Magic discussion lolol oh no

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Gerron Lavace
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Magic discussion lolol oh no

Post by Gerron Lavace »

How about a simple message on the homepage / accounts page that tells newbies they should really play for a month or so before they try making a mage char.


Advantages:

Takes a few seconds?

New guys won't enter the game spending their first days looking for a mage teacher, then become bored or realise the truth, then possibly quit out of dissapointment.

I suppose it would also work well with any new easy-to-get-magic system, we may not get flooded with every noob being a mage right away, some might enjoy the warrior they've started off with for example, and want to stick with it.


Disadvantages:

I seriously didn't even spend any time thinking about this proposal, it just popped up in my head and I decided to write it down because I usually don't contribute anything but annoying posts dotted around the forums. So if this is a shit idea for whatever reason just say so.
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Llama
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Re: Magic discussion lolol oh no

Post by Llama »

Gerron Lavace wrote:How about a simple message on the homepage / accounts page that tells newbies they should really play for a Century or so before they try making a mage char.
I fixed a small mistake you did up there.

There should be a warning as soon as you pick the battlemage/mage attributes or starting package.
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Re: Magic discussion lolol oh no

Post by 1d20 »

Hadrian_Abela wrote:
Gerron Lavace wrote:How about a simple message on the homepage / accounts page that tells newbies they should really play for a Century or so before they try making a mage char.
That ain't true... it all depends of teacher availability really.
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Tanistian_Kanea
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Post by Tanistian_Kanea »

However a warning saying that it may or may not take several months might be a good thing.
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Nitram
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Re: Magic discussion lolol oh no

Post by Nitram »

MoonDust wrote:
Hadrian_Abela wrote:
Gerron Lavace wrote:How about a simple message on the homepage / accounts page that tells newbies they should really play for a Century or so before they try making a mage char.
That ain't true... it all depends of teacher availability really.
Yeah so its one or two centuries.

The idea of giving newbies a few hints while creating the first character is not bad.
Feel free to create a few texts that include in short words what Newbies need to know at the three steps of creation of their first character.

Nitram
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Arvemor
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Post by Arvemor »

What about making it easier to become a mage? I know practically jack-all about it...but that's the thing. I believe there is a teaching room, where you use a special rune to teach someone another rune, right? (This is me guessing here, I don't know for sure.)

I'm sure it's been proposed, but I believe it's worth bringing up. Perhaps there should be more rooms? Or eliminate the need for the room altogether? Just to make it easier for all these people to become mages. Right now, the academy has their little "secret circle" where they can choose whether some poor character joins or gets passed off on a whim.

This isn't probably going to be popular (because half the mages are probably dm's or coders or whatever), but take the power away from these people. Make it rp if you like. Give the temple a teaching room! Have a magic war.

And if I'm mistaken on how magic etc works please forgive me, this is just from my current perspective.
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Post by 1d20 »

You are completely mistaken in almost every sentence you wrote and just made a fool outta yourself buddy.
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Post by Llama »

Arvemor wrote:What about making it easier to become a mage? I know practically jack-all about it...but that's the thing. I believe there is a teaching room, where you use a special rune to teach someone another rune, right? (This is me guessing here, I don't know for sure.)
There are two teaching rooms far as I know - and you use a special rune to teach someone another rune (which you have) and which depends on whether you have enough skill to teach it, and your target to learn it.
I'm sure it's been proposed, but I believe it's worth bringing up. Perhaps there should be more rooms? Or eliminate the need for the room altogether? Just to make it easier for all these people to become mages. Right now, the academy has their little "secret circle" where they can choose whether some poor character joins or gets passed off on a whim.
Nope, the problem isn't the rooms - the problem is that active mages are few - mages who can teach all the runes are few, and mages who actually want to teach are few - and you can only teach 3 characters max.

Work out the Intersection of those sets and you arrive at a number you can count with a single hand.
This isn't probably going to be popular (because half the mages are probably dm's or coders or whatever), but take the power away from these people. Make it rp if you like. Give the temple a teaching room! Have a magic war.
Far as I know, only 2 mages are played by 'coders' (one of which is inactive) , and GMs don't need to 'play mages', because if they want a mage character they can max it out using GM commands. Also coders are people just like me and you, who try to help the game. They get no special bonuses or treatment.
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Tanistian_Kanea
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Post by Tanistian_Kanea »

MoonDust wrote:You are completely mistaken in almost every sentence you wrote and just made a fool outta yourself buddy.
actually he didn't. he is mostly correct, and has suggested something most people already on to one degree or another.

in a previous thread it was agreed a nuetral teaching room could not make things worse, and thus in an attempt to balance the current situation one was going to be implemented in the next server update (don't quote me on that but i am 90% sure).

it is almost uncontested that the people in charge should not be in charge and that at least some of this power needs to be taken away (what the nuetral room would do) and finally a system was discussed that would remove player to player teaching entirely.

so before you go insulting someone saying they made a fool out of themselves you best check you are not the one being the fool.

edit: @hadrian. the rooms are a problem as i am aware of at least to mages that would teach, where it not required to be in a room.
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Alexander Knight
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Post by Alexander Knight »

~Deleted~
Last edited by Alexander Knight on Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Alexander Knight »

Alexander Knight wrote:
Arvemor wrote:What about making it easier to become a mage? I know practically jack-all about it...but that's the thing. I believe there is a teaching room, where you use a special rune to teach someone another rune, right? (This is me guessing here, I don't know for sure.)

I'm sure it's been proposed, but I believe it's worth bringing up. Perhaps there should be more rooms? Or eliminate the need for the room altogether? Just to make it easier for all these people to become mages. Right now, the academy has their little "secret circle" where they can choose whether some poor character joins or gets passed off on a whim.

This isn't probably going to be popular (because half the mages are probably dm's or coders or whatever), but take the power away from these people. Make it rp if you like. Give the temple a teaching room! Have a magic war.

And if I'm mistaken on how magic etc works please forgive me, this is just from my current perspective.
A teacher can only teach up too 3 students and if it take a while to be a teacher and a lot of students..... you might see where this is going but il say it anyway, there are not enough mages good enough to teach that have not already got pupils, and considering the teaching rune is the last rune that should be taught cos otherwise we will get everyone KEL RA DUN QWAN'ing everyone else which renders the whole magic teacher system useless
And Dm's are in d&d this is Illa so they are Gm's... and if you ask me i dont think there is anything wrong with the magic system, i mean what is more likely to happen, walking down the street and someone asks you if you wanna learn how to fight or walking down the street and someone asking you if you wanna learn how to set people on fire :) the truth is that if you want to find a magic teacher you need to do you homework and look around a LOT
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

Hadrian_Abela wrote:
Arvemor wrote:What about making it easier to become a mage? I know practically jack-all about it...but that's the thing. I believe there is a teaching room, where you use a special rune to teach someone another rune, right? (This is me guessing here, I don't know for sure.)
There are two teaching rooms far as I know - and you use a special rune to teach someone another rune (which you have) and which depends on whether you have enough skill to teach it, and your target to learn it.
I'm sure it's been proposed, but I believe it's worth bringing up. Perhaps there should be more rooms? Or eliminate the need for the room altogether? Just to make it easier for all these people to become mages. Right now, the academy has their little "secret circle" where they can choose whether some poor character joins or gets passed off on a whim.
Nope, the problem isn't the rooms - the problem is that active mages are few - mages who can teach all the runes are few, and mages who actually want to teach are few - and you can only teach 3 characters max.

Work out the Intersection of those sets and you arrive at a number you can count with a single hand.
This isn't probably going to be popular (because half the mages are probably dm's or coders or whatever), but take the power away from these people. Make it rp if you like. Give the temple a teaching room! Have a magic war.
Far as I know, only 2 mages are played by 'coders' (one of which is inactive) , and GMs don't need to 'play mages', because if they want a mage character they can max it out using GM commands. Also coders are people just like me and you, who try to help the game. They get no special bonuses or treatment.
The teaching rooms have always been a problem, getting rid of the need for them would be lovely.

There are more people capable of teaching, there are just two problems to the teaching method. The skill reduction being the first (without a teaching room you will lose skill) and the high requirement for a mage to be able to teach every rune.

What would be nice would be to get rid of the teaching rooms entirely.

I would propose we put in a secondary skill for teaching. think of it like a fast rising magical verison of "tactics" except that the only real use for the skill would be to teach. The skill (like tactics) would raise no matter what actions in magic system you were doing, this way it would eliminate the need to practice one type of magic continuously just to teach a rune.

You would need different amounts of this skill to teach different runes, based upon the nonsensical level system of runes if it must be. and the skill could rise and fall as it does now, which would keep a person from teaching 10 runes a day and whatnot?

This way mage's don't have to make themselves useless if they want to teach, and we wouldn't really have a need for the teaching room handicap.

OR we can just get free teaching ^^
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Tanistian_Kanea
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Post by Tanistian_Kanea »

this topic is going down a slippery slope. i think everything that needs to be said is in these threads. Please read them before making additional posts.

Is the magic system broken:
http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... sc&start=0
Magic System Proposal:
http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... sc&start=0
Magic Idea #1
http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... sc&start=0
Natural Teaching room: (where it states it is being worked on)
http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=31753
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Post by 1d20 »

Tanistian_Kanea wrote:
MoonDust wrote:You are completely mistaken in almost every sentence you wrote and just made a fool outta yourself buddy.
actually he didn't. he is mostly correct, and has suggested something most people already on to one degree or another.

in a previous thread it was agreed a nuetral teaching room could not make things worse, and thus in an attempt to balance the current situation one was going to be implemented in the next server update (don't quote me on that but i am 90% sure).

it is almost uncontested that the people in charge should not be in charge and that at least some of this power needs to be taken away (what the nuetral room would do) and finally a system was discussed that would remove player to player teaching entirely.

so before you go insulting someone saying they made a fool out of themselves you best check you are not the one being the fool.

edit: @hadrian. the rooms are a problem as i am aware of at least to mages that would teach, where it not required to be in a room.
No, I'm not the one being the fool, fool.

The academy doesn't have their "little circle" of people, the academy doesn't choose who becomes a mage or doesn't. Half the mages aren't GMs, nor staff members nor anything.

Have you ever even been a mage?
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Post by Arvemor »

It appears to be more a division of opinion than anything. As for the insults, keep them to a minimum...all of you. I had already said I wasn't sure what I was talking about.But have you seen the Academy's application board? There's so many listings up there! What I'm saying is...people want to be mages. With the system the way it is, we're leaving a lot of people unhappy.

Commence Anecdote:
I usually play as an orc character. Because combat can be kinda dull, I use emotes and the "push" action to make it interesting.
e.g."#me parries a quick blow to the side, then headbuts "foe", knocking him backward." Then I'd push them.
Someone brought to my attention they didn't like me dictating what there character is doing. Which is fair, really. I understand that. If you want your char. to be unflinching and strong in the face of pain than let him. If you want your character to cringe and cry and grovel, because he is too weak to do anything else, then he should...
But people do not want to play "aspiring mages." People want to be "grand, magestic warlocks and wizards." Roleplaying is about playing a role. By not letting people be their roles, you're trumping the actual role-playing. Just like me making people go backwards then, the current rules of the game are forcing players to be characters they do not wish to be.
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Post by Tanistian_Kanea »

MoonDust wrote:
Tanistian_Kanea wrote:
MoonDust wrote:You are completely mistaken in almost every sentence you wrote and just made a fool outta yourself buddy.
actually he didn't. he is mostly correct, and has suggested something most people already on to one degree or another.

in a previous thread it was agreed a nuetral teaching room could not make things worse, and thus in an attempt to balance the current situation one was going to be implemented in the next server update (don't quote me on that but i am 90% sure).

it is almost uncontested that the people in charge should not be in charge and that at least some of this power needs to be taken away (what the nuetral room would do) and finally a system was discussed that would remove player to player teaching entirely.

so before you go insulting someone saying they made a fool out of themselves you best check you are not the one being the fool.

edit: @hadrian. the rooms are a problem as i am aware of at least to mages that would teach, where it not required to be in a room.
No, I'm not the one being the fool, fool.

The academy doesn't have their "little circle" of people, the academy doesn't choose who becomes a mage or doesn't. Half the mages aren't GMs, nor staff members nor anything.

Have you ever even been a mage?
@Moon: You seriously need to learn respect and courtesy both IG and out. I clearly stated he was MOSTLY correct, and for someone who was unsure of what he was talking about he did a very good job. I have a good understanding of the magic system and community, however I am able to look at the greater picture. Your last posts have not been helpful in anyway, as you have basically just insulted and mocked people. Now, If you don't have anything of value to add please just be quiet.

As for the above post. Many of the Applications are old, Be sure to check the time date. Many of these people are also ones that give up quickly because they do not get a response. As I have said before the magic system problem has been brought up with several solutions.

As for forcing people to play "Aspiring Mages", it is the same as a fighter in training or crafter in training. The only difference is how long the game has them at stage one. People don't (or at least shouldn't) play great bakers unless they have good baking ability. Magic is no different.

Unfortunately there is likely always going to be problems with the magic system. For now, changes are going to be made in the hopefully near future would should help alleviate the problem.
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Alli Zelos
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Post by Alli Zelos »

Arvemor wrote:It appears to be more a division of opinion than anything. As for the insults, keep them to a minimum...all of you. I had already said I wasn't sure what I was talking about.But have you seen the Academy's application board? There's so many listings up there! What I'm saying is...people want to be mages. With the system the way it is, we're leaving a lot of people unhappy.


If every newbie become a mage, we'd have a lot of people running around destroying things :P Magic is powerful in Illarion, so it really should be kept to those that teachers know won't go on a pking spree, or end up quitting the game.
Arvemor wrote:Commence Anecdote:
I usually play as an orc character. Because combat can be kinda dull, I use emotes and the "push" action to make it interesting.
e.g."#me parries a quick blow to the side, then headbuts "foe", knocking him backward." Then I'd push them.
Someone brought to my attention they didn't like me dictating what there character is doing. Which is fair, really. I understand that. If you want your char. to be unflinching and strong in the face of pain than let him. If you want your character to cringe and cry and grovel, because he is too weak to do anything else, then he should...
But people do not want to play "aspiring mages." People want to be "grand, magestic warlocks and wizards." Roleplaying is about playing a role. By not letting people be their roles, you're trumping the actual role-playing. Just like me making people go backwards then, the current rules of the game are forcing players to be characters they do not wish to be.


The headbutting part could be considered forced RP, to some. Yes, it's realistic, but you're also assuming that the foe wasn't wearing a metal helmet that would protect them, or dodged the blow, or raised their sword infront of your head to use the headbutt against you. Basically, you're not giving the other person a chance to respond to your RP.

As to the "forcing the players to be characters they do not wish to be" - if everyone could be exactly what they wanted, Illarion would be full of demi-gods. Although it is a fantasy, you cannot have everything you want just by typing #me. Like Tanistian said, you have to work for your title, and your skills.
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Post by 1d20 »

Tanistian_Kanea wrote:
MoonDust wrote:
Tanistian_Kanea wrote: actually he didn't. he is mostly correct, and has suggested something most people already on to one degree or another.

in a previous thread it was agreed a nuetral teaching room could not make things worse, and thus in an attempt to balance the current situation one was going to be implemented in the next server update (don't quote me on that but i am 90% sure).

it is almost uncontested that the people in charge should not be in charge and that at least some of this power needs to be taken away (what the nuetral room would do) and finally a system was discussed that would remove player to player teaching entirely.

so before you go insulting someone saying they made a fool out of themselves you best check you are not the one being the fool.

edit: @hadrian. the rooms are a problem as i am aware of at least to mages that would teach, where it not required to be in a room.
No, I'm not the one being the fool, fool.

The academy doesn't have their "little circle" of people, the academy doesn't choose who becomes a mage or doesn't. Half the mages aren't GMs, nor staff members nor anything.

Have you ever even been a mage?
@Moon: You seriously need to learn respect and courtesy both IG and out. I clearly stated he was MOSTLY correct, and for someone who was unsure of what he was talking about he did a very good job. I have a good understanding of the magic system and community, however I am able to look at the greater picture. Your last posts have not been helpful in anyway, as you have basically just insulted and mocked people. Now, If you don't have anything of value to add please just be quiet.

As for the above post. Many of the Applications are old, Be sure to check the time date. Many of these people are also ones that give up quickly because they do not get a response. As I have said before the magic system problem has been brought up with several solutions.

As for forcing people to play "Aspiring Mages", it is the same as a fighter in training or crafter in training. The only difference is how long the game has them at stage one. People don't (or at least shouldn't) play great bakers unless they have good baking ability. Magic is no different.

Unfortunately there is likely always going to be problems with the magic system. For now, changes are going to be made in the hopefully near future would should help alleviate the problem.
I'm courteous with pretty much everyone OOC excelt haughty people (e.g; you). As for IG, that's pretty much none of your business how I play my character. And I clearly stated he was MOSTLY incorrect, too. And for someone who wasn't sure he did a very good job at pissing off people who invest time trying to make the magic system better.
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Alexander Knight
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Post by Alexander Knight »

Come on ladies, handbags away please
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Athian
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Post by Athian »

This is a proposals board, Stop these arguments over nothing. If you have a proposal then this is certainly the place to put it. I don't want to watch another flame battle over the teaching system emerge. We've still got plenty of topics for that, we don't need anymore.
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Arvemor
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Post by Arvemor »

Well, I am truely sorry if I've upset or insulted anybody. I was really putting down an opinion rather than anything else...
-Something new to me- I didn't realise magic was actually very powerful. I was under the impression it would take a LOT of training in it to be able to take down...say, a troll. But it sounds different?
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Post by Aldan Vian »

A troll is simple to most mages...if I remember right..its been awhile since I was a mage...
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Post by Rhianna Morgan »

I was also under the impression that mages are overpowered ig. Yes, yes, no flaming at me, as soon as you get to them you can beat them dead easily. BUT you need to get there without being burnt, frozen, shut out by stone walls... send away by a portal... stuff like that.

I also think there are quite enough mages. Whenever there is some quest going on you have between one and five mages stepping around. I know, there are far more fighters there. But really, magic was supposed to be special, was it not? Something normal people would not have soo easily.

I think in Gobaith, there is a quite high mage population as it is, comparing it to the mainland would be nonesense as there are far too few farmers and craftsmen, and far too many fighters ^^.
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Post by Morbius »

Ok, i have to opinions here.

number one

The possible reason the mage population is so high, could it not be because poeple who become mages tend to hang onto that charecter since it was so dam hard to find i teacher and all that?

number two

Gms can make an awsome charecter in a second with their Gm privliges cant they? they just type in a few words an poof the perfect mage is here! and its there job to watch over illarion isnt it? sooo....why dont some of the Gms just make some mage teachers? and stop all the people winging about the lack of player willing to teach? just think about it, and i dont want to be bitched at beacause i wrote all this off the top of my head.
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Post by Pellandria »

Ughh here we go again all the figthers complaining how powerfull mages are *sighs* even as I might repeat myself again and again just let me say one thing, a powerfull mage is work for several years, a powerfull warrior is work for one or two months, Matt has prooven that you can powergame a warrior char in a month to almost highest skills, if you know how, in 1 Month a mage char hasn't even got a teacher, but if he would have and he is lucky he has 6 runes...and can't even kill a rabbit with a full mana bar.

Not to add that one icebird amulett or a wand or a master mage robe is allready more expensiv than a complett figtherarmor with swords and everything, furthermore as it was mentioned several times that a mage is useless against more than one enemy, unless he had time to prepare, or as soon as a figther stands close to him, even a newbie figther could kill a mage if he stands to close, on the other side we got this terrible powergamed mages who got parry and what not in yellow...that I personally find highly annoying aswell as mages who got high magic resistance, but we will see what the new figthing system brings.
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Post by Morbius »

My god, if it upsets you that much, why dont you just avoid the forums??
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Post by Llama »

Morbius wrote:My god, if it upsets you that much, why dont you just avoid the forums??
Its called territorial protection ;)
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Post by nmaguire »

Pellandria wrote:Ughh here we go again all the figthers complaining how powerfull mages are *sighs* even as I might repeat myself again and again just let me say one thing, a powerfull mage is work for several years, a powerfull warrior is work for one or two months, Matt has prooven that you can powergame a warrior char in a month to almost highest skills, if you know how, in 1 Month a mage char hasn't even got a teacher, but if he would have and he is lucky he has 6 runes...and can't even kill a rabbit with a full mana bar.

Not to add that one icebird amulett or a wand or a master mage robe is allready more expensiv than a complett figtherarmor with swords and everything,
Took me 3 years to finish my fighter. Name someone that can beat me.

Strong mages have an advantage :) As I explained in another thread somewhere.
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Post by AlexRose »

You've just proved the point, Nathan. A master fighter is more than a match for a master mage. A fighter who's been ig a month or two like this guy's can't expect to beat mages considering the bulk of them have been ig for years.
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Post by Mr. Cromwell »

AlexRose wrote:You've just proved the point, Nathan. A master fighter is more than a match for a master mage. A fighter who's been ig a month or two like this guy's can't expect to beat mages considering the bulk of them have been ig for years.
That's not so simple, though. As Po-Pellandria surprisingly (altough I presume inadvertently) begun to point out in a part of his rant, it's actually far easier and more beneficial for a mage to gain proficiency in fighting (and thus gain a degree of melee protection) than it is for a fighter to even gain basic defence against magic. Before Po-Athian jumps here to point out that warriors need simply to put in more to willpower; Warriors have much wider and diverse stat requirements as it is in comparison to mages (6vs3?). Hell, if the warriors start investing any more stats into willpower, soon some of the current uberfighters would be able to become battlemages.

Personally, I find it a bit silly that I can drag a dummy character with minimum physical stats and NO relevant combat skills, in cloth, to fight a troll warrior and achieve a 20% block & dodge rate and endure some 20 attacks. Whereas Crommy is fighting for his life every time a Troll shaman spawns next to him, even though his combined magic stats are probably at par with the combined physical stats of the dummy char.
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