forms of group therapy can be done in better situated places, places where no Developer has to endure reading them.
Once your group, if you need one, has come to a common ground, that is not "Pets would be cool.", write up a coherend post and present it.

Unfortunatly these kind of practices are just a dream of an utopia that will not become reality, thats why it's better to simply restrict access and have one less thing to worry about.

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Post by Olaf Tingvatn » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:10 pm

i think its a good idea..less clustercopulations and the likes.

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Post by Tanistian_Kanea » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:40 pm

then why not a brainstorming forum? and a proposal forum?

first is to rough out ideas.
second is to actually present them.

(see, this is the kinda proposal/brainstorming thing i'm talking about. i brought up a problem/question, had question answered. presented solution for problem, solution got declined, now another solution to be discussed)

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Post by pharse » Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:21 pm

go to off topic forum or IRC chat.

Then send your elaborated proposal to a developer of your choice. Or post it in the proposals forum, if you have access to it.

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Post by AlexRose » Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:24 pm

Pharse, off topic is for stuff not related to illarion. That's why it's OFF TOPIC. Grab a dictionary some time.

Proposals used to be put on General because A. They don't get deleted after x days. B. They are related to illarion.

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Post by Sonara Stone » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:50 pm

I think the proposals should all be sent to gm's, and if approved put on the board for discussion. My two copper.

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Post by pharse » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:10 pm

AlexRose wrote:Pharse, off topic is for stuff not related to illarion. That's why it's OFF TOPIC. Grab a dictionary some time.

Proposals used to be put on General because A. They don't get deleted after x days. B. They are related to illarion.
You didn't spend another thought on that one than "OH MY GOSH IT IS CALLED off topic HE IS TOO STOOPID TO GET THAT", aye?

Why has the proposals board been closed? Because it was spammed with useless proposals.
So you really suggest to shift all that uselesness just right into the general board? Aw great idea.


Why in off topic?
Because there everyone can discuss. If it is another useless post, it just disappears. If not then it will be frequently posted in it so it won't disappear for some time (longer than just one week). Enough time to summarize the idea and produce an elaborated proposal which can e.g. be sent to a dev.
=> It's all there, no need for any change in the boards. One could also call this "players' initiative".

Why not in off topic?
BECAUSE IT IS CALLED OFF TOPIC BUT IT IS RELATED TO ILLARION!!!!111

Oh right, now I get your point, Alex. Silly me.

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Post by AlexRose » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:25 pm

You know just as well as I do noone's gonna give the idea to a dev.

Don't even spout your bs around, Pharse; the illarion boards survived long without the proposals board with proposals in general and people know that you don't piss about with crap, useless proposals in the General boards. All the proposals board did was encourage people to post every little tiny thing that occured to them even though 99% of it was useless. If you remember, before the proposals board, all proposals would generally be at least 3 paragraphs of in depth elaboration of thie idea and pros and cons, then people would have a sensible discussion about it, rather than "lol I want pets!" "we don't have the manpower!" "I don't want pets ingame!". Keeping the old system would work just fine and that's clearly seen from history. Off Topic is not the place for sensible discussions; it's effectively for a bit of light hearted witty banter, spam, religious, philosophical and political debates and general randomness. I can't believe you're so quick to forget how the old system of proposing ideas was entirely unproblematic.

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Post by Vern Kron » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:05 am

If thats truely the issue:

Get more moderaters, I'm sure that there are some available. I know of one at least.
And get stricter rules on the proposal forum.
And don't be afraid to ban people from it.

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Post by Tanistian_Kanea » Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:58 am

let me spell this out, because this seems to have been lost somewhere.

proposal forum = good
being kicked from forum = bad

proposal forum = abused
being kicked from forum = won't make people happy

good solution = ?

i have proposed TWO things. people seem not like/ignored

We need a solution. I have tried. now when i look at this tomorrow i want to see ideas on how to fix this problem not just jibber jabber describing how others are proposing bad ideas. if it's not an idea to fix this problem, or a modification to the idea i don't want to see it. end of story.

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Post by Vern Kron » Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:07 am

Thank you, for this call to action and demanding in a condescending tone. We all appreciate it.

However, your demands won't get squat done.

My opinion:
If there is spam, let a moderator clean it up. Simple as that.
If it is a temporary pause, then write down your idea and hold on to it! Or pass it along to a dev.

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Post by Pellandria » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:40 am

Keikan Hiru wrote:In all honesty: Its irrelevant if you liked it or not.
The point is, it has to work for those you are working on the game. And it clearly does not.
While I understand the whole problem with the small and more or less useless proposals, its still the same action taken like the pregnancy, a few persons misbehave and now we kick the whole community out. Another thing that strikes me as bad is that you now effectly create two seperated groups in Illa one who is paying and have more right and one who just uses the game fo free, while I'm all for giving the payers more rights for..well whatever they decide in the closed boards, I have a problem with just allowing Members to post there, because with that you break two of the new rules...you take an important part away from most of the players thus not giving them the chance to "shape the game", while you create a two class community at the same time, breaking the "everyone is equal" rule thats new on the market.

Looking at the Proposal board you can also see how alot of things got rejected in the post, but found their way ~into~ the game anyway, while others who where considered good still aren't anywhere too see or just let us take small proposals that just enhance the game a little, instead of bringing huge new updates into the game.

Lets take for example something thats bothering me for ages, the volume and weigthrestrictions on bags are something I personally dislike, because I use bags inside of my depots, as many others, to store more and more things, the weigth or volume requierment however creates a situation where I need several bags just for clothings..for weapons and so on.
I can just store 500 Cherrys in one bag and maybe 100 Apples to go along with, but I'm allowed to store several complete suits of armor in each bag, kinda defeats the purpose in my eyes. So just give us some storage unit that can hold an infinite number of things, because the weigth limit of chars caring things around is limited by their strength anyway.

See a small proposal that might or might not be included, but it effectly would never get to an gm attention because their attributs are skyrocketing trougth the air anyway and they do not even need to use bags as they can just create what they want on the spot.

To clean out the proposal board ther ecould be several ways of course..some moderator, who thins out the most useless ones or those proposals that keep on repeating "pets/babys and so on" and just leave the ones that atleast should be discussed or you simply restrict posting for those who misbehave.

If this is planned just to shut up people till the big update comes along, than you should keep it closed for now.

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