Skillcap

[Rhianna Morgan]

bei mir jedenfalls nicht! meine chars entwickeln sich über rp weiter, das skillen mache ich wenn ichs tue entweder automatisch beim produzieren von irgendwas oder aber gezwungenermassen um nicht völlig ab vom schuss zu sein (was ich meist trotzdem bin weil ich einfach nicht die zeit hab gross zu skillen)

[Juliana D'cheyne]

Now my statement. I startet this poll to find out how much players we lose during the mental regeneration phase. And this are 25%. we overthink to disable the whole skillcap thingie. Because we think noone will play more rp because of it. The ones who wan't to play rp aren't affected by the system. The ones who wan't to train their chars can stay IG and train. So they are available for roleplay too.

Skilling is on the whole extremely boring to constantly do the same thing over and over so I can't see very many continueing it for hours on end. Some new players unsure of the RP aspect would benefit as they have a reason to stay longer in game, gradually becoming more confident with their RP. According to the poll, and I agree, making the cap to encourage RP really has no effect at least on the older players.

@Moondust

Doesn't hurt to try for a while, I guess?

[Friedwulfa]

Nun, an der Stelle muss ich mal einfach sagen das am frustrierendsten am ganzen Illa für mich die Chars sind, die man kaum vor 3-4 Wochen das erste Mal ig gesehen hat und dann schon Kampfskills haben das sie jedem Durchschnittskrieger den Arsch versohlen können.

Deswegen würde ich am ehesten darüber nachdenken was es für Alternativen zum Skillcap gäbe, anstatt ihn ersatzlos zu streichen.

Was da Serverseitig am besten umsetzbar ist kann ich leider nicht beurteilen deswegen hat ich mich mit Vorschlgen mal noch zurück.

[Kranek]

vielleicht ein *sich weit aus dem fenster lehn* maximal skill der mit der onlinezeit des chars erreichbar ist?
bsp:
1 woche max. 20%
2 wochen max 30% etc.

werte sind NATÜRLICH nur beispielhaft und bedürfen eines ausbaus...

[Olaf Tingvatn]

so the skill cap thing is gone now? guess i gotta head ingame and powergame for a good 30 minuts before bedtime then...


Edit: why not just bump everyones skill to max? easier that way..hmh..no more epic wars where the powergamers win and those with less time to powergame will loose..hmh..maybe just add "set your own skill" when creating a character? so that you can max out 3-4 skills



i just had to get that one out or i would have been screaming myself to sleep............................

well do as you must..come friday and/or monday i will be taking a long break from IllaRION..or maybe not ...

im not to fond of this if you havent noticed by now.....>,<

[Tialdin]

... gekürzt ...

Ich stimme mal bewusst oben nicht ab, weil es einfach schwer ist sich für eine der Positionen zu entscheiden. Wenn ich ehrlich bin, gemacht hab ich alles drei schon.

Das sehe ich genauso, das ist halt Situationsabhängig, und davon abhängig welche Charaktere
gerade noch so rumlaufen.

Gerade hab ich Urlaub und bin viel Nachts und Vormittags unterwegs, RP ist da leider nicht,
weil die drei Spieler die on sind sich nicht über den weg laufen. Abends ist s natürlich lustig
mit dem haufen Leute.

Was mich allerdings stört, ist das man in manche Gebiete schlicht und ergreifend deswegen nicht rein kann,
weil man ohne Magier oder extrme gepowerte Kampfwerte nicht überlebt. Also kann ich nur dort hin,
wo ich mich auskenne. Erforschen von mir unbekannten Gebieten ist viel zu gefährlich.

[Guir Rabenflügel]

Na ja... wenn ich den Skillcap erreicht habe, kommt es ganz darauf an, was ich gerade geskillt habe. Wenn ich an was arbeite, arbeite ich für normal weiter, wenn ich mit was fertig werden will. Bei solchen Sachen wie Instrumente oder ähnliches kommt es auf die Umgebung an, wie viele Spieler um mich rum sind. Wenn die Spaß daran haben, mir zuzuhören, mach ich natürlich weiter

Andernfalls hör ich auf zu Skillen und such mir n nettes RP. Und wenn ich keins finde, dann log ich aus ^^

[Llama]

To be honest I don't think the skillcap does anything.

In the end, it gets so obscenely hard to skill up, that you'd just log off anyway. I haven't hit the skillcap for AGES now, the idea of spending a few more hours making rubbish to throw away is daunting enough.

[Ragorn]

Now my statement. I startet this poll to find out how much players we lose during the mental regeneration phase. And this are 25%. we overthink to disable the whole skillcap thingie. Because we think noone will play more rp because of it. The ones who wan't to play rp aren't affected by the system. The ones who wan't to train their chars can stay IG and train. So they are available for roleplay too.

Thanks! Give those players, who mostly PG and have too much spare (RL) time the ability to "create" their uber fighters/mages/crafter/jacks-of-all-trades in a much shorter time span!

Those who train (including me, if my character fights and "sleeps" in the graveyard continously several days) are already away for RP during training, independent on the mental regeneration phase. And why are'nt they not available for RP? Because the training places (e.g. graveyard, gnolls, etc.) are too far away from populated places.

Its very sad, that this once RP focussed game started to move to an engine and skill based game like many others and looses its uniqueness.

I am for
- much faster skill gain (reach the skill cap much faster, so that the boaring PGing can be stopped earlier)
- skill loss, if working/training is continued after reaching the cap (you overstrained your character, and that cannot be good for her/him!)
- mental regeneration only during IG time to bring the powergamers (and me during the graveyard training) back to RP.
- make the training areas much easier to reach (magic teleport fields, new spell books, new teleporting items (e.g. a special bone that only drops in the graveyard and can be used to teleport your char into the center of the graveyard), and so on)

[Pancho]

Um eine Kleinigkeit, die mir persönlich in meinem Spielverhalten aufgefallen ist, und zu dem Thema passt, anzumerken:

Wenn ich spiele versuche ich manchmal zuallererst die Skillcap zu erreichen, bevor ich mich anderen Dingen widme.
Gekoppelt damit, habe ich nach erreichen der Skillcap dann entweder keine Zeit mehr (skillen dauert lange) oder keine Lust mehr zu spielen und logge danach aus. Wenn man sich wirklich aufs skillen konzentrieren will, tritt dabei auch das Rp etwas in den Hintergrund (niemand wird die Herstellung jedes einzelnen Holzprodukts mit 3-5 #me's bedenken).

Irgendwie übt das System einen gewissen Zwang aus, sodass man wenn man mit unverbrauchter Cap irgendwo rumsteht und rp't es einem in den Fingern juckt doch irgendwie skillen zu gehen, da alles andere sozusagen "verlorene" Zeit ist, was Skillerhalt betrifft.

Das momentane System belohnt Online Zeit, wenn sie NACHDEM man den Skillcap erreicht hat im Spiel verbringt,
und diejenigen Spieler, die momentan hohe Skills haben, halten es wahrscheinlich auch so, dass sie Rp'n nachdem sie geskillt haben.
Was aber ist mit den Leuten, die einloggen und sofort in ein RP geraten?

Gewissermaßen werden auf diese Art diejenigen Spieler bestraft, die Illarion eben NICHT um ihre Skills zu trainieren spielen, sondern das Spiel und auch RP nehmen wie es kommt.

Aus persönlicher Erfahrung weiß ich auch dass es soweit geht dass dadurch sogar RP-Situationen zerstört werden können. Nicht nur einmal wurde einer meiner Chars schon abgeblockt mit einem "entschuldigt mich aber ich muss jetzt arbeiten gehen".

Ich glaube die Möglichkeit, selbst zu bestimmen wann man skillt und wann man rp't wäre die optimalste Lösung des Problems.
Warum soll ein Spieler, der zuerst skillt, seine Skillcap erreicht, dann rp't, dann nochmals skillt einen Vorteil durch "schnelleres Lernen" gegenüber einem Spieler haben der zuerst rp't, dann skillt und dann ausloggt, angenommen beide verbringen die selbe Zeitspanne IG?

Ich spreche mich daher für eine Abschaffung der Skillcap aus.

Um auch schon auf den (berechtigten) Einwand der bestimmt aufgeworfen wird zu antworten: "Aber dann Pg'n manche ohne Ende!"

Ja, das mag sein. Aber ich glaube, dass es Möglichkeiten gibt, die Daten eines Chars (Skillwachstum, Online Zeit etc.) die ja bereits in einer Datenbank vorhanden sind, so aufzubereiten, dass den Gms Charaktere, die sich durch extrem lange Online Zeit / extrem schnellen Skillgain in kurzer Zeit auszeichnen, aufgezeigt werden, damit diese sie dann zu dem schnellen Skillwachstum befragen können.

[Greisling]

Interessant, dass diese Diskussion geführt wird, da unser Skill-system-master-mind Estralis Seborian sich vorübergehend abgemeldet hat

Ob ein simples "Wir schalten das Skillcap aus" der richtige Weg ist, mag ich persönlich sehr, sehr stark bezweifeln.

Das Skillsystem wurde in der Vergangenheit oft diskutiert, zuletzt ausführlich hier:
Zusammenfassung
Estralis' Vorschlag

Die meisten Interessierten scheinen sich darüber einig, dass das derzeitige Skillsystem optimiert werden sollte.


Lieber Staff, wenn ihr euch daran setzt, das Skillcap zu ändern, dann nutzt bitte die Möglichkeit, um ein neues Skillsystem zu entwickeln. Gute Vorschläge dazu gibt es viele und seit langem.

Sers,
Greisling

[Nalzaxx]

What you fail to realise is that people who know how to powergame will create stronger characters quicker regardless of whether there is a skill cap or not.

In fact the skill cap gives powergamers an advantage over normal players because they know their way around it better. They can maximise the results with as little interference as possible. Whereas the normal players are more frustrated and hindered by the skillcap.

Powergaming is inherent in any game with persistant and improveable skills.

It is up to the individual player whether they want to do the grind thing or work on their skills in a more roleplay friendly way.

Personally what saddens me most is when a group goes on a big roleplay adventure and has lots of fun untill someone hits the skillcap. Suddenly the fun and adventure is gone and replaced by "Ugh, I need to rest for a bit." because players suddenly dont see the point continuing if they are (in a sense) wasting their time. Skilling should be based around making things fun and dynamic for the players, not trying to prevent powergamers getting an advantage.

Because in the end, they have an advantage whatever you do.

[Juliana D'cheyne]

What you fail to realise is that people who know how to powergame will create stronger characters quicker regardless of whether there is a skill cap or not.

In fact the skill cap gives powergamers an advantage over normal players because they know their way around it better. They can maximise the results with as little interference as possible. Whereas the normal players are more frustrated and hindered by the skillcap.

Powergaming is inherent in any game with persistant and improveable skills.

It is up to the individual player whether they want to do the grind thing or work on their skills in a more roleplay friendly way.

Personally what saddens me most is when a group goes on a big roleplay adventure and has lots of fun untill someone hits the skillcap. Suddenly the fun and adventure is gone and replaced by "Ugh, I need to rest for a bit." because players suddenly dont see the point continuing if they are (in a sense) wasting their time. Skilling should be based around making things fun and dynamic for the players, not trying to prevent powergamers getting an advantage.

Because in the end, they have an advantage whatever you do.

Perfectly said and so true. I have played one game there was a skill cap but not on individual skills.. the cap was total on all skills. To originally get skills and increase enough to RP what you are skilled was fairly easy. Yet no two chars were alike, each picking different skills to use. You had a choice of having more skills if just average desired... if wanted to max, it reduced the total amount of skills so had less of a choice on the variety.

[Kevin Lightdot]

Perfectly said and so true. I have played one game there was a skill cap but not on individual skills.. the cap was total on all skills. To originally get skills and increase enough to RP what you are skilled was fairly easy. Yet no two chars were alike, each picking different skills to use. You had a choice of having more skills if just average desired... if wanted to max, it reduced the total amount of skills so had less of a choice on the variety.

UO?

[Juliana D'cheyne]

Yes.. most UO seem to have the cap for total skills and not on a skill by skill basis. Makes skilling easier, and chars still different. The skill cap..uber char problem with Illa is not seen.

[Kevin Lightdot]

Well, the system isn't bad at all IMO, it's just not very Illarion.

[Tanistian_Kanea]

What you fail to realise is that people who know how to powergame will create stronger characters quicker regardless of whether there is a skill cap or not.

In fact the skill cap gives powergamers an advantage over normal players because they know their way around it better. They can maximise the results with as little interference as possible. Whereas the normal players are more frustrated and hindered by the skillcap.

Powergaming is inherent in any game with persistant and improveable skills.

It is up to the individual player whether they want to do the grind thing or work on their skills in a more roleplay friendly way.

Personally what saddens me most is when a group goes on a big roleplay adventure and has lots of fun untill someone hits the skillcap. Suddenly the fun and adventure is gone and replaced by "Ugh, I need to rest for a bit." because players suddenly dont see the point continuing if they are (in a sense) wasting their time. Skilling should be based around making things fun and dynamic for the players, not trying to prevent powergamers getting an advantage.

Because in the end, they have an advantage whatever you do.

right now you loose concentration (-#). when you reach the cap you slowly regenerate concentration. till nuetral. why not simply make it after x hours of not skilling after reaching 0 (fully rested as of right now) you begin to slowly gain more concentration in reserve. (+#) this reserve concentration could either make it easier to learn or simply extend the amount of time you can learn. this would not help the Powergamers as much as it would the ordinary person. however this i brought up in a diferent thread in the proposal section, tought i would mention it here as this topic has reached a similar topic point. this would discourage powergaming and role playing especially if some sort of bonus was given to how fast you can learn. i hope this makes sense.

[Orioli]

Well, the system isn't bad at all IMO, it's just not very Illarion.

This too is well said.

[nmaguire]

right now you loose concentration (-#). when you reach the cap you slowly regenerate concentration. till nuetral. why not simply make it after x hours of not skilling after reaching 0 (fully rested as of right now) you begin to slowly gain more concentration in reserve. (+#) this reserve concentration could either make it easier to learn or simply extend the amount of time you can learn. this would not help the Powergamers as much as it would the ordinary person. however this i brought up in a diferent thread in the proposal section, tought i would mention it here as this topic has reached a similar topic point. this would discourage powergaming and role playing especially if some sort of bonus was given to how fast you can learn. i hope this makes sense.

Or, or! The skillcap could get removed, as Cassandra said it would. I know what Nalzaxx means, it happened loads to/with/from me, especially when down in the yard or something, or fighting a horde of demon skeletons together, whatever, capping just seemed to make it a little less fun, especially when you instantly hit cap from a skill you didn't even want to train.

[Tanistian_Kanea]

na, i like the skill cap. i don't really want to see it go

[nmaguire]

And yet you complain that you can't skill up.

[Tanistian_Kanea]

And yet you complain that you can't skill up.

yes? i'm missing something here.

[Llama]

Hrm, here's an idea I just had.

Instead of putting a 'time spent skilling' cap, put a time dependant on how long you've been online total.

You place a cap such that if you've been playing for X hours online - you can only reach Y% skill maximum, and Z% skill total.

The limit reaches zero eventually.

If, after a period of time, you still have less than A% skill total, then you start getting a bonus to increase skill - which diminishes as your skill increases- until you're normal again.

What this will do:

- It'll mean that brand new PG-er characters do not end up maxed out within weeks of their creation
- It'll guarantee that older players gain more skill
- It'll mean that characters who have been playing for AGES, and not skilled enough, will get some skill - this means that long-term 'roleplayers' can catch up with those who have been skilling for ages.

Discuss.

[The great one]

right now you loose concentration (-#).

This means absolutely NOTHING AT ALL. It's not big, and it's not clever.





Powergamer= RL FAIL

[The great one]

Discuss.

Godamnit you are patronizing.

Suggestion:

Ok. Currently we achieve (+X*^&) when we go to red skeley wellies and loot Z amount of X's.
A "£23 would buy seven G's from R and then F would Uck and by +'ing'P we get a nice round (BOOBIES!)

Discuss?

[Llama]

Never post while drunk

[The great one]

Never post while drunk

#me bursts into tears and tells Hadrian what a good guy he is, before vomiting all over himself

[Kranek]

@llama-guy:
dude, im trying to propose THE SAME in german right now...

[Llama]

@llama-guy:
dude, im trying to propose THE SAME in german right now...

Great, now we can apply ourselves to both sides of the community

[Tanistian_Kanea]

Hrm, here's an idea I just had.

Instead of putting a 'time spent skilling' cap, put a time dependant on how long you've been online total.

You place a cap such that if you've been playing for X hours online - you can only reach Y% skill maximum, and Z% skill total.

The limit reaches zero eventually.

If, after a period of time, you still have less than A% skill total, then you start getting a bonus to increase skill - which diminishes as your skill increases- until you're normal again.

What this will do:

- It'll mean that brand new PG-er characters do not end up maxed out within weeks of their creation
- It'll guarantee that older players gain more skill
- It'll mean that characters who have been playing for AGES, and not skilled enough, will get some skill - this means that long-term 'roleplayers' can catch up with those who have been skilling for ages.

Discuss.

i think i understand. put in a few scenarios with semi appropriate numbers as examples please.