The Armour Problem

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Post by Llama » Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:27 am

The Armour Problem

From the mini-survey I put in the general board - I obtained these results

Where to obtain Armour:
Armours from Smiths 9
Armours from Maps 4
Armours from Loot 7
Other 7
While smiths are the most 'popular' option, almost half of the armours around do not come from smiths. Other includes 'gifts', so they're just there for completness - but do not push the trend towards a particular direction.

Most worryingly however was this-

Time with armour:
Less than 1 month 4
1-3 months 7
3-6 months 6
6 or more 5
Unestimatable 5
Note that 'less than 1 month' can also mean that a cheaper armour was purchased, and is not in use - or a fighter has not been around for long enough.

The fact that armour can last for 6 or more months - is a very problematic statistic. Smiths earn most of their money selling armour - which takes the majority of their resources and is the basis of most of their 'training productions'.

Fighters bring in the most money into the economy - and if their only purchase is a 20 silver armour every 6 real life months, then it results in a lot of hoarding, and newer smiths not finding any work - nor will money travel downwards in the system (Fighter > Smith > Miner)

Therefore, I propose the following:

1. Armour should not last so much anymore. An armour replacement every real life month is reasonable.
2. Armour found from monster/map drops should not serve more than 'practice' disposable armour. If a single map gives the fighter a bunch of cash, and no need to spend it anywhere (since you also get magical weapons and armour which will last 6 months) - all you get is richer fighters, poorer everyone else.

Disssscus.

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Post by Grokk » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:06 am

Re: The Armour Problem

I agree that 6 months RL is too long for armour to be lasting. However, not even 1/5th of the people surveyed had their armour last this long. Does armour deteriorate because of time or usage?

1. seems like a sensible option to make sure that armour doesn't last such a long period of time. But if people are having to replace their armour once a month, won't this just cause a decrease in the market price? Obviously I don't know how Illarion's economy works, but I would be prepared to pay a lot more for armour if I was only having to replace it every 6 months than if I was buying a new suit every month.

I think the problem is more that there simply aren't enough players to sell to.


What I found most worrying about the survey was that almost everyone was wearing one of two different kinds of armour. It seems very anti-RP when people are just trying to make their character the best it can be through the game mechanics. I take my hat off to those wearing some scummy leather or simple chainmail.

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Post by ogerawa » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:06 am

hrm.. wait for new fighting system then wait like another 1-3 months after the system in place? there should be some changes... i guess

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Post by Llama » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:08 am

ogerawa wrote:hrm.. wait for new fighting system then wait like another 1-3 months after the system in place? there should be some changes... i guess
You. #illarion. NOW

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Post by Llama » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:14 am

Re: The Armour Problem

Grokk wrote:I agree that 6 months RL is too long for armour to be lasting. However, not even 1/5th of the people surveyed had their armour last this long. Does armour deteriorate because of time or usage?
Armour deteriorates due to usage. However from personal experience - that doesn't happen fast enough. The survey 'proved' that.

The survey's result 'problem' is this - If I afforded a crappy armour - I will defentally change it as soon as possible. But if I'm an old character and I dug up something high-end - I will keep it till it breaks or its not good enough. So while you said 1/5th - it doesn't work so clearly.
1. seems like a sensible option to make sure that armour doesn't last such a long period of time. But if people are having to replace their armour once a month, won't this just cause a decrease in the market price? Obviously I don't know how Illarion's economy works, but I would be prepared to pay a lot more for armour if I was only having to replace it every 6 months than if I was buying a new suit every month.
Well, technically that IS how economies work - but there is always the fact that you need stuff to make the armour - so it won't fall so quickly. In addition, the amount of money you'd gain spending a month of hunting - would more than cover the armour cost. I don't think it'd cause a drop in armour price personally.
I think the problem is more that there simply aren't enough players to sell to.
I agree, I'm just trying to squeeze the most I can,
What I found most worrying about the survey was that almost everyone was wearing one of two different kinds of armour. It seems very anti-RP when people are just trying to make their character the best it can be through the game mechanics. I take my hat off to those wearing some scummy leather or simple chainmail.
Its always the way things work. If there are 5 smiths only, and all can make armour A B or C - the first smith to produce armour D will cause everyone to demand armour D. People always want the best they get. First it used to be silversteel - then someone got a hold of some shadowplate (Mark made it?) - now everyone wants shadowplate. New fighting system will change that somewhat, but the main problem is still there.

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Post by Velisai » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:40 pm

1. Armor and clothing should both degrade more quickly. At the moment it either doesn't degrade at all or so slowly, that you do not even notice.

2. Monster drops should generally contain less finished goods and never very good or excellent things.

3. All magical weapons should be producible.

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Post by Llama » Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:47 pm

Velisai wrote:3. All magical weapons should be producible.
This will be the case when the VBU is implemented. They will of course require rare magical components to make.
-

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Post by Taiah » Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:21 pm

ogerawa wrote:hrm.. wait for new fighting system then wait like another 1-3 months after the system in place? there should be some changes... i guess
/agree

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Post by Taliss Kazzxs » Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:49 pm

Keep in mind, at the moment armor deterioration is currently switched off. I'm sure after the update it will be switched back on and the armor problem (as mentioned) will not exist.

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Post by ltgmkay » Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:04 pm

whoah. dead (lizard)man talking.


And really i think that at least some monster drops should give you those good items, otherwise why fight dragons, liches, etc.?

I agree, probably the prices wil drop some, but not enough to be worrisome. After all, more smiths will have more customers.

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Post by Kranek » Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:10 pm

you fight dragons and liches for the honor, the prestige!

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Post by AlexRose » Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:25 pm

Yeah, sure. More like for the skill.

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Post by Kranek » Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:46 pm

Kranek wrote:you fight dragons and liches for the honor, the prestige!
...and the skill!

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Post by Taiah » Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:02 pm

Give me copper and loot anyday! :twisted:

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Post by Llama » Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:18 pm

Taliss Kazzxs wrote:Keep in mind, at the moment armor deterioration is currently switched off. I'm sure after the update it will be switched back on and the armor problem (as mentioned) will not exist.
Switched off? What? Why?

Huh!?

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Post by Athian » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:05 pm

I can't think of even a dozen blacksmiths who have the skill needed to make the kinds of armor people really desire. So the idea that money of a smtihs money was made in armor i think is nonsense.

Smiths money comes from weapons more then armor as they were replaced much sooner then armor parts were. The problem here however is that we have some weapons (serinjah swords *cough*) that are rediculously popular and drop in excellent used->new quality from monsters. Nothing stimulates the diversity in the weapons people use currently and the staple weapon for 80% of the population is dropped.

When it came down to it smithing armor was incredibly taxing and labor intensive, which is probably the reason why most beginner smiths i met stopped shortly after they could produce most of the weapons (which you will be able to do likely before you can create half the ig armor). It required possibly large amounts of various items and that meant the smith also needed to be a miner/tanner/fine-smith/lumberjack/carpenter etc if he wanted to support his craft on his own. leaving little space in his learning cap for the actual smithing.

And as far as I could tell this was one of the reasons we never had any good smiths, So a minority of super smiths might have made armor money but the majority did not.

I'd personally rather buy my armor from NPC's as opposed to player smiths, simply for the fact that i can be sure of the quality of the armor (whatever it be, it's consistant) and the fact that the NPC's are around all the time. Looking for illusive smiths is frustrating. I'd think the entire aspect of black smithing would need a tune up to attract and sustain a player base willing to keep up the craft.

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Post by Llama » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:28 pm

Athian wrote:I can't think of even a dozen blacksmiths who have the skill needed to make the kinds of armor people really desire. So the idea that money of a smtihs money was made in armor i think is nonsense.
Everyone wants Silversteel, Magic Elven or Shadowplate. In certian (rare?) cases - people will settle for light elven armour. I blame the popularity of those above armours due to their ease-of-obtaining from maps.

Nobody asks for Dwarven State armour (which is higher than Shadowplate) - simply because you can't get it as spoils of war.

You have forgotten that there are boots, gloves, helms and leggings which can be made by not-so-good smiths, and you can make them in excellent quality much before you can make any of those armours.
Smiths money comes from weapons more then armor as they were replaced much sooner then armor parts were.
I dunno. I sell my weapons for 1-2 silvers. I'm sure other smiths' prices are in the same range. Its hardly a large amount of money, though in certain cases people do buy multiple weapons. Chest armour I sell for 10-25 silvers - which is much more. If only.
When it came down to it smithing armor was incredibly taxing and labor intensive, which is probably the reason why most beginner smiths i met stopped shortly after they could produce most of the weapons (which you will be able to do likely before you can create half the ig armor). It required possibly large amounts of various items and that meant the smith also needed to be a miner/tanner/fine-smith/lumberjack/carpenter etc if he wanted to support his craft on his own. leaving little space in his learning cap for the actual smithing.
Its not so bad to be honest. Most armour need iron and leather. Certain more complex armour needs copper - and then you end up with some needing gems, gold or dye - but its otherwise very neatly done in my opinion.
I'd personally rather buy my armor from NPC's as opposed to player smiths, simply for the fact that i can be sure of the quality of the armor (whatever it be, it's consistant) and the fact that the NPC's are around all the time. Looking for illusive smiths is frustrating. I'd think the entire aspect of black smithing would need a tune up to attract and sustain a player base willing to keep up the craft.
That's a problem sadly. Catch 22 situation. If nobody buys from smiths, then you can't support a large smith population. If you need a nice spangly armour, you could use the trading board or 'dove' your favourite smiths.

If you want more good smiths around - buy from smiths. Its how economies work.

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Post by Velisai » Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:48 am

Everyone wants Silversteel, Magic Elven or Shadowplate. In certian (rare?) cases - people will settle for light elven armour. I blame the popularity of those above armours due to their ease-of-obtaining from maps.

Nobody asks for Dwarven State armour (which is higher than Shadowplate) - simply because you can't get it as spoils of war.
Maybe you should as a smith know which of your armours are good in which situation and give people advice? There are so many different suits in any weight class, how should a fighter know which is really the best for him unless he orders them all in excellent quality and tries them out. That is why people settle for the types which are widely known.

As for weapons, Serinjah swords are so popular, because they are the best slashing weapon for skilling, due to the high attack rate and are easily obtainable in very good quality from the same monster you grind for your skill.

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Post by Charles Kingblood » Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:42 pm

I wouldn't mind having to replace my armor fairly often and paying a smith for it. as a warrior(new as well) still trying to figure out how a warrior makes his money without becoming a smith or carpenter or something like that. I'm wanting to make my warrior a warrior I don't mind spending money stimulating the illarion economy. i mean really there is no point in getting rich then...doing nothing with your money.

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Post by Silo » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:44 pm

Yeah, it must be because the armor degrading's turned off... But I've had an elven light for a good month or two, with consistant training... it hasn't even gone down in durability yet.

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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:01 pm

Now, something that I thought might be worthwhile to play around with..

"Made to fit".

Imagine that player-smiths would be able to "tailor make" an armor to the specific measures of the customer. This would require the target-character to be present as the crafting of the armor is begun (or some other alternative system, such as using a parchment on character to "get the measures") and the resulting armor would be coded to have a specific effect when your character wears it. When someone else wears it, it acts like a normal armor.

Effects would be:
10-20% higher defensive values in comparison to a normal armor
Description: "You see -armor name-, made for your measures", when you click the item.


Incentive to buy from smiths, no? And the positive kind of incentive people might appreciate..

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Post by Llama » Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:42 pm

If the datavalue is large enough to hold in the character number - then this is possible.

And it'll be quite a great idea too :)

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Post by Kranek » Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:44 pm

NOt the charnumber.
2 Persons the same size, weight and sex should be able to wear the same armor. And those values could be saved in the 3 digits open for datavalues.

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Post by Llama » Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:47 pm

Kranek wrote:2 Persons the same size, weight and sex should be able to wear the same armor. And those values could be saved in the 3 digits open for datavalues.
And race.

Its going to be very very very VERY complicated to put this in, and then what? then you click on the armour it says "Armour to fit 1.60, 90kg, 1503, elfess" ?

Far far too complicated, for nothing.

You also forgot physical body, 160 90kg can mean a fat short guy, or a short guy who's muscular as anything.

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Post by Kranek » Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:55 pm

First number: Size
Second number: weight (we should ignore the figure-thing for that ;) )
Third Number:
1 = Male human, elf, orc
2 = Female human, elf, orc
3 = Male dwarf, halfling
4 = Female dwarf, halfling
5 = Lizard
7 = Gnome

If you click on an armor, it either is normal "rusty old chainmail" or "a rusty old chainmail fitting your body"


wait...the data-value is already in usage -.-
is it possible to increase it? ^^

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Post by pharse » Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:08 pm

Simply storing the character ID is way easier than implementing dress sizes with bonus for fitting etc...

We could use one of the data sets implemented by Cass. If it does not turn out that this brings the server performance down....

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Post by Llama » Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:08 pm

And what is the point of all this? Just in case there are two people who have the exact same thing?

--

Allright, we assume we divide weight and size into 10 categories so we can convert them into a single digit

so every single time the system needs to check it has to-

divide once to get the first digit - multiple by a value, run a pair of comparison
divide once again to get the second digit - multiply by a value, run a pair of comparision
divide again, in order to get last digit - run a pair of comparisons to get the race, another pare to get the gender

If they all match - act.

It'll just add extra work to code, extra work for the system - and just so if you have a GIANT COINCIDENCE of two people with the exact same stats, they can use the armour?

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Post by Kevin Lightdot » Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:10 pm

Omgliek I use plate armour look at me I'm different.

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Post by Llama » Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:14 pm

Kevin Lightdot wrote:look at me I'm different.
Of course you are, you're green.

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Post by Velisai » Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:55 am

Weight, hight and all that isn't necessary, Cromwell's proposal is fine as it is and I would love to see it in game some day, if possible.

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