The Question of Troll's Bane

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Post by Vern Kron » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:23 pm

The Question of Troll's Bane

The Question of Troll’s Bane.

Apparently a group of people want to take over Troll’s Bane, and the surrounding area. Now, why would gm’s want to do that? When already we are lacking response time in problems, have trouble teaching newbies, can’t manage to keep towns as towns and farms as farms, they now want to take over the politics of the game, basically the only real ‘rp’ part of the game available to some people, due to other characters disappearing, and we have to deal with it.

We are now approaching what appears to be a battle, IG, of what will happen. My question is, will it be truly fair? Is it going to be gm’s vs. players? Are these characters the gm’s are using going to be skilled in the normal manner that we players had to do, or will they be granted power? More so, how are we supposed to combat this? Are they even going to be played characters, are or they just going to rain down npc’s on us until we subside? And since when does Salkamar invade places? Long ago it was made clear during a war over Troll’s Bane, that neither Albar nor Salkamar were interested in Troll’s Bane. Then Albar invaded the island for artifacts. Salkamar was made aware and still did nothing. Now Salkamar wants to take power, yet we have no real way of defending ourselves as it seems more like staff members are stepping in, trying to fix something that could have been fixed by players or even simple open discussions. But no. They decide to take the island, by force, after leadership was established. Estralis said a few times that we the players make the game the way we want it. This is directly against what is being done now.

There was even a large time frame when there was a spot to do so, but nothing occurred.

For what reason?
Are we actually rp’ing at this point, or are we just preparing to have our characters slaughtered by gm’s?
This is supposedly a test. I truthfully believe gm’s should not be spending their time micromanaging each and every town. Are we the players not the ones who are supposed to be creating roleplay, and make things interesting? Aren’t we supposed to be the ones making laws in towns, and doing things otherwise?
Why now?

Personally, I think this could lead to some very interesting RP, but at this point I am having difficulties trusting the gm team on this position, simply because it looks like they are throwing their GM titles around to say ‘Hey. Here is how it is. Deal with it.’

If you are actually against a gm ruled town, then please speak up, or if you have other opinions. Please keep it polite though, and not sink into a flame war.
PO Artimer.

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Post by Karl » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:28 pm

As long as the characters invading aren't invincible and don't have super-stats and super-skills, then I don't mind really.

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Post by Azuros » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:29 pm

If this "quest" is temporary and Trollsbane will have a chance to win or retake their land if they initially lose, then I have no problem with it.

However, if this is (as I fear it is) indeed to have the staff in control of the town, then I firmly oppose this. We can't have the staff interfering with IG politics like that, it takes the fun out of the roleplay.

Could someone from the staff please let us know what the situation is? I hope they can dispel the fear that is going around.

The staff controlling town is the last thing we need.

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Post by Joxia Doral » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:36 pm

I agree. I think it is great conflict idea and could be very iuneresting. But part of the appeal for me to Illarion is that Gobaith is independant from the rule of any of the larger kingdoms and a mixture of all. I am not against the idea of Gobaith having a King over the whole of Gobaith...but they should be seperate from Alb, Gynk, or Salk in my oppinion.

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:38 pm

I have always enjoyed the player controlled aspect of the game. The politics of Trolls Bane has been frustrating to some yet entirely enjoyable to be involved in knowing the players dealt with it even if there was flaming oocly. I didn't get from the RP thread there would be GM permanent takeover of Trolls Bane.. but just got there would be a quest. Am I mistaken?
However, if this is (as I fear it is) indeed to have the staff in control of the town, then I firmly oppose this. We can't have the staff interfering with IG politics like that, it takes the fun out of the roleplay.
I agree.

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Post by Trollsbane Militia » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:45 pm

There will be no glory in your sacrifice. I will erase even the memory of Salkamar from the histories! Every piece of noble parchment shall be burned. Every Salkamarian historian, and every scribe shall have their eyes pulled out, and their tongues cut from their mouths. Why, uttering the very name of this Prince, will be punishable by death! The world will never know you existed at all!

The world will know that free men stood against a tyrant, that few stood against many, and before this battle was over, even a god-king can bleed.

But on a serious note, I thought it was just a quest...

It seems that everyone is blind to the fact that players recently have been actively trying to pull trollsbane out of chaos which has been (actually) a kind of ongoing player type quest,, I'm sure a majority of players will tell you.
Last edited by Trollsbane Militia on Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Thrym » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:47 pm

Azuros wrote: However, if this is (as I fear it is) indeed to have the staff in control of the town, then I firmly oppose this. We can't have the staff interfering with IG politics like that, it takes the fun out of the roleplay.
Agreed. My character, for one, will always be opposed to the invaders, since his current position is completely built around the player-politics that have been going on. Also, I as a player will always be opposed to GMs "invading" and taking over what was a player-based government.

And I shall second the question: Can we have an answer as to whether or not this occupation is intended to be permanent, so that our fears may either be confirmed or dispelled?
Last edited by Thrym on Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Karl » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:53 pm

This post was made 30 mins ago, how about y'all chill out for a few and let the GMs actually see the message so they can reply?

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Post by Athian » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:10 am

Try not to jump the gun before the quest even really begins ladies and gents. Maybe we should all wait to see exactly how things are going to turn out, before we start a thread on the matter.

I do understand some people are against GM controlled towns, but that might not be the intention at all with this quest. Only way to be sure is to ask the GM's in charge of the quest, possibly by PM *hint, hint, nudge*


now go my minions spam them, spam them to death! :wink:

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Post by Jason Felarion » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:16 am

MoonDust wrote:This post was made 30 mins ago, how about y'all chill out for a few and let the GMs actually see the message so they can reply?
...if they will answer. It's a quest, what's the sense of the quest, if the target isn't a secret. Only my opinion... :shock:

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Post by Llama » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:21 am

Jason Felarion wrote:
MoonDust wrote:This post was made 30 mins ago, how about y'all chill out for a few and let the GMs actually see the message so they can reply?
...if they will answer. It's a quest, what's the sense of the quest, if the target isn't a secret. Only my opinion... :shock:
Usually the sense of a quest is to provided an entertaining period of time, different from the usual life.

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Post by Alsaya » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:26 am

The gm lead Trolls Bane isn't just for quest reason but rather a permanent thing, however if we see that it makes no sense than we will let it be after some time. It is rather a test to see if it is manageable at all but this doesn't mean, that when you moan and cry about it loud enough here that we will let go of our plan. :wink:

It is rather sad to see that the characters decided to fight, since this fight isn't going to be fair. We are not going to go and waste our time pg our "invaders" until we might be able to beat you guys. Those characters will be quest chars and will have the appropriate skill to their story.

We do understand that you might be afraid that all you can do now is craft and fight and that the politics are completely in our hands, that is not our plan. Our plan is to establish a certain setting for the ruling of the town, to have a fixed point in the chaos that is Trolls Bane. I do not like to spill everything about it here and leave something for you to find out ingame, if you want. If you just want to crtl+click us, that's fine too but to not think that we will just lose and leave.

So a summary: This is no "kill the invaders"-quest, there is no shiny loot if you oppose or kill them.

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Post by Azuros » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:35 am

Alsaya wrote: It is rather sad to see that the characters decided to fight, since this fight isn't going to be fair. We are not going to go and waste our time pg our "invaders" until we might be able to beat you guys. Those characters will be quest chars and will have the appropriate skill to their story.
What's to be expected, really? For the leaders of Trollsbane to just say "Oh hi, here's the keys to the town, have fun!"?
Give us some credit, we're not going to break from our roles just the GMs can experiment with IG matters.

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Post by Vern Kron » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:40 am

So you are asking us to just stop our characters, give up the things our characters worked for, and just take it and die?
After the island defeated the Albarian Army?
And held out against Demons?
And fought liches?
The island loses to Salkamarians who are supposed to be the most 'noble' of the groups and would probably think taking land like this is totally disgusting?

If so, alright then. Understood. But then there is no point in really fighting, even though we should. And after that, I guess we all just move to another town since we are going to become criminals due to resisting the new reigning power. You had a large amount of time to take over, during the chaos. Now we have order, and you step in, shake the system -again-, and we are expected to deal with it.

Got it, thanks.

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Post by Kugar » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:50 am

Alsaya wrote:The gm lead Trolls Bane isn't just for quest reason but rather a permanent thing, however if we see that it makes no sense than we will let it be after some time. It is rather a test to see if it is manageable at all but this doesn't mean, that when you moan and cry about it loud enough here that we will let go of our plan. :wink:

It is rather sad to see that the characters decided to fight, since this fight isn't going to be fair. We are not going to go and waste our time pg our "invaders" until we might be able to beat you guys. Those characters will be quest chars and will have the appropriate skill to their story.

We do understand that you might be afraid that all you can do now is craft and fight and that the politics are completely in our hands, that is not our plan. Our plan is to establish a certain setting for the ruling of the town, to have a fixed point in the chaos that is Trolls Bane. I do not like to spill everything about it here and leave something for you to find out ingame, if you want. If you just want to crtl+click us, that's fine too but to not think that we will just lose and leave.

So a summary: This is no "kill the invaders"-quest, there is no shiny loot if you oppose or kill them.
Well, all I can say is don't be surprised when no chars succumb to this rule, and there is no town to rule. And ofcourse, the many raids that the town will come under.
Last edited by Kugar on Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Thrym » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:51 am

Vern Kron wrote: And after that, I guess we all just move to another town since we are going to become criminals due to resisting the new reigning power.
That's what I was planning on doing. Why not all the characters abandon TB? I mean, if we're going to RP our characters like we would really act in that kind of situation, we would fight the losing battle with everything we have, retreat to other locations and proceed to raid and destroy everything Salkamarian we can get our hands on until either:

1) We get it back.

or

2) We are so completely opressed by the new evil invaders (played by GMs), that we have no power to do anything anymore and submit with a slave's heart.



Or we die.



EDIT: Note that Thrym is not a citizen of Bane, but he's interested in it because he's kinda got a bit of an "investment" in it, so to speak.
Last edited by Thrym on Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Tanistian_Kanea » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:59 am

the timing of this is indeed bad, however some players seem to take this as a personal insult. however i don't particularly care because my character has no reason to fight and is quite likely to call several people fools and perhaps a few idiots will be identiified... hmm.. who knows...

edit: yeah gm's don't espect a lot of people to take this lying down. i doupt many characters will accept the new rulers. so you will not have any power until new characters are brought ig. but by that time other towns are likely to close their gates to anyone from bane.
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Post by Mr. Cromwell » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:01 am

Calm down guys. I'm sure the staff actually comes to understand that it was a bit stupid for them to expect that TB will just give up like that, and maybe they'll think the whole thing over.

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Post by Alsaya » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:05 am

Alright, as I see this was a mistake and I was a little too focused on the goal, I will take a step back. It is supposed to be fun for you and well, my diplomatic mind failed me (could be explained by the late hours). The prince will come as announced but it is up to you when and if he can claim his land. I think this is a fair compromise for now and I hope that you take the quest serious and not bitter, even though it started now a little rough.

I have to admit it was probably foolish of us to think that you will let us force a gm lead town upon you, as Artimer said earlier to me, it maybe would have been better to go the usual (long) way as any other char - this is too late now roleplaywise, so we'll just change the tactics and leave it up to your characters if Troll's Bane will be gm lead or not.

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Post by Tanistian_Kanea » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:11 am

i'll bet not. anyone willing to take that wager?

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Post by Vern Kron » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:14 am

We already made plans, and you were there for those. Stop bashing everything Tanistain, please. Thank you.


I look forward to doing war with ya.
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Post by Valione » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:14 am

I was actually really looking forward to an all out war. I think that this Prince should stand by his words 8)

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Post by Trollsbane Militia » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:20 am

Alright, nothing is set in stone. There might not even be a war, who knows maybe the government can spark a deal with the Prince and work together. This quest should go on as planned and I'm sure it will create interesting RP for everone.

that is all. *goes to sleep now*

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Post by Olaf Tingvatn » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:42 am

Im all for the GM's taking over trollsbane and throwing an invasion party. stop your whining people. play your character, DO what your character would have done in that given situation. jeebus...like listening to noobs not getting their wishes granted. I will react to an invasion as my character(s) would. Squinty would see this as his past catching up to him, Ram will sigh and say "and i was starting to enjoy a painless day....." Olaf will simply not care. and Turga is an opportunist...so ya can guess where he will be hanging his maces. :twisted: AAAAANYYYYWAAAAYYYYS... Trollsbane, to my observations, have been in chaos for the last..well since wolf and gang roamed the land of Gobaith. what im trying to say is, getting clouded is not the end of your chars life, unless you wish it to be and how annoying it can be, having to loose your "freedom" for a undefined time is not a reason to go haywire and scream at the GM's. you. are. not. invinsible. this is not a fantasy book where the "heroes" allways wins, AND if the GM's wish to try and experiment with running the city of trollsbane themselfs, then i say let them. enjoy it and have fun with this new situation your character(s) find themselfs in. female dog'ing and moaning wont make the GM's decissions change. yes i sound like im brown nosing, noooo i wont care if this new ruler demands that everyone in bane has to pay tax or something. there is allways a way. sure..they say our characters shape this game and drive it forward, but to me it seems trollsbane is in a standstill wil repetitious "the good allways wins" or huddles in the nearest tavern untill the threat is gone. which in turn leads to some good RP.

The only reason i powergame with my orc warrior is in case i should bump into someone who favours their skills before any sort of RP. but, this game will allways have those who favour skills before RolePlaying. *sighs tiredly* you all should be gratefull that the GM's are doing what GM's do when there is a lull in the action. Dont complain..just adjust to the situation like your character(s) would. its not 'that' hard is it?

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Post by Retlak » Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:19 am

Am I the only one here who actually wants the town to be GM-run? I suppose I love seeing changes.

I'm sitting back in my chair with my feet up relaxing. What's going to happen to me if the game changes? Nothing.

-Matt

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Post by Tanistian_Kanea » Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:26 am

i'm not happy. not sad either. so while you remain positive i remain nuetral. how it affects me? not at all.

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Post by Rafael » Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:58 am

Though my stand is not asked, I will give my five cents:

My interest, as a player, is making thos game the more appealing as possible. From the start, this is a hard game to play, lot of powergaming neded to have a decent char and elitism noth from old players as decent RPers to make new players easily confortable. But I know the biggest hazard a game has to attrack new players, or making the game interesting, is the lack of involvement from the staff. Yeah, maybe this will suck, and limitates our liberties, but any change and ivolvement from the staff, specialy when it comes to a place that is so difficult to RP well as it is bane now, I see it as an improve. And be honest, if doesn't work, the GMs will get bores and everything will go back to normal. I suppourt it, and hope this continues it's way.

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Post by Mesha » Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:35 am

I'd like to comment on one thing for now, and one thing only:
The island loses to Salkamarians who are supposed to be the most 'noble' of the groups and would probably think taking land like this is totally disgusting?
The reason we chose Salkamar as the origin of the prince, is for a multitude of reasons.

First of all: Taking lands like that is not an argument. Even though the Salkamarians are an extremely noble race, they still have nobles and kings. They claim lands like any other race, and, as has been true upon Gobaith itself, they do not always cash in their rights to land. At some point in time, Troll's Bane expanded on land which was in fact already theirs. Salkamar can also at any time expand it's borders.

To go on with that in mind: The prince is coming here without quarrel. We have sent emissaries into town, with the simple request to talk with the Troll's Bane nobles, who will remain nobles when the Prince comes, as long as they swear allegiance to him. The notice on the board announces this fact. This, in a sense, means that the Prince as a ruler will just be a sham. A ruler still, but one who listens to his peers before making decisions. The noble system, might I add, has been added to a game by the Cromwellness, and preserves player rule.

Back to the Salkamarians: We chose them because of their description, which I quoted here.

The Salkamaerian way of life means respect, honour, and loyalty. It is a noble one. All children learn reading and writing. Slavery is forbidden by law and a military education is offered to all members of poorer families for free. The Salkamaerian kings and nobles are understand to be representatives of the people and are often wise and good regents. Cities are ruled by male or female lords; males and females have equal rights. The Salkamaerian culture is open to strangers, and without prejudice.
As you can read, the Salkamearian culture is open to strangers, and without prejudice. This, we felt, is necessary to keep the feel of Troll's Bane as a town who accepts any and all races. Since Troll's Bane, as a town which has always been infused by modern ideas by players (Democracy! Freedom! Kids are the future! Eww slaves! Eww overbearing kings who rule us...EWW!), is another reason why we chose Salkamar. Because this aspect of human nature in Illarion (Salkamar, Lightfolk), is for a larger part based on modern concepts.

And now that I got to this point in my story, I do wish to comment on something else:
Now we have order, and you step in, shake the system -again-, and we are expected to deal with it.
You Vern, as well as I, know that order in TB government only lasts about three months. Leaders, as a rule, become inactive after that period of time, resulting in a boring and anarchic town. Our experiment, still in it's infancy, is here to see how true GM-run towns will work. May I remind you, that this game is still in alpha-phase, development-wise, but also community/GM-wise. We are still exploring our options as well. I, in all honesty, have never experienced GM-run towns myself before, not even in other games.

But of course, if any of you has an example game where this is the case, be my guest and point it out for me. It would not hurt to check. :wink:

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Post by Juliana D'cheyne » Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:07 am

But of course, if any of you has an example game where this is the case, be my guest and point it out for me. It would not hurt to check.


Most towns were either GM, dev, or owner run. If not any of those....the rules, guidelines, actions of town leaders were closely monitored ig and ooc. Neat and orderly if that is what people want. Did it discourage independence of thought and RP in the creation and continuation of a town? My chars moved from one town to the other simply for the house style, basically all were about the same with slight variation for RP purposes only. None of my chars knew anything political going on in any town.

There was no public discussion of changes, new rules were simply posted as far as I know. My char had the first "allowed" shady guild of mercenaries/thieves/robbers/kidnappers. Before ANY "job" could be done or attempted my guild HAD to get permission from the town leader and any PO's involved oocly. Most of the time it was practically impossible to get the approval of town leaders even if the PO's seemed willing.
And yes, a GM closely monitored the guild also.

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Post by Mesha » Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:30 am

First of all, thank you Juliana! This gives us good insight.
Most towns were either GM, dev, or owner run. If not any of those....the rules, guidelines, actions of town leaders were closely monitored ig and ooc. Neat and orderly if that is what people want. Did it discourage independence of thought and RP in the creation and continuation of a town? My chars moved from one town to the other simply for the house style, basically all were about the same with slight variation for RP purposes only. None of my chars knew anything political going on in any town.

There was no public discussion of changes, new rules were simply posted as far as I know. My char had the first "allowed" shady guild of mercenaries/thieves/robbers/kidnappers. Before ANY "job" could be done or attempted my guild HAD to get permission from the town leader and any PO's involved oocly. Most of the time it was practically impossible to get the approval of town leaders even if the PO's seemed willing.
And yes, a GM closely monitored the guild also.
I do not think we will go for the same kind of GM-run town as in Grimmwold then. As I pointed out, the nobles of Troll's Bane that exist at this moment will still exist. Players will still have influence, will still be able to become the rulers right hand if you may. The prince is single, he might even need a foreign broad! :wink: I also believe we are more relaxed towards players or rules in general than Grimmwold is (though I could have the wrong image in my mind).
There was no public discussion of changes, new rules were simply posted as far as I know. My char had the first "allowed" shady guild of mercenaries/thieves/robbers/kidnappers. Before ANY "job" could be done or attempted my guild HAD to get permission from the town leader and any PO's involved oocly.
You never need our permission for a "job", unless it involves divine intervention of some sort. It's been this way for a long time. The only one you need permission from is the other PO, so he has space to make a decision for his character. It has been this way for a long time, and will stay this way even after GMs take over TB (for a time perhaps). No need to worry about this.
Most towns were either GM, dev, or owner run. If not any of those....the rules, guidelines, actions of town leaders were closely monitored ig and ooc.
I'm curious what you mean by this. Didn't the rulers of TB from the past closely monitor their own rules either? Or do you mean unfair monitoring? Because that is not our intent. Even though we are technically gods ingame, we cannot allow ourselves to abuse that power when we are ruling a town.

Again, thanks Juliana! This is stuff we can work with. We are still fleshing things out as we speak.

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