The Question of Troll's Bane

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Post by Athian » Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:45 am

I think the idea of a foreign body taking over any part of the isle always spooks players. In the IG sense if really doens't matter who the land "Belonged" too. as far as the current livers are concerned it's their land now and they will fight to keep it. Resistance would be expected in a character sense. Telling player not to resist in the OOC or that "Resistance is futile" is what got everyone all up in arms I'd imagine

What Cromy did was basically set up a governing body where any idiot can take power so long as the idiots around them don't care enough to stop them. None of the nobles are really noble at all. They have had no real wealth, power or backing to do any of the things they were allowed to begin with. Players were simply complacent to let whatever these 'nobles' did slide unless it affected them personally

So Whats the difference here between that and a GM run city? So long as the GM's aren't going to impede peoples lives who really gives a damn who runs the town. At least this time there won't be corrupt officals collecting tax money to build an evil organization, while the entire population watches them do it.

Sadly, the only real reason the GM's need to use an overwhelming force like a prince is because all the idiots of Trollsbane simply go with the "Cromwell says" method of elcetions. Seriously..why has no one killed this guy...hes not even powerful..hes nobody (though stellar job of taking over everyone) Buncha loser Trollsbane Sheep :P :wink:

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Post by Mesha » Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:53 am

I think the idea of a foreign body taking over any part of the isle always spooks players. In the IG sense if really doens't matter who the land "Belonged" too. as far as the current livers are concerned it's their land now and they will fight to keep it. Resistance would be expected in a character sense. Telling player not to resist in the OOC or that "Resistance is futile" is what got everyone all up in arms I'd imagine
You are actually free to resist. Perhaps that part went wrong in the communication. It's just that the prince himself would rather not use violence. Fight like you never fought before I guess!

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Post by Juliana D'cheyne » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:43 am

I'm curious what you mean by this. Didn't the rulers of TB from the past closely monitor their own rules either? Or do you mean unfair monitoring? Because that is not our intent. Even though we are technically gods ingame, we cannot allow ourselves to abuse that power when we are ruling a town.
I should have added closely monitored by a GM if not one that ran the town i.e. the players have no say in how the town is run.



I look at past examples and am not fond of the idea of GM's running TB, not only past examples in the other game, but past examples in areas like the Academy which was basically set up with assistance of a Dev/GM as it runs now. I think no matter how much you as prince listen to the players.. you are ultimately a GM as far as decision making which leaves very little choice to players.... (even if a "foreign broad" hangs around. ) Your char playing NOT as a GM but simply a player is IMO an entirely different story. Your char would have no more say then any other char ig. *is not sure am making herself clear*
You are actually free to resist. Perhaps that part went wrong in the communication. It's just that the prince himself would rather not use violence. Fight like you never fought before I guess!
Are we really though? Except for in a quest for fun, NO ONE that wants to continue playing Illarion would seriously resist a GM making a decision such as "running Trolls Bane" *shrugs*
Some players have characters with Gamemaster (GM) status. Their task is to keep order within the game. They can punish misbehavior to enforce these rules or notify administrators in order to conduct the punishment.
In other words this sounds like more then a quest, this sounds like the actions of GM's planning on at least a trial period running Trolls Bane... sorry, but except for possibly a token yell for quest purposes it doesn't seem like it is something that should be resisted and follow the rules of the game.

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Post by Mesha » Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:14 am

Okay. So you'd rather have GMs take a step back all together and just watch over the game (as Seers)?

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Post by Llama » Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:25 am

I don't see what all the fuss and complaining is about.

How many actually care properly about IG politics?

Does it really make a difference whether you're ruled by Fooser,Joxia, Cromwell, Taliss - in a democracy, Archduchy, Noideawhatelse ?

I don't see what the problem is now. This isn't going to turn into dictator-land which 'oppresses your roleplay'.

GM run town would work better than a player run town I would think. I don't see what all the fuss is about at all. Nobody's oppressing anyone's roleplay. Yes, Salkmaer decided they wanted to come over and take over TB. What's the problem?

Does anyone else want to play illarion as a single-player game where Trollsbane is the most powerful town in the known world?

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Post by Jason Felarion » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:13 am

Che, it's time for another revolution.

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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:21 am

I find the possibility of losing a quest to be very refreshing. Maybe this time everyone will take the quest seriously instead of the usual "loelz a demon, does it bite?" stuff. We have two weeks!! Quickly, everyone PM Matt for PG tips!

;)

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Post by Llama » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:40 am

Mr. Cromwell wrote:Quickly, everyone PM Matt for PG tips!
Here's some good PG-tips

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Post by LifeWonder » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:49 am

I'm pretty sure no one minds if you guys (GMs) attack town to try and take over it.

It's just that you made it seem like resistance really is futile and however hard we try, we'd have no chance whatsoever to repel the invaders..

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Post by Mesha » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:53 am

Where did we made it seem as if resistance is futile? As I said, miscommunication happens. You have a chance, it just isn't as huge (AKA, 100 procent chance of success) as it always is.

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Post by Piotnik » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:55 am

Hadrian_Abela wrote:I don't see what all the fuss and complaining is about.

How many actually care properly about IG politics?

Does it really make a difference whether you're ruled by Fooser,Joxia, Cromwell, Taliss - in a democracy, Archduchy, Noideawhatelse ?

I don't see what the problem is now. This isn't going to turn into dictator-land which 'oppresses your roleplay'.

GM run town would work better than a player run town I would think. I don't see what all the fuss is about at all. Nobody's oppressing anyone's roleplay. Yes, Salkmaer decided they wanted to come over and take over TB. What's the problem?

Does anyone else want to play illarion as a single-player game where Trollsbane is the most powerful town in the known world?
I agree with the lama.

In my opinion TB is - at the moment - more an dark, anarchical, chaotic settlement, which is cooped in a curtain wall. Its only clear advantage is the central location in Gobaith.
Why should it not be the (temporarily and partly) gm-controlled metropolis (not the capital!) of the island?
In this capacity it's very attractive to any greedy-for-power king or prince or other invader, of course.
But I think that's just consequential.
And provides many opportunities for exciting and interesting RPs and quests.
Last edited by Piotnik on Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Llama » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:55 am

Just an out of curiosity question, I'm trying to understand you :P

If there was a character who was voted in as leader through democracy - and turned out to be a GM - would there be all this complaining?

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Post by Juliana D'cheyne » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:04 pm

Mesha wrote:Okay. So you'd rather have GMs take a step back all together and just watch over the game (as Seers)?
As Seers and Questors yes. My personal preference which I realize may not be everyone's. I have no problem RPing (and in fact enjoy it a lot since all gm's are great RPers) if I happen to know a personal char, which btw I try NOT to know. In that instance I feel my char would have equal say in the RP/decision-making etc. In a quest situation I have NO problem following the GM's lead as far as the RP and the plans for a quest. A GM taking over TB is similar to a permanent quest. The GM would always have the lead.
Just an out of curiosity question, I'm trying to understand you

If there was a character who was voted in as leader through democracy - and turned out to be a GM - would there be all this complaining?
As a private char of a GM it wouldn't bother me in the least. The char would be RPing as any other player ig. In the official capacity of a GM however, yes. You mean you can't see the difference?? (I am not sure who you asked that question of but answered anyway)

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Post by Mesha » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:14 pm

As Seers and Questors yes. My personal preference which I realize may not be everyone's. I have no problem RPing (and in fact enjoy it a lot since all gm's are great RPers) if I happen to know a personal char, which btw I try NOT to know. In that instance I feel my char would have equal say in the RP/decision-making etc. In a quest situation I have NO problem following the GM's lead as far as the RP and the plans for a quest. A GM taking over TB is similar to a permanent quest. The GM would always have the lead.
That's the point I'm trying to get across. Quest-chars, at least the way I play them, always try to leave equal say to the players in the RP, as that is what the game is based upon. We as a team just bring elements into the game, to make the game less static (where there's only political struggle ever so often). But you can react to these elements the way you like. You can resist the prince, even to the end. I will even help you set up a rebel camp somewhere in the wilderness (As long as you bring me some wooden boards to build with!), if that is what you are planning with your rebel force.

But let us know! PM Alsaya, PM me, PM any GM you like to ask questions about these sort of things. What options there are. Thanks for voicing your concerns Juliana.

To the people who cannot get over the losing part: As I pointed out above, nothing is solid. Players have a say in the flow of the game, through their RP. Band together, avoid the Prince for a while, or go for a full out attack. Lay your defenses, plan your alliances, whatever you can think of! Nothing is set in stone.

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Post by Damien » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:17 pm

Actually you can even put a finger on a wound spot in Troll's Bane's recent history that would indeed call for Salkamaerians to develop a prominent interest in taking over the town.
On the island, there has been an active and recently even open moshran cultist temple. The "Moshran" concept though is an "evil" concept and intentionally it was thought for NPC use only, not for the inconsequent-wannabe-evil-nice-person-from-the-neighbourhood-villain player-guild type cultist we have now (who don't "even" have regular human sacrifices :p). On the continent, cultists are insanely evil and cause bloodshed and slaughter of innocents, and therefore every organized government - even albarians - have a reason to strike down every cultist gathering they can hear of, even if they have to travel half the world over that.
Same counts for the lizardfolk people.

Shortly said, from this happening it is in fact a very logical conclusion to have Salkamar send some legionnaires or even paladins or even a knight accompanied by those to the island to take things over and execute every cultist and every root of such a cult, or even burninate down the whole island with that action.

The positive effect of a permanent overtaking is that Troll's bane, which is the town that contains all free ressources and NPCs, stays free and unlocked for every player including newbies, for whom it is kinda depressing if they just wander through the town and get ghosted by an orc who wants to raid them or if they want to use some tool and then get gtold to get lost and buy an own tool by some players who consider themselves town guards. Stuff like that for example did cause some, and not too few, new players to leave out of frustration.

So what the staff has decided here is
1. a benefit for the whole community and especially for newbies, even if single players might oppose the decision because of personal reasons
2. the kinda only logical answer to troll's banes recent history, if you take a peek at the world background.

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Post by Alexander Knight » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:22 pm

Are they going to be Superskilled?

Hey, Replying to the whole gm's taking over Trolls bain.. Well Me and two friends (wild wuelfgar, Don andrews and me alexander knight) managed to kill one of them when they came to tell people they were "taking over" so i dont think it will be easy but it will be possible :)

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Post by Olaf Tingvatn » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:33 pm

the players are too used to allways winning..a lose quest, as it is called, would be a good thing..all in all i have a gutting feeling the players who dont want this to happen will female dog and moan untill they get their will..and i havent seen any governing body in trollsbane, except for on the forums, since joxia ran for office. or was that 'after' cromwell? dont remember.. and yes this would possibly lead to more newbies staying instead of leaving after getting clouded and robbed by a raiding orc. im still all for it.

im just glad im not in the GM's shoes on this one.

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Post by Taliss Kazzxs » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:40 pm

Bring it.

Rye

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Post by Rye » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:57 pm

I hope only that the new ruler brings some order to this chaos. A benevolent dictatorship is the only way the game can be run and have it equally fun and fair for all players. Allowing a clique to have power on Golbaith is not working. The powers that will rule will do so with the enjoyment of the players in mind. I'm certain that some player autonomy will remain in the form of Militias or Vanguards or something. The ability of a player run government to react to GM created situations is problematic at best. With this new system will come new possibilities.
As it is now the average player is like a leaf floating upon a river. You end up going where the current takes you. I may have met the fellow carrying the parchment when he came to Bane. He asked me to direct him to the leadership of Bane. I told him point blank I'd never met them.(I haven't). He then asked me to direct him to a town guard. I told him "Good Luck! Since there was no trouble in town at that moment he had a better chance of finding one. Had there been a problem he couldn't find one if they had purple armor and torches attached to their heads. We had a very polite IC exchange and he went off with his letter. I'm sure he took an idea of how chaotic things are with him! How can the place be run by people who are actually there a tiny percentage of the time? I say let someone who actually has power to make things happen run the Government. I, personally, will welcome the new leadership.

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Post by Alexander Knight » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:06 pm

Hadrian_Abela wrote:
Mr. Cromwell wrote:Quickly, everyone PM Matt for PG tips!
Here's some good PG-tips
Sorry but aint PG-Tips a tea bag :?

What i dont understand is wht the gm's cant just make another town?
then whoever wants to go there can.. yeh perhaps it will cast a shodow over trolls bain and become the richest in the land.. but then you could have all out war :) like castle storming and sieges

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Post by Taliss Kazzxs » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:23 pm

In all honesty I find the timing of this decision quite rude and frankly insulting. After the introduction of the Nobility System the town had a good run. Then it went through a time of inactivity, following was time ruled by cultists then again a time of inactivity. Finally, and for the first time in who knows how long. Trollsbane is being lead by a chaotic good leader that is very active. The only limitations to what I have accomplished in the last couple weeks are the privileges I seem to be denied as a leader such as building, even access to the tax collector.

In the last few weeks I have found the attitude of the staff towards leaders( or at least towards myself) to consider me a pest or nuisance , with short comments and snappy remarks. A far cry from feeling like an appreciated long time player that offers to invest countless hours for the benefit of others.

Where I felt as though I should have been given acknowledgment or at least an opportunity, I feel as though I am just getting pissed on....thoroughly.

I suppose there is little need for mentioning more on the subject, the staff has made up their mind and they are not known for going back on their decisions.

We will have a nice little brawl, they will more than likely win.

It will be interesting regardless.

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Post by Karl » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:18 pm

Even though Blake isn't particularly fond of the Nobility system and Taliss being leader of the town, I OOCly feel that he won it fair and square, I don't see why the staff aren't being cooperative with a players taken decision. *shrug*
Taliss Kazzxs wrote:they will more than likely win.
I really don't think so. :P

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Post by Retlak » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:40 pm

I have a message for the GM team;

Next time you you make an idea on the internal boards to improve the game, just do it without discussion.

The people who will quit over such a matter are only bad players for deciding to leave anyway.

-Matt

Developer
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Post by Nitram » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:51 pm

There is no discussion, Matt. Just some people keep on talking and think they change anything with it. :wink: As always.

And Blake: You don't think the GMs will win? :lol: I can cloud any player character in less then a second. And you? :P

Nitram

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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:54 pm

Nitram wrote:There is no discussion, Matt. Just some people keep on talking and think they change anything with it. :wink: As always.

And Blake: You don't think the GMs will win? :lol: I can cloud any player character in less then a second. And you? :P

Nitram
He has your coordinates, you filthy saxon. :P

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Post by Jason Felarion » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:56 pm

Nitram wrote:There is no discussion, Matt. Just some people keep on talking and think they change anything with it. :wink: As always.

And Blake: You don't think the GMs will win? :lol: I can cloud any player character in less then a second. And you? :P

Nitram
powned by the Nitramianianijamiamnism. Pay the tax.

I'm looking forward to the quest. If we have no chance, why the staff would make a quest, not only an overnight rush and pin it in the forum. Take it serious, do whatever you need to do if danger or uncertainy would come. I remember the 'you see a big ship by the coast of Greenbriar' thing by Aegohl (?), if I'm not wrong. Was the same, big trouble, then diplomatic and things solved without big harming.

Recieve them diplomatically and if they will not argue the right way, if they dont have an open ear for your words, then feel free to slash. Its the normal way. Remember its Bane, not Nordmark!

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Post by Karl » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:35 pm

Nitram wrote:And Blake: You don't think the GMs will win? :lol: I can cloud any player character in less then a second. And you? :P
No, but I expect GMs to act as mature, fair and reasonable individuals who don't aim to win but aim to enhance roleplay. :)

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Post by Thrym » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:42 pm

Thanks for shedding more light upon all of this, Mesha. Your posts have been helpful and informative. :)

I am not totally against an invasion, as it could be fun. There are lots of RP opportunities in a losing/rebel situation. I initially had the idea that GMs would storm the town if they resisted, defeat the defenders without any other possible outcome, and force things to just go an entirely new way without expecting any further IG resistance. Finis. Apparently this is not the intention, and I rather look forward to all the possibilities (especially in the negotiating rounds).

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Post by Tanistian_Kanea » Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:05 pm

Juliana D'cheyne wrote:
But of course, if any of you has an example game where this is the case, be my guest and point it out for me. It would not hurt to check.


Most towns were either GM, dev, or owner run. If not any of those....the rules, guidelines, actions of town leaders were closely monitored ig and ooc. Neat and orderly if that is what people want. Did it discourage independence of thought and RP in the creation and continuation of a town? My chars moved from one town to the other simply for the house style, basically all were about the same with slight variation for RP purposes only. None of my chars knew anything political going on in any town.

There was no public discussion of changes, new rules were simply posted as far as I know. My char had the first "allowed" shady guild of mercenaries/thieves/robbers/kidnappers. Before ANY "job" could be done or attempted my guild HAD to get permission from the town leader and any PO's involved oocly. Most of the time it was practically impossible to get the approval of town leaders even if the PO's seemed willing.
And yes, a GM closely monitored the guild also.
first, what towns are currently gm or dev run. i am not sure what you mean by owner ran but would like your definition and what towns. actions of the town leader should be closely monitored IG. to much **** takes place OOC (including this thread). Any towns ruled by a GM or Dev character that the gained by means of any other player is completely legit, or are you saying that GM's and devs cannot play this game and if they do they are limited to what they can do?

As for the shady guild stuff. I 1. realise why it is monitored. and 2. think that to many restrictions are put on these characters. 3. noone can play a thief without a thief system because I am probably one of few PO's who would actually let my characters be stolen from. Especially if my character was unobservant. As for holding someone by knife point, come on guys... if someone has knife to your back from behind, you would have to be superhuman to stop him slicing your throat before you disarmed him, and this goes to old players as much as the new if not more.

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Post by Olive » Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:46 pm

last time trollsbane was invaded the town was evacuated and relocated. we've been through this before with the demon lord. From what i understand the staff were annoyed by the relocation and implemented a dirty fix to finish the quest as the players took an option that was not expected or approved by them.

should be interesting to see what the players do this time as goldburg isn't really available anymore.

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