A question!

Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.

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Keikan Hiru
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Post by Keikan Hiru »

Velisai wrote:I personally don't see what a GM can do that a player can't do
The one thing that instantly jumps into my mind is, that this Prince character can be handled as any other quest character aswell.
Meaning that there is probably some long winded, detailed post about his mind set somewhere, so each GM knows how this character is played if the need arises that the Prince has to be around and the 'usual' GM isn't at hand.

The other thing is, that the Prince can easily become a static NPC, sitting somewhere with a couple of phrases to speak (including one or two quests maybe), for a certain amount of time if there is no current need of him being super-interactive.

Player characters can be neither shared nor turned into static NPCs.
This is a whole new world of game immersion if the actual leader of a town is really present and not only aviable through board rp or at odd hours, at least for me.
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Ssar'ney
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Post by Ssar'ney »

I like the quest and the idea behind it, but the lacking presence of the salkamerians is disturbing.
One day after the battle when (at least rp´d) the town was full of salkamerian soldiers but those who were not at the quest
did not have any clue what is going on, that there were soldiers standing around everywhere, neither that the town was annexed.

I did not see the prince or a single salkamerian representer, be it a herald, inspector, soldier or anyone since the battle was over.
How can one play to live in/visit an occupied settlement if there are no occupiers?
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Pellandria
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Post by Pellandria »

I just might comment on a specific part on meshas posting here, because I allready dumbed enough letters for the other issues
Mesha wrote: Attacking the Prince after he won a duel against Taliss. I do think I made clear in the battle that once you were teleported to the library not to come out again.
I seem to have logged in after that announcement,, after all the prince appeared after another server crash, I was ~not~ gm teleported in the libary anyway, because I saved at a barricaded and immedeatly got attacked by two stray npc's I fleed to the northern gate an portaled into the libary, rushing up to the second story to look for wounded ones, I thought people would still fight, because I heard aggresiv spells.
Mesha wrote: this is because the library is the safe haven of the quest, where characters would not be attacked. I think I made this clear, but if I did not, my apologies. Now, back in time.
When you are all holed up in the library, and outside the Prince would still have many soldiers wandering around (which, even though I'm a GM, had to remove so we could get a nice RP-ending to that day).
Well if you go this way one could argue that there were alot of npc people in bane too, citizens that would stream from the libary or destroyed homes, after all our chars alone aren't all the people of the island, but I digress
Mesha wrote: That RP-ending was the duel between Taliss and the Prince. We duelled over Troll's Bane. After I win a duel against your supposed leader, surrounded by my supposed warriors and knights and officers (who were not there, for they would have killed you all in watching, therefor they were removed), attacking me would only indicate that all the characters there held no honour. What, in your character-concept, Pellandria, would allow you do to that? But I digress.
I will spare you the whole rundown of Pellas story to explain it in detail, so the basics are allready ~given~ in your own answer "We duelled over Troll's Bane.", this is of no interrest to Pella herself, because she never was there to defend Trollsbane alone.
In her opinion Bane is just a swamp and should be burned down, ~but~ Bane is still the strongest city on gobiath and the fact that she thinks that the prince simply wants to take out the strongest opponent and than slowly take the other settlements was mentioned from her several times, she even tried to talk elves into joining the war, as mentioning the ores and the abundance of wood on their island, both would very well help any army and the salkamarians would not step down and rather tear up their island to get it.
It was, the same with killing the commander in the first attack, she basicly thougth that the dropping moral of the army would simply cause them to be confuse and thus having "some" advantage over the troops of the salkamarian, after all we just had a few wounded warriors and nothing else, while killing several waves of salkamarian soldiers, meaning that taking out their whole leadersystem would be an incredible advantage to push back the invasion once again, standing inside a crowd was just another advantage, it would have taken the soldiers longer to locate the attacker.
But you are of course free to ask me for a deeper analyse later :P.
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Salathe
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Post by Salathe »

Dyluck wrote:As Korwin mentioned, Salathe, your "recollection" was grossly misinformed:
That's fine. I'll stand corrected, though I won't bother touching on your points.
Dyluck wrote:Sure, you "can ignorantly point your finger at another culture", if you honestly think you are adequatelly informed about German mass media. However, it's likely that you don't actually disagree with my view of American culture, but rather that you disagree that it influences your character's reactions.
No, I do not honestly think I am adequatelly informed of much german happenings, especially the mass media. I made no comment about German mass media, nor did I make a comment about Germans that I actually stand by. I simply was trying to make a point about a particular ignorant and jackass statement. However, it's likely that you don't actually disagree with the gesture of me saying that you ignorantly pointed your finger at another culture.

@Keikan

I remember it clearly, though i'm not trying to blame or say anything against your name. It was a long time ago in a very different atmosphere. 15 levels could have been re-earned in an hour, and this character was quite new and annoying, I'm sure anyone else would have ghosted him at the time. I remember it was you because I met you a few days earlier and remember your character being very peaceful and insightful, and that this was an unusual event for you. The reason I remember it so clearly is because it was the first time I went to a staff member with a complaint. I remember being angry when I told the staff member, and them saying Darlok didn't do it bla bla bla. Though as I said... 7 years ago Illarion had a very different atmosphere and this sort of thing wasn't actually an uncommon event at all. Whether or not it was a troublemaker and you prevented him from doing more harm, no idea, long time ago and I only remember this single event. And yes, I do remember players being very vigilante back then ;D[/quote]
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Kugar
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Post by Kugar »

Ok, this looks like 'once again', things have gotten way out of hand...

Mesha, firstly, to state that what has evolved from this quest is "sheer hatred", is really taking things way out of context... Don't you think? I mean come on.... Hatred? I know taking flack from players must be stressful, but it wouldn't be wise to continue down the road of what ~may~ look like the portaying of OOC manipulation to influence everyones IC oppinion of the prince and is rule... I don't quite think thats what is needed, we (atleast most of us) are not kindergarden children. Everyone just try to grasp reality for a minute and calm down. The problem here is that everyone is just jumping to half assed conclusions of what will happen next. To that, my advice would be to seperate the IC from the OOC and just keep acting as your character justifiably would IG, staying true to the real concept of Illarion - the very reasons we chose to play in the first place!... If your char bought the dumb propoganda that the prince is evil - keep thinking he is evil, if you are the opposite then flip my first advice over... As to take influence OOC, even from ''this'' thread and taking your problems ig can ruin the atmosphere completely for everyone... Just take it easy, as the players, it is also up to us to provide interesting RP possibilities for everyone, and Mesha is a good sport, just send them!.. And ~if~ all of our worst nightmares come true, i.e. the game changes so vastly that us as the players cannot influence anything anymore, and are merely pawns, then go ahead and bitch all you want, make a justifiable stand instead of such as this... Or simply leave, I guess those are the choices.
There is a reason that players have a choice of creating 5 characters, as not to limit their rp to one character. I for one have a character (if not 2 of them), who would follow the princes rule like a horse to water, one reason because I am interested to see if the gms can pull this off. But to expect Jefferson to lay back and take it up the 'censored', would be poor rp on my part. And if you honestly believe that noone will oppose his rule, as thy hav so many times in the past, like there was some mass educating of 'fools who dont do exactly as i say'. I don't really expect that, nor want that to have to change just because a gm says so - which is exactly the way that people deem this to be. though I know for one that Mesha, you are a good addition to this game, and wouldn't just go and ruin it for everyone for your own fun. I still think that as they say "the show must go on", even if you did have to force your prince in power, atleast it was done in an interesting way. Just don't expect characters who began opposing it to be swayed easily - because that is what angers people. Flexibilty is always the key

I find the quest to be quite interesting tbh, and even in the event that this take over was unstoppable, I atleast appreciate the fact that you gave the former government a good send off with the last battle, and we weren't forcefully stopped from doing so. I can quite honestly say that it doesn't anger me in the ~LEAST~ OOC atm, though if it is your plan to 'rid' Illarion of any and all who oppose the Prince, would be no fun and bad rp.

p.s. - thanks for 'The glade', good contination I think... Kinda like the others from Lost, anyone watch that?... Jefferson is John Locke :P :P Lulz.

I am in a hurry for Uni so this is a very rushed post, I'de like it to be kpt open as I would like to expand on my point later if I may, where I will try to highlight things in a bit more detail that you may find of interest :?:
Fooser
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Post by Fooser »

The initial concept for Lyrenzia is irrelevant, it basically became what Salathe described regardless of the intent of the people who made it. It was composed of GM's and pseudo GM's (not GM's but they could get whatever they wanted due to OOC connections). And there was a considerable amount of abuses, not to mention if they couldn't get rid of their enemies IG, they'd try to get rid of you OOC. At the time no one would admit that but a few years removed I don't know many people who deny such things happened with a straight face.
Keikan Hiru wrote: The one thing that instantly jumps into my mind is, that this Prince character can be handled as any other quest character aswell.
Meaning that there is probably some long winded, detailed post about his mind set somewhere, so each GM knows how this character is played if the need arises that the Prince has to be around and the 'usual' GM isn't at hand.
That's actually a weakness of a quest character -- if it's played by multiple people then you can't really know who the other people talked to or what they did .. unless every action is recorded somewhere and memorized by everyone who plays them.
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Galim
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Post by Galim »

I hope i am allowed to write a few words. I promise I wont flame! ^.^

I know that I am not anymore involved with any ingame happenings since i stopped playing. But in my time when I were still playing I were able to gather a few experiences in player run governments. With Galim I were involved in Silverbrands Government while the king was gone and I took part in Trollsbane's too sometimes. Like under Lyrenzia. With Ghorn I were the king of Silverbrand, and I also took part in the government of Trollsbane with Samantha Meryadeles as the magistrate. And from all those I learned on thing. Running a town as a player is tiresome. In the first 2 Month everything goes fine. You got the energy, the motivation...but I made the experience that soon after the motivation goes back quite alot. Running a town stops being real fun...cause it is alot of work. Alot of time will be used for planning the town, planning laws, planning treatys, planning anything a town needs. And most of it weren't much RP based, cause it were simply paperwork. Running a town means alot of dry and monotone work which has to be done for the towns success. And that is the problem with a player run town. Afterall, a player wants to have fun, and a roleplayer wants to evolve his or her character. But that can be quite hard when you are responsible for a town and the peoples living in it. Especially when hard times start to show up, like when powers from the outside threaten you, or when other problems start to knock at your door. As a leader you can't simply take a break, or step back and try something else...you have responsibility...And if you take a break or step back, it will cause the loss of stability. But a working government ingame needs stability, or it can't be successfull.

That may be the advantage of a GM run town. Someone who becomes a GM isn't just a player alone, but also someone who has the wish to fullfill a duty for the game and the playerbase. Someone like that seems, to me atleast, much more fit for a position like a townleader. And as Keikan mentioned it before, the other advantage is that any other GM can overtake the role of the prince, that means the NPC, and the townleadership when the first GM doesnt find the time, or simply needs a break. That is an important advantage which can't be done well with playerbased governments due the loss of stability. GM's can keep the same character as leader when the player behind it changes. Players can't do that.
Motivation is the most important thing a townleader needs...without it, his duty for the settlement suffers. Nearly all of the player ran governments we had in this game were going under as soon as the motivation of the players were going back aswell. They have shown up less often or they simply started to be less eager when it came to the "paperwork" necessary for a town. Or they have lost the fun after weeks and month of hard times and simply gave up. I know that, since I underwent this cycle myself several times.
Just very few of the government we had were gone through roleplay reasons. In my eyes a GM run town promises an improvement and a chance to overcome this problems.

Well...that are my thoughts. I don't know how it really happened ingame and how much RP were involved or how the whole stuff was presented. But as someone who were involved in quite alot of leaderships I may say...a GM run town sounds pretty good. And atleast the players should give it a try and see how it works before they start judging it ^.^

Wish you all fun,

Bye Myself



p.s. My english sucks since i miss the training through roleplaying with english natives :P
Last edited by Galim on Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mesha
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Post by Mesha »

I can quite honestly say that it doesn't anger me in the ~LEAST~ OOC atm, though if it is your plan to 'rid' Illarion of any and all who oppose the Prince, would be no fun and bad rp.
Not my plan. Especially considering that I was the one who even build the Glade. :wink:

Anyhow, yes, the word hatred does come to mind. I have seen many an emotional outburst about this quest, and it does come across as sheer anger/hatred. But perhaps I am misinterpreting it, that could always be the case.
I like the quest and the idea behind it, but the lacking presence of the salkamerians is disturbing.
One day after the battle when (at least rp´d) the town was full of salkamerian soldiers but those who were not at the quest
did not have any clue what is going on, that there were soldiers standing around everywhere, neither that the town was annexed.

I did not see the prince or a single salkamerian representer, be it a herald, inspector, soldier or anyone since the battle was over.
How can one play to live in/visit an occupied settlement if there are no occupiers?
I cannot spawn the soldiers, as they would attack you. If you want to see friendly Salkamaerian soldiers, I will have to create them somehow first. The problem is that anyone new, or anyone else for that matter, might consider them actual players and start babbling against them. But that is of minor concern I guess.

About the Salkamaerian representer, I have played my scribe last evening for over half an hour, and I even announced him on the quest-report. The Prince will be in town today again, and tomorrow the scribe will come 'round once more to register citizens.
Ranwyln
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mal auf deutsch

Post by Ranwyln »

ich sag das ganze mal nun auf deutsch, da es mir auf englisch zu anstrengend ist...
Also ich persönlich finde das ganze quest um bane herum momentan nicht schlecht, aber die androhung ab aufs mainland...oder ähnliches ist in meinen Augen überflüssig.
Ich spiele dies Spiel noch nicht sehr lange, aber habe mich entschlossen die freiheit in Bane..wie ich sie bisher hatte zu verteidigen. Wir hatten leider keine Chance...ich war in der Bücherei (nach dem zweiten Kampf)..aber habe mir auch den Kampf zwischen dem Prinzen und Taliss angeschaut. ( in meinen Augen faire Sache) das danach ein paar probierten den Prinzen zu lynchen... nun gut...(Hätten in meinen Augen maximal die machn dürfen die nicht geghostet waren in den letzten 60 minuten)....Ich bin im wiederstand...und ich werde versuchen auch mit dem Prinzen in der Richtung schönes RP zu machen (mal als einer von der "Deutschsprachigen Seite"). Ich habe es schon in diversen Rp Spielen erlebt das halt es immer schwer fällt Dinge zu unterscheiden...und ja wir hatten keine Chance...aber mit Glück..kann man/frau den Prinzen vergiften...usw...deswegen denke ich eine Untergrundtruppe kann dem RP nur nützen.

P.S. ich verliere auch gerne in RP Dingen solange dies nicht auf den ultimativen Tod hinausläuft.

P.P.S.
Das muss ich nun noch loswerden: Falls der Prinz almächtig beschreib ihn bitte so...
falls nicht, dann gib dir mühe in RP welches auch Fehler zulässt...er hat zwar eventuell unendlich nachschub aber die neuere Geschichte sollte zeigen...das bringt nicht immer was...
P.P.P.S Und ich meine damit nicht das der Prinz sich entführen umbringen oder ähnliches lassen soll...er weiss selber wie gefährdet er momentan ist....aber bitte bitte spiel das dann auch aus...aka illa stasi whatever....(aber ohne gm powers), denn das würde wirklich viel RP eröffnen...er merkt verdammt zig gescheiterte attentate....und wird deswegen charackterlich paranoid oder sonstwas...ich denke du weisst was ich meine...

grüsse der hinter Ranwyln (was ich mit meinem char mache hat keinerlei ooc belange)
Retlak
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Post by Retlak »

You should all leave the game if you do not like the changes.

Feel lucky that the staff did not take over the town imediately with one click, which is what I was hoping for in the first place.

I tend to let changes happen, because I know that a team of staff are more likely to make development-helping choices, than single players such as yourselves. Stop giving a shit about it and think of the future.

-Matt
Ranwyln
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Post by Ranwyln »

changes happening due to rp are fine....but as i see you hoped: This is gm town now..i will have to obey all the way...and whatever they do i support it ?...that isnt rp my friend...but good luck...
Retlak
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Post by Retlak »

I know what Roleplay is and what it isn't.

Instead of dying over your beloved character stories, take a step back and let the game develop, both are different but go hand in hand also. The main difference is that game development is a shit load more important than your character.

-Matt
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Pellandria
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Post by Pellandria »

For knowing so much about rp...I wonder why you won't use your vast knowledge, you can't just sit all the time back and let everyone else make the decissions, if you always just "accept" what comes form above, than you will never change anything and correct mistakes.

Furthermore the problem with illarion is that it gets older, but doesn't mature, just taking everything as given and complettly ignoring any history of illarion makes the game even more childish.
Fooser
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Post by Fooser »

Retlak wrote:You should all leave the game if you do not like the changes.

Feel lucky that the staff did not take over the town imediately with one click, which is what I was hoping for in the first place.

I tend to let changes happen, because I know that a team of staff are more likely to make development-helping choices, than single players such as yourselves. Stop giving a shit about it and think of the future.

-Matt
And here I thought we were testing (not just technical aspects but also RP aspects) a game in alpha phase ... weird

As an extension of that, let them try it, if it works then fine, if it doesn't then that should be acknowledged too, there is a tendency to let things linger longer than they should
Retlak
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Post by Retlak »

Ok thank you!

I honestly can't think of anything nice left to say. Have a nice day guys.

-Matt
Ranwyln
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Post by Ranwyln »

for me i am pretty new into the rp in illa..but i already got a background and several other stuff i do with my char....and i wont step back until i got some good rp changing my mind...so for now i am new but i will be in the so called Resistance...(and as i know i didnt do rp like i am the only mighty mage whatever thingy)

i give everyone rping with me a chance whatever it is about...i will never say hey i got your back little prince i stabbed you twice eated your heart you are dead...
my rp is depending on others all the time...but still belonging to "my" rp bane is my home...and suddenly someone else showed up kicking ass of all...still that doesnt mean i will join the winning side...but some rp options should be left unless the ones..i got biggest D*** and biggest weapon...and most of the mages....

for me in my rp for now i will watch the prince closely..check what he do...and so on.....and yes i will keep fighting him...(in every matter...) and i will try to harm him as much as i can...in rping matters...

and for all the ooc...stop it...its still a game...i for myself dont want to win always...but i want to have a chance....if their are several people around (like 20--30 or more) its clear you cant rp...
but that doenst mean that their wouldnt be a chance to have some really nice rp anylonger...like guerillia warfare....whatever....

just my two cents...
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

Mesha wrote: As it stands, I still do have time before college, so onto the next point. Attacking the Prince after he won a duel against Taliss. I do think I made clear in the battle that once you were teleported to the library not to come out again. This is because the library is the safe haven of the quest, where characters would not be attacked. I think I made this clear, but if I did not, my apologies. Now, back in time. When you are all holed up in the library, and outside the Prince would still have many soldiers wandering around (which, even though I'm a GM, had to remove so we could get a nice RP-ending to that day). That RP-ending was the duel between Taliss and the Prince. We duelled over Troll's Bane. After I win a duel against your supposed leader, surrounded by my supposed warriors and knights and officers (who were not there, for they would have killed you all in watching, therefor they were removed), attacking me would only indicate that all the characters there held no honour. What, in your character-concept, Pellandria, would allow you do to that? But I digress.
As too being attacked outside the library, I think i stated plainly enough that it was poor RP. Even a prince with his soldiers milling around outside would never have done what the prince Lonewood did. He would easily recognize that among his enemies someone might shoot him with an arrow or there might be mages that will kill him in an instant. If a man is surrounded by bodyguards does it make him bulletproof? the answer to that is no. You simply had a GM sized case of the illarion "death doesn't matter to me" bug, end of story. More over you state that anyone you teleported to the library was not "allowed" to come back out (lovely bit of forced RP anyway) but that was not the problem. Most of your enemies in the library retreated into it, meaning they were not injured (if they had been clouded then they would have been literally too weak to hurt you ala the death 'system') and would probably still attack you. The attack itself was not inside your library 'safezone', rather outside of it.

what the hell does honor have to do with you getting killed? that is thee physically stupidest excuse i've ever heard for an auto-res. "killing me has no honor thus i shall not die" please please please don't utter anything so redculious again, especially in the context that there is honor in a war :roll: ... Next time i am player killed i hope you will auto-res me as well because i don't feel like death should matter unless it's honorable.

To state the problems that you might fix if you ever decide to do a larger quest again (a.k.a my mean spirited opinions):

1. In a quest you already know the players have no chance of winning you might want to give thought to just exactly "what" you need to make the quest suitable for all players and rewarding even if those players can't win. What you provided was two actual battles and some minor 'meetings' which really did nothing but reaffirm the fact that players could not win.

2. I understand you had some computer issues at some points during this quest. I don't really consider that sound reasoning for the sheer lack of content you provided. I believe you also had help from Alsaya at some point but it seems to me as if you finished this quest on your own (though i may be wrong). Yes the GM's are human and they have things to do themselves but between the two of you, you could not find 30 minutes within the three week gap (2 month in illa time!!) between these battles to do anything other then run around on your Prince NPC without guard or escort (another suicidal action no prince would have been allowed to take, again no fear of death because you are in effect a GM) and attend meetings in potentially hostile environments.

3. Aside from this Prince who behaves nothing like a Prince what-so-ever. The entire Salk army was over-excess. You already had the ability to spawn near infinite NPC's. There was no need to make them so powerful that semi-casual players could not go unclouded. I'm sure everyone involved in the making and use thought they were 'cool' and used every various background excuse so they could justify it. That's not the point at all however, the point is that these NPC's were obviously designed for the enjoyment of pwning players rather then player enjoyment. You couldn't even place a minor drop on the NPC's to at least give a bit of reward to the common soldier for fighting in your war. Which i should remind you, they had no chance of winning.

Everything about this quest was unrewarding for the people involved in it, RP wise and engine wise. 90% of fun that was made, was made by the player to player interactions and had very little to do with the GM or the "Quest". Rather players did admirably to play in the scenario's set by the quests unyielding and often completely outlandish 'events'. The Quest GM's involved tried but i think overall such a large quest turned out rather tacky and might be avoided unless you truly have time and motivation to make it interesting. So good work to the players for making this interesting...Not so much for the GM's this time, but i'm sure the next attempt will be better.

That's it for me and my nastiness ^^
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Korwin
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Post by Korwin »

I think that after the initial anger and resentment as having been made to 'lose', the vast majority of players will find this a positive thing, with the exclusion of those who are angry about almost every change that's made. It sounds like player involvement will still be encouraged (nobles staying, and hopefully more characters being recruited), and I think players considered about being banned for IC happenings are being a bit alarmist. I have enough faith in Mesha and this GM team that they won't make the law omnipotent, and it seems apparent that there's enough room for bandits and renegades to exist (cleverly) without the assurance of being arrested.

One sore point that I see as fairly legitimate, is the view that the GM team willing took away something a player (Taliss) had (Archduke title) without him really having much of a say in it. In my eyes, and maybe others, it's the same as a GMs taking items away that players gained legitimately (not GM gifts), if the action is going to improve the game is subject for debate, but it's always going to be 'unfair'. That being said, people being angry about it is simply something you'll have to come to accept.

Off on a tangent, I think some players have been spoiled, and led to think that every quest is 'winnable'. When it's a quest that results in the game becoming effectively unplayable (demons destroy or conquer the island, or dragons ravaging town constantly) it becomes a necessity that it's eventually 'won'. A quest like this sort of invasion is an entirely different matter. Win or lose, it's really not a game-changing resolution, and it wasn't a 'single outcome' quest. There was huge freedom to determine what happened, with the sole constraint that the Prince would be in the leadership position at the end. No one was forced to die, all the town officials could have retained their positions, and Taliss would only have to deal with being demoted from Archduke to Duke. Furthermore, the battle was reasonable. There's no reason why a handful of characters (the defense was not unified at all) should be able to defeat an army from one of the major nations.

Some of you (Pellandria) may claim that because of your character concept, your hand was forced, and you had only one course of action, and therefore only one result, available to you. First, I know no one has a character that is so intensely developed that their reactions are solely a product of the ingame situation, and the concept. Second, if you've made your character so rigidly defined, I don't see why you'd be upset with the outcome. If you're upset, you have only yourself to blame. You were the one who decided the course of action your character was going to take, not the GMS.

P.S: I am not, and never have been, a Pseudo-GM
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Siltaris
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Post by Siltaris »

I think Galim mentioned quite important issues. GMs should read carefully over it, rethink and... continue the way they've planned :wink:
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Pellandria
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Post by Pellandria »

Wait a moment, I never "complained" I jsut pointed a few things out that, in my opinion, didn't went that well, hell I talked with Mesha about the quest several times and we did some "off view secret" stuff against the prince, not enough as I would like, becuase I would have loved to see a real guirella warfare breaking out with chars invading camps,slaugthering commanders, destroying ships and such, but yeah I never said that it complettly sucked, it has its mistakes..well several of them, sure time was a question aswell, but the quest itself is simply not over for some chars and aslong as we can still change what is going on I won't say that it was "all" bad..maybe not all played out that well and with logical msitakes...but we all learn.
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

Siltaris wrote:I think Galim mentioned quite important issues. GMs should read carefully over it, rethink and... continue the way they've planned :wink:
I disagree for some minor reasons.

If what we consider government is the right to build/change/alter the map(i.e. towns) then the GM's ALREADY rule the entire island because we cannot do anything of that manner ourselves or without there permissions.

If we consider the governments player interactions between different factions, then there is no need for a GM to be involved in any role over then that of a player character and a referee to keep play fair. If a GM wants to be involved in such affairs then they are perfectly able to do so
on a regular player character like anyone else. Whats the purpose of a GM crossing this line?

Things like approval of citizenship, licenses to mine and other such things are all RP based. They do not physically stop any character from using a mine or using a towns NPC's as such. So all this 'paperwork' that Galim mentions isn't isn't really all that important to begin with. The towns technically can exist without any form of government what so ever, thus the importance of governments is what the PLAYERS make it. To take it out of the hands of the players really doesn't change anything, for good or for bad. in fact up until a few months ago the only real valid governing offical would have been Lennier being that he was the all powerful 'builder' ^^
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Post by Christopher..Rigden »

I just hope the GMs are'nt suprised when Rigden starts throwing things and burning stuff... like usual.
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Post by CJK »

I don't think that will surprise anybody :wink:


And just as an FYI... they did at least try to do stuff... but the players (Like a certain Captain :oops: ) were unable to schedule any time to do it because of six hour time gap between them...
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Post by Damien »

Mesha played the prince very right, and there were no logic flaws that could be used as an argument against what happened :
If you want to read the stuff we have in the wiki about salkamaerian towns and their nobles, you will find that they're defined as hero figures driven by honor, wisdom and the wish to serve the people. Calling out a duel and risking their own life to spare the lifes of own people as well as enemies is just their thing to do. Those are the "good guys" and they even strive to be heroes, so the role of the prince, even the forgiveness-part, was played out very correctly. So he didn't deserve a scolding for that, but a big cookie instead !

Concerning the "it's dangerous and there could be treachery"-argument : even if someone attacks a fully armoured knight (something a salkamaerian noble or prince in the middle of a battlefield definitely is), there's still plenty of ( partially imaginary ) soldiers around who will not stand around doing nothing. So nothing from the RP part was wrong with the prince, but attacking him like that in fact kinda has a taste of suicide. Especially since such an attack in that situation could be a question of honour that leads to consequences for the character who did it later, well, at least, no char ingame will think of that char as honorable anymore for quite a while.
But even if you participated in a quest that had some mentally screwed up main NPC, one had to go along with it anyway cause it's the quester's part to create the outlines of the mindsets for played NPCs ;)
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Post by Drathe »

Would this not be the right place to say I rather like the idea of the whole linear quest, the town run by a rich prince, all his entourage and the possibilities it brings. I liked the siege and nor do I have a problem with the main town having the stability and benefit of being GM run. As long as the town is run with character (as is the prince) it opens a lot of doors. There are still all the townships on the outskirts player run still (from what I dare assume from whats written here) the other player towns and areas. What’s the big freedom that seems to be lost? A single players player running bane?

So there are a few ruffled feathers over some poor RP moments and queer story lines but shit, people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. I’m sure its damn hard conducting the music that is Illarion to everyone taste and shiny high standard. And at the end of the day why not let it be and see how it goes. If the GM/s who run Trollsbane really do make it that much of a flop shouldn’t we give them the credit of being mature and respectful enough to make right the wrong or heed our opinions to relinquish their hold on said town?
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Post by Damien »

Well put, Drathe. If you weren't male, i could kiss you for that comment. :lol:
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Post by Tanistian_Kanea »

Pellandria wrote:.I for once think that ~anyone~ who did not in any way shape or form take place in the war itself, no matter if you wanted to side with the prince or Bane, simply did bad rp, there is no way your regular char, except he is a hermit of some sorts or is incredibly stupid, would just go ahead and allow an forreigning force to ~attack~ one of the best defended town of the island..


or in my case, as a typical fairy, does not believe land can be owned, and that is what the fight was over. Secondly no one but a couple should lead, since neither where leading as a couple (because i think taliss was married) both should not have the right to lead bane.

So from my point view we had two people, equally unqualified for the task of leading, fighting over land which can't be owned in the first place. i hope you see my point why I had no IC problems. I don't think i need to explain my OOC reasons as well.
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Post by Athian »

Damien wrote:Mesha played the prince very right, and there were no logic flaws that could be used as an argument against what happened :
If you want to read the stuff we have in the wiki about salkamaerian towns and their nobles, you will find that they're defined as hero figures driven by honor, wisdom and the wish to serve the people. Calling out a duel and risking their own life to spare the lifes of own people as well as enemies is just their thing to do. Those are the "good guys" and they even strive to be heroes, so the role of the prince, even the forgiveness-part, was played out very correctly. So he didn't deserve a scolding for that, but a big cookie instead !

Concerning the "it's dangerous and there could be treachery"-argument : even if someone attacks a fully armoured knight (something a salkamaerian noble or prince in the middle of a battlefield definitely is), there's still plenty of ( partially imaginary ) soldiers around who will not stand around doing nothing. So nothing from the RP part was wrong with the prince, but attacking him like that in fact kinda has a taste of suicide. Especially since such an attack in that situation could be a question of honour that leads to consequences for the character who did it later, well, at least, no char ingame will think of that char as honorable anymore for quite a while.
But even if you participated in a quest that had some mentally screwed up main NPC, one had to go along with it anyway cause it's the quester's part to create the outlines of the mindsets for played NPCs ;)
Invalid. even if they weren't standing around doing nothing, If you die you die, the end. Perhaps the attacker would face repercussions for there actions, but the fact was in the attack the prince was in fact killed. The problem was he chose to ignore the death for stupid reasons like you give here. The only reason i disagree with punishments to players who attacked him in such a scenario is because the prince himself negated the ultimate fact of his own death. It only take an instant to die sadly, even if you wear armor or whatever, all it takes is someone with enough dedication.

As too the back story

I consider the back story of Illarion as nothing but a vague guideline. Its very one demensional and in many ways poorly constructed. The Prince acted like a proper Salkamarian, which means the proper Salkamarians are idiots with little battle sense. Its reminiscent of one of the contributing factors to the American revolution (and plenty of other times when a small force was forced to deal with a more powerful enemy Vietnam is another good example), where Guerrilla strategies of the colonists proved quite effective against the English line march form of warfare.

I don't believe that just because the Salkamarians fight with honor that they have become a culture so ignorant that they would believe that honor is the standard in warfare. If that were the case it would have been impossible for them as a culture become such a powerful nation.

and stop telling people how they should think or not think IG Damien.
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Post by Damien »

I don't tell people "how to think", Athian, i argued. In fact, that's also kinda what you are doing there. To be specifically, i gave reasons on why the prince's RP did fit into the game world. Plus, Illarion is a completely different world than ours ! Our world's wars and their tactics and experiences from those have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with and should not be compared with Illarion. Ever.

You are right with that of course, the background is just a guideline. It's thought as that. And yes, it has stereotypes as well as it has greyzones, it's thought to have these, and it includes figures that value honor more than their life, but come on, that's fantasy. And if you don't like it, just write some new background by yourself, and do better with it.


'Course, if the prince was ghosted with magic, it's just a matter of having given the char too few essence because of thinking of characters as fair acting people. In that case it's a lack of plot flexibility or a matter of having overseen the possibility, as well as the buggy magic resistance - i heard he was attacked and wounded, not killed, but many define ghosted as wounded.
And of course death in illarion is just exactly NOT "if you die, you die". If that was not the fact, there would be no crosses.

But i see that from that view, of course it is a bad thing if a GM is not prepared for the "worst case scenario" that would crack the whole planned plot. The same often happens to LARP gamemasters, and to good ones. But if you prepare a big quest and go through it, you have all hands full of work and player communications at the same time, over the Tool as well as over MSN, and that's very tough to do even if you had two or three computers to sit at, so if you relied on the GM tool to monitor and tweak the hitpoints of your quest character instead of giving it mega-boosted attributes and got distracted by some !gm calls popping up, it's easy for an NPC to get ghosted. And of course it is very possible to oversee the fact that a player will see things just how he likes, not how you put or planned them.

Sometimes, you cannot keep all aspects of murphy's law in your mind, not even as a game master. The whole outcome was a staff decision anyway, so if it was not reached at full ingame RP speed, blame murphy's law and be sure that next time, the game master doing it will have the necessary paranoia to think of all options - that is, if you don't discuss the motivation to plot quests out of him/her beforehand.
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Post by nmaguire »

I only read the first two posts, and to be honest, I'm not bothered about the quest, and don't have anything against Mesha OOC, but I don't like Djironnyma very much :/
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