I like the idea of making changes that would keep players in game. Right now it is possible to see players staying in game only to ride down the skill cap and investing minimal effort into the RP - which obviously does nothing to promote a fun atmosphere. With a drastic change in the skill system, I'm wondering if we'll just see more players in game skilling their characters and still investing minimal effort into the RP? I don't think that would be an improvement really.
For the record I do all three of the choices in the poll depending on circumstances and mood, so I didn't cast a vote.
Skillcap
Moderator: Gamemasters
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Juliana D'cheyne
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It is possible, but ALSO possible those same chars will stay in game doing more and more RP, at least there would be more chars "doing minimal" . As it is now, some log which is no answer. It is hard to skill on Illarion compared to other games, yet the RP brings an element not found anywhere else and can keep someone ig where skilling wouldn't. This element of RP is IMO what can keep new players staying as long as they can find it before getting frustrated with the skilling. A new player that gets ig to skill catching a smattering of RP here and there then logging when capped, is less likely to find meaningful RP then one staying ig longer if the cap were adjusted.I'm wondering if we'll just see more players in game skilling their characters and still investing minimal effort into the RP?
Hello everyone,
-----Just a comment on how this could affect all the characters other than roleplay-----
I personally think the skill-cap being reduced and/or boosted learning would create a balance between the current extreme variation of characters IG.
In other words, currently we have the powergamers who own all the 95% - 100% chars, there's about 10 of them active. The remaining population is usually low-end skill chars who can't do too much with their skills. The skill cap as it is currently will not affect the powergamers because they will train / know how to train best anyway, but the average players are limited to time and patience (thus low skill chars).
With a different skill-cap, the lesser skilled chars will be able to catch up (faster learning and more time to do it when they want to) while the powergamers are not affected due to them going to max out whether the system / staff likes it or not. This all means low end chars played by the roleplayers will get a chance to be better and catch up to the bad guys.
-----As for the Roleplay-----
I guess more players will be happy with what their char can do technically, that influences roleplay a lot.
I suppose people will begin to not change their roleplay to match their skill-cap. (Players missing out a training day with all the other players just because they cannot learn)
And of course everyone can train together as one big happy family.
-Matt
-----Just a comment on how this could affect all the characters other than roleplay-----
I personally think the skill-cap being reduced and/or boosted learning would create a balance between the current extreme variation of characters IG.
In other words, currently we have the powergamers who own all the 95% - 100% chars, there's about 10 of them active. The remaining population is usually low-end skill chars who can't do too much with their skills. The skill cap as it is currently will not affect the powergamers because they will train / know how to train best anyway, but the average players are limited to time and patience (thus low skill chars).
With a different skill-cap, the lesser skilled chars will be able to catch up (faster learning and more time to do it when they want to) while the powergamers are not affected due to them going to max out whether the system / staff likes it or not. This all means low end chars played by the roleplayers will get a chance to be better and catch up to the bad guys.
-----As for the Roleplay-----
I guess more players will be happy with what their char can do technically, that influences roleplay a lot.
I suppose people will begin to not change their roleplay to match their skill-cap. (Players missing out a training day with all the other players just because they cannot learn)
And of course everyone can train together as one big happy family.
-Matt
I agree for the most part a cap boost would be nice. Though i feel anyone who really wanted to put int he effort to make a powerful character always could have. There was no technical inability as too why they could not. I would like to see skilling become easier but at the same time I don't want to see it become so easy that it's effortless...Retlak wrote:Hello everyone,
-----Just a comment on how this could affect all the characters other than roleplay-----
I personally think the skill-cap being reduced and/or boosted learning would create a balance between the current extreme variation of characters IG.
In other words, currently we have the powergamers who own all the 95% - 100% chars, there's about 10 of them active. The remaining population is usually low-end skill chars who can't do too much with their skills. The skill cap as it is currently will not affect the powergamers because they will train / know how to train best anyway, but the average players are limited to time and patience (thus low skill chars).
With a different skill-cap, the lesser skilled chars will be able to catch up (faster learning and more time to do it when they want to) while the powergamers are not affected due to them going to max out whether the system / staff likes it or not. This all means low end chars played by the roleplayers will get a chance to be better and catch up to the bad guys.
-----As for the Roleplay-----
I guess more players will be happy with what their char can do technically, that influences roleplay a lot.
I suppose people will begin to not change their roleplay to match their skill-cap. (Players missing out a training day with all the other players just because they cannot learn)
And of course everyone can train together as one big happy family.
-Matt
Anyway, i'm more curious as to which method is actually preferred, maybe we could poll that and see which comes up on top.
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Tanistian_Kanea
- Posts: 646
- Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:22 am
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Tanistian_Kanea
- Posts: 646
- Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:22 am
What does the skillcap achieve?
A: You maximize your gain if you do tasks that make you learn immidiately after you've logged in to the game.
After a while you get the skillcap message and won't learn anymore, if you spend more time in-game afterwards the skillcap replenishes and if you do tasks after it has replenished you learn again.
B: On the other hand, if you log in to the game and get drawn into a roleplay immidiately which leaves no room to do a skill learning task, then go to skill afterwards you'll effectively learn less than someone who spent his first ~30 minutes logged in on skilling because you "wasted" your time with this immidiate RP after logging in (wasted in terms of skillgain / cooldown period of your skillcap).
If you play the game for let's say 3 hours and compare approach A to B then you'll see that the person with playing style A will end up with more skill after 3 hours have passed.
So the current system tells me something like this:
If you skill immidiately after logging-in then Rp and Rest, then afterwards skill again you'll get the most out of your in-game time in terms of skillgain.
If you choose not to skill immidiately after logging in, you're free to do so, but you will suffer drawbacks in comparison to those that skill right after logging in.
I'm not saying this was intended, it's just what the current system implies and tries to nudge you to do (because that's how you're learning sucessfully then).
I don't know why the fact when in those 3 hours I play Illarion I decide to train some skills is relevant to how much skill in total I will achieve in my 3 hours of playing.
If I fight for 1/2 hour - Rp 2 hours then fight 1/2 hour again (asuming I cap after the first half hour and it takes 2 hours to replenish the skillcap back to "empty"), I receive more skill due to the replenished skillcap inbetween than if I choose to Rp for 2 hours then fight for 1 hour / Rp for 1 hour then fight for 1 hour then Rp for 1 hour again or any other combination that's if the skillcap is considered would be sub-par to the first mentioned way to split my 3 hours IG.
A: You maximize your gain if you do tasks that make you learn immidiately after you've logged in to the game.
After a while you get the skillcap message and won't learn anymore, if you spend more time in-game afterwards the skillcap replenishes and if you do tasks after it has replenished you learn again.
B: On the other hand, if you log in to the game and get drawn into a roleplay immidiately which leaves no room to do a skill learning task, then go to skill afterwards you'll effectively learn less than someone who spent his first ~30 minutes logged in on skilling because you "wasted" your time with this immidiate RP after logging in (wasted in terms of skillgain / cooldown period of your skillcap).
If you play the game for let's say 3 hours and compare approach A to B then you'll see that the person with playing style A will end up with more skill after 3 hours have passed.
So the current system tells me something like this:
If you skill immidiately after logging-in then Rp and Rest, then afterwards skill again you'll get the most out of your in-game time in terms of skillgain.
If you choose not to skill immidiately after logging in, you're free to do so, but you will suffer drawbacks in comparison to those that skill right after logging in.
I'm not saying this was intended, it's just what the current system implies and tries to nudge you to do (because that's how you're learning sucessfully then).
I don't know why the fact when in those 3 hours I play Illarion I decide to train some skills is relevant to how much skill in total I will achieve in my 3 hours of playing.
If I fight for 1/2 hour - Rp 2 hours then fight 1/2 hour again (asuming I cap after the first half hour and it takes 2 hours to replenish the skillcap back to "empty"), I receive more skill due to the replenished skillcap inbetween than if I choose to Rp for 2 hours then fight for 1 hour / Rp for 1 hour then fight for 1 hour then Rp for 1 hour again or any other combination that's if the skillcap is considered would be sub-par to the first mentioned way to split my 3 hours IG.
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Felicia Saral
- Posts: 128
- Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:27 pm
Though not participating, i`m going to answer.
((All three answers a YES, from my part most truthfull.))
A-When low-levelled-NSC-farming, in case i play for simply slaying, because of relaxing or frustration((or FOR?:twisted:));
B-In gerneral. ((btw In general its hard to reach cap when playing irregularly with an established char));
C-For orders, only when farming. ((As for beeing a irregular player, i prefer not to take on orders any more, and there are also maaany
IG-reasons));
((C))
((All three answers a YES, from my part most truthfull.))
A-When low-levelled-NSC-farming, in case i play for simply slaying, because of relaxing or frustration((or FOR?:twisted:));
B-In gerneral. ((btw In general its hard to reach cap when playing irregularly with an established char));
C-For orders, only when farming. ((As for beeing a irregular player, i prefer not to take on orders any more, and there are also maaany
IG-reasons));
((C))
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Estralis Seborian
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Drathe
- Official Illarion Banner Contest Winner
- Posts: 714
- Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2001 9:46 pm
- Location: Climbing from a window
I’ve been playing the game a long time now and one thing that has always seemed an issue is, what is the game? Is it an engine based skilling game with tolerance for a little character story or a haven for textual RP with some nice graphics to look at as you type. Depending on your style of play whether consistently or when the mood takes it could be either.
The trouble with the game not being one or the other is; you make a character and RP them as a carpenter, after all this is an RP game all about the RP? But oh wait... you have no skill for it. So you spend your time learning how to RP but never making much money because limited time is used on your skill development. Your characters reputation as a carpenter is nothing as he can’t actually make anything worthy. But ay! Your RP is good only you just missed out on half of the games design, engine and fun in learning the system. I dare say even your RP suffers as well... you’re not actually a carpenter are you, so who’s going to trade with you.
So this time you make a new character and (for want of a better word) power game... But oh no, you run out of skill points mm... I’ll wait around AFK that’s ok to do in all other ‘RPG’s’ Besides I can’t RP a character that has no skill to BE that character. No you can’t, this is a true RPG get back in game and RP the same, ‘oh I forgot everything when I bashed my head on the boat here story.’ Until finally they have enough skill to do a little of what they wanted to and RP.
It’s always been this way, people who want to skill gain and enjoy the game engine and know it well have the brand of power gamer and those who RP and do it well get Elitist, everyone else just sits in the middle with half developed characters never quite getting there in either case and feeling a slight pinch of frustration.
Don’t get me wrong here, There are many exceptions to my rather broad examples. Just as I love this game, engine and community. This is not a dig just a regular observations I’ve seen so, so many times here. I don’t think I’ve ever seen the question asked what IS the game? That in my opinion is the key to the foundations of the skilling answer.
Personally I think it is what it is. Illa is as individual a game as a finger print. I love the fact there is both RP and game engine but I don’t like the fact that I feel bad almost naughty for using it, exploring it or pushing the boundaries of it.
I would like to see new character start off with a basic level of skills, something to give them a foundation for their character and an idea of what they can do or make. I also like this;
Cassandra Fjurin -Currently we have many different opinions. I think we shouldn't completely deactivate the cap now.
We should:
-increase the cap so you can learn longer.
-increase the recovery rate of your mind, so you can continue to train earlier.
-there shouldn't be a point where you aren't able to learn anything. (You only have less learning success)
I don’t want to see people power gaming in the true sense of the term but this seems more balanced and enjoyable. You will always have those without enough time to put in and those that do whatever system you have. Encourage and monitor not discourage and oppress.
The trouble with the game not being one or the other is; you make a character and RP them as a carpenter, after all this is an RP game all about the RP? But oh wait... you have no skill for it. So you spend your time learning how to RP but never making much money because limited time is used on your skill development. Your characters reputation as a carpenter is nothing as he can’t actually make anything worthy. But ay! Your RP is good only you just missed out on half of the games design, engine and fun in learning the system. I dare say even your RP suffers as well... you’re not actually a carpenter are you, so who’s going to trade with you.
So this time you make a new character and (for want of a better word) power game... But oh no, you run out of skill points mm... I’ll wait around AFK that’s ok to do in all other ‘RPG’s’ Besides I can’t RP a character that has no skill to BE that character. No you can’t, this is a true RPG get back in game and RP the same, ‘oh I forgot everything when I bashed my head on the boat here story.’ Until finally they have enough skill to do a little of what they wanted to and RP.
It’s always been this way, people who want to skill gain and enjoy the game engine and know it well have the brand of power gamer and those who RP and do it well get Elitist, everyone else just sits in the middle with half developed characters never quite getting there in either case and feeling a slight pinch of frustration.
Don’t get me wrong here, There are many exceptions to my rather broad examples. Just as I love this game, engine and community. This is not a dig just a regular observations I’ve seen so, so many times here. I don’t think I’ve ever seen the question asked what IS the game? That in my opinion is the key to the foundations of the skilling answer.
Personally I think it is what it is. Illa is as individual a game as a finger print. I love the fact there is both RP and game engine but I don’t like the fact that I feel bad almost naughty for using it, exploring it or pushing the boundaries of it.
I would like to see new character start off with a basic level of skills, something to give them a foundation for their character and an idea of what they can do or make. I also like this;
Cassandra Fjurin -Currently we have many different opinions. I think we shouldn't completely deactivate the cap now.
We should:
-increase the cap so you can learn longer.
-increase the recovery rate of your mind, so you can continue to train earlier.
-there shouldn't be a point where you aren't able to learn anything. (You only have less learning success)
I don’t want to see people power gaming in the true sense of the term but this seems more balanced and enjoyable. You will always have those without enough time to put in and those that do whatever system you have. Encourage and monitor not discourage and oppress.
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Juliana D'cheyne
- Posts: 1643
- Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:14 am
- Contact:
This should be repeatedDrathe wrote:I’ve been playing the game a long time now and one thing that has always seemed an issue is, what is the game? Is it an engine based skilling game with tolerance for a little character story or a haven for textual RP with some nice graphics to look at as you type. Depending on your style of play whether consistently or when the mood takes it could be either.
The trouble with the game not being one or the other is; you make a character and RP them as a carpenter, after all this is an RP game all about the RP? But oh wait... you have no skill for it. So you spend your time learning how to RP but never making much money because limited time is used on your skill development. Your characters reputation as a carpenter is nothing as he can’t actually make anything worthy. But ay! Your RP is good only you just missed out on half of the games design, engine and fun in learning the system. I dare say even your RP suffers as well... you’re not actually a carpenter are you, so who’s going to trade with you.
So this time you make a new character and (for want of a better word) power game... But oh no, you run out of skill points mm... I’ll wait around AFK that’s ok to do in all other ‘RPG’s’ Besides I can’t RP a character that has no skill to BE that character. No you can’t, this is a true RPG get back in game and RP the same, ‘oh I forgot everything when I bashed my head on the boat here story.’ Until finally they have enough skill to do a little of what they wanted to and RP.
It’s always been this way, people who want to skill gain and enjoy the game engine and know it well have the brand of power gamer and those who RP and do it well get Elitist, everyone else just sits in the middle with half developed characters never quite getting there in either case and feeling a slight pinch of frustration.
Don’t get me wrong here, There are many exceptions to my rather broad examples. Just as I love this game, engine and community. This is not a dig just a regular observations I’ve seen so, so many times here. I don’t think I’ve ever seen the question asked what IS the game? That in my opinion is the key to the foundations of the skilling answer.
Personally I think it is what it is. Illa is as individual a game as a finger print. I love the fact there is both RP and game engine but I don’t like the fact that I feel bad almost naughty for using it, exploring it or pushing the boundaries of it.
I would like to see new character start off with a basic level of skills, something to give them a foundation for their character and an idea of what they can do or make. I also like this;
Cassandra Fjurin -Currently we have many different opinions. I think we shouldn't completely deactivate the cap now.
We should:
-increase the cap so you can learn longer.
-increase the recovery rate of your mind, so you can continue to train earlier.
-there shouldn't be a point where you aren't able to learn anything. (You only have less learning success)
I don’t want to see people power gaming in the true sense of the term but this seems more balanced and enjoyable. You will always have those without enough time to put in and those that do whatever system you have. Encourage and monitor not discourage and oppress.
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David Turner
- Posts: 151
- Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:32 am
If there is role play around than I do that first ignoring any skill progression that I may need to build (generally) and getting around to skilling when I don't have anything else to do. When I hit the cap in those circumstances I take a quick look around again to see if anyone is there (sometimes things have changed, but not usually) and then I log. Other times when I really need to build a skill or do a task I always stop when I hit the cap.
Basically the cap says to me "you can either continue with what the character wants to get done (the task) or you can stop now and allow the character to learn how to do the task better (which he also wants to do), but not both. If you continue working you will be handicapped both now and later on your learning so you have to choose".
That is, quite honestly, very frustrating. Though, I also understand why the cap was put into place. I know enough power gaming to raise my skills to insane levels within only a couple days if there were no limit (as do many others). Still, the current system is so strict that it not only handicaps the powergamers but everyone else as well. There have also been more than a couple times when I had to give up on RP adventures (such as when someone asks me to go hunting with them) because I was at or near my limit and it just didn't seem worth the drawbacks to go (not only do I have the risk of the hunt and the time away from others that I am doing the thing, but I handicap everything else that I might want to do even after I return for my trouble. WTF?)
I would ask that you not remove the limit for many reasons (for instance to keep inteligence from becoming an even more useless stat to non-mages) but that you allow some learning after the cap has been reached and get rid of the lasting penalties on learning that come for passing it. That way if I choose to go over the cap I can still feel like my character is really progressing (albeit more slowly) and I can still come back later and be refreshed rather than get the double whammy of "you went too far, no more learning now or later either".
Basically the cap says to me "you can either continue with what the character wants to get done (the task) or you can stop now and allow the character to learn how to do the task better (which he also wants to do), but not both. If you continue working you will be handicapped both now and later on your learning so you have to choose".
That is, quite honestly, very frustrating. Though, I also understand why the cap was put into place. I know enough power gaming to raise my skills to insane levels within only a couple days if there were no limit (as do many others). Still, the current system is so strict that it not only handicaps the powergamers but everyone else as well. There have also been more than a couple times when I had to give up on RP adventures (such as when someone asks me to go hunting with them) because I was at or near my limit and it just didn't seem worth the drawbacks to go (not only do I have the risk of the hunt and the time away from others that I am doing the thing, but I handicap everything else that I might want to do even after I return for my trouble. WTF?)
I would ask that you not remove the limit for many reasons (for instance to keep inteligence from becoming an even more useless stat to non-mages) but that you allow some learning after the cap has been reached and get rid of the lasting penalties on learning that come for passing it. That way if I choose to go over the cap I can still feel like my character is really progressing (albeit more slowly) and I can still come back later and be refreshed rather than get the double whammy of "you went too far, no more learning now or later either".
I found this game two or three weeks ago, and I was disappointed...disappointed that it had taken me this long to discover. This is such a brilliant idea and game, and I cannot believe that it lets itself be dragged down by such an intense grind and the restrictions that have been discussed in this thread.
When I joined, I spent hours reading through the lore, these forums, and the wiki. I had several characters running through my head after seeing all the material provided, so chose one and fleshed out a background for it. Only to discover that every single character comes to Gobaith with as many skills as a slow, blind, bilingual kid in a wheelchair. This pretty much ruined every character I had in mind. I didn't want to spend weeks grinding my skills up to a reasonable level before making a public appearance. And I didn't want to roleplay an Albarian soldier who is unable to hold his own against a Halfling cook in combat, simply because the Halfling has spent more time on the isle.
How do you guys get around this?
I eventually settled on a mentally-unfit Orc who had been kicked out of his tribe after an unfortunate accident involving a sheep, fire, and a hot, dry day. He had barely even picked up a weapon before being expelled, so I don't feel so bad when he takes five minutes to put away a pig.
When I joined, I spent hours reading through the lore, these forums, and the wiki. I had several characters running through my head after seeing all the material provided, so chose one and fleshed out a background for it. Only to discover that every single character comes to Gobaith with as many skills as a slow, blind, bilingual kid in a wheelchair. This pretty much ruined every character I had in mind. I didn't want to spend weeks grinding my skills up to a reasonable level before making a public appearance. And I didn't want to roleplay an Albarian soldier who is unable to hold his own against a Halfling cook in combat, simply because the Halfling has spent more time on the isle.
How do you guys get around this?
I eventually settled on a mentally-unfit Orc who had been kicked out of his tribe after an unfortunate accident involving a sheep, fire, and a hot, dry day. He had barely even picked up a weapon before being expelled, so I don't feel so bad when he takes five minutes to put away a pig.
I think something like this is necessary. Let people decide what they did, where they came from and skills can be distributed accordingly. Give them an average level of skills, they did do something before coming here.Drathe wrote:I would like to see new character start off with a basic level of skills, something to give them a foundation for their character and an idea of what they can do or make.
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Tanistian_Kanea
- Posts: 646
- Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:22 am
ok. i have few things to say.
1. @ above, welcome, and it seems you have an interesting idea for an orc. i like it, and glad to have you
2. from above, i think starter packs should give more skill, possibly light green in one or two areas, pale blue in a few others. (yeah i know: but what about everyone in the past, this gives unfair advantages to new guys ext blah blah blah.... don't care. i remind you i'm in the same boat. if you don't want illarion to be about skills give them more off the bat, so they don't need to work on them and can actually do some roleplaying from the start rather than grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind...and for any poor saps you would be at a disadvatage is it possible for a gm to check if the skill levels of a character would be lower than what the starter skills would be set to? and correct them? perhaps have PO just send a PM saying they have no skills on character x so it just comes down to checking what skill set the picked years ago... or something)
3. yet again i come back to asking the same thing for a THIRD time because i have yet to get an answer. WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD? WHAT RESULT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACHIEVE BY CHANGING THE SKILL CAP? hopefully caps will make it easier to understand so i can get my answer. yes. i am agitated this has been ignored.
1. @ above, welcome, and it seems you have an interesting idea for an orc. i like it, and glad to have you
2. from above, i think starter packs should give more skill, possibly light green in one or two areas, pale blue in a few others. (yeah i know: but what about everyone in the past, this gives unfair advantages to new guys ext blah blah blah.... don't care. i remind you i'm in the same boat. if you don't want illarion to be about skills give them more off the bat, so they don't need to work on them and can actually do some roleplaying from the start rather than grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind...and for any poor saps you would be at a disadvatage is it possible for a gm to check if the skill levels of a character would be lower than what the starter skills would be set to? and correct them? perhaps have PO just send a PM saying they have no skills on character x so it just comes down to checking what skill set the picked years ago... or something)
3. yet again i come back to asking the same thing for a THIRD time because i have yet to get an answer. WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD? WHAT RESULT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACHIEVE BY CHANGING THE SKILL CAP? hopefully caps will make it easier to understand so i can get my answer. yes. i am agitated this has been ignored.
Hm... A quick thought I had.
What if, when a character first came to Gobaith, they're in a "resting" period. All skills are blue, as usual, for a set period of time, due to exhaustion from their travels.
After X amount of time ingame, a sudden skill boost is given in their areas of expertise, signaling a time when they are well enough rested to continue on with their life normally. This would let new players get a feel for the environment, try out their craft a bit, learn the ropes of Illarion... But it wouldn't limit a player's RP (and yes... the starting skills do limit it).
Not sure how scriptable this is, though
What if, when a character first came to Gobaith, they're in a "resting" period. All skills are blue, as usual, for a set period of time, due to exhaustion from their travels.
After X amount of time ingame, a sudden skill boost is given in their areas of expertise, signaling a time when they are well enough rested to continue on with their life normally. This would let new players get a feel for the environment, try out their craft a bit, learn the ropes of Illarion... But it wouldn't limit a player's RP (and yes... the starting skills do limit it).
Not sure how scriptable this is, though