Skillcap

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:02 am

Uh Numbers, umm lets see.

I really don't know - but I'd say that (assuming you play for 2 hours every day) - you shouldn't be able to get more than 50% in all useful fighting skills (1 weapon, tactics, parry, dodge) until you've played for at least a month. Similarly for the really beginning it should be broad but shallow - so you get a chance to try a bit of everything, but then it becomes deeper but not so much more broad - it might also be a way of stopping "smithing figher-mage miner-carpenters" characters.

Might need to be a bit balanced differently depending on the types of skills - crafters only really need 2, fighters need 4, while mages need 4 as well (like anyone ever uses Transfreto). So might need a bit of work in balancing - maybe different 'values' of each, I dunno.

I'm trying to keep the suggestion abstract for now - otherwise we'll get lost in the kinks and miss the forest for the trees.

Tanistian_Kanea · Post by **Tanistian_Kanea** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:18 am

like i said, i think i get it, but numbers just help clarify what it would look like when implemented.

Kevin Lightdot · Post by **Kevin Lightdot** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:51 pm

If you want to get another skill used in crafting, why not get something like finishing&polishing, a skill that just contributes to the quality of all items made or something. D:

And maybe a seperate repair skill for each main craft, this makes a need for old swords or tools that are normally just thrown away I guess.

That way there's 4, but I'm not quite sure how usefull this will really be.

Taiah · Post by **Taiah** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:58 pm

So, this would actually make it even harder for new players to skill?

Kevin Lightdot · Post by **Kevin Lightdot** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:59 pm

You can just change overall skilling rates in general, if it gets too hard, dunno, I dun do crafting xd

But atleast something like a seperate repair skill that contributes to quality of original items a bit AND allows for better repairs(eg. repairs that can make low quality weapons actually better, not draining one thing and adding the other, just using materials and basically upgrading a weapon) makes crafting a tad bit more dynamic, creating a need for used weaponry

Tanistian_Kanea · Post by **Tanistian_Kanea** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:11 pm

could someone (eg Matt) gives us a list of skills, and at what level they become useful, and at what level they sorta stop improving (example glassblowing and fishing, can't imagine those need to get really high to be good)

Kevin Lightdot · Post by **Kevin Lightdot** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:18 pm

I dun see the relevance there.

Gathering skills just get faster and have less fail chance, or allow you to gather certain other materials(the latter only applicable to herblore)

Crafting skills give you new items, and the further you pass an item's needed skill the better you make the items, and minimize the fail rate as far as I remember.

Really everything is more useful at a real high level as it just gets faster/less material loss due to failing.

Unless you only want to make a certain low skill item.

I don't think this is part of the issue here, you need a minimum in fighting skill too to be able to kill a mummy or two, you need a minimum crafting skill to be able to make an item that is decent and not loose too much materials.

Ranwyln · Post by **Ranwyln** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:46 pm

i really like the skilling system... i am around several weeks already....and i am trying to get as good as possible in fighting....only thing thats annoy me is mages are killing everything in a single cast (atleast what i have seen so far)..lich dead in 4-6 seconds...and a warrior will not be able to do that...
magic to be rare is a good thing.... but....even a novice mage can ghost a high skilled warrior...thats a mistake in my eyes....i will never lern magic...(even if i get the possibilty with a char) cause its just to easy...if i ever manage to kill a dragon in a normal fight i will be happy (but so far as i know it isnt possible) that should be changed....same with magic resistance...make magic easier to learn...or at least to fight off magicians....cause so far (especially in the battle around bane) i was only running away getting my ass saved....
magic powerfull alright....but please not the only power that can deal everything...

cheers Ranwyln...

Juliana D'cheyne · Post by **Juliana D'cheyne** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:53 pm

Ranwyln wrote:i really like the skilling system... i am around several weeks already....and i am trying to get as good as possible in fighting....only thing thats annoy me is mages are killing everything in a single cast (atleast what i have seen so far)..lich dead in 4-6 seconds...and a warrior will not be able to do that...
magic to be rare is a good thing.... but....even a novice mage can ghost a high skilled warrior...thats a mistake in my eyes....i will never lern magic...(even if i get the possibilty with a char) cause its just to easy...if i ever manage to kill a dragon in a normal fight i will be happy (but so far as i know it isnt possible) that should be changed....same with magic resistance...make magic easier to learn...or at least to fight off magicians....cause so far (especially in the battle around bane) i was only running away getting my ass saved....
magic powerfull alright....but please not the only power that can deal everything...

cheers Ranwyln...

Your facts are wrong on mages, a search on the forum can help if not familiar with the mechanics and skill levels. Also, no one can kill a dragon on their own, it is purposefully made for group effort, same as the quest at Bane.

Ranwyln · Post by **Ranwyln** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:54 pm

so far magic is the stuff more powerfull as the rest....and people trying to become mages need to get a teacher...thats alright...
but to kill a mage is even harder....they kill everything...thats what i dont like...maybe introduce magic resistant enemys...so they will need a warrior...cause at least the dragon cave wont be in reach for normal players unless they got some magic friends...and evn if they got some they need to be helpfull....magic so far is in my eyes overpowered...and i would like to see something else about it...(yes getting a mage is a hard long long way)....but becoming a good fighter is hard too...i love Illa....but that really annoys me....a mage is powerfull...but he isnt a god...and so far...i only saw godlike powers from mages....killing several enemys in seconds....(including players)
will try to get some ideas about it and will post them in proposals....but so far they are only overpowered...

cheers Ranwyln

Juliana D'cheyne · Post by **Juliana D'cheyne** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:58 pm

Ranwyln wrote:so far magic is the stuff more powerfull as the rest....and people trying to become mages need to get a teacher...thats alright...
but to kill a mage is even harder....they kill everything...thats what i dont like...maybe introduce magic resistant enemys...so they will need a warrior...cause at least the dragon cave wont be in reach for normal players unless they got some magic friends...and evn if they got some they need to be helpfull....magic so far is in my eyes overpowered...and i would like to see something else about it...(yes getting a mage is a hard long long way)....but becoming a good fighter is hard too...i love Illa....but that really annoys me....a mage is powerfull...but he isnt a god...and so far...i only saw godlike powers from mages....killing several enemys in seconds....(including players)
will try to get some ideas about it and will post them in proposals....but so far they are only overpowered...

cheers Ranwyln

Mages can be killed *winks* but won't tell you how.

Ranwyln · Post by **Ranwyln** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:59 pm

Julian that could be...but i dont know a warrior or anything else that is able to deal with a mage unless he is a mage too...magic is hard to get thats good.....when i try to deal with a magician its nearly 100% a loose...they are powerfull thats alright...but...magic resistance is at least for me (maybe i am to dumb for it) hard to skill....and so its giving a class (mages) a big advantage...and unless you find someone that is willing to teach you...you are lost....and thats in my eyes the wrong way...cause magic a secret..alright...but magicians...as the one and only...is wrong...

cheers will go to bed now will respond tommorrow again...

Juliana D'cheyne · Post by **Juliana D'cheyne** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:04 pm

Ranwyln wrote:Julian that could be...but i dont know a warrior or anything else that is able to deal with a mage unless he is a mage too...magic is hard to get thats good.....when i try to deal with a magician its nearly 100% a loose...they are powerfull thats alright...but...magic resistance is at least for me (maybe i am to dumb for it) hard to skill....and so its giving a class (mages) a big advantage...and unless you find someone that is willing to teach you...you are lost....and thats in my eyes the wrong way...cause magic a secret..alright...but magicians...as the one and only...is wrong...

cheers will go to bed now will respond tommorrow again...

Hating to get off topic but I am gathering you want your two month old fighter to be able to kill a mage in game for over two years. Doesn't seem fair to me.

Back on topic...I dont think skills should be made harder for new players even if it prevents them from gathering skills the older players has, it is sort of a never-ending cycle using that logic.

Kugar · Post by **Kugar** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:31 pm

I was a ~bit~ harsh. think I'll just stay out of this one.

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:31 pm

Ranwyln wrote:..
magic to be rare is a good thing.... but....even a novice mage can ghost a high skilled warrior...thats a mistake in my eyes....i will never lern magic...(even if i get the possibilty with a char) cause its just to easy...if i ever manage to kill a dragon in a normal fight i will be happy (but so far as i know it isnt possible) that should be changed....same with magic resistance...make magic easier to learn...or at least to fight off magicians....cause so far (especially in the battle around bane) i was only running away getting my ass saved....
magic powerfull alright....but please not the only power that can deal everything...

cheers Ranwyln...

A novice mage can ghost....nothing. You just haven't seen a novice mage which is why you have no point of comparison. novice mage v.s. high skilled warrior the high skilled warrior will win 99% of the time.

for the record a novice mage is not a mage with all his runes who casts Qwan spells, that would be an advanced mage.

A high skilled fighter is not a warrior with light green skills (marking your 50-60%if your lucky

). A high skilled warrior is generally a warrior in his yellows (70's-100)

There are in fact very few high skilled warriors ingame, and there are very few novice mages in game. So this means that pvp wise noivce and medium skill warriors are far more likely to meet up with an advanced A$$ stomping mage who will then pwn you in seconds. and those warriors that would slice said mage to bits in seconds are not really around to often to do so (or at least in no great number)

As to the cap. I like the idea of a cap extension as opposed to getting rid of it completely. Also the partitioning of one catagory of skills form another also sounds like an excellent idea. this would stop unwanted skill loss for activities that arent the target of 'training'.

Those are where i would place my votes

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:31 pm

NPCs do have magic resistance. Dragons, golems, even the members of the Salk army had enough magic resistance to repel all my spells. Also, if you see a mage who's killing things in one shot, they've been learning runes at the fastest rate possible for atleast 11 weeks.

nmaguire · Post by **nmaguire** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:19 pm

Here's the rule of good mages versus good fighters:
If the fighter is stood more than 3 squares away from the mage, and gets paralysed, he's dead. If he is stood close enough and/or does not get paralysed, he wins. So good mages have a MASSIVE advantage if they fight right, I don't care what anyone says.

1d20 · Post by **1d20** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm

nmaguire wrote:Here's the rule of good mages versus good fighters:
If the fighter is stood more than 3 squares away from the mage, and gets paralysed, he's dead. If he is stood close enough and/or does not get paralysed, he wins. So good mages have a MASSIVE advantage if they fight right, I don't care what anyone says.

Lol that's totally not true.

AlexRose · Post by **AlexRose** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm

And mages cannot 1 hit kill anything that isn't like.. a rabbit or something.

Btw, just so you know, when I was a novice mage, it took me 60 kel ras to kill 1 pig. And he also reflected lots of them back at me. And I have maxed out int/ess/will (for a human char).

For a necro (or any other mage monster, e.g. the salk enemies), it usually takes about 5 of the strongest spell (which depletes a lot of your mana bar in the process and also has a cast time of like 2-3 seconds per spell) to kill one. For a fighter char they die pretty fast, usually about 3 of those spells. This is with magic skills in the 60s, BUT, wait for it, maxed int/ess/will (i.e. best skill bonus I can possibly have; you can never achieve this in the fighting system because more than 3 atts contribute to your skill) and a wind wand, icebird amulet, topaz ring, masters mage robe and archmage ring, all of extremely high quality. With this equipment I was able to cast the 100% pervestigatio spells when they were harder to cast before, so effectively my skill level in pervy/commotio is 100. (Feel free if you're Nitram or someone to go on a big rant on how I'm wrong but that's how I take it to be). Still, if an uber warrior, like, say, Dom, attacked me, I'd be dead before I could run away, or cast a spell.

Most mages you see ig have been around a LOOONG time, and that's why they're so powerful. Whereas most of the fighters you meet are rather new and thing they're strong with green skills. Pretty much, if a maxed fighter lands the first blow with twin serinjahs on a mage, the mage is unlikely to win, however if the mage attacks first from across the screen and uses a combination of paralysis/attacks, or just pushing the person back and attacks, he is likely to win. The person who attacks first out of the master mage and the master fighter nearly always wins. Maybe the mage has a bit of advantage because he has more strategy and diversity, what with a plethora of skills, whereas the fighter can only choose where to walk and the engine does the individual attacks for him as soon as he's in range.

And I'm not sure how it is nowadays but golems and dragons used to have 100% magic resistance and you needed to just spam heals at a fighter.

And yes, as people said, since most people have to play for over a year before they even find a teacher, and then probably a year learning magic, a fighter who's been here a month or two should be able to defeat them.

Athankyougoodnight.

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:16 am

But a fighter that's been in game two+ years can't kill a skilled mage 90% of the time who's been in game half the time.... How'd we get on this topic?

Cassandra Fjurin · Post by **Cassandra Fjurin** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:30 am

Currently we have many different oppinions. I thinks we shouldn't completely deactivate the cap now.
We should:
-increase the cap so you can learn longer.
-increase the recovery rate of your mind, so you can continue to train earlyer.
-there shouldn't be a point where you aren't able to learn anything. (you only have less learning success)

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:32 am

Cassandra Fjurin wrote: -there shouldn't be a point where you aren't able to learn anything. (you only have less learning success)

Consider going with a boosted/normal approach, instead of a normal/reduced approach on this matter.

Tanistian_Kanea · Post by **Tanistian_Kanea** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:24 pm

Cassandra Fjurin wrote:Currently we have many different oppinions. I thinks we shouldn't completely deactivate the cap now.
We should:
-increase the cap so you can learn longer.
-increase the recovery rate of your mind, so you can continue to train earlyer.
-there shouldn't be a point where you aren't able to learn anything. (you only have less learning success)

no, i don't think we should do this at all. i think you need a reduced/normal/boosted approach. but that is just me. i still don't think it should be made easier to skill. how did this topic get raised anyway? like why where you looking to change this in this way?

Mesha · Post by **Mesha** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:28 pm

Because people are annoyed by the system?

The game is in alpha-state, Tanistian, and sometimes we experiment with things; Throw things out there and what not. I think getting away with a system that only discourages casual players (who often only have one evening of play), and does nothing to discourage powergamers in their quest for the yellow is not a bad venture.

Instead of disparaging remarks about the topic at hand (What? How dare you question the current system?!), I hope you could offer Cassandra with a more detailed proposal to your "reduced/normal/boosted"-approach; This, so Cassandra or another developer can take inspiration from it.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:32 pm

Some portion of players simply log out when they hit the skill cap, and the developers are looking to keep more people in game, regardless of what they're doing.

Edit: Mesha beat me to it.

Depending on the severity of the reduced rate of skill gain, I think a skill cap is preferable. Being unsure of why your skill rate is increasing very slowly is far more frustrating that a skill cap, because the player doesn't know why they're not gaining skill.

Kevin Lightdot · Post by **Kevin Lightdot** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:33 pm

Didn't Illarion move past alpha for quite a while now? xd

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:42 pm

If Cassandra, and whoever else is responsible for modifying the skill system, are really looking for solutions from the players, I think it would be hugely beneficial to establish a clear goal before moving forward with solutions. Maybe it's more well established in Cassandra's mind, but to me it appears quite vague what the goal of the skill system is. What do you want to achieve? A distribution in skill that's more closely correlated with the length of time spent playing a character? A system that rewards roleplaying? Something that doesn't frustrate players?

If people knew what was trying to be achieved, we could propose much more targetted solutions, rather than proposing solutions that focus on what we want the skill system to look like. Or, in the case that goals haven't even been established yet, maybe it's a bit hasty to look for solutions before we're even fully aware of what the problem is.

Tanistian_Kanea · Post by **Tanistian_Kanea** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:44 pm

@ mesha

I did once. Hadrian proposed a modified system. They both got almost entirely ignored.

Tanistian_Kanea wrote:
Nalzaxx wrote:What you fail to realise is that people who know how to powergame will create stronger characters quicker regardless of whether there is a skill cap or not.

In fact the skill cap gives powergamers an advantage over normal players because they know their way around it better. They can maximise the results with as little interference as possible. Whereas the normal players are more frustrated and hindered by the skillcap.

Powergaming is inherent in any game with persistant and improveable skills.

It is up to the individual player whether they want to do the grind thing or work on their skills in a more roleplay friendly way.

Personally what saddens me most is when a group goes on a big roleplay adventure and has lots of fun untill someone hits the skillcap. Suddenly the fun and adventure is gone and replaced by "Ugh, I need to rest for a bit." because players suddenly dont see the point continuing if they are (in a sense) wasting their time. Skilling should be based around making things fun and dynamic for the players, not trying to prevent powergamers getting an advantage.

Because in the end, they have an advantage whatever you do.
right now you loose concentration (-#). when you reach the cap you slowly regenerate concentration. till nuetral. why not simply make it after x hours of not skilling after reaching 0 (fully rested as of right now) you begin to slowly gain more concentration in reserve. (+#) this reserve concentration could either make it easier to learn or simply extend the amount of time you can learn. this would not help the Powergamers as much as it would the ordinary person. however this i brought up in a diferent thread in the proposal section, tought i would mention it here as this topic has reached a similar topic point. this would discourage powergaming and role playing especially if some sort of bonus was given to how fast you can learn. i hope this makes sense.

Tanistian_Kanea wrote:
Hadrian_Abela wrote:Hrm, here's an idea I just had.

Instead of putting a 'time spent skilling' cap, put a time dependant on how long you've been online total.

You place a cap such that if you've been playing for X hours online - you can only reach Y% skill maximum, and Z% skill total.

The limit reaches zero eventually.

If, after a period of time, you still have less than A% skill total, then you start getting a bonus to increase skill - which diminishes as your skill increases- until you're normal again.

What this will do:

- It'll mean that brand new PG-er characters do not end up maxed out within weeks of their creation
- It'll guarantee that older players gain more skill
- It'll mean that characters who have been playing for AGES, and not skilled enough, will get some skill - this means that long-term 'roleplayers' can catch up with those who have been skilling for ages.

Discuss.
i think i understand. put in a few scenarios with semi appropriate numbers as examples please.

Tanistian_Kanea · Post by **Tanistian_Kanea** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:46 pm

Korwin wrote:If Cassandra, and whoever else is responsible for modifying the skill system, are really looking for solutions from the players, I think it would be hugely beneficial to establish a clear goal before moving forward with solutions. Maybe it's more well established in Cassandra's mind, but to me it appears quite vague what the goal of the skill system is. What do you want to achieve? A distribution in skill that's more closely correlated with the length of time spent playing a character? A system that rewards roleplaying? Something that doesn't frustrate players?

If people knew what was trying to be achieved, we could propose much more targetted solutions, rather than proposing solutions that focus on what we want the skill system to look like. Or, in the case that goals haven't even been established yet, maybe it's a bit hasty to look for solutions before we're even fully aware of what the problem is.

Also at Mesha. This is why I was asking what it the reason for doing this. This is what I meant. Thank you.

I understand things change. With this I wanted to know what was trying to be achieved. Because from all I saw (and all you have said) is this is meant to help people in a similar position to me, yet this would make it worse for me, so I was confused, looking for an explanation. Thank you.

Ragorn · Post by **Ragorn** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:03 pm

*LOL*

Removing the skill cap is useless in my opinon, the reasons can be read earlier in this thread.

An easy soltution to make the time effort for PGing a mage and a fighter comparable:
Increase the skilling spead for the mages clearly.

Illarion.org

Skillcap

What do you do if the char gets the message: "You urgently need to rest to be mentally fit again."/Was machst du wenn dein Char die Nachricht bekommt: "Du brauchst dringend Ruhe, um wieder geistig fit zu sein."