Starting Skills

Sonara Stone · Post by **Sonara Stone** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:50 am

Seriously Silo, you keep saying exactly my opinion before I get a chance too. (Its a good thing, because on a scale of 1-10 my tact level is a 0)

Silo · Post by **Silo** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:00 am

*is trying very hard to be tactful*

Sonara Stone · Post by **Sonara Stone** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:40 am

Silo wrote:*is trying very hard to be tactful*

Good. Because I can't *makes pathetic puppy-dog face*

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:41 am

Please, limit your posts to proposals or proposals on proposals. After all, the developers will decide on this. But it becomes difficult to read such a topic if there are dozens of posts with no proposal inside.

And yes, this proposal is taken seriously, it is not the first of this kind, though. And yes, a start up skill of 75% or such is beyond what any developer of this game will implement. Anything below 20 could be considered, but beyond, save your ink

.

Alexander Knight · Post by **Alexander Knight** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:31 am

Even 20% i think is too much.
If you want skill to match your RP then PG a little...
I'm sure if you got a valid RP reason the GM's wont mind so much.
But i think you have to wok for your skill and honor.
I mean you cant walk into town and be respected straight away, you have to pro ve your worth and the same with skill... Practice makes perfect

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:44 am

That argument would be valid, Alexander, if the players were only allowed to make characters who just left thier home at the age of 18, without having any background at all.

Creating a character at the age of 50, with him being a baker for the most part of his life, should grant him some skill points in "Cooking & Backing".

While I would never propose to link the age of a created character to the number of initial skill points said character recieves, I just want to point out how flawed your argument is.

At the very end it boils down once again to the question(s):
1) Is the MC system going to be changed?
2) How fast will you gain skill in the advanced (>50%) levels?
3) How even are the products spread accross the skill levels?
4) How does this profession compare towards the others?

Taking these factors into account, I wouldn't mind anybody starting with up to 40% skill in his or her main profession.
There is so much to think about, before one could slap a label on a profession and exclaim:
"You'll be starting with 35% of Cooking & Backing!"

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:44 am

Right, so the solution is -

"Don't play your character, just go in the wilderness, avoid everyone and stay working your **** off until you're skilled enough to play your character properly"

This aint n00bscape.

ADDED: Ninja'ed by Keikan

Post by **Nitram** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:56 pm

We should bind the amount of skills a character gets to the selected age.

Then we get nothing bug OLD characters

Arvemor · Post by **Arvemor** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:16 pm

Lol, I hope not, Nitram.

I just wanna say I agree with this proposal, and everything Silo said. And Sonara.

Mesha · Post by **Mesha** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:17 pm

But what if we set it so that any character that ages above the age of 50 (by human standards) gets a steep drop in stats?! That should fix that problem for ya.

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:28 pm

old age => higher amount of initial skill points, but slower learning speed.
Just an idea.

Olive · Post by **Olive** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:03 pm

actually, starting at 30, which is just above the threshold for the 'practise exp' gained from smelting/log sawing/cloth making". would make sense for a new char that is taking a crafting starter package, but i would ALSO make it so their startign equip is not total junk ;)

warrior types, one skill, their primary combat skill for their chosen acked at say 25, and then 1-2 others at 15% would make a fair bit of sense. The person shoudl have more skill then somebody who JUST decided their goal in life is to try that profession, but probably not excessively so.

As for the age link, uhhh no, this would be seriously unbalanced between the races, not to mention that not everbody views a particular age for a specifc race from the ame refrence point.

Taliss Kazzxs · Post by **Taliss Kazzxs** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:29 pm

I say, if it's not broken don't fix it.

The current setup is just fine and dandy, if you want average skill and your a new char, just train or craft for a day.

Saigwin · Post by **Saigwin** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:46 pm

How about at creation you just pick your package lets say a cook and then are given a percentage say 20% and you put those points where ever you want with 10% having to go in your main skill , in this case cooking and baking. Some cooks may learn some herblore or farming, some may have skill poking daggers into meat. some may even be able to cut their own wood or catch their own fish. I would not go over 20% total though.

If you pick a Paladin maybe you could also be able to smith a new dagger or two , or your skill with a shield is better then a regular fighter's. Perhaps a Farmer can hit a rabbit with an arrow as a boy.

My two copper.

Tanistian_Kanea · Post by **Tanistian_Kanea** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:23 pm

i would like to see >25% in at least one skill.

but ultimately i think these are numbers that the devs need to come up with. not the players. because it is already evident the players will not come to a concensus. i understand it is good to hear all the players voices, but this is something for the higher powers to decide. and for that i would like to hear their ideas for numbers AND i would like to see the CURRENT numbers. (honestly, how many times do i have to point out it is easier to change something when you can actually see what it is?)

Sonara Stone · Post by **Sonara Stone** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:01 am

I agree with Tanistian_Kanea. If this is really getting taken seriously, then I think the developers should be in charge.

dwarvesarecool · Post by **dwarvesarecool** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:36 am

Only if people who already have characters gain level ups in all applicable skills!

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:41 am

I am not a developer, but I take this topic seriously. But: I see absolutely no reason for changing the world without a proper reason. That it takes like forever to get a decent skill level is not an issue to be solved like "give everyone 75% of skill at startup plz". This is not how the world works; if your car has a leak and you lose oil, you don't invent a mechanism that pours in oil each ten minutes. But you fix this freaking leak!

So, I'd like to repeat myself; we have starting packages. There, you can assign start up skills for each "class", usually around 5%-10% of selected skills. Those numbers were made up on the fly and could use an improvement. This takes, like, five minutes (around the same time as I use to write this!). So - concrete proposals can be implemented in five minutes. If a developer has to make up the proposal himself, it takes longer and also, what is the use of a proposal where you propose that somebody should propose something?

I'd like to stress that high start up skills are beyond reason. This is not a life simulation but a game. Much fun is gained from developing a character, starting as sucking noob and ending up as Lord of Whateverton. Guess why all those anime-grinding games have 1000-10000 times as many players as Illarion. They offer absolutely no motivation beyond exploring and grinding for gold and XP. Illarion has more to offer; but is that a reason to neglect fun creating elements?

Anyway. Since this thread has reached its 2nd page, I doubt any developer will really read it...

Achae Eanstray · Post by **Achae Eanstray** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:20 am

If I am understanding you right Estralis, a rough idea:

General class fighter: Paladin, Knight, Barbarian startup packages:
Parry
Dodge
Tactic
5% startup skills when picked.
(left out slashing etc. since they are fairly easy to pick up)
_______________________
Mage:
Commotio
Desicio
Pervestigatio
(puposefully left out the other skills since these would probably be the first ones needed)
5% startup skills when picked
_________________________
Druid
herb lore
library research
alchemy
5% with the startup package
_________________________
Bard
Lute
Flute
Harp
5% with startup package
___________________________
Cook
Cooking and baking
farming
herb lore
5% with startup package

___________________________
added:
Archer
Dodge
Tactic
Distance
5% with startup package when picked

I am not familiar with the other startup packages/crafts to fill those in.

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:42 am

That's my list, as written down on this board in 09/2009:

Knight: Slashing weapons 10, parry 5, tactics 5
Paladin: Parry 10, concussion weapons 5, tactics 5
Ranger: Tactics 10, distance weapons 5, herb lore 5
Archer: Distance weapons 10, puncture weapons 5, tactics 5
Barbarian: Concussion weapons 10, dodge 5, parry 5
Thief: Dodge 10, puncture weapons 5, tactics 5
Battle Mage: Concussion weapons 10, library research 5, magic resistance 5
Mage: Library research 10, magic resistance 5, puncture weapons 5
Druid: Alchemy 10, herb lore 5, concussion weapons 5
Bard: Lute 10, harp 5, flute 5 (to be changed upon introduction of bard magic)
Priest: Concussion weapons 10, parry 5, library research 5 (to be changed upon introduction of priest magic)
Miner: Mining 10, gem grinding 5, blacksmithing 5
Farmer: Peasantry 10, herb lore 5, cooking 5
Cook: Cooking 10, herb lore 5, peasantry 5
Tailor: Tailoring 10, puncture weapons 5, herb lore 5
Blacksmith: Blacksmithing 10, finesmithing 5, gem grinding 5
Carpenter: Carpentry 10, lumberjacking 5, herb lore 5

So, one skill on 10, two at 5, same for all, basta. That is not much, some starting packages have more currently, others don't. But it is balanced, fair and reasonable.

Post by **Jupiter** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:27 pm

Estralis Seborian wrote:So, one skill on 10, two at 5, same for all, basta. That is not much, some starting packages have more currently, others don't. But it is balanced, fair and reasonable.

And useless.

What is the function of starting skills? To show a player which skills he needs to improve? No.
And 10% or 5% are more like a joke currently.
Maybe if we had a linear line of skilling it would be useful.

AlexRose · Post by **AlexRose** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:05 pm

Make it so if you have an old char he has tonnes of skills but every day he forgets some

Grokk · Post by **Grokk** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:24 pm

Estralis Seborian wrote:Much fun is gained from developing a character, starting as sucking noob and ending up as Lord of Whateverton.

I agree, character development through RP = fun. Mindless clicking to increase a set of numbers =/ fun. Becoming Lord of Whateverton shouldn't be the result of increasing some numbers.

Estralis Seborian wrote:Guess why all those anime-grinding games have 1000-10000 times as many players as Illarion. They offer absolutely no motivation beyond exploring and grinding for gold and XP.

Better graphics. Smoother running game. Regular updates. Quicker, more enjoyable levelling up. Better marketing. Social aspect. More money. Not targeting a niche of gamers. You can't put their success down to an intense grind, otherwise Illarion should be just as popular.

Estralis Seborian wrote:Illarion has more to offer; but is that a reason to neglect fun creating elements?

I disagree, Illarion is nothing different than an RP dedicated server belonging to any one of a hundred other games.

Anyway. Since this thread has reached its 2nd page, I doubt any developer will really read it...[/quote]

Are you serious? Sorry, I haven't been here long enough to know if you are joking about this.

Arvemor · Post by **Arvemor** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:28 pm

Taliss Kazzxs wrote:I say, if it's not broken don't fix it.

The current setup is just fine and dandy, if you want average skill and your a new char, just train or craft for a day.

That's all well and good, but some of us can't play for long periods of time. If I only have about 2 hours every day or so, I don't wanna be powergaming the whole time.

Tanistian_Kanea · Post by **Tanistian_Kanea** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:28 am

Estralis Seborian wrote:That's my list, as written down on this board in 09/2009:

Knight: Slashing weapons 10, parry 5, tactics 5
Paladin: Parry 10, concussion weapons 5, tactics 5
Ranger: Tactics 10, distance weapons 5, herb lore 5
Archer: Distance weapons 10, puncture weapons 5, tactics 5
Barbarian: Concussion weapons 10, dodge 5, parry 5
Thief: Dodge 10, puncture weapons 5, tactics 5
Battle Mage: Concussion weapons 10, library research 5, magic resistance 5
Mage: Library research 10, magic resistance 5, puncture weapons 5
Druid: Alchemy 10, herb lore 5, concussion weapons 5
Bard: Lute 10, harp 5, flute 5 (to be changed upon introduction of bard magic)
Priest: Concussion weapons 10, parry 5, library research 5 (to be changed upon introduction of priest magic)
Miner: Mining 10, gem grinding 5, blacksmithing 5
Farmer: Peasantry 10, herb lore 5, cooking 5
Cook: Cooking 10, herb lore 5, peasantry 5
Tailor: Tailoring 10, puncture weapons 5, herb lore 5
Blacksmith: Blacksmithing 10, finesmithing 5, gem grinding 5
Carpenter: Carpentry 10, lumberjacking 5, herb lore 5

So, one skill on 10, two at 5, same for all, basta. That is not much, some starting packages have more currently, others don't. But it is balanced, fair and reasonable.

quick read over it looks good, now how about double/triple everything.

Silo · Post by **Silo** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:50 am

I believe I did make a post with concrete numbers... I asked for suggestions and I really didn't get too much input. Tell me if those numbers are good, Estralis, and I'll make them for all other professions. Don't make a post critizing posters and not making any suggestions-- I believe that just makes you a hypocrite. I do thank you for the post after, though. Knowing what they're at currently will help to change them.

Is 25% too high for a skill to start out at? 20%?

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:19 pm

Actually, the concrete list I wrote down is an old post of mine, just quoted. See:

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=31849

I have no idea what makes me a hypocrite in this context, sorry.

But I agree; there was not much valuable input on your data. Just some general statements. Nevertheless, Jupiter's statement holds somehow true; combined with the statements of Keikan, we can boil this down to "1st change the wrecked skill system, 2nd adjust start up skills". What does NOT work: "Leave skill system as it is and adjust start up skills". What could work: "1st adjust start up skill to common sense and 2nd fix skill system according to the same common sense".

Grokk · Post by **Grokk** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:22 pm

How about this then:

Starting skills are increased: the primary skill up to 30, secondary skills to 20.

AND the skill system is altered to decrease the effect of skill level.

Imagine (for the purposes of this example) a character's fighting strength is represented by a single number. At the moment let's say that a brand spanking new character has a strength of 1. A yellow character has a strength of 100. The yellow character will always win one-on-one and will win no matter how many blues you attack him with. I propose that we bring these figures closer together. Say a blue becomes 20 and a yellow 50. The yellow still wins one-on-one. The yellow will probably still win two-on-one. Three-on-one will be a tough, good fight. Four-on-one, the blues are going to pull through.

Advantages

Characters can have a backstory.
New characters become useful, they can actually help out and get involved in roleplay.
Powergaming is no longer necessary. Yes, people will still do it. But they will always do it.
There will not be any god-like characters.
More roleplaying options.
People will have less of a problem agreeing to perma-death for their character.[/u]

Alexander Knight · Post by **Alexander Knight** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:34 pm

Agreed but i think it should be harder to level.... maybe instead of yellow it should go to red

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:24 pm

@ Grokk

Stop looking for easy ways out. If your character is a warrior and you don't want' to train him to make him stronger then your character will suck. No game it going to start you off at 1/4th your respect lvls just so you can play lazy. Nor is any game going to create a shrink between the values of skills just so you can be even MORE lazy.

The only God-like characters are GM characters, otherwise there is nothing stopping you from achieving the same levels of skills and abilities as every other character, there is no limitation on skill for some and not for others.

This proposal isn't even about fighting skills but starting packages, stop trying to push your own agenda and stick to topic.

ANYWAY

I would say the absolute maximum skill any starting package should have is 15% with all others between 5-10%.

I can't think of any other game that starts players off with 1/4th of there max values (roughly equal to a 1-100 leveler starting you at level 25) so i see no reason for illarion to do something that extreme.