Rogue buisness!

Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.

Moderator: Gamemasters

User avatar
Avalyon el'Hattarr
Posts: 1492
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:42 pm
Location: Heaven and Hell
Contact:

Rogue buisness!

Post by Avalyon el'Hattarr »

Alright, I know that there are a lot of other more important things to work at, but maybe a dev will find this appealing and do a few scrips in that direction.

As it is now, there is no technical way to play a propper rogue.. you know, the masked villain that enters your home and cuts your head off while you sleep.. That's why, some things kinda popped up into my mind today:

Sneaking!
Sneaking is not becoming invisible to the eyesight, so dont say "use a druid potion" (which dont work btw). How about if you just become invisible from the start to the chars that have their back turned at you? pretty logical, no?


Camoflage

An item that turns you invisible if you stand still. The chance to get detected depends on the quality of the item, your attributes, your rogue skill (..dunno), your distance to the other char and the perception + rogue skill of the opponent.
Should only work if you are near a wall, near static items, or in darkness, not if you are in the open.


Backstab!

I know that now, if you hit someone from the back, you deliver more damage and the opponent has no chance to parry (right?). I dont know how it will be in the new fighting system, but how about making it deliver even more damage for the first attack, at least.


Criticals!

Make it that puncture weapons have a higher chance to crit, depending on rogue skill?


Pickpoket

Approach someone from the back, undetected, attempt to use skill (maybe by using a special item, like .. dunno.. a pair of gloves?). Success depends of your skill, target's skill (if rogue), target's perception, number of items in bag and belt (the more items he has, the easiest would be to steal them).


Throwing stars

With enough distance weap skill, one should be able to easly cripple an enemy, by either making them drop their weapon, or just stop them from running (or walking for that matter).


Spyglass

It has been proposed already, easy to script.. Just use it facing a direction and you will get an info with how many persons are in that direction, even an aproximate distance or their names, with enough perception (for out of screen).


Traker's kit

Didnt put much thought into the RP mechanics of this thing, but all in all, it would be awsome to have an item that allows you to find a specific character or NPC. Need to elaborate on this more, but the raw idea is to type the name/number of the one you search and if he is close enough to you (depending on skill), you'd get directioned there.. something like a treasure map. This would really open the way for bounty hunter play.


Lockpicking!!

Yes, i know it was proposed before and every time ended with the "it would be annoying to have to train this skill by randomly opening doors". Well, my idea is to make this like a game that depends on the player's ability to compleate it, rather than a skill that increases.
Have you ever played Mastermind? It's a codebreaking game, really awsome, not many can do it. The objective is to guess the color code that your opponent does, through a limited number of tries.
Having that in mind, let's put it into lockpicking.. make a code of factors depending on the awsomness of the lock (from 2 to 9 slots, each containing one of the 8 possible factors: "left", "right", "up", "down", "thrust", "pull", "spin left", "spin right" - the movement of the lockpick) that the rogue has to guess through a limited number of tries depending on the awsomness of his lockpick.
After each consecutive try, the rogue will get an info saying how many of the factors he got right and how many are in their right positions. If his tries run out, his lockpick breaks and all the chars close to that door would get an info of suspect noise from that direction, and whatnot.


I have more ideas, but no time to write them down now. Opinions please? :D
User avatar
Llama
Posts: 7685
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 7:02 pm
Location: The VBU is awesome
Contact:

Post by Llama »

Sneaking - I don't really see the point in it, but doesn't appear to be broken. Remember that we have day and night - and you can use night to your advantage?

Camoflage - See Above

Backstab - I agree with this a lot

Criticals - Rogue skill? Making stabbing weapons critical a lot is a bad idea because they're the fastest weapons around - so you'll get a ton of criticals

Pickpocket - No No NO NO NO NO NO NO. I don't see why we should make people lose their hard-earned items just because they don't have eyes at the back of their head. Not even if there's a large '#ME IS STEALING' emote every single time you try - far too broken.

Throwing Stars - Would make ranged weapons too powerful. So not really

Traker's kit - Uh, you might be on to something here - I'd expand that if I were you. Also is it meant to be "Tracker's kit" ?

Lockpicking -See Pickpocket. What will this be used for? Entering places people don't want you to. And you can't steal anything - so basically you'll end up in the orc caves because you picked their lock. Hooray! There's absolutly no use for this. Locks are currently used on purpose so people don't pick them.
---
Also you forgot caltrops ;)
User avatar
Athian
Posts: 2429
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 7:15 pm

Post by Athian »

Hadrian_Abela wrote: Pickpocket - No No NO NO NO NO NO NO. I don't see why we should make people lose their hard-earned items just because they don't have eyes at the back of their head. Not even if there's a large '#ME IS STEALING' emote every single time you try - far too broken.
Also you forgot caltrops ;)
I disgaree here. Illarion seems to have this backwards perception of owning things. We're all for a simulation of real life, but people hate the idea that things can be stolen. People think "I built it/made it. it is mine and no one can take it or damage it without my permission" they want some form of ooc protection for these items and properties, which i find to be abit stupid. Things get stolen, land gets taken over, houses get broken into.

Voiding this concept entirely for absolutely no reason is silly to me. I agree that there should be an extent, such as only the items in your pockets or things you aren't wearing (the bag might be targeted). And there should some warning of course, maybe it can be cancelled in the same manner as the rope, when someone steps away quick (i would say it would need to be immediately) then the attempt fails, any slower and they might lose something in there pockets.

p.s. One day Illarion will stop being run by whiny carebears so afraid to lose anything that they must do everything in the OOC world to keep it from happening IG ^^ some day :wink:
User avatar
Silo
Posts: 256
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:25 am
Location: United States... :/

Post by Silo »

I'm all for theft.
User avatar
Arvemor
Posts: 599
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:36 pm

Post by Arvemor »

I'm all for it too. #me gives his vote.
User avatar
Rhianna Morgan
Posts: 988
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:43 pm
Location: Nordmark

Post by Rhianna Morgan »

I know for some it is hard to lose their *hard earned items* so they don't give thieves anything, or hardly stuff like five coppers, for what they chase them afterwards.
But really, think it through, a thief OF COURSE takes your hard earned items, it is the sense of thievery to do so. Why would someone go through all this danger being caught, and then ask politely if they may take this or that before taking it?

All in all, I am for this proposal. Of course this will be a bit more dangerous for craftsmen-chars, but you can finally overlive with a thief-char, who is at the moment nothing but a pure funchar that actually doesn't even make fun to play most of the time due to the fact that no one operates.

*thumbs up*
Keikan Hiru
Posts: 3482
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 5:46 pm

Post by Keikan Hiru »

This seems to be a simple rehash of all the "thief ideas" that have been floating around since years.
Has there anything of value being added?
Something like an actual way of handling all this stuff by putting it into a coherent system?

As long as this is a simple summary of things that have already been said, there is little chance that anything can be done about this.
Other then people flocking into this topic and saying:
"Oh, cool."
User avatar
Cassandra Fjurin
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 3:25 pm

Post by Cassandra Fjurin »

currently we have many other things to do, which are more important. But a complete roque, thief system is on my TODO list.
User avatar
Olaf Tingvatn
Posts: 935
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:23 am
Location: Norway, Lyngdal, Scandinavia

Post by Olaf Tingvatn »

Any time i am pickpocketed, which doesnt happen very often due to other players superhuman vision, i 'allways' give coins or whatever they want. and yes i would give more then five coppers :)

AND making it easier to land a critical with swords just because they are sharp doesnt sound too good to me..what? maces doesnt land so many criticals because their not sharp? :P

other then that the lockpick and other schtuff have been suggested allready.
User avatar
Mr. Cromwell
Posts: 1876
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:20 pm
Location: All over the place.

Post by Mr. Cromwell »

I oppose any thieving system as long as catching people is as huge pain in the ass as it currently is. Simply because a system where the success of thieving no longer depends from the cooperation of the victims, but where catching the thief depends on his cooperation will suck ass.

You should consider that thieves are on average no better roleplayed than the victims.

Furthermore, such thieving needs to be well thought out and balanced, as I estimate two or three weeks max until we have the first fully skilled, maxed thief chars running around and pickpocketing everyone and their grandmothers.
User avatar
Llama
Posts: 7685
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 7:02 pm
Location: The VBU is awesome
Contact:

Post by Llama »

Here's my problem with pick pocketting.

Imagine I'm smithing around, I have gems in my pocket for the harder-to-make things, and someone nicks one of them.

What am I supposed to do? If I attack him to get them back, he'll have the Jus Bellum (and a roleplay reason) to attack me.

Similarly, if I'm a good fighter, and I catch him nicking my stuff, chances are that he'll run away before I'm able to kill him anyway.

Also, given that chance to spot will probably be based on perception - lots of characters are going to get nicked from without any chance of their interaction.

If on the other hand, pick-pocketting was 'looting' and used when a character is knocked out (instead of having to cloud them) it'll be much fairer, as the person actually had a chance to stop it.
User avatar
Cassandra Fjurin
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 3:25 pm

Post by Cassandra Fjurin »

Mr. Cromwell wrote:I oppose any thieving system as long as catching people is as huge pain in the ass as it currently is. Simply because a system where the success of thieving no longer depends from the cooperation of the victims, but where catching the thief depends on his cooperation will suck ass.
That is a good point. So we should find technical systems to solve this. If somtehing depends only on the RP we won't have something fair because only 10 % of the players can rp well if they have a disadvanage from it.

Some ideas: Knock down the enemy: for the first time the hp gots less than 0, the enemy is knocked down. He gets back 100 HP but is paralized for some seconds. (Maybe 30 secs). In this time you can get his backpack or his weapon, or maybe bond him se he can't move and fight.
User avatar
Thrym
Posts: 355
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:37 am
Location: Hold on! I lost my map...

Post by Thrym »

I am for thieving, as long as the ability to pickpocket/lockpick is given only to people who have already proven themselves competent RPers. If thieving is part of this addition, I suggest it be a requested class, much as special races can be requested.
Keikan Hiru
Posts: 3482
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 5:46 pm

Post by Keikan Hiru »

Utter crap.
I don't want to see a "Thieves Academy" on a secret island somewhere, where only characters with 40 points in Perception, Agility and Dexterity may enter.

Either it works for everyone, or noone at all.
User avatar
Cassandra Fjurin
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 3:25 pm

Post by Cassandra Fjurin »

Keikan Hiru wrote:Utter crap.
I don't want to see a "Thieves Academy" on a secret island somewhere, where only characters with 40 points in Perception, Agility and Dexterity may enter.

Either it works for everyone, or noone at all.
The same should be for all crafting, fighting and mage professions. It don't work if any profession is given to some "elitistic" playergroup. The System itself should balance balance itself.
Ranwyln
Posts: 126
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:03 pm

Post by Ranwyln »

i dont have problems with loosing stuff cause someone robs me...
problem i saw in another game i played was...they were stealing like hell...put the stuff into their depot (or whatever) when they get clouded loose nothing rob again...
so serious response should be able to add than... he robs me (even if i want or not), so if he got catched he will loose a hand (seriously decrease in all skills, even if he wants or not)...
second catch both hands away or head off...
thievery depending on the humanity of the players... will work with some...but their will be always some players using their robbing powers and laughing about the rest...
If thievery will be added i think their should be the possibility to chose once or twice:
Alright i will play with those thieves and if they rob me and i get knowledge of them catch them they will loose their hand or head...(definite..the risk each Thief has to take)
or
i dont want to play with a thievery in skills so complete immunity to it...(and you cant chop of hand or head of those robbers than ofcs...)

same for the thieves ofcs.:
i want to be a thief, if i get catched (clouded/whatever) i will loose first half of skill/agility/whatever...
second catch definitely dead...
or
i want to rp it and hope others will join it....

dont know if this is possible to be done...
but otherwise i really dont want to get thieves with skill around...(where you dont got a chance)

Cheers Ranwyln
User avatar
Mesha
Posts: 1238
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:49 am
Location: Chris Colfer's underpants
Contact:

Post by Mesha »

I think some people, who want this system to be regulated (AKA, applied for), are failing to see the system already in place. You have GMs to watch for any excesses! If a thief does not RP with you, and simply thieves your stuff and runs away without a single #me is as much against the game-rules as attacking another char without RP is. We are a !gm away.

I agree with the fact that the system should be accessible for all.

Mesha
User avatar
Mr. Cromwell
Posts: 1876
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:20 pm
Location: All over the place.

Post by Mr. Cromwell »

Cassandra Fjurin wrote:
Mr. Cromwell wrote:I oppose any thieving system as long as catching people is as huge pain in the ass as it currently is. Simply because a system where the success of thieving no longer depends from the cooperation of the victims, but where catching the thief depends on his cooperation will suck ass.
That is a good point. So we should find technical systems to solve this. If somtehing depends only on the RP we won't have something fair because only 10 % of the players can rp well if they have a disadvanage from it.

Some ideas: Knock down the enemy: for the first time the hp gots less than 0, the enemy is knocked down. He gets back 100 HP but is paralized for some seconds. (Maybe 30 secs). In this time you can get his backpack or his weapon, or maybe bond him se he can't move and fight.
Well, the problem is that knocking someone down who is running away from you is.. improbable at best, impossible at worst, unless there is a huge skill disparity/lag/obstacles on the path involved. Especially if you don't react immediately to fleeing (say, you were writing a #me and the other darts off with a #me runs away).

The thing about thieving is that it sort of violates the "sanctity" of your character and his posessions, and even though I am not entirely opposed of this, I recognize the huge frustration potential to the victims that is involved here. I mean, the ones who will get owned by this system are particularly the non-Athian/Marius players who don't PG or have maxed skills to scare away thieves with, and consequently when Athian or Marius comes with their double-poison dagger wielding/maxed thief chars... well, heh.

Yeah. It's a lose-lose situation for the victim there. It's not just the pickpocketing itself, but rather that combined with kickass fighting capabilities that will allow pickpockets to technically force their way without risking immediate consequences as long as they focus on the right type of victims.

Why this is important or relevant? Because a lot of players 'really' don't like to feel under siege all the time, from other players anyway. While it's easy to dismiss their concerns as "carebear lololol" I actually think that they have just as much 'right' to enjoy the game as those people who insist on messing with their fellow players through the engine constantly, without paying any attention to the desires or wishes of the player on the other side.

So, what I am saying here is that this is not a simple "yes", here. Unless things can be implemented in a way that minimizes the involved frustration and is fun for other people -too- than just the maxed out thieves, then it's better not to implement anything at all, and instead use that time on developing something better and more reasonable.

Just my take on things.
User avatar
Rincewind
Posts: 1960
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:40 am
Location: schroedingersbox.org
Contact:

Post by Rincewind »

I like to add my mind.

1. If there is a pickpocket-system available for everyone I get the vision of a nweebe and my orc. "Hey cool! I'm able to rob stuff! Try it out man!" says the N. But the N. had no Skill, so my Orc truns arround and smashes him down. The N. get pissed, and I get pissed becouse the GM's ask me why I clouded a N.
But I agree, the systam should be available for everyone.
-> Solution: Show your chance to rob the char succesfuul. ('You are able to rob him/her about 20%') Or in a similar kind, more Illastyle without numbers. ('You are loony? Robbing this guy is a bad Idea.' 'This stupid guy even don't recognize if a deamon appears next to him, rob him man, this should be simple!')

2. There should be really heavy consequence if you miss! Otherwise ther would be chars how just run arround an try, try, try, try to steal stuff. This would go on everyones nervs. So make a high chance to get a freezetime, and maybee make a increased skill-loose if you get clouded during this freezetime. So that every rouge think about the risk to rob someone. (The speedtime should be based on the Speed-attribute of the Char and a little bit random)

3. I don't know how difficult this is, but make a classification for each Item. (I'm sure the community helps out) This classificationdata includes the "how easy to get stolen"-data. So you will hafe a big Number for heavy and big stuff like armors. And low numbers for little stuff. The number should increase if the stuff is in your hands or weared on your body(nearly impossible). And maybe, let the data increase a little bit if the item is magical.

In addition let the rouge choose, wich kind of item he want try to steal. Big item, normal or small ones. (+ see the chance of access)

3. The rouge skill:
-should increase very slow. (like the poisoness-skill)
-increases if you try to pickpocket
-increases if someone steals from you.

If you steal it depends on your dexterity.
If you detect someone it depends on your perception.
The possible freezetime if you miss depends on your speed.

If you have a high skill, it's difficulter for others to rob you. (crafters: be free to train against get robbed)

4. If a helmet is weared you have lowwer chance to use your rouge abilitys. Becouse you arn't able to see and hear well.
If a heavy armor is wared you have also low chance to detect someone who is grabbing your stuff. becouse you can't feel his/her hand on your body.

5. Instead of this special-attacks for rouges:
Make the chance for critical hits greater, when attacked from behind. All weapons. Do not forgett the distance weapons.

+ Realise the former proposed poisoned weapons (with different effects) Which attack your attributes or give you a freezetime.

6. If the rouge was succesfull, there should be a "shadow-item" placed insted of the robbed item. if you use or watch the next time on the item you get a massage. "Holy gods! Your 'Itemname' is gone! you have lost it, or someone robbed you?". So the thief have a chance to get far away before the thiefing is detected.

7. Make it able to place stuff into someone's pocket. (nice to have)

8. Avalions proposals are well! Except the Lockpicking, throwingstars, criticals. The Lama-man told why.
User avatar
Grim_banned
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:07 pm

Post by Grim_banned »

Sneaking - I don't really see the point in it, but doesn't appear to be broken. Remember that we have day and night - and you can use night to your advantage?

Camoflage - See Above
- Last time I checked, the potions of invisibility didnt work.
- I know that we have day and night now, but we dont have eyes to the back of our head, do we? :) So, the proposal is to be in sight only if the char has his face turned to you.
- The camo is for when someone is looking directly at you, to decrese the chance of getting seen. Maybe have different color camo, depending on situations.. like white to be used outside when it`s snow, green and brozn for forests, black for dark places.

Elaboration for `tracking kit`: Whisper name of char (or number), use item, if char close by (distance depending on skill), you get directions to his location.
User avatar
Llama
Posts: 7685
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 7:02 pm
Location: The VBU is awesome
Contact:

Post by Llama »

Grim wrote:- Last time I checked, the potions of invisibility didnt work.
They worked too well - they used to crash the client of all those who look at you :P
User avatar
Tanistian_Kanea
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:22 am

Post by Tanistian_Kanea »

Hadrian_Abela wrote:
Grim wrote:- Last time I checked, the potions of invisibility didnt work.
They worked too well - they used to crash the client of all those who look at you :P
lmao, well that's a bug
User avatar
AlexRose
Posts: 4790
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:18 pm
Location: Megajiggawhat?

Post by AlexRose »

Nice deduction, Sherlock :P
Rye
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:33 pm
Location: Great Smoky Mountains

Post by Rye »

Is there not a way to steal already ingame? I was attacked and knocked out by another player. While my char was out he was robbed of two new swords and bound by a rope. When he regained consciousness he was being dragged toward the north gate. Other players intervened and the robber ran off. Less than subtle but it seemed to work for the robber. I was unaware this could happen. I am still unclear on how he stole the swords as they were in my hands at the time. My first instinct was rage but it just took a short while for me to incorporate the event into my RP.
User avatar
Llama
Posts: 7685
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 7:02 pm
Location: The VBU is awesome
Contact:

Post by Llama »

Ah, I see you met our rope tying system.

You can tie a player up (but if he moves it ruins) - and that drops whatever he has in his hands (so he can't attack or anything).

You can try to break free by moving away, it works sometimes.

Its not really stealing, all that'll drop is anything you have in your hands.
User avatar
pharse
Posts: 1787
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:33 pm

Post by pharse »

User avatar
Cassandra Fjurin
Posts: 2248
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 3:25 pm

Post by Cassandra Fjurin »

The discussion about this topic is to detailed. Currently is noone working on such a rogue system. Its planned and maybe it will come in the next 6-12 months. If someone really implements it, he can start a new topic about the details.
User avatar
Juliana D'cheyne
Posts: 1643
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:14 am
Contact:

Post by Juliana D'cheyne »

Hadrian_Abela wrote:
.....all that'll drop is anything you have in your hands.
Not only a town rule but advantageous also not to carry weapons in town. :wink:
David Turner
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:32 am

Post by David Turner »

I would like to add some points to this discussion that haven't been really addressed. This post will be concerning thieves. While it would add an element of realism, the consequences would be much higher than most people anticipate and it can NEVER be truly realistic.

First, it could never match reality. Most people in real life don't become thieves (pickpockets especially) because it takes so long to learn and because the consequences are so high if you are caught. While you can make it difficult to learn it is impossible to enforce the same sort of consequences. In real life being caught can mean either permanent injury or actively sitting around in a jail. We have no system for permanent injury (such as cutting off a person's hands or killing them permanently if they steal from the wrong person) and most people don't want it anyways because of how it would restrict the "adventuring spirit" of their characters (if my first character had been permanently deleted when I ran across a scorpion that killed me unexpectedly, I would have stopped playing permanently as would many others. Same goes if I accidentally pissed off the wrong person in game who decided to cloud rather than just knock down.). Jail time, which can be a big deterrent in real life because you have to sit there bored for so long and risk the dangers that come with the other convicts, means little in a game where you can log out and go on with your life or create a new character (especially if they are a new character). And don't even get me started on the difficulty to chase down and cloud a character who has done you wrong.

That said, that is an insignificant reason compared to the next. Implimenting a pickpocket skill would drastically change how characters interact for the worse. Can you imagine walking up to a depot and, instead of saying hello to the other characters and possibly starting some good role play, you have to stay at least one square away from everyone lest you get pick-pocketed? That type of paranoia might be realistic, but it doesn't make for a good game that people want to play or the friendly role-play that makes people stay for the long term. Sitting around a fire and trying to strike up a conversation with the other characters would become a dangerous thing that most people would be much less likely to engage in. The people who would suffer the most are the new players, since they would be the ones suspect as being a "throw away thief" and they are the ones who would then be most likely to be ostracized by many of the players. Once you loose the new players the game eventually dies, everyone knows this. And before you say "it is bad role-playing to ostracize a person that you don't know just because they 'might be' a thief", It is a perfectly legitimate form of paranoia in a world with thieves and the type of consequences that I mentioned before.

So again, I ask: What is the point of adding in a pickpocketing skill, again?
User avatar
Drathe
Official Illarion Banner Contest Winner
Posts: 714
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2001 9:46 pm
Location: Climbing from a window

Post by Drathe »

I love the idea of rouge skills I play a loveable character who is very much that. But as much as I love the idea of pickpocket and lock picking I agree that it needs to be of a level in context to the game, much of a lot of what has been said. So... How about make it an applied for skill/role as is for special races? Or more to my liking; as is per the magic system, you need to find a teacher in game. This would truly add an underground element with numbers of thieves having a control and a focus rather than all just single elements running around and proving the above post true. I'm thinking something along the lines of what the Highwayman was trying to set up in his brief career. Just a thought for the thread.
Post Reply