A question!

[Athian]

I don't tell people "how to think", Athian, i argued. In fact, that's also kinda what you are doing there. To be specifically, i gave reasons on why the prince's RP did fit into the game world. Plus, Illarion is a completely different world than ours ! Our world's wars and their tactics and experiences from those have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with and should not be compared with Illarion. Ever.

Of course they do. where do you think the concepts behind Illarion (and any game) come from. The real world. Everything about this game from it's basest feature to its most complex concepts is based somehow in real world. They certainly run paralelle but of course some things are going to be reminiscent of real life because in real life there are such things as good idea's and stupid idea's. Can no culture in illarion have a good idea just because it was done IRL? naah i don't think so chief^^

then i guess we can't have, sword fighting, magic, gods, craftsmenship, archery, fishing, tailoring, knighthoods, governments or cheese wiz (okay maybe not the last one) because sadly, they all these concepts came from the real world...

Don't try to draw the fine line right where you want it just so you can be right ^^ thats just dumb.

But enough of that. Yea some people didn't like the quest. THE QUEST in itself was kinda ugly and shoddy and tacky (IMO)

Otherwise we can't really access what the results of the quest are going to be like. lets give a a few months then argue again later^^

[Kamilar]

P.S. Kalimar: I cannot RP with two people at the same time, especially not when the NPCs I am talking through are immobile, and you are asking my NPCs for what appeared to be a night out. Also, didn't you walk away after my guard told you off? It was late in Europe, and I was heading to bed. I have a real life, and I cannot do everything. I have been ingame a lot in the past few weeks just to RP every single role there was around this quest, all the while having to write essays. I do hope I have your understanding in this.

Send me a PM if you want to discuss further. This thread is too flamey to sift through and the negative cultural remarks are pissing me off.

[Dyluck]

Actually Salathe, I do disagree that there is any cultural ignorance here. You probobly wouldn't even know if I lied and said I was Amercian myself all along. Amercian mass media is prevalent to everyone around the globe, and the theme of freedom and democracy is transparent and highly obvious. Are you implying the opposite and saying that Americans hate freedom and love dictators? No, of course not. Like many others you are likely just conditioned to be offended when a specific culture is mentioned, especially your own, because it "feels" like the right thing to do.

If I had just said "Western" culture, you probably wouldn't even have bothered to respond. Like I said, we don't even disagree that Americans love freedom, but you just got caught up in the rhetoric when what you actually disagreed on was only the question of whether or not it influences the behavior of their characters.

[Kamilar]

Dyluck -- what has your opinion of American culture to do with the Salkamar quest? Please clear that up for me.

[Dyluck]

Sure, I'll clear that up. It was actually an opinion about "english players" in Illarion.

In the original post, Mesha wondered why it is mostly "english" players who are OOC against him and his quest. I claim that this is because most "english" players are so naturally accustomed to the importance of freedom and anti-dictatorship in social life and media, that they expect the same for their characters. When their characters are oppressed and can't win, the players themselves will feel a loss of control and feel that this is an OOC injustice. They refuse to accept any scenarios in-game that do not eventually reset to the default situation of their characters being free from oppressive rule. Of course, this is just a generalization over time, and I cannot speak for specific players.

[Taliss Kazzxs]

I'm sorry but that is complete crap.

The players opposition of the prince was not about opposition of the form of government the prince brought but in fact it was his government he was bringing. Believe it or not, Taliss actually had plans of changing the government, reigning as lizard king and turning the library into his own personal castle (several players verify this). Unfortunately the invasion began before he could make a single change or even gain access to the tax collector.

(notice my avatar is Jim Morrison aka the Lizard King from The Doors.)

It comes across that you are an outsider looking in on this situation and your jumping to conclusions with stereotypical and offensive comments.

[Fooser]

Maybe people like options when they play an RPG? Or a disproportionate number of the characters who were displaced by this change were english players?

[Dyluck]

The players opposition of the prince was not about opposition of the form of government the prince brought but in fact it was his government he was bringing.

You misunderstand, I wasn't necessarily talking about just specific forms of government either. Like you said yourself, you don't like that "someone else" has taken rule in game all of a sudden without doing any "work", because it is an injustice and a loss of control to you as a player . You expect that rule of the town should be based on the work and effort that you had put into gaining or establishing the government as a normal player, and that you should always have the ability to remove another ruler given enough effort. In your case, I guess it's not the "default scenario" but rather "your scenario" that you want, but that explanation is more about just yourself since you wanted to reign for yourself.

Sure, I am making generalizations, because the original post mentioning "mostly english players" makes it a general question. Of course, specific reasons for specific players will be more accurate.

[Fianna Heneghan]

Dyluck -- if you could limit your comments to yourself and refrain from speaking of the motivation of other players, I think your remarks would be much better received. Also, if you could limit the sweeping generalizations and stick to the topic, that would be fabulous.

As it is, you really only embarass yourself by making yourself look like a hate-mongering bigot.

[Dyluck]

Sure, I'll stop talking about that generalization if people are sensitive about it and want to respond with name calling. Admittedly, I wouldn't even know if my generalization applies to any particular player in this instance, so I have little to no value to add to the specific case being discussed. Sorry for the bother then.

[Fianna Heneghan]

Thank you. Your apology is graciously accepted.

[Joxia Doral]

look at the citizens lists of all the other factions...how many non German characters are listed?

Trolls Bane was also the hub of of the English speaking populace.

If it had been varshikar...or Nordmark that Prince took over then your angry POs would be mostly German speaking POs...

Am I wrong in this thought?

[Juliana D'cheyne]

I actually don't care if someone is mainly english, german, or martian though I see your point Joxia and actually agree if another town was taken over there would be others upset also. The question is why however?

Main objective of this game is cooperative interaction of the players to write the history of the characters.

Doesn't this mean Illarion is/was a player driven game?

http://it-falke.com/software/illarion/u ... iption.php

There will be a social system. Your rank in this system will depend on the amount of luxury goods you spend (expensive cloth and food for instance), so you can reach powerful positions in politics. This enables you to play a feudal lord, that protects his people in court and war, taking money from them instead.

*adds* In every town but Trolls Bane or with permission of the gm.

With gm take-over ig of a major town, it mixes ig and ooc terribly and personally I prefer not to deal with it at all. You have the leader of a town that their every word is law or risk punishment up to banishment from the game. Yes, my chars can still behave as their background permits, yet I don't believe ANYONE who will play ig can/will forget that the "Prince" IS a gm, that what the char says is not only law for the town, but rules for the game. This is not what I consider fun, interesting or creative yet I will still continue to play and simply try to avoid what I consider is an unpleasant situation. Having RP'd with other chars I knew the PO was a gm and enjoyed the RP tremendously btw, I felt always free and uninhibited in my char's RP, creative in their actions following the background and rules of the game. The other POs played their char as simply another char/or quest char i.e. The Highwayman or some random old man . The Prince is not like that, the Prince is a gm char summarily taking over the major town in game and running it as they see fit i.e. trolls bane is no longer player driven but gm driven ( and IMO it doesn't matter which gm plays the char) that the word is "law". They will always have the final say, they will dictate how the town is to be run, what will be allowed and what won't, and even mandate the citizens to give "occupation" and "age" and post on walls with Salk guards to tear down parchments if needed broking no dissention even to the point of posting who are allowed to be guards.

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=32227

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=32215

I believe Nalzaxx and Athian said it very succinctly in their post... basically a situation of forced RP that players had no choice with their chars. Those situations can never been fun for the player in the long run.

[Keikan Hiru]

I know that quoting sources is the way to pwn teh unbelivers, but girl, that text you dug out there is ancient.
Ancient as in written at the beginning of the whole Illarion thing, before the first line of code (or maybe shortly thereafter).
It even mentions Bror and Baldur and how they all are still students.

A project is allowed to change over the course of years, isn't it?

Another thing I am bothered is this whole "a GM taking over a town is mixing OOC and IC"-thing. I simply cannot agree to that one bit.
I can't even follow how you came to that notion at all.
If players have a problem with that, then they are mixing IC and OOC, which is thier very own problem and not one of the GM.

You (plural) are becoming paranoid over nothing.

[Grim_banned]

I am not going to read all of this rants.. too much and I'm into a too good mood to get pissed.

Only thing I have to say is that you guys should stop complaining and start playing the game.. accept that your character is not the center of the game, the world does not evolve arround him. You can control the world as much as you can control thunder and lightning in the real life.. If you dont like it, go play Minesweeper.

I consider the quest to be very good but the reaction of the people was wrong from the start.. helloooo!! you're an island, how can you fight an empire and hope to win?

[Juliana D'cheyne]

I know that quoting sources is the way to pwn teh unbelivers, but girl, that text you dug out there is ancient.
Ancient as in written at the beginning of the whole Illarion thing, before the first line of code (or maybe shortly thereafter).
It even mentions Bror and Baldur and how they all are still students.

A project is allowed to change over the course of years, isn't it?

Another thing I am bothered is this whole "a GM taking over a town is mixing OOC and IC"-thing. I simply cannot agree to that one bit.
I can't even follow how you came to that notion at all.
If players have a problem with that, then they are mixing IC and OOC, which is thier very own problem and not one of the GM.

You (plural) are becoming paranoid over nothing.

If you can't see the difference between a player char ruling a town and a gm char and how that could mix ooc and ig looking at ALL the other threads posted in relation to this quest and situation, I am afraid I don't have a better vocabulary to explain it, sorry. And yes, I can see a project changing over the years.. are you now saying the game will be gm run/generated now as far as RP? As I said.... and I may have all these years been TOTALLY mistaken in the assumption that Illarion is player driven as far as background etc. as long as the rules of the game are met, which is why the quotes....whether old or not, they USED to be relevant to me and were some of the reasons I eventually began playing. Whether scorned/called "paranoid", etc. the question was asked, I can't help if you don't like the answer from at least ONE of the players. *shrug*

[rakust dorenstkzul]

Internet roleplay is serious business.

[Rye]

Has the Prince/Mesha made any explanation of exactly how they intend to rule Bane? Would not some specific declaration of exactly what will happen under GM rule go a long way towards dispelling player fear and the panic that seems to have taken hold? From what I've read it seems that some of the same players in positions of power will again be appointed to the government. I recall the statement the prince made upon his arrival that he would meet with players individually to discuss whatever they had on their minds. Unluckily I was never able to find, let alone meet with him. It seems that the people who enriched themselves as the "Leaders" in the past are now set to resume their roles and entrench themselves even further.
I am assuming he, meaning the Prince/Mesha, will appoint people to positions such as Mayor, Magistrate and perhaps Captain of the guards? If this is incorrect will there be an election of some sort? Only "Citizens" need participate? I admit I am only in the game a few months but government of any form was invisible when I arrived until Taliss came down with the "Build barricade and dig moat fever". Then it seems he was omnipresent. As for the game, or at least the town of Bane actually being run by the players? As a graduate student some years back I had the opportunity to work in many different Mental Health institutions and not one of them I visited was run by the patients! With the actual power in the hands of GM's and a bit of delegated power trickled down to the inmates, excuse me, players, I see much greater potential for Illarion to grow and evolve.

[Beldir]

Sorry, if I haven't read this whole thread..
But here's my opinion: This prince in Bane just makes much more atmosphere than any democratic elected player char could. All this bunch of modern OOC structures in Bane always pissed me of. Salkamaeria is modern enough and part of the setting and therefore completely IC
=> this quest was good, if the prince stays relatively active

[Mr. Cromwell]

There haven't been democrats around for a long time now.

[Damien]

So, let's just make a simple checklist.

1. The staff decided to make TB a gm-steered town ( their reasons are a different theme that doesn't need to be discussed here because the matter has already been decided on ).They decided that and will do it, no matter what. The outcome was fixed.
2. Mesha made a quest from it so we have an actual explanation ingame and can even do some events around it, so instead of GMs just taking over some leading characters, players have chances for interaction, even bargains or fights (because the outcome is fixed, the latter cannot be won by the players in the end) and some political stuff to RP.
3. Some players have disagreed with the staff's decision(1), and a few have, after the "ingame-reason" was RPed out and the GM thought it to be kinda done, busted the frame of the plot by GM-unplanned engine-attacks.

Right ?
So, why all the fuss ? Carrying it out on the back of the GM who made the quest for what was already decided by the staff ?

[The great one]

Reading over the thread, I'm not so sure I want to add anything anymore, as it would take too much energy to layeth the smack down on all those who are clearly wrong. *sigh*

Please do not swear ever again to get a point across in a discussion. - Mesha
@Dyluck - You spoke of the poster resulting to name calling?.. How about not resulting to bigotry and hatred toward people in general? ... What you said is like me saying "because you are a german player, you accept the prince just like you blindly accepted that crazy guy?"... See how bad it sounds? THINK ABOUT IT!

Hugs & kisses xox

[Korwin]

Do you think the fields of sociology and psychology are hateful and practiced by bigots?

[Mesha]

and post on walls with Salk guards to tear down parchments if needed broking no dissention even to the point of posting who are allowed to be guards.

First of all, if you have a thread yourself, a guild thread or otherwise, you can ask GMs to rip off parchments for you. This is the same.

About who is allowed to be guard: Every single citizen can become a guard. However, the Prince would not pick out people with an occupation like smith or agriculturist. He picks out fighters and warriors. Every single person who has registered as a citizen, who was a warrior and is in a guild or some such was in that list. I am not being biased here.

Anyhow, if you feel there is anything still necessary to say, feel free to add me on MSN: Mastedoc@gmail.com.